Metallica Superthread -All Metallica discussion goes in here

Wanderer78

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

In this case its like you asking your boss for equal pay as him

whats wrong that, if you help to create the product?

Ash.J.Williams

Wanderer78 wrote: »

nice approach to a band! i dont know ghost, the more i hear about them(him), the less interested im becoming.

I don't see the issue here at all

Wanderer78

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

I don't see the issue here at all

patience, money issues generally always eventually surface, it Metallica about 20 years to reach that point

Ash.J.Williams

Wanderer78 wrote: »

whats wrong that, if you help to create the product?

The product is designed written and provided to you in sheet music, you interview and audition to play it you pass and are hired, whats the issue,?

You deserve equal pay as your boss?

Wanderer78

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

You deserve equal pay as your boss?

why not? the music industry is well known for its pay issues within bands, i do think metallica were right to eventually change this to equal pay, it reduces the possibility of internal band tensions and possible destruction of the band. mr ghost is coming across as being a bit of a control freak, and they tend to be right arseholes.

Dozyart

Wanderer78 wrote: »

jaysis, i wouldnt say that, id imagine touring isnt all that nice, and just turning up isnt good enough, you actually have to play, and play well, or id imagine your contract wont be getting renewed. i know amateur musicians traveling the length and breath of the country, not a particularly nice lifestyle.

Ah i didnt mean just turning up as in not giving a bollix,i meant it as no pressures from record companies,album failures/tour flops etc....they are more than likely top session players or even have their own bands to fall back on if it goes tits up!

I'm one of them musicians travelling all over and the way Ghost are set up is actually a mirror image of the way the top amateur/cover bands in the country are run!
The majority have 1/2 members that run the show/chase bookings/advertising etc etc and naturally take home the majority of the money,while the rest are basically contractors!Once everyone knows and understands their roles,its fine!

Ash.J.Williams

Wanderer78 wrote: »

why not? the music industry is well known for its pay issues within bands, i do think metallica were right to eventually change this to equal pay, it reduces the possibility of internal band tensions and possible destruction of the band. mr ghost is coming across as being a bit of a control freak, and they tend to be right arseholes.

Hang on... You're completely changing the goal posts here...

He is taking all the risk... He is guaranteeing a salary to his employees. he gets publishing and royalties.... Today in 2018 his first album (of which no member of the current band played on) is starting to generate royalties. What would they do for money tíl now?

Ash.J.Williams

Wanderer78 wrote: »

why not? the music industry is well known for its pay issues within bands, i do think metallica were right to eventually change this to equal pay, it reduces the possibility of internal band tensions and possible destruction of the band. mr ghost is coming across as being a bit of a control freak, and they tend to be right arseholes.

If you train as a professional musician you are a professional entitled to industry rates. The odds of finding 3 other people at that stage of your life and bonding in such a way that you are capable of living in poverty and mutually writing and creating together and gambling that it might work out us next to impossible.

Tobias from ghost has done all that work himself and he required hired musicians to play the ****ing thing... How is this hard to understand

Ash.J.Williams

Wanderer78 wrote: »

but dont all members turn up, and do their bit? wouldnt unequal pay not cause divisions within the band? even tallica realised this eventually, addressing it in skom

Metallica are a multi million corporation new bands are broke

Wanderer78

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

Hang on... You're completely changing the goal posts here...

He is taking all the risk... He is guaranteeing a salary to his employees. he gets publishing and royalties.... Today in 2018 his first album (of which no member of the current band played on) is starting to generate royalties. What would they do for money tíl now?

the idea of a single controller of a business doesnt sit well with me, i have looked into flat structure businesses and co-ops, but that really is a discussion for another thread. the music industry has always struggled with pay for artists, if i was setting up my own band, all members would be given equal pay, but equal share of risk and work would be expected, id rather all band member's be equally treated, and have equal involvement in the whole process, its just the way im wired. ive spoken to many musicians, money is one of the most common causes of bands failing, equality in pay, might just resolve some of those issues

Ash.J.Williams

Wanderer78 wrote: »

the idea of a single controller of a business doesnt sit well with me, i have looked into flat structure businesses and co-ops, but that really is a discussion for another thread. the music industry has always struggled with pay for artists, if i was setting up my own band, all members would be given equal pay, but equal share of risk and work would be expected, id rather all band member's be equally treated, and have equal involvement in the whole process, its just the way im wired. ive spoken to many musicians, money is one of the most common causes of bands failing, equality in pay, might just resolve some of those issues

Then you would have serious issues artistically... What if the money didn't come... Then you'd have band members suggesting you drop the satanism and play wagon wheel,?

