Special needs kid at funeral

Dudess

Some people are obsessed with telling others they're being "PC" - maybe you should consider that it's nothing to do with being PC (much of which is about keeping up a particular appearance) and more to do with being understanding of the mother who may not have had any choice but to bring her child to the funeral?

Taltos

sunflower27 wrote: »

Never in my wildest dreams would I consider asking someone to leave a funeral because their special needs child was interrupting the service in a way they could not control.

You have all made the effort to go and grieve and it isnt like every word is vital - it's the solidarity in being there and showing respect.

Am gobsmacked anyone would even consider doing this.

More shocked at the numbers advocating the ops actions. Truly stunning.
What has happened to treating others as you want to be treated. Since when is how you feel more important than the other person. I mean - seriously ...

liah

This thread is very upsetting to read, imo.

I don't understand how you can hold something like that against a child with special needs. They can't control what they're doing. And now you're ostracising both him and his mother, for what? For not being able to hear words?

Do you have any idea what they must go through every day? Rude comments, stares, not being welcome in public places like restaurants, movie theatres, and evidently the church. All because of a few noises that neither of them have any control over.

Do you have any idea how hard that must be for his mother? Any idea, at all? She's the one who has to deal with it. Every single day of her life, for the rest of her life. Who on earth are you to tell her she can't try to bring up her son as normal as possible? Not even to preserve his sanity, but her own, too? And yes, that includes possibly offending you for one single day so she can pay her respects.

They had every right to be there, same as you did. They wanted to mourn, same as you did. You had no right to confront them at a funeral. A funeral isn't about the words said, it's about having respect for the person that's passed-- you didn't. You were far too concerned with your own ears.

Communicationb

sunflower27 wrote: »

I know. It beggars belief. If I had been the woman with the child, I'd have been positively furious - and would have made a point of saying so after the service.

OP has no right saying who and who should not attend the funeral. I mean, if someone had a runny nose and was sneezing continuously, would they too have been asked to leave?

it's about showing respect to the deceased and in my opinion, OP, you showed none at all.

Ooo...get off your high horse. Who are you decide about respective "rights"?

The OP was at a funeral, was very upset to be mourning the loss of a close relative and there was a SN child nearby making such a noise that the OP felt compelled to ask her leave. I am sure she didnt want to do that, or makes a habit of it.

Posters (who were not there and have no understanding of the emotion or tension that was in the air) are very quick to jump down the throat of the OP...having a SN child making noises and grunts was hardly helping the situation

As someone said earlier, the situation was prob distressing for the child as it was a strange setting....well if that was the case, the child should not have been subjected to that distressing state by the mother.

IMO...the mother of the SN child showed no respect for the other mourners having her child there making such a racket and clearly quiet prepared to brazen it out.

Nobody else here was at that funeral so give over the pious indignation. It's nauseating quiet frankly.

Nevyn

Can we please all becareful of insulting other posters and posting in a manner which is not helpful.

littlebug

You don't know that the child was distressed.

What about the child? I wonder how he felt being asked to leave a Church for something he has no control over anymore than the colour of his skin. Most people here are assuming the child didn't understand what was going on. His mother will have been well aware of his level of understanding and I would suspect that's why she acted so defensively.

ztoical

liah wrote: »

This thread is very upsetting to read, imo.

I don't understand how you can hold something like that against a child with special needs. They can't control what they're doing. And now you're ostracising both him and his mother, for what? For not being able to hear words?

Do you have any idea what they must go through every day? Rude comments, stares, not being welcome in public places like restaurants, movie theatres, and evidently the church. All because of a few noises that neither of them have any control over.

Do you have any idea how hard that must be for his mother? Any idea, at all? She's the one who has to deal with it. Every single day of her life, for the rest of her life. Who on earth are you to tell her she can't try to bring up her son as normal as possible? Not even to preserve his sanity, but her own, too? And yes, that includes possibly offending you for one single day so she can pay her respects.

They had every right to be there, same as you did. They wanted to mourn, same as you did. You had no right to confront them at a funeral. A funeral isn't about the words said, it's about having respect for the person that's passed-- you didn't. You were far too concerned with your own ears.

