Customs road block at Burnfoot

waffleman

waffleman wrote: »

Just because VRT "is the law" doesnt give make it right for these customs gaboons to be throwing people out of their cars and escorting people to bank machines.

Stekelly wrote: »

But yet it give speopel the right to drive aroudn in breach of the law?

waffleman wrote: »

Did I say that? No I didn't so take your incorrect statement/question + smiley somewhere else.

What I will say is customs officials should not be stopping people on their way to work in the morning or mothers dropping their kids off at school and confiscating their vehicles on the spot.

Stekelly wrote: »

How is that different to what I said?

Ok maybe I should have said it like this:

I don't agree with VRT but if you're going to chase people for it it should be enforced in a different way. how to do it is another matter - get the customs to earn their corn and figure it out but not by harassing people, calling them bull****ters and taking their cars from them on their way to work and school etc.

Essexboy

nipplenuts wrote: »

Do you feel sorry for him?

I don't. If I was in charge he'd get jail for tax evasion until the VRT was paid also.

Do you feel this way about all lawbreakers? or just those who avoid VRT?

Guy:Incognito

waffleman wrote: »

Ok maybe I should have said it like this:

I don't agree with VRT but if you're going to chase people for it it should be enforced in a different way. how to do it is another matter - get the customs to earn their corn and figure it out but not by harassing people, calling them bull****ters and taking their cars from them on their way to work and school etc.

Why should they not take their cars from them on the way to work or school? If thats when they catch them breaking the law the so be it. Again, the law doesnt only apply when it's convenient.

Maybe being left to walk home will help wth future compliance.

Graces7

Does anyone actually know the extent of this tax evasion? ie the amount annually?

Also wondering how the customs men "could" handle it more politely given the amount of aggro expressed here.

And how else they could get the money; given that the evasion is against the law in the first place?

It is not a job I would like to be doing..

Buncrana

This is actually an illegal tax that the Irish Government and Customs are charging, apparently the fines they receive form the EU are actually less than what they make from ripping both Northern & Southern people off.

I have been warned already because I too also drive a northern car, but I also have a full legal southern registered car, I am trying to move back to the North for personal reasons, I told them this at the roadside and the response was, NOT MY PROBLEM......

I probably would have no problem paying the VRT if they priced it accordingly, it will cost me €3300 for a 2000 BMW which the Irish Government reckon is worth €9800 but in reality it is worth €3000 at the most.

The VRT/VAT/TAX whatever you want to call it is actually paid on a car when bought new, this is a wee do lally scheme the government are running to get more fat pricks richer down in Dublin while the rest of the country suffer.

Also here is a talking point for all..... how many born and bred southern residents are driving Northern reg vehicles because the cant afford the scandalous tax and insurance prices, I can guarantee it is more than the Northern people. I know for fact of an ex Gardai doing this.....

If stopped: "be courtious, smile, be as polite as possible, while talking out a two inch gap in the window with all the doors locked, then just sit there until they get fed up"

Guy:Incognito

Buncrana wrote: »

This is actually an illegal tax that the Irish Government and Customs are charging, apparently the fines they receive form the EU are actually less than what they make from ripping both Northern & Southern people off.

No it's not illegal and there are no fines.

Mr. Presentable

Buncrana wrote: »

This is actually an illegal tax that the Irish Government and Customs are charging, apparently the fines they receive form the EU "

Prove it. Back that statement up with factual reference. Go on, try.

Buncrana

When buying a new car in Ireland, the VRT is normally included in the price of the vehicles. Motor dealers are responsible for collecting the tax and registering the vehicle with the Revenue Commissioners before selling it on to consumers. On buying a new car from a dealership, the registration plates should already be fitted onto the vehicle before you drive it off the lot.
How does this affect me?
When importing a new or second-hand car from another EU member states, the owner must register it and pay VRT before the end of the next working day of its arrival in Ireland. If the vehicle is new, being less than six months old, Value Added Tax (VAT) is also chargeable at 21%. This VAT is payable even if there is evidence that VAT was paid in the country of purchase.
When importing a new or second-hand car from non-EU countries, VAT is chargeable at importation, as is Customs Common Tariff (CCT).
Added pressure
This current form of taxation has come under pressure from a number of areas. The fact that both VAT and VRT are charged on newly registered vehicles in Ireland has been the bone of much contention, both locally and at a European level. The European Commissioner for Customs and Excise has expressed concerns to the Irish Government, over the VRT on new and second-hand imported vehicles, commenting on the excessive levels of motor taxation on Irish citizens. Article 25 of the Treaty of Rome, which governs the European Union, prohibits customs and excise duties and charges having equivalent effect.

