French rugby Updates : Le café du Rugby.

vienne86

So there were three away wins this week in the top 14 - Montpellier won in Bordeaux, Clermont thrashed Oyonnax and this evening Toulon won in Paris (against Stade).

iroced

After our no-show in Pau, it's a precious away win for Montpellier, though we've been a bit fortunate that UBB missed (or hit the post) so many kicks towards the end of the game.
We're building a new team. We don't have many internationals involved in the WC (Mas, Ouedraogo, Jannie & Bismarck Du Plessis, Qera) which should help us to settle nicely in this start of the season. It's a very important one for the club. We experienced major changes last year. The team (players & staff) drastically changed. Now the club needs to get back to a calm and serene atsmosphere. So far so good...

Wang King

Murray Kinsella reporting this morning that there are suspicions of doping in Toulon. French media running with the story

total former

Wang King wrote: »

Murray Kinsella reporting this morning that there are suspicions of doping in Toulon. French media running with the story

It's not being treated as a doping investigation, it's that pharmacists in Toulon were not following proper procedures in providing meds.

There is no allegation of doping at all.

vienne86

total former wrote: »

It's not being treated as a doping investigation, it's that pharmacists in Toulon were not following proper procedures in providing meds.

There is no allegation of doping at all.

I would be very very surprised if an outfit like Toulon were to get caught out with a doping scandal.

thomond2006

vienne86 wrote: »

I would be very very surprised if an outfit like Toulon were to get caught out with a doping scandal.

Not being smart, but why?

errlloyd

thomond2006 wrote: »

Not being smart, but why?

(obviously I'm not answering for him)

But it's usually middle of the table teams who get caught out for doping first. They are more desperate and have less resources. Their players are also under a lot more personal pressure. It wouldn't make sense for a team of ageing legends to all suddenly risk their careers by doping.

vienne86

thomond2006 wrote: »

Not being smart, but why?

Too much to lose. They have the resources and don't need to take chances IMO.

shrapnel222

surely, at this stage, no one is naive enough to believe that rugby is a clean sport? doping is so ingrained in the sport, regardless of code or country.

thomond2006

shrapnel222 wrote: »

surely, at this stage, no one is naive enough to believe that rugby is a clean sport? doping is so ingrained in the sport, regardless of code or country.

Welcome Mr. Kimmage!

total former

shrapnel222 wrote: »

surely, at this stage, no one is naive enough to believe that rugby is a clean sport? doping is so ingrained in the sport, regardless of code or country.

No one has said that rugby is a clean sport.

However, it's equally important to note that no-one is accusing Toulon of doping (apart from some lazy tweeting by Murray Kinsella).

scott1974

total former wrote: »

No one has said that rugby is a clean sport.

However, it's equally important to note that no-one is accusing Toulon of doping (apart from some lazy tweeting by Murray Kinsella).

I'm pretty sure Murray is got his story from L'Equipe. I'd be surprised if they were opening an investigation purely based on players getting painkillers without prescription... seems a bit strange...

http://www.lequipe.fr/Rugby/Actualites/Toulon-le-parquet-de-marseille-confirme-l-ouverture-d-une-information-judiciaire/588668

thomond2006

Oh by the way, we've signed Tom Taylor. :pac:

rrpc

scott1974 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure Murray is got his story from L'Equipe. I'd be surprised if they were opening an investigation purely based on players getting painkillers without prescription... seems a bit strange...

http://www.lequipe.fr/Rugby/Actualites/Toulon-le-parquet-de-marseille-confirme-l-ouverture-d-une-information-judiciaire/588668

He initially got it from RTL, then Midol and L'Equipe. RTL led with the doping allegation which now seems to have turned into an investigation into non-compliance with the code of public health with regard to the supply of drugs.

The French anti-doping authority passed the info on to the public prosecutor's office, so that looks like they had nothing to investigate but that a criminal investigation might be warranted.