I don't think it's as black and white as everyone is making out....a funeral is not an every day event and people react differently to grief. You don't know what comfort the OP would get from the words of the service.....did nothing for me at my fathers funeral but I know they meant alot of other members of my family. The OP has stated this wasn't a close relative so I don't understand why they didn't sit near the back of the church....it's nothing to do with the child's needs or not, it would be common sense frankly for anyone with children esp if they aren't close relatives. If I was attending the funeral of a distant relative and had a child with me, SN needs or no, I would sit near the back of the church in case I needed to step outside with them for a whole pile of reasons - they need the bathroom, they need a drink, etc etc

meditraitor

I'm with the OP on this one, special needs or not if the child is making a racket enough to prevent the congregation hearing the mass then they should not be there.

Communicationb

ztoical wrote: »

I don't think it's as black and white as everyone is making out....a funeral is not an every day event and people react differently to grief. You don't know what comfort the OP would get from the words of the service.....did nothing for me at my fathers funeral but I know they meant alot of other members of my family. The OP has stated this wasn't a close relative so I don't understand why they didn't sit near the back of the church....it's nothing to do with the child's needs or not, it would be common sense frankly for anyone with children esp if they aren't close relatives. If I was attending the funeral of a distant relative and had a child with me, SN needs or no, I would sit near the back of the church in case I needed to step outside with them for a whole pile of reasons - they need the bathroom, they need a drink, etc etc

Well that's it.

I have often in the past seen SN adults and children leaving Mass early when they get too distressed. The parents usually sit at the edge of seats so they have quick access. Same goes for babies and young children. Not a problem.

Having a sombre event like a funeral is not the place for SN children (or adults) to be making load and consistant noises throughout the ceremony.

But maybe the mother cldnt get a babysitter and had no choice...who knows...

Neyite

Communicationb wrote: »

the situation was prob distressing for the child as it was a strange setting....well if that was the case, the child should not have been subjected to that distressing state by the mother.

the op did not say that the SN kid was distressed. so you are surmising here.

i know lots of disabled (mental and physical) people and the only thing that is distressing about this situation is being asked ot leave a public place. they might be special needs, but ffs, they know very well when they are asked to get lost.

Communicationb

Neyite wrote: »

the op did not say that the SN kid was distressed. so you are surmising here.

i know lots of disabled (mental and physical) people and the only thing that is distressing about this situation is being asked ot leave a public place. they might be special needs, but ffs, they know very well when they are asked to get lost.

The OP said that the SN child seemed distressed...go back and read it...."...It was as if the child was distressed"


Unless you have further information to add then we can only go on what the OP has written.

And you have have taken my sentence out of context. I said that an earlier poster had suggested that the SN child may have been distressed and I followed that by saying if the child was indeed distressed then the child should not have been allowed to stay.

Android 666

Communicationb wrote: »

And you have have taken my sentence out of context. I said that an earlier poster had suggested that the SN child may have been distressed and I followed that by saying if the child was indeed distressed then the child should not have been allowed to stay.

I'm sure the entire family was distressed, should they have been asked to leave as well?

Communicationb

Android 666 wrote: »

I'm sure the entire family was distressed, should they have been asked to leave as well?

I wont even bother teasing that one out for you..:rolleyes:

This thread has run it's course and now pointless. Some agree... some don't agree. End of.

Android 666

Communicationb wrote: »

I wont even bother teasing that one out for you..:rolleyes:

This thread has run it's course and now pointless. Some agree... some don't agree. End of.

I was being a bit facetious but I think you get the point.
I suppose you're right though. This thread has run its course. Some people believe in excluding people believe in excluding people with special needs and some don't.

ztoical

Android 666 wrote: »

I'm sure the entire family was distressed, should they have been asked to leave as well?

If they were to a point were they were disturbing everyone else then yes. One of my cousins had a total breakdown at my dad's funeral [which frankly I found funny as my dad couldn't stand her] Anyway she was sobbing so loudly my aunt told her to go outside and get some air. Two friends of mine came without their kids but sat at the back of the church with their phones on vibrate in case the babysitters called about their kids while a cousin brought her young child but again sat at the back on the end of a row in case she needed to step outside with the child. No the SN child or anyone with any disability for that matter should be asked to leave or banned from family events but there is a common sense side to things as well.