Ireland joined the European Union (then known as the European Economic Community) in 1973. On doing so, our Government agreed that EU law would supersede our own constitutional law. Therefore, it agreed that Article 25 was applicable to us. This article calls for the free movement of goods between member states. Some believe that the implementation of VRT is against Article 25, and therefore illegal and an infringement of our European rights. Trade between member states should be conducted in a single open market, where borders and customs duties do not exist. Some believe that VRT is just a customs duty under a different name.

VRT is also seen as a double tax by some, as it is charged over and above the standard rate of 21% VAT. On cars that are imported into the country from other member states, the owner may incur the cost of two VAT charges; one in the country of origin and another on arriving into Ireland. The implementation of both taxes creates an expensive motor market in the country.

The current VRT system has also come under criticism from those in favour of climate change measures. A number of EU member states have converted their motor tax system to a carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions-based model, and demands have been made for the same to transpire in Ireland. Under Kyoto Protocols (Also here), Ireland must reduce its CO2 emissions to a 13% rise by 2012. The European Commission has called on our Government to introduce further CO2 cutting measures to reduce our national emission. According to a report published by the European Environment Agency (EEA), the Irish transport sector has been emitting nearly six times the European average in greenhouse gas emissions since 1990. A 20% rise in the volume of passenger vehicles on Irish roads has lead to this increase.

These reasons compounded to stir change within Government ranks, and from 1st July 2008, Ireland will implement a new system of Vehicle Registration Tax that is based on the amount of CO2 a vehicle emits.

Guy:Incognito

"some believe" is proof now?

This link helpfully provided by Eoin where the EU specifically say its legal however, is proof.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2004_2009/documents/cm/536/536456/536456en.pdf



"'A.- The facts.
The petitioner considers that it hinders the free movement of goods across the EU that taxes for the acquisition of vehicles differ according to countries. She further alleges double taxation in Portugal, given that where a car is bought in this country, VAT plus a special tax, the Vehicle Registration Tax
(VRT) have to be paid. This VRT has to be paid also if a car bought abroad is imported into Portugal.
B. - Legal analysis.
1. It must be said, from the outset, that the VRT is a registration tax in force in Portugal and that, at the present stage of Community Law, Member States have the right to levy such registration taxes on cars.
There is no harmonization on this matter and this means that, provided they respect the basic principles of Community legislation, Member States remain free to apply this kind of tax to motor cars
PE 346.807 2/2 CM\536456EN.doc
EN
on the occasion of their first entry into use within their territory and to settle the tax rates at the level they see fit. The majority of Member States (ten Member States, Portugal being one of them) in fact apply those taxes. "

M three

we all know what vrt is. Cars are cheaper in the uk, even new ones. as we signed up to a so called free market irish citizens should be able to buy a car in the uk, and drive it here, provided they have it insured and pay road tax.
however....
that would force motor dealerships here uce their profit and sell cars for prices comparable to the uk. And if you think motor dealers here dont make excessive profit tell me how they pay for those glass showrooms that cost 10 million??
so the lobby group of the motor industry here ( SIMI ) have insisted that the government here introduce an extra tax on all cars that are brought in from the uk.
now we all know what lobby groups have done in the past to get things done - they bribe politicians.

its just another example of the irish government screwing irish citizens to protect a bunch of powerful people.

Joe 90

When I was young and innocent and liveing in Donegal I really believe the the EU, or rather the EEC as it was sold to us, would be the end of the hassel of customes. I looked forward to the day when ex customs men would be begging in the streets. Its all gone wrong.

ShowMeTheCash

Stekelly wrote: »

To be honest, I dont care where they buy their cars or anythign else. But if they choose to break the law they have no comback when caught. Whinging and moaning with sob stories about the poor kids don't wash.

The story in the paper was of a woman who lived in Derry but was down taking care of her sick mother, she was told by customs to stop bulls**ting.

If I moved back to Donegal I will change the car over, but as I work and live in Belfast Mon - Fri my car will remain registered here.

The point I am making there are a lot of people that move back and forward a lot like me, I have been stopped twice and had to go to letterkenny and prove my situation.
I am being told I am a liar and guilty until I prove otherwise.

The woman that was told to stop bulls**ting I fully believe this happened, as I was met with the same distain from customs officers.

There is no excuse for customs officers to be heavy handed and thick towards the public - Having a Northern Reg car does not make you a criminal!!

muffler

I am open to correction on this but customs officials, like Gardai, are required to carry a ID/badge number which must be visible and possibly given upon request. They also have a code of conduct under which they are obliged to carry out their duties.