Wanderer78

Ash.J.Williams wrote:

Then you would have serious issues artistically... What if the money didn't come... Then you'd have band members suggesting you drop the satanism and play wagon wheel,?

Wagon wheel, please continue, I like where this idea is going. I personally think it's highly disrepectful if there's unequal pay within bands, and not being a part of the creative process must be sole destroying

Dozyart

Wanderer78 wrote: »

the idea of a single controller of a business doesnt sit well with me, i have looked into flat structure businesses and co-ops, but that really is a discussion for another thread. the music industry has always struggled with pay for artists, if i was setting up my own band, all members would be given equal pay, but equal share of risk and work would be expected, id rather all band member's be equally treated, and have equal involvement in the whole process, its just the way im wired. ive spoken to many musicians, money is one of the most common causes of bands failing, equality in pay, might just resolve some of those issues

It's a romantic notion but it's not really applicable in real life,it will work for the once a month gigging for the craic bands but to make a living it has to turn into a business!
Having 4 lads pool the money for equipment,vans.advertising etc is great in theory until one lad wants out and then wants to be paid back for all the money he put in or he will take half your P.A in kind and then things turn nasty!
If you have it set up with 1 leader/manager then he takes on all the responsibility for everything and the rest essentially become contractors and can come and go without causing much damage to the earning power of the business and the other members!!Do i want to earn as much as my boss?Yes!!Can i be arsed with all that entails?Not a chance!So i get paid a price that i think im worth and whatever else anyone makes after is no concern of mine to be honest!
Ghost are pretty much the same on a massively larger scale of course!

Ash.J.Williams

Plus ghosts material is amazing as it is

I guess another analogy would be Andrew loyd webber, should he be payed the same as 2nd oboe?

Stone Deaf 4evr

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Wagon wheel, please continue, I like where this idea is going. I personally think it's highly disrepectful if there's unequal pay within bands, and not being a part of the creative process must be sole destroying

whats your stance on solo artists that tour? do you think that whoever plays the trumpet for Rod Stewart should be paid the same as the headline artist?

Wanderer78

theyre fair arguments alright, but the idea just doesnt sit well with me, maybe im just old school

Wanderer78

Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »

whats your stance on solo artists that tour? do you think that whoever plays the trumpet for Rod Stewart should the same as the headline artist?

same response as above

jack presley

Would people have the same issue if instead of being called Ghost, it was called Tobias Forge?

I’d imagine the majority of solo artists are doing the exact same thing. It’s just that he’s decided to use a band name as opposed to his own name but it’s still a solo and not a band project.

Ash.J.Williams

Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »

whats your stance on solo artists that tour? do you think that whoever plays the trumpet for Rod Stewart should be paid the same as the headline artist?

You know ozzy and Sharon hired musicians recently (Rob trujillo) to re record the old bass and drums on the blizzard of oz to essentially remove the original musicians from royalties?

Stone Deaf 4evr

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

You know ozzy and Sharon hired musicians recently (Rob trujillo) to re record the old bass and drums on the blizzard of oz to essentially remove the original musicians from royalties?

jaysus, thats beyond scummy.

slavetothegrind

Wanderer78 wrote: »

theyre fair arguments alright, but the idea just doesnt sit well with me, maybe im just old school

SO you form a band, decide all equal split on everything, everyone contributes what the can and any money earned after expenses equally divided.
All good so far.
First album done and support tour, goes pretty well there is SOME money coming in.

Now the drummer doesn't like setting up so he has that done for him and he is always late. He played on the album but EXACTLY the parts YOU wrote on ezdrummer when you wrote the song with the singer.
He disappears at teardown after minimal work and is a generally lazy git even if he is funny and a good hang.

Are you still cool watching him get the same as your hard working, promoting, booking, PA rigging, writing self?

It definitely has changed the majority of bands once the money comes in.

Ash.J.Williams

Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »

jaysus, thats beyond scummy.

It gets worse... Did ozzy write the music? Chap was brushing his hair with a spoon at the time..

His musicians wrote the music and then got shafted

jack presley

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

It gets worse... Did ozzy write the music? Chap was brushing his hair with a spoon at the time..

His musicians wrote the music and then got shafted

Isn’t songwriting publishing separate to performance royalties though?