Lux23

I have an autistic brother, he is 22 next week but he still finds it very difficult to sit still for more than a few minutes. He will start to whine if we make him so there's no point trying. We are used to this now so normally he will be in residential care during funerals etc but in the past my parents had no choice but to bring to things and there have been a few occasions where people made comments. Its really difficult dealing with an unruly child never mind an unruly adult and strangers stare at you and some even make comments. Its hurtful and distressing and to this day I still have to psyche myself to bring my little brother to the shops even. Its a sad fact but alot of Irish people are really ignorant about kids and adults with special needs and seem to think people like my brother should be hidden away.

Now these strangers wouldn't have a clue that my brother has anything wrong with him just from looking at him so they can be forgiven for the ignorance but OP you knew full well that this child had special needs yet you still went and asked the mother to leave the church. I can tell you that this woman probably struggles daily with trying to involve her child in her family and community and so she had every right to attack you and you should really consider apologising. You never know you may have to deal with having a special needs child yourself one day and wouldn't you like to know that the world is willing to accept them even with their complete lack of social skills. Think about it OP, kids with special needs aren't going to change its you who will have to.

Nevyn

The op has said she doens't know the child, so she had no way of knowing if the child was distressed or not or just being normal. It seems she has not had any exposure to the child whom she is related to or indeed other children who are simular and found the child distracting.

People often in upsetting circumstances will find something else to focus on rather then what is going on, they let themselves be distracted so they aren't dealing with what is really going on. Sounds like there maybe some misplaced anger which had been directed at the mother of the child.

Taltos

Annon1515151 wrote: »

a relative (distant) who attended the funeral with her special needs child

Op - knew the child to label them special needs.
Irrespective of how we feel my heart really does go out to the mum and the kid. Knowing their child will continue to face this all their lives cannot be easy for them.

ztoical

Lux23 wrote: »

Now these strangers wouldn't have a clue that my brother has anything wrong with him just from looking at him so they can be forgiven for the ignorance but OP you knew full well that this child had special needs yet you still went and asked the mother to leave the church. I can tell you that this woman probably struggles daily with trying to involve her child in her family and community and so she had every right to attack you and you should really consider apologising. You never know you may have to deal with having a special needs child yourself one day and wouldn't you like to know that the world is willing to accept them even with their complete lack of social skills. Think about it OP, kids with special needs aren't going to change its you who will have to.

By the same argument you could ask have you ever lost someone close to you and do you know how you would react? It sounds like the death wasn't expected and OP took it pretty bad, maybe they were displacing some grief on something else as a means to coupe but the mother in question should also take in the situation. People keep saying the OP should have been more open to a child with SN but by the same regard after the funeral the mother of said child should have taken in the fact that OP was clearly upset over the death and wasn't thinking straight. Again keep stressing it's not black and white like people would like it to be. It's not some big protest for or against disability rights, simply someones grief over losing someone close to them and someone else who is prob use to being on the defensive over their child everyday and both could have handled the whole thing better.

Lux23

I understand that but in hindsight the OP should be able to see what they did wrong, I can imagine if the OP apologised the mother of the child would probably say sorry too because as you said both sides handled this badly. But this woman reacted to what the OP did not the other way around so she needs to make the first move to apologise.

LegacyUser

OP Here.

Don't really know what to post TBH.

First off, I do understand to some degree what parents of SN kids go through, my nephew is autistic. He is only three and recently diagnosed.

I just wished that child wasn't there and I just wished that the whole incident never happened. I wish the mother would have just brought the kid to the back and not sit at the fourth row in the church. I wish the Mass went without disruption.

This wasn't the same as a kid crying which we all have heard in churches from time to time, it was extremely loud and constant.

I'm really confused myself, I'm not normally the type to approach people and complain so maybe I could have used more tact and approached her differently. I'm also not sorry I did approach her because I feel that she out of common curtosy (sp?) should have made an effort to quieten the situation.

I think I'll phone her and apologise for approaching like I did.

Thanks for the insightful replies.

MagicSean

Taltos wrote: »

Op - knew the child to label them special needs.
Irrespective of how we feel my heart really does go out to the mum and the kid. Knowing their child will continue to face this all their lives cannot be easy for them.

