different levels of devotion...

the_dark_side

I have had a few thoughts on levels of devotion versus entrance into Heaven.... and my thoughts are in no way intended to offend,

Example 1. Man or woman who attends mass every day, says a few decades of the Rosary in the evening, gives over a generous envelope on Sunday. Obeys the Chruches teachings to the very letter of the law.

Example 2. Person who goes to mass every Sunday, sits towards the back maybe, says the odd prayer, gives the ocassional few quid so as not to be seen as mean, doesn't really bother with confessions, and doesn't have that much of an opinion regarding anything controversial or political that may surface from within the church.

Example 3. Person who goes maybe twice a year, (weddings, Christmas), doesn't give money, and will mumble an Our Father if the plane hits turbulance... otherwise, is a good living person, a generous person, was raised a Christian but now slighlty lapsed, but still likes to believe to a certain degree but who is very unsure about alot of what the church has been teaching...this person may feel that it is better than having no belief?

My question is this......
Does God have higher places in Heaven for people who have said more prayers, those who have given more money and those who attended church more often?

Is there a queue at the gate and those of us who have said 10,000 more Hail Marys are towards the front, and us who may have stopped attending mass regularly have to spend 'a while' in Purgatory.... (how long is a while in a place where time may not really exist?) and when we get out, and are let into Heaven, sure arent we as well off as all those who have knelt in a cold chapel for countless hours repeating verse after verse for fifty odd years?

Will God disregard those of us who have lived a good life, but may not have come running to the church every Sunday, and who may have stopped going to confession altogether, and who quite simply can't see the good in handing money over to the church....
Reagardless of how pious a life you may have led compared to the next person, when we get to Heaven.....once we're in we're in? Am I right?

PDN

I would say none of them are guaranteed entry to heaven. In fact, our good works and religiosity can sometimes be a stumbling block because we could trust in them rather than in God's grace.

The Bible does indicate that greater rewards will be given to some believers rather than others - but I would guess this has much more to do with helping the poor and showing justice than how much time you spent praying.

JimiTime

I think there is a general misconception about prayer, and worship.

Prayer is not for God, but rather for ourselves. When Jesus was asked how to worship, he said, 'Look after widows and orphans'.

The general misconception about prayer and worship is that its like God 'feeds' on it or something. It leads some to the ignorant ramblings of 'What an egotistical being needing worship etc'. Unfortunately, they get this impression because not only are they purposefully ignorant, but Christians and Christian religions are not clear on the worship matter. Questions like 'where do you worship' are answered by, 'Oh St.Marks church' etc. People get the impression that God wants people on their faces going, 'we aren't worthy, you are great, please don't stick hot pokers in me'. The truth is, Worship takes place 'everywhere'. In the work you do, the people you help etc etc. The Good Samaritan is a great example.

Its simple, follow Christs example. Hint, Christ didn't sit down the back of a church and say 2000 prayers a day.

the_dark_side

yes, and hence the question... do you pray to save your soul, or do you pray because you love God?
And Im afraid that when I was a kid at school, the priest would tell us that we wouldn't get into Heaven etc. unless we said X amount of prayers.... and when we went to confession, we weighed up our list of 'sins' with the penance that we had been given, and compared each others amounts when we came out, a bit like 'how much confirmation money did you get?'
I think that the teachings of the church back then created a (for want of a better expression) 'me fein' attitude amongst young people that followed them into adulthood. Im alright Jack, Im looking after myself by saying all these Hail Marys and Our Fathers, its not going to be me left outside the pearly gates.

Whereas the non Catholic faiths believe that salvation can be achieved in this life through hard work... and this belief forms the backbone of countries like Denmark, Holland, Scotland, Scandinavia etc. Im on to a different topic here, but you get my general drift....

PDN

the_dark_side wrote: »

Whereas the non Catholic faiths believe that salvation can be achieved in this life through hard work... and this belief forms the backbone of countries like Denmark, Holland, Scotland, Scandinavia etc. Im on to a different topic here, but you get my general drift....

