OUR PIRHANA APCS = EXPENSIVE SITTING DUCKS?

Avgas

Nice post Blassman,

But I thought I was the wild delusional fantansist on this thread!

(I’m joking not having a dig at you! )

So you want us to get Merkava type APCs….?

The heart is with you…BUT the feeble mind….is saying NO.

Never going happen anymore than a purchase of Customized M113s….

BTW…Merkava tanks were destroyed and damaged in the Leb in 2006 (and even before that) by the Hezbullocks….using megabombs, boulderbombs, maybe some fancy EFPs, and fairly straightforward stuff like RPG29/32, and Metis-M and Kornet…….

Bottom line: You can never have a 100% protected vehicles, but you can have a 50-60% solution.
Our Pirhanas now are more like a 25-33% fix. Your Namer would be a 75-80% level of protection…and a modified Pirhana or M113 would get close to a 50% level….

Nammer would be prob. double the weight of a customized uparmoured M113…about 60t compared to 25-30t

Remember we have to ship by sea over long distances with commercial shipping any heavy vehicles to Liberia, Chad and the “next big show”.

Israeli’s don’t really have that concern about heavy weight/volume = more money + time for transit/loading and maybe less vehicles sent.

It is true they are found of amphibious ops just to jazz things up in the Leb theatre, but they mainly keep their heavy tanks and APCs on dry land from what I know…….and even then it would a different thing to load a few landing craft with a dozen Merks and assorted Namer APCs…than shipping them thousands of miles…….

Nice sentiment . Not a runner I’m afraid.

BUT the real Israeli lesson is IMPROVISATION WITH THE VEHICLES YOU HAVE IS A GOOD/ECONOMIC IDEA….and it can even be done in house by Army depots at cost if need be…….

Modified Scorpions anyone?

Anyone good with photoshop?

concussion

It would take a lot more than photoshop to fit a section of troops into a Scorpion.

Manic Moran

In fairness, there is an APC version of Scorpion (Spartan), also Wiesel.

NTM

Avgas

There were actually two APC versions of the Scorpion--the Spartan could take 4-5, and yes it was a squeeze, but a stretched Stormer variant was at least developed...and that could carry 8.

BTW carrying four infantry rather than 8-10 might actually be quite sensible given the risks of IEDS.

Don't put too many eggs in one basket seems to be a vital lesson.

Some MRAPs can carry a dozen or more soldiers and the USMC were guilty of using LVT7s with entire squads (14 marines in 2005 were killed in one at Haditha when hit by an IEDS.)

concussion

Indeed - but not the ones we have.

Avgas

Concussion...now really...have ya no creative thinking about ya?...

your reply is SOOOOO Irish DF...... The Israeli's would have done it years ago..

1. Lift out the turrets with a crane and recycle metal for use on this project or store turrets for future use.
2. Build a new roof using layers of aluminum sheeting and with higher clearance so that it would look like the Sultan variant.
3. Build some kind of rear door (a ramp would be lovely but this is a Yellow pack job)
4. Put in proper protected seats like Pirhanas and mount them to roof and build in foot rests.
5. Try and keep and recycle the co-axial turret sight and mount it to roof in a 360 casing mount (may not be doable at all given co-axial nature of that sight). In any event have a GPMG mounted on the forward roof hatch.
6. Add a second roof hatch/gun position if you can at the rear. Mount a second GPMG to the roof if possible.
7. Seeing as you likely have no money for proper ceramic plates make your own fibre glass moulds for fibre glass slabs and stick them on around key spots. BA used same in NI in 1970s. Better than nothing and light.
8. Lay your hands on some good quality aluminum spar or poles and build improvised slat armour-especially at the side and rear.
9. Now make a dismountable improvised IED roller using tractor tyres and a gravity release, wire pull activated, drop down v-plough/dozer, above or behind these. Have that ensemble mounted away from the vehicle with variable length of attachment..say 1-2m ideal
10. Most important, and most expensive of all, change the engine to a diesel...various models are on offer...BUT if your desperate just rip out old 4x4 diesel engines and try them...the original engine was a modified 4.2 litre Jaguar car engine developing 190hp..:)...oh and create a fire-liner for the rubber fuel bladder....if you can...
11. Make everyone onboard wear NOMEX flight suits, mittens and balaclavas all the time.....or at least when their being shot at.
12. Attach Padre Pio sticker over driver's position, rosary beads, Knock water, and scaplers above rear door, and any other religious/good luck charms you feel welcome to (not being sectarian).