Doesn't look like a Rugby story really.

total former

rrpc wrote: »

He initially got it from RTL, then Midol and L'Equipe. RTL led with the doping allegation which now seems to have turned into an investigation into non-compliance with the code of public health with regard to the supply of drugs.

The French anti-doping authority passed the info on to the public prosecutor's office, so that looks like they had nothing to investigate but that a criminal investigation might be warranted.

Doesn't look like a Rugby story really.

That's exactly it. If Kinsella just repeats the first headline he sees without bothering to read it, then that's lazy and irresponsible, if he wants to consider himself a proper journalist.

EDIT: his colleagues at the worst sports website in Ireland are now running this on their website as "doping allegations", even though the body of the text makes it clear that there are no doping allegations at all.

iroced

total former wrote: »

EDIT: his colleagues at the worst sports website in Ireland are now running this on their website as "doping allegations", even though the body of the text makes it clear that there are no doping allegations at all.

The unlimited power of rumour over truth :rolleyes:...

Next one could very well be "how Toulon fooled everyone and robbed its successes with doping".

We already had episode 1 "how Toulon bought its sucess" :rolleyes:...

rrpc

Apparently RTL are sticking to their story:

iroced

rrpc wrote: »

Apparently RTL are sticking to their story:

Nothing in this article suggests any doping. The list of drugs they cite (the ones the chemists would have provided to RCT players) are not banned as far as I know.

The last paragraph makes no sense. They talk about infractions related to doping but as I said the drugs they cite are not afaik. They even add it is organised doping? Based on which facts? But they do say we have to be careful now because the judge in charge of the investigation related to the chemists' fraud made no arrest yet. So basically they/we know nothing. Unless they have other pieces of information that they can't make public yet (but they don't say so). And they finish this gibberish by stating it is a doping affair despite what Boudjelal said.

I'm not here to defend Toulon and I'm not naive about doping in professional sports but if this is journalism I must be the president of the republic :rolleyes:...

I'm gonna be cynical but considering Laporte is on for FFR presidency, could this be a "political" manoeuvre against him?

rrpc

iroced wrote: »

Nothing in this article suggests any doping. The list of drugs they cite (the ones the chemists would have provided to RCT players) are not banned as far as I know.

Well without knowing the specifics I couldn't say for sure about some of them but asthma inhalers and growth hormones are definitely banned.

iroced wrote: »

I'm not here to defend Toulon and I'm not naive about doping in professional sports but if this is journalism I must be the president of the republic :rolleyes:...

I'm gonna be cynical but considering Laporte is on for FFR presidency, could this be a "political" manoeuvre against him?

That's what Boudjellal said

The thing about this kind of journalism is that it's a bit like an iceberg: 90% of it isn't visible. To publish something like this, you need to be very sure of your facts and have a lot more besides.

Unless French libel laws are a lot less restrictive than ours.

vienne86

Which channel are Top 14 matches generally shown on in France?

iroced

rrpc wrote: »

Well without knowing the specifics I couldn't say for sure about some of them but asthma inhalers and growth hormones are definitely banned.

I think asthma inhalers can be used if the player suffers from asthma. And it seems very common to suffer from asthma when you're a professional sportsman :rolleyes:... Cyclists can (and their doping regulations are the most rigorous, particularly since they introduced the biological passport) so I doubt rugby players can't.
You're right about growth hormone though. I think they are tolerated at a younger age if needed (Messi would not be Messi otherwise ) but it's clearly not the case at RCT.

rrpc wrote: »

That's what Boudjellal said

I heard it on a radio debate .

rrpc wrote: »

The thing about this kind of journalism is that it's a bit like an iceberg: 90% of it isn't visible. To publish something like this, you need to be very sure of your facts and have a lot more besides.

I know that. That's why I pointed out that the last paragraph was deliberate sensationalistic gibberish. They give nothing away but they don't forget to mention the big word "doping".
People are guilty too. If the word "doping" was not part of the article no one would have read it.
I would not be so sure about your second sentence. The simple fact growth hormone was cited would be enough for them to keep their claim and get away with it even if they're dismissed. And anyway, they talk about doping suspicions. So the word "suspicion" in itself will cover them for libel.

rrpc wrote: »

Unless French libel laws are a lot less restrictive than ours.