Actually they don't believe anything of the kind.

They believe salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ. Then, as a result of that salvation, they believe they should live in a way that is productive and useful.

the_dark_side

ok, the last part was a bit of a sweeping statement, and took the spotlight off what my original point was....

do people pray to save their soul, or because they love God? I have a feeling that many people pray becasue through fear, fear of what might happen if they didn't pray.

The second point is this.... is quality not better than quantity? Is one heartfelt and genuine Our Father, not better than 1,000 automatically blurted Our Fathers.... why the need to say ten Hail Marys in each decade of the rosary? (yes, ok.... thats why its referred to as a decade, but appart from that, why all the Hail Marys?)

antiskeptic

the_dark_side wrote: »

I have had a few thoughts on levels of devotion versus entrance into Heaven.... and my thoughts are in no way intended to offend,

Example 1. Man or woman who attends mass every day, says a few decades of the Rosary in the evening, gives over a generous envelope on Sunday. Obeys the Churches teachings to the very letter of the law.

The Roman Catholic church (who you seem to be basing your post around) derives some of their teaching from the Bible. "Love others as you love yourself" being one such teaching. No one can do that. Not to the letter of the law.

(which is why Jesus gave that command. I mean, if God wanted you to be convinced of the fact you'll forever fall short of God's law then this was a pretty good way of doing it: setting the bar this high, I mean)

Example 2. Person who goes to mass every Sunday, sits towards the back maybe, says the odd prayer, gives the ocassional few quid so as not to be seen as mean, doesn't really bother with confessions, and doesn't have that much of an opinion regarding anything controversial or political that may surface from within the church.

Example 3. Person who goes maybe twice a year, (weddings, Christmas), doesn't give money, and will mumble an Our Father if the plane hits turbulance... otherwise, is a good living person, a generous person, was raised a Christian but now slighlty lapsed, but still likes to believe to a certain degree but who is very unsure about alot of what the church has been teaching...this person may feel that it is better than having no belief?


My question is this......

Does God have higher places in Heaven for people who have said more prayers, those who have given more money and those who attended church more often?

The first issue is 'getting to heaven'. This isn't achieved by what you do (as exampled by you above). The issue of greater and lesser in the kingdom of God does appear to involve our (those who are saved) response to God's demands (which don't include eg: mass)

Will God disregard those of us who have lived a good life, but may not have come running to the church every Sunday, and who may have stopped going to confession altogether, and who quite simply can't see the good in handing money over to the church....

A good life according to God is a life that neither you nor I can live. Not by mass going, not by giving to the poor, not by living a good life according to some other measure than God's measure of a good life.

Which is why we need a savior. And why he supplied one.

Because we need one.

the_dark_side

Im sorry but thats not very clear.... I will put it very simply...
are people who kneel each day reciting loads of prayers, kidding themselves?
Do they think that by doing this, they are buying their way into Heaven?
Does the good living person, who doesn't bow and kneel, or go to mass regularly, get penalised when they reach the pearly gates?
simple question

Splendour

the_dark_side wrote: »

Im sorry but thats not very clear.... I will put it very simply...
are people who kneel each day reciting loads of prayers, kidding themselves?
Do they think that by doing this, they are buying their way into Heaven?
Does the good living person, who doesn't bow and kneel, or go to mass regularly, get penalised when they reach the pearly gates?
simple question

John 3

1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

the_dark_side

Splendour, this is almost poetic and I have read through it a few times, and I do get some meaning from it, but not really related to my question regarding quantity vs quality of prayer.
From a very young age it we were led to believe that if we had committed certain sins, that a number of prayers prescribed would absolve us of our wrong doing... similarly, we are told of the 'importance of the Rosary' how our rewards in Heaven will be greater if we spend more time dedicated to devotion to God.