Once you have that you then go and make a official complaint.

ShowMeTheCash

muffler wrote: »

I am open to correction on this but customs officials, like Gardai, are required to carry a ID/badge number which must be visible and possibly given upon request. They also have a code of conduct under which they are obliged to carry out their duties.

Once you have that you then go and make a official complaint.

You put a complaint in against a Gardai or a customs officer lets see how far you get with it.
Donegal is a county where to put people in prison with fabricated evidence.
At the end of the day, unless you have some really hard evidence of abuse i.e. caught on tape, it is their word against yours.

And if you are from a small town is it really worth you're while?

muffler

I think the McBrearty/Morris Tribunal put an end to a lot of that.

ShowMeTheCash

muffler wrote: »

I think the McBrearty/Morris Tribunal put an end to a lot of that.

LOL yeah the world is now a happy place where corruption does not exist!

And what is you're point?

The report in the paper stated that a female driver who lived in Derry and was down visiting her mother in donegal claimed that a Customs officer told her to stop bullsh**ting, is this acceptable behaviour?
Do you actually think if she made a complaint anything would actually come of it?

You think the Customs officer who talks to people with total disregard would have stood up and said, OK you got me?

On a night out in Buncranna I know a guy that was arrested for challenging a Gardai, gardai told him to go home, he said he couldn't cause he was waiting on a taxi, the walk would have been 27 miles - the gardai then went right into his face and said "you think you're funny" friend tried to walk away the gardai more or less body checked him, friend ask "what do you want me to do? walk through you?" at which point he was arrested.
Drunk and disorderly and failiure to cooperate with gardai instruction.

As it happened I turn to the other Gardai who actually seemed a bit shocked at his fellow officer and said "Come on now, you know that was not fair" he turned to me and asked did I want to join him.

So my faith in the Gardai not quite as suger coated as you'rs.

My last point, I know many good gardai which is why this kind of behaviour should not be tolerated all it takes is a few cowboys for people to lose respect for the entire institution.



he asked for his name and badge number

Pique

Power corrupts.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Graces7

ShowMeTheCash wrote: »

LOL yeah the world is now a happy place where corruption does not exist!

And what is you're point?

The report in the paper stated that a female driver who lived in Derry and was down visiting her mother in donegal claimed that a Customs officer told her to stop bullsh**ting, is this acceptable behaviour?
Do you actually think if she made a complaint anything would actually come of it?

You think the Customs officer who talks to people with total disregard would have stood up and said, OK you got me?

On a night out in Buncranna I know a guy that was arrested for challenging a Gardai, gardai told him to go home, he said he couldn't cause he was waiting on a taxi, the walk would have been 27 miles - the gardai then went right into his face and said "you think you're funny" friend tried to walk away the gardai more or less body checked him, friend ask "what do you want me to do? walk through you?" at which point he was arrested.
Drunk and disorderly and failiure to cooperate with gardai instruction.

As it happened I turn to the other Gardai who actually seemed a bit shocked at his fellow officer and said "Come on now, you know that was not fair" he turned to me and asked did I want to join him.

So my faith in the Gardai not quite as suger coated as you'rs.

My last point, I know many good gardai which is why this kind of behaviour should not be tolerated all it takes is a few cowboys for people to lose respect for the entire institution.



he asked for his name and badge number

While having few illusions re the Gardai, when i read these scenarios, see only one side of the conversation...

Guy:Incognito

Graces7 wrote: »

While having few illusions re the Gardai, when i read these scenarios, see only one side of the conversation...

Exactly. maybe I'm just really lucky, but I've never had an issue with the Gards. Most recently I was driving my van with tax out by just over 2 months. They were going the opposite direction and it obviously fashed up on the ANPR cos they dd a U-turn and came after me. I had been out of work after I brok emy finger playing rugby. I was polite, explained the situation , said I was taxing it that week and all was well. The two guys were grand and sent me on my way.

Graces7

Stekelly wrote: »

Exactly. maybe I'm just really lucky, but I've never had an issue with the Gards. Most recently I was driving my van with tax out by just over 2 months. They were going the opposite direction and it obviously fashed up on the ANPR cos they dd a U-turn and came after me. I had been out of work after I brok emy finger playing rugby. I was polite, explained the situation , said I was taxing it that week and all was well. The two guys were grand and sent me on my way.

Yes; I have had that kind of thing happen also.