It's not. But then, with these apparently not serious and solid enough methods, instead of having a real deep debate about doping and medical enhancement in professional sport (where to put the limit? What can be done to medically supervise the players without crossing the line? What sport do we want in the end? etc...), we end up with a succession of lawsuits and counterlawsuits (e.g. Bénézech & Ballester "affairs"): libel for the accusers, illegal practsing for the accused. It lasts for months, you have winners and losers on both sides and in the end it's a big mess and we don't have the real debate about doping.

iroced

vienne86 wrote: »

Which channel are Top 14 matches generally shown on in France?

Canal + (encrypted channel).

rrpc

iroced wrote: »

I think asthma inhalers can be used if the player suffers from asthma. And it seems very common to suffer from asthma when you're a professional sportsman :rolleyes:... Cyclists can (and their doping regulations are the most rigorous, particularly since they introduced the biological passport) so I doubt rugby players can't.

There isn't a differentiation between sports on banned substances. If it's banned for one, it's banned for all. The only differences are therapeutic use exemptions and what's allowed in or out of competition. Even TUEs can be banned of in-competition depending on the drug.

iroced wrote: »

You're right about growth hormone though. I think they are tolerated at a younger age if needed (Messi would not be Messi otherwise ) but it's clearly not the case at RCT.

Growth hormones and steroids (not surprisingly) are the most frequently detected banned substances amongst rugby players. But you also get masking agents which in themselves are not any benefit but conceal other substances. The real problem is the testing regimes. The number of tests carried out are far too few. A player could go more than a year between tests which clearly is not a deterrent to using banned substances. As an example, the RFU carried out a total of 138 tests between January and March this year.

iroced wrote: »

It's not. But then, with these apparently not serious and solid enough methods, instead of having a real deep debate about doping and medical enhancement in professional sport (where to put the limit? What can be done to medically supervise the players without crossing the line? What sport do we want in the end? etc...), we end up with a succession of lawsuits and counterlawsuits (e.g. Bénézech & Ballester "affairs"): libel for the accusers, illegal practsing for the accused. It lasts for months, you have winners and losers on both sides and in the end it's a big mess and we don't have the real debate about doping.

The simple answer is to carry out more tests. I'm not sure how many Rugby players the RFU represent, but it must be in the many hundreds if not thousands (I'm just thinking of professional and semi-professional players here) and the number of tests they carry out per quarter is not nearly enough and tails off dramatically after the season ends.

In the same period I mentioned above between the RFU and the WRU, 5 violations were found from 256 tests.

rrpc

These are the drugs that have been found in UK based rugby players in the six months to June this year:

Oxandrolone - Anabolic Steroid
Nandrolone - Anabolic Steroid
Clomiphene - Used to help combat side effects of steroid use and increase testosterone levels (primarily used for female infertility).
Drostanolone - Anabolic Steroid
Desoxymethyltestosterone - 'Designer' Anabolic Steroid. (never used for therapies).
Dehydrochloromethyltestosterone - Anabolic Steroid.
Cocaine -

aimee1

Indo reporting EOS on his way out of biarritz

phog

aimee1 wrote: »

Indo reporting EOS on his way out of biarritz

Was he offered a role with Munster or did he accept the Biatprritz job before Munster had decided on who their backs coach would be?

Could he be offered the Backs cvoach at Leinster?

Here's the link to the Indo story

rrpc

phog wrote: »

Was he offered a role with Munster or did he accept the Biatprritz job before Munster had decided on who their backs coach would be?

Could he be offered the Backs cvoach at Leinster?

Here's the link to the Indo story

That's a pity. They finished mid-table last season but this season has been disastrous so far with three losses from three. It's a far cry from their heady days of competing in the HEC.