I would like to know how people expect to achieve salvation through the repetition of thousands of words

Slav

the_dark_side wrote: »

I would like to know how people expect to achieve salvation through the repetition of thousands of words

The best way to find out is to ask them directly. The tricky part here would be to find those people.

the_dark_side

yes, but I stupidly thought that I might find them on here, on the Christianity forums

Splendour

the_dark_side wrote: »

Splendour, this is almost poetic and I have read through it a few times, and I do get some meaning from it, but not really related to my question regarding quantity vs quality of prayer.
From a very young age it we were led to believe that if we had committed certain sins, that a number of prayers prescribed would absolve us of our wrong doing... similarly, we are told of the 'importance of the Rosary' how our rewards in Heaven will be greater if we spend more time dedicated to devotion to God.

I would like to know how people expect to achieve salvation through the repetition of thousands of words

You asked the question 'are people who kneel each day reciting loads of prayers, kidding themselves?
Do they think that by doing this, they are buying their way into Heaven?'

The answer is simply yes, they are kidding themselves if they think those prayers are a ticket to Heaven.

antiskeptic

the_dark_side wrote: »

Im sorry but thats not very clear.... I will put it very simply...

are people who kneel each day reciting loads of prayers, kidding themselves? Do they think that by doing this, they are buying their way into Heaven?

If they are not saved and are supposing they will be saved by their kneeling on the ground and saying loads of prays then yes - they are kidding themselves and are being kidded by the Roman Catholic church. They will not enter heaven by this means.

Does the good living person, who doesn't bow and kneel, or go to mass regularly, get penalised when they reach the pearly gates?

If they are not saved and are supposing they will be saved on account of their 'good living' then they are kidding themselves as much as the multiple Hail Mary reciter is. They will not enter heaven by these means.

simple question

Hopefully the answers to your questions are crystal clear.

North_West_Art

antiskeptic wrote: »

If they are not saved and are supposing they will be saved on account of their 'good living' then they are kidding themselves as much as the multiple Hail Mary reciter is. They will not enter heaven by these means.

then if a person is born into a society where he or she is oblivious to organised religion, and lives a good life without ever setting foot inside a church, temple, syn-agog, prayer house... when they pass on to the next life, are they disregarded by the keepers of these different paradises? You seem to have an insight in to how this works

antiskeptic

North_West_Art wrote: »

then if a person is born into a society where he or she is oblivious to organised religion, and lives a good life without ever setting foot inside a church, temple, syn-agog, prayer house... when they pass on to the next life, are they disregarded by the keepers of these different paradises? You seem to have an insight in to how this works

If they don't belong to that group of people called 'the saved' then the keeper of the Christian paradise won't be 'letting them in'. How one comes to belong to the aforementioned group isn't achieved by living a good life (just like it isn't achieved by setting foot inside a church and spending time on your knees).

Whether these oblivious people have heard of Christ or not isn't the question. Whether they avail of his provision unto salvation, is.

the_dark_side

interesting... from which point in time in the evolution of people do the 'saved' belong? Are those who are from BC excluded from this group, and if not, how far back in time does the saved people descend from?

antiskeptic

the_dark_side wrote: »

interesting... from which point in time in the evolution of people do the 'saved' belong? Are those who are from BC excluded from this group, and if not, how far back in time does the saved people descend from?

Any point in time BC or AD. And if you're inclined, as I am, to start at Adam and Eve then the opportunity for salvation was open to them also. And from then on.

the_dark_side

then wouldn't logic suggest that the oblivious AD person shares as much as a chance of being saved as the oblivious BC person... and I will even go as far as to say, the present day people who never really had any reilgious direction... along with the BC people of the same catagory are technically both saved....the following example springs to mind

example 1: A Christian who has done alot of wrong, has harmed people in his/her life and who has had dodgy business affairs in their past, but who still attends church, and who has confessed etc.

example 2: A person not associated to any church or religion... more or less because they were never directed towards any religious institution (I know of these people), who haved lived exempilary lives...who are good company and who you would trust with your life.

does example 1 achieve 'saved' status over our second example....if the answer is yes, then why?
Is example 2 damned because they are non practicing?