But the occasional less happy incident, and is it not true that it is these we tend to rememeber, not all the pleasant ones..

A man came to our stall one day; we set up opposite the Garda Station.

He was distressed, and his speech was slurred, but I smelled no drink on him.. more like drugs?

He was seeking money to pay his fare to get to Letterkenny to hospital, and I believed him. So of course I suggested he asked the Gardai. He had already been over there he said and they had thrown him out, and then I rememberd I had seen that. He was clean and neatly dressed; not a drunk as they usually present.

He got more distressed, then lifted his t-shirt, to show a chest and arms literally covered in self-inflicted scars. Not a scrap of flesh left uncut; his neck also.

He threatened to start cutting himself again; there were children around. So I asked a lady to watch the stall and let him over the road.
( I got told off later as clearly he must have had a knife ot be saying that; just did not think is all)

A Garda who came out, grabbed him by the shirt and pulled him around,. and, without thinking, I said, "please don't rough him up."

Indignation erupted.." We are not in the habt of roughing people up.."

I tried to back pedal, and at least got them to take the man inside, and later saw them lead him ( very carefully, looking across at me!)into the paddy wagon and drive him off.

Then the head honcho came over and tore me off a strip of course.. threatened to eject me from the stall.... and said, very self-righteously, that the man was now in a cell, "sleeping off his DRUNKENNESS."
"You do our job and let us do ours."

I still aver the man was not drunk and he was clearly mentally ill. I never got the chance to explain of course.

After that I got a cell phone just for emergency use... So in future I can just make a 999 call...

Not like the Garda who one Easter night at a road block pulled me over; his breath almost knocked me out of the car.... High spirits.. :eek:

BUT these are the only bad occasions in many other encounters where there has been kindness and courtesy..

Essexboy

What will happen when VRT collection is privatised? Who will man the roadblocks then?

http://www.derryjournal.com/inishowen/Rage-still-there-as-Customs.6256018.jp

This was news to me.

furtzy

Essexboy wrote: »

What will happen when VRT collection is privatised? Who will man the roadblocks then?

http://www.derryjournal.com/inishowen/Rage-still-there-as-Customs.6256018.jp

This was news to me.

VRT calculation along with obligatory NCTing of all imports will in future be handled by Applus. Enforcement i.e the manning of roadblocks etc will continue to be the remit of Customs

muffler

Alright then lads and lassies. You know the topic, you (should) know the rules and again I have to say that Im very disappointed that this has gone off topic again.

If you wish to debate VRT then go to the motoring or politics forum.

This thread is about a customs checkpoint and how those officials conducted themselves.

theboss80

This isnt about Burnfoot but Customs are in Buncrana today and seemingly tried to removed a woman and kids from a NI reg car in carpark they were scoping out that had numerous yellow regs in. she refused and locked her doors. still parked up thereTheres actually a link for a live stream looking onto car park
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/inishowen---lough-swilly

I didnt see it when it happened but my gf did.

If too off topic you can remove Muffler

Mr_A

theboss80 wrote: »

This isnt about Burnfoot but Customs are in Buncrana today and seemingly tried to removed a woman and kids from a NI reg car in carpark they were scoping out that had numerous yellow regs in. she refused and locked her doors. still parked up thereTheres actually a link for a live stream looking onto car park
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/inishowen---lough-swilly

I didnt see it when it happened but my gf did.

If too off topic you can remove Muffler

Did she come out yet?

Mr. Presentable

theboss80 wrote: »

This isnt about Burnfoot but Customs are in Buncrana today and seemingly tried to removed a woman and kids from a NI reg car in carpark they were scoping out that had numerous yellow regs in. she refused and locked her doors. still parked up thereTheres actually a link for a live stream looking onto car park
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/inishowen---lough-swilly

I didnt see it when it happened but my gf did.

If too off topic you can remove Muffler

Excellent. They lifted it from her house this morning

Mr_A

Inishowen News Coverage: http://www.inishowennews.com/06VRTStandOff0477.htm

Some garbage spouted there by the relentlessly populist Councillor McLochlainn.

ryanstewart

nipplenuts wrote: »

Excellent. They lifted it from her house this morning

Oh yeah...celebrations all round - if you'd seen what happened, you'd ahve a different attitude - cop yourself on

Lando Griffin

Well done everyone involved, ye could have smashed her window in and arrested her for obstructing a Member of the Gardi or customs.

Mr. Presentable

ryanstewart wrote: »

Oh yeah...celebrations all round - if you'd seen what happened, you'd ahve a different attitude - cop yourself on

I did see what happened, but thanks for the advice.