I doubt Leinster would want him, he needed to re-establish himself as a coach with something to offer and it hasn't exactly been stellar for him with Biarritz.

phog

rrpc wrote: »

That's a pity. They finished mid-table last season but this season has been disastrous so far with three losses from three. It's a far cry from their heady days of competing in the HEC.

I doubt Leinster would want him, he needed to re-establish himself as a coach with something to offer and it hasn't exactly been stellar for him with Biarritz.

I still think he's a good backs coach. According to the Indo, Biarritz decided his coaching ticket for him which might have hampered him and the club.

rrpc

phog wrote: »

I still think he's a good backs coach. According to the Indo, Biarritz decided his coaching ticket for him which might have hampered him and the club.

It may well have had an effect, however their early season record last year was much better than this year. Last year they won two out of three (both were home games) whereas they've lost both their home games this season.

iroced

Biarritz is such a perfect example of managerial suicide / incompetence at top professional sports level. And Blanco abandoning ship was the icing on the cake. Tells a lot about the man. And then we are surprised he's making zero impact with Les Bleus? Pfff... Such a puppet!

It's absolutely crazy the complete lack of anticipation/preparatioon for the post Yachvilli/Harinordoquy era at the club :eek:! It's like they felt these guys were gonna compete up to 50 years old :rolleyes:!
And their only answer was the whole fusion nonsense :rolleyes:. Nothing about developping their academy. Nothing about reinforcing their recruitment staff. Nothing about what kind of project for the club and with which coach. Nothing about the playstyle they wanted to implement. Well nothing about rugby in the end. Only gibberish about the impossible merging. Pathetical for such a historical rugby place in France ...

thomond2006

Biarritz could languish in ProD2 for a long time. There's always going to be big name clubs trying to get back up to the Top14.

pickarooney

Biarritz are an absolute shambles. They managed to lose 22-11 to a frankly awful Aix side tonight despite mincing them at every scrum. Paralysed by fear and completely bereft of anything approaching an attacking plan, a lot of sides in Fed1 would fancy their chances. They'd be happy to languish in ProD2 at this rate.

rrpc

An interesting article by Vincent Hogan on the shambles that is Biarritz in the Indo today:

On the opening day of the ProD2 season in France last month, Eddie O'Sullivan went to work with a pauper's tools.

The Biarritz Olympique bench carried five front-row forwards, leaving Jeremy Davidson, coach of their opponents, Aurillac, bemused. He noted that O'Sullivan had no cover for second-row or back-row and that he was fielding an academy player at No 10.

Bernard Jackman believes the move to isolate his former Irish boss is an attempt to scapegoat him for a club in crisis.

"The feedback about Eddie from the players is very, very positive. The level of expertise is beyond anything that they've had before. The issue is that he
hasn't got the resources.

"They have massive financial difficulties - they just about got enough money together to get their licence for this season and they haven't been able to
replace guys at all."

"I think Eddie did a good job last year to get them even near the play-offs given the disruption that was there" said Jackman. "He's just on a hiding to
nothing. We've got three ex-Biarritz players here at Grenoble, they know what's going on there. He's been horrendously badly treated."

Apparently the squad is just 26 players which if true is absolutely ridiculous.

CatFromHue

There's only 29 listed on Wikipedia anyway compared to 45 for Perpignan and 37 for Mountauban.

thomond2006

CatFromHue wrote: »

There's only 29 listed on Wikipedia anyway compared to 45 for Perpignan and 37 for Mountauban.

26 senior players and 11 espoirs on their site: http://www.bo-pb.com/index.php/Equipe/Equipe-15-16/199

pickarooney

O'Sullivan wasn't even at the match last night. Only the forwards coach made the trip.

Davidson is having a fantastic season so far. Aurillac have no money but they know how to stretch a euro.

vienne86

La Rochelle 3-17 up in the Mayol. Controversial penalty try followed by another lovely try after some lovely handling. Poor defence from Toulon, but only 21 minutes gone.

sullivlo

vienne86 wrote: »

La Rochelle 3-17 up in the Mayol. Controversial penalty try followed by another lovely try after some lovely handling. Poor defence from Toulon, but only 21 minutes gone.