You build 10 of these and keep them in Curragh in case you have a PK mission where IEDS are systematic threat, then you have the option of a tracked tactical unit that can stay off roads with few problems.. giving some mobility and surprise.....

The remaining 4 you canabalise for spare parts. [if they haven't been already]..may be able to get more spares and hulls from the Belgians who had quite a few Scorpions.....

They're probably way too old for this now.
If we had a more 'can do' outlook we would have done it in the mid 1990s.
Yes it would look bloody awful.
Don't say it can't be done.:)

concussion

Why would we need to? We already have scores of APC's which could be upgraded to meet foreseeable threats without having to butcher the Scorpions.

Avgas

Why would we need to?

A. It would be fun.
B. They have tracks....tracks are BETTER to avoid IEDS.....we've had that discussion some time back......
C. BTW I suggest we also 'butcher' (your verb-nice:)) about half our Pirhanas in a vaguely similar way.

Oh I didn't mention.... you'd need to probably buy a proper belly armour slab from the likes of Mechem or Tencate to stop an EFP IED, Without that you could be in trouble.

I'm obviously not v. serious here?

It was more I was sort of demonstrating what could be done...to reinforce the point that improvised armour upgrades of vehicles can be done....if you want to.....

Morpheus

I believe the scorps WERE converted to diesel some years ago??? I think i even posted a thread in military asking about it? could be wrong though.

concussion

Avgas wrote: »

Why would we need to?

A. It would be fun.
B. They have tracks....tracks are BETTER to avoid IEDS.....we've had that discussion some time back......
C. BTW I suggest we also 'butcher' (your verb-nice:)) about half our Pirhanas in a vaguely similar way.

A -
B - Will they have enough mobility you've attached all this armour?
C - I wouldn't use the same term for up-armouring the Mowags. I think it's appropriate for what you propose for the Scorpions though.

Avgas

A. It would still be great fun to DIY. Go on admit it?:)

B. Yes mobility would be reduced..no way of knowing by how much until you trial. Much of what I suggested was light anyhow. Because its tracked and low off the ground the roll over problem probably wouldn't be an issue.

C. If you think what I suggest doing to our Scorpions is "butchering" then have a close look at this beauty to see what the Israelis do to old tanks for a hobby:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nagmachon01.jpg


BTW we've a long history of DIY/Improv armour...Auld Ford Lash-up Armoured Cars due "da emergency'....Unimog Browning shields and mounts...various work on the Panhards......etc.

And we also have a history of getting ripped off by official manufacturers and supplies.... a certain French company.......:rolleyes:

punchdrunk

I still think that the scorpys speed is it's best asset
we'd be better off sticking a turret like the recce mowags on it
with the 3omm to make it a budget Bradley (sticking javelin on it
is probably a bit too ambitious! Extra armour is doable,look at the scimitar in afg$

same ammo and same training would be simple for logistics sake
we've only got six of these mowags
but we could have an extra 14 scorpions in this role
great for peacekeeping missions and we could get it through
government as an "upgrade" in stead of
"holy god were buying new tanks!!"

Avgas

Scorpions as a complement to the Pirhana MRVs?

Good post.

Yeah I buy that idea...that way you wouldn't be ruining a perfectly lovely turret.....my Butchering instincts..forgive me .....:)

And your right there is a need for more escort or 'recce in force' vehicles other than the handful of Pirhana MRVs (which BTW do appear from photos to maybe have additional armour slabs of an "unspecified type" on their turrets...but I've no details...)

My only gripe is the original idea of having a tracked APC that could be off road nearly 80% of the time to avoid IEDS would be gone "4ever".........and I've suggested a tracked platform would be better for that....

but in reality [:eek:] it will be either bog standard Pirhana or updated Pirhanas...or Pajero's with Padre Pio stickers......

Department of Offence and Department of Financial Mismanagement ("Dumb and Dumber") are never going to authorize nothing for the next decade.

It'll be the 80s all over again, only worse. The music will be worse as well.

I can see them even trying to flog the Pirhana's if things get even worse... than they are.....
(that is if its clinically possible for the patient, the Irish economy, to be deader than dead)


BTW does any know for sure, as Morpheus raised yonks ago, whether the bloody things now have diesels or not?..

I thought I read something like that as well in a vintage An Cosantoir.....

Maybe delusional as ever.

concussion

C: There's a couple of old Comets up in the Curragh that are only sitting around gathering litter

Not knowing much about Cav. Recce., are the MRV's and CRV's not a bit large for the role? Granted they carry dismounts which is something the Scorpions don't (unless you butcher half of them) but it would appear, to myself anyway, that the CVR-T's are more suited to this. A Hitfist turret could be a good refit though.