I am not with you on Adam and Eve, sorry

PDN

the_dark_side wrote: »

example 2: A person not associated to any church or religion... more or less because they were never directed towards any religious institution (I know of these people), who haved lived exempilary lives...who are good company and who you would trust with your life.

The exemplerary lives bit is where we have a problem. I don't believe any such person exists. We have all sinned.

(This is where I wish we'd cut and pasted from all the previous times this has been discussed in this forum).

the_dark_side

yes, I know what you mean... we are standing at the precipice of a chasm of debate here. Ok replace the word exemplary with honorable, decent, good... those who have rarely sinned

Tim Robbins

PDN wrote: »

The exemplerary lives bit is where we have a problem. I don't believe any such person exists. We have all sinned.

(This is where I wish we'd cut and pasted from all the previous times this has been discussed in this forum).

Well in the eyes of statute law, not all of us have committed crimes.
Christianity has such a long list of rules (many of which open to interpretation) it's impossible not to sin.

PDN

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Well in the eyes of statute law, not all of us have committed crimes.
Christianity has such a long list of rules (many of which open to interpretation) it's impossible not to sin.

If you want to discuss statute law then here is the forum for you: http://boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=633

This being the Christianity Forum we are discussing sin in the sight of God.

dermothickey

To the OP...we honestly do not Know the correct and Truthful answer to your question, Those who pretend to know by guessing and quoting passages are just pretending to Know BUT, one thing for sure is Someone Knows :D:D

antiskeptic

the_dark_side wrote: »

then wouldn't logic suggest that the oblivious AD person shares as much as a chance of being saved as the oblivious BC person... and I will even go as far as to say, the present day people who never really had any reilgious direction

Indeed. I'm not of the opinion that one need have heard of Christ or Christianity in order to be saved by what Christ did. Not in the OT period, not in the new

example 1: A Christian who has done alot of wrong, has harmed people in his/her life and who has had dodgy business affairs in their past, but who still attends church, and who has confessed etc.

The word Christian is synonymous with the word saved. You can't be one without being the other. That you might not realise you're a Christian/saved doesn't alter you being so (if you are so). Conversely, there are many who identify themselves as Christian but they aren't actually - and so (according to our synonym above) they are still unsaved.

example 2: A person not associated to any church or religion... more or less because they were never directed towards any religious institution (I know of these people), who haved lived exempilary lives...who are good company and who you would trust with your life.

There is nothing in what you've said that indicates what this persons status is. Their good living neither adds nor subtracts to their achieving the status "saved". Just as their bad living neither adds nor subtracts from their achieving the status "saved".

does example 1 achieve 'saved' status over our second example....if the answer is yes, then why?

According to our synonym: if you are a Christian it's the same as saying you are saved.

Is example 2 damned because they are non practicing?

Not enough info: they might be saved or not - we can't tell.

I am not with you on Adam and Eve, sorry

You asked to which point in time do the saved belong. I replied that they belong in all ages - since the start of man (A&E in my view). Men have been saved by what Christ did - whether they lived before him or not.

Consider (and I simplify) that men have fulfilled God's criteria for saving them over the whole course of history. And because they have done so, God has placed their sin on Christ and punished their sin in him. He can place an OT's sin on Christ shoulders. He can place my sin on Christ's shoulders.

Tim Robbins

PDN wrote: »

If you want to discuss statute law then here is the forum for you: http://boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=633

This being the Christianity Forum we are discussing sin in the sight of God.

Well if you approach it with that scope, you are at circular logic.

"God says we sin"
"But what defines sin"
"God"

i.e. God defines the property Sin, but Sin is contingent on God.

I suppose you could direct me to another forum for circular logic :-)