Toulon just scored. Nobody tried to catch him.

Dave_The_Sheep

All level now, sadly.

[edit] And now Toulon ahead with another try. 21 points without reply.

vienne86

Half time 24-17, and La Rochelle have a man in the bin.

rrpc

pickarooney wrote: »

O'Sullivan wasn't even at the match last night. Only the forwards coach made the trip.

Davidson is having a fantastic season so far. Aurillac have no money but they know how to stretch a euro.

From that piece in the Indo:

The third of those games, a 20-9 home defeat to Albi last Friday triggered a furious dressing-room outburst from new president Nicolas Brusque.

And it was Brusque (39) who, reputedly, phoned O'Sullivan on Wednesday night, telling him to stay off the bus for last night's game against bottom-of-the-table Pays D'Aix.

Highly dysfunctional operation. Crazy stuff.

vienne86

All home wins last night and today except for......Clermont, who were held to a draw by Bordeaux.

vienne86

vienne86 wrote: »

All home wins last night and today except for......Clermont, who were held to a draw by Bordeaux.

In fact, all home wins this weekend.......yawn! Pau managed 9-6 against Toulouse.

iroced

It was a pretty good rugby GW in top14. Loads of attacking rugby, loads of tries. Good before the 5 weeks WC break and the pain of watching & following our dull French team...

Are SF on for a Castres-like season? 1 win in 4 games. Currently last and a tough run of fixtures to come (Castres H, Racing A & Clermont H in the next 4 And Agen A won't be a walkover).


As for Montpellier, I'm quite pleased by the way we won. Hopefully our attacking rugby style will be back this year. It's a good start. Now let's try and build upon it. We don't have many players at the WC, let's take advantage of it!

vienne86

iroced wrote: »

It was a pretty good rugby GW in top14. Loads of attacking rugby, loads of tries. Good before the 5 weeks WC break and the pain of watching & following our dull French team...

Are SF on for a Castres-like season? 1 win in 4 games. Currently last and a tough run of fixtures to come (Castres H, Racing A & Clermont H in the next 4 And Agen A won't be a walkover).


As for Montpellier, I'm quite pleased by the way we won. Hopefully our attacking rugby style will be back this year. It's a good start. Now let's try and build upon it. We don't have many players at the WC, let's take advantage of it!

I'm wondering what is wrong in Stade Francais.......they were just great at the end of last season, so this start is hard to credit.

iroced

vienne86 wrote: »

I'm wondering what is wrong in Stade Francais.......they were just great at the end of last season, so this start is hard to credit.

I don't know. It's still early days though. But they will have to negotiate well the next 4 games.

I think they don't have their full squad yet. They also have to deal with this new pressure (defending champion) they were not that much used to for most of their team.

After the next 4 games, we should have a good indication of how their season will shape up...

pickarooney

The proD2 is back and Biarritz have lost again. At home. On the bright side it was to Lyon and only by three points.

nc6000

pickarooney wrote: »

The proD2 is back and Biarritz have lost again. At home. On the bright side it was to Lyon and only by three points.

What's the situation with Eddie O'Sullivan? Is he still there? I know there was talk a while back of him being sacked but not sure how it turned out.

rrpc

nc6000 wrote: »

What's the situation with Eddie O'Sullivan? Is he still there? I know there was talk a while back of him being sacked but not sure how it turned out.

Eddie is still there, but they've brought in David Darricarere as a 'consultant' to 'reinforce the staff and carry out an audit on the club' until the end of the season...

"This audit is done to change an organization and find an agreed way to achieve the desired objectives."

:rolleyes:

iroced

Montpellier up to second after a convincing away win in Grenoble yesterday (just one try shy of the TBP).

I said before the RWC that we should take advantage of it since we had very few players involved in it. So far so good . 2 away wins (out of 3 games) already which is as good as the entire last season.

Clermont, Toulouse (both at home) & Toulon (away) are our next 3 games. We'll see what we're worth.

Allez les Cistes !