If you wrote the song, there’s no amount of re-recording that can take away your right to the money generated from the song’s publishing.

slavetothegrind

for facts sake by Bob Daisley is a great read for the real story on Sharon.

Ash.J.Williams

jack presley wrote: »

Isn’t songwriting publishing separate to performance royalties though?

If you wrote the song, there’s no amount of re-recording that can take away your right to the money generated from the song’s publishing.

If you wrote a song and filled in the forms you are the owner, however throw Sharon into the mix and you're ****ed...

Dravokivich

jack presley wrote: »

Isn’t songwriting publishing separate to performance royalties though?

If you wrote the song, there’s no amount of re-recording that can take away your right to the money generated from the song’s publishing.

I only touched on the subject briefly in college, but as far as publishing rights goes, you're on it if you contributed to writing it regardless of who is going to record it.

Rights to recorded performances are a different matter. "Typically" if a company such as a label was investing in an album, they'd own the masters of the recording. But that's all down to individual contracts and a lot of that has moved on over the last 20 years.

Carrying on from that concept, the royalties from recordings, once an investment has been recouped is then the artists. But if a session musician was involved, such as Rob Trujilo, he may not be due a royalty for performance. That depends on the contract they've signed with the artist and any royalties due, would be from the artists cut.

It doesn't matter if Rob re-records the same tracks. If an original recording is sold, and the musicians involved in that are due royalties, Rob being on new recordings won't change that.

PTH2009

I imagine the Rock N Roll lifestyle is not like its portrayed in Hollywood ???

We hear all the crazy stories of bands going nuts everynight on Drink/Drugs/Sex etc.

Theres prob a 100s of guys/girls who got lucky and made a living from music and theres prob 1000s who never made it, same goes for Acting/Radio DJ/Artists etc

Some relations of famous muscians are also not guranteed the big time as we see Sons/Daughters/Neices/Nephews etc who still have to go on talent shows etc even though there relation is a big deal. You would think someone like Bono or Lars son would walk into a record deal just cause of who there related too

slavetothegrind

PTH2009 wrote: »

I imagine the Rock N Roll lifestyle is not like its portrayed in Hollywood ???

We hear all the crazy stories of bands going nuts everynight on Drink/Drugs/Sex etc.

Theres prob a 100s of guys/girls who got lucky and made a living from music and theres prob 1000s who never made it, same goes for Acting/Radio DJ/Artists etc

Some relations of famous muscians are also not guranteed the big time as we see Sons/Daughters/Neices/Nephews etc who still have to go on talent shows etc even though there relation is a big deal. You would think someone like Bono or Lars son would walk into a record deal just cause of who there related too

It boils down to one thing, can this artist make me money?
Everything else is irrelevant.
And you nearly have to be already sucessful on you tube to have any chance with a record company. Then you have to ask yourself what they can offer you for the huge cut they will take.

Absolutely no guarantees with offspring of success, there are not many Miley's about.

Ash.J.Williams

Dravokivich wrote: »

I only touched on the subject briefly in college, but as far as publishing rights goes, you're on it if you contributed to writing it regardless of who is going to record it.

Rights to recorded performances are a different matter. "Typically" if a company such as a label was investing in an album, they'd own the masters of the recording. But that's all down to individual contracts and a lot of that has moved on over the last 20 years.

Carrying on from that concept, the royalties from recordings, once an investment has been recouped is then the artists. But if a session musician was involved, such as Rob Trujilo, he may not be due a royalty for performance. That depends on the contract they've signed with the artist and any royalties due, would be from the artists cut.

It doesn't matter if Rob re-records the same tracks. If an original recording is sold, and the musicians involved in that are due royalties, Rob being on new recordings won't change that.

What if yourself and myself cowrote a few songs as a band with ozzy under the name ozzy. No agreements on paper just split evenly... But in the background the manager had all rights and publishing filed under "ozzy"... 20 years later they stop paying you, can you prove you wrote anything?


The absolutey solid bass and drums in the smiths thought they were in the smiths until the split then finding out legally they were in the Morrissey /Marr band which was hard on them

Ash.J.Williams

slavetothegrind wrote: »

It boils down to one thing, can this artist make me money?
Everything else is irrelevant.
And you nearly have to be already sucessful on you tube to have any chance with a record company. Then you have to ask yourself what they can offer you for the huge cut they will take.

Absolutely no guarantees with offspring of success, there are not many Miley's about.

That's it in a nutshell... All big bands that sold bucket loads before illegal downloads made money, nowadays its penny's from Google.