Edit - I see that the M3 Bradley is a similar size. Is the US Cav Scout role much different to what we do over here or am I on the wrong track with the size issue?

punchdrunk

from memory they were upgraded to Diesel alright
I believe there was some issues on our scorpions with fume extraction from the 76mm gun too

concussion

They could use the issue respirators surely?

Avgas

Comet Tank hull just waiting for some Butchering...eh?

Well like Italian tanks let's reverse ....back to the OP.

Are our Pirhana's exposed?
How could they be improved?

One answer has nothing to do with armour or technology or what vehicle you have, whether tracked or wheeled.

TACTICS can stop and prevent exposure to the IED threat.

The question is what tactics work...are we learning tactical lessons?

Avgas

My guess is that the real tactical innovation against IEDs lies in the realm of recce and especially intel

(turn the locals to tell you where the IED engineers/workshops are based-provide protection/rewards for them and seize and hold such clean terrain with infantry where possible).

One tactical imbalance in combatting IEDs which the US forces have experienced, was an excessive focus on using ‘real time visual’ aerial platforms to try and find and destroy IED planting teams, more or less in the act. Even when successful, such an approach, while dramatic, did not usually kill the bomb builder/designer, just the bomb laying team. And it often failed to uncover IED factories.

The critical issue in the fight against IEDs is HUMINT and local knowledge. Today, this high tech ‘war’ continues with ground surface and sub-surface terrain change mapping software being developed to spot and avoid IEDs, especially the super IEDS.

I’ve no doubt this technology will work and stop many attacks…but it should not detract from a HUMINT focus…and that means special forces (or similar) in situ living with locals, excellent local language proficiency/translators, liberal use of bribes/benefits in kind, etc.

Somebody might object but aren’t US and other forces doing that in Astan?

Nope…not really…or only now…. Seems to be the answers.
Read if you’ve time, just a few bits of this report on US Intel needs vz Astan [http://www.cnas.org/files/documents/publications/AfghanIntel_Flynn_Jan2010_code507_voices.pdf]

…it is a bit jargon heavy and bit academic at times for what is a brutal business….but its clear that US and other forces do not KNOW the terrain and the people….who has money/influence, who can be turned, etc.

The actual Battalion level INT assets do have patches of detailed info but it seems they are not supported enough nor are their insights collated enough….in crude terms the focus is on getting targetting ‘actionable’ intel…for pulling down strikes…rather than political info…which might provide a context for negotiating local truces/pacts, etc….in short the core problem has been a reactive and tactical use of intel rather than proactive and strategic use of HUMINT (aimed at reducing political support for insurgents).

If you’ve little time, just see the example they give of Nawa district in Helmand province on Page 13.

Note the lesson of brining intel down into the Coy formation as a systematic function and tasking…..how would Irish DF stack up there?

Manic Moran

concussion wrote: »

Edit - I see that the M3 Bradley is a similar size. Is the US Cav Scout role much different to what we do over here or am I on the wrong track with the size issue?

The Brad is, in my opinion, a pretty lousy recon vehicle in its current incarnation. I have seen experimental variants with mast-mounted sights and so on, but the fact remains that the thing still comes in at some 27 tons, is 12 foot tall,, kindof top-heavy, and leaves a lovely plume of smoke. The history of the Brad is rather convoluted, and a wonderful example of people designing a horse by committee and ending up with a camel. One major consideration for the choice of the Brad was the fact that it's impossible to tell a recon vehicle from an APC: If the enemy saw it, it would have no way of knowing if he was looking at a scout or the lead elements of a main body. Of course, scouts aren't supposed to be seen in the first place...

That said, the US Cavalry role is not merely scouting. A cav unit could get a 'Guard' mission, which is basically a fighting withdrawl, buying time for main line units to set up thorough defenses. For that end, the combination of missiles and cannon is pretty handy, though you still want to bring a tank along to help. It is also to be said that the Army has figured out that scouts need more dismounts than they current are assigned (Each recon Brad has two dismounts), so the fact that they have Brads simply means you just need to bolt two more seats in the back and drop a little of the 25mm ammo, no new vehicle purchases required.

NTM

Disco Volante

Only 2 or 3 at the most of the Scorpions were upgraded to diesel. I know the man that changed out the engines!

gizmo555

iceage wrote: »

Took long enough, They were announced late 2008.

Could be worse. The Brits have apparently spent stg£207 million and seven years developing a new APC and still haven't got a finished design!

More here.

iceage

Fair point.