If she knows this why would she put her child in such a situation where a whole church full of mourners will only be focussing on her child?

drogsnookerclub

Exactly.

Lux23

k_mac wrote: »

If she knows this why would she put her child in such a situation where a whole church full of mourners will only be focussing on her child?

She may have wanted to attend the funeral but had noone to care for her child while she was there. Maybe she was a tad naive and thought that most people in 21st century Ireland could accept that some children with special needs can't behave like the rest of us. But I guess it really is too much to ask from some people. What a shameful attitude to have.

Peggypeg

I'm on the OP's side, I would be hopping mad if I was trying to grieve for a close relative and this happened. The parent is completely in the wrong here, it was really unfair of her to make her relatives miss the funeral and it was also unfair to bring the child to something where their behaviour is so disruptive, very unfair to all concerned.

ztoical

Lux23 wrote: »

She may have wanted to attend the funeral but had noone to care for her child while she was there. Maybe she was a tad naive and thought that most people in 21st century Ireland could accept that some children with special needs can't behave like the rest of us. But I guess it really is too much to ask from some people. What a shameful attitude to have.

There is a difference between wanting to attend a funeral and sitting up the front with a child that clearly needs attention. It's got nothing to do with "accepting" someone with a disability but having a bit of common sense. It's a funeral people are already raw and on edge, the implication is that the woman in question was sitting quite near the front of the church and I ask why? Now you can answer "why not she has ever right etc etc" but there is a bit a of give and take here and some common sense. As mentioned in my earlier post I had several family and friends sit near the back of the church at my dads funeral due to having children with them or needing to be able to answer phone calls at a moments notice, I also had a cousin with a serious health issue who'd just come out of hospital who sat near the back in case he had an attack, chances were pretty slim but better not to take chances was his attitude. If you've limited mobility you don't sit in the middle of a bunch of people, if you might need access to water/air/first aid you don't sit in the middle of a bunch of people. Had the OP made a big deal of the lady not sitting with the family but at the back of the church when the OP thought she should have sat with the family or being annoyed the mother didn't come due to her child then I'd say she was being inconsiderate to the childs needs, frankly I feel the OP was being short tempered and emotional for sure but I don't feel she was discriminating against the child for their disability. She should say sorry but the mother should also be aware she contributed somewhat to the situation.

MagicSean

Lux23 wrote: »

She may have wanted to attend the funeral but had noone to care for her child while she was there. Maybe she was a tad naive and thought that most people in 21st century Ireland could accept that some children with special needs can't behave like the rest of us. But I guess it really is too much to ask from some people. What a shameful attitude to have.

There's no need to get all high and mighty. I'm just being realistic. I'm sure she should have realised by now that there are certain situations she should not subject her child to unless she doesn't mind all the attention focussed on him.

Kimia

The way everyone is saying 'oh a special needs kid can't help it' - well neither can a screaming baby - but you'd bring the baby outside.

And also, what if the special needs person was embarrassed because they have no control over their sounds and what if they wanted to leave? I know that if I was at a funeral for a close relative and I couldn't stop making loud noises I would want to leave out of respect.

Also, what if they were upset and the loud noises were grieving? What if they were uncomfortable and wanted to leave?

Jumpy

gimme5minutes wrote: »

Big difference between a Batman movie and a funeral for your parent/sibling.

You obviously havent seen Batman and Robin.

MagicSean

ztoical wrote: »

There is a difference between wanting to attend a funeral and sitting up the front with a child that clearly needs attention. It's got nothing to do with "accepting" someone with a disability but having a bit of common sense. It's a funeral people are already raw and on edge, the implication is that the woman in question was sitting quite near the front of the church and I ask why? Now you can answer "why not she has ever right etc etc" but there is a bit a of give and take here and some common sense. As mentioned in my earlier post I had several family and friends sit near the back of the church at my dads funeral due to having children with them or needing to be able to answer phone calls at a moments notice, I also had a cousin with a serious health issue who'd just come out of hospital who sat near the back in case he had an attack, chances were pretty slim but better not to take chances was his attitude. If you've limited mobility you don't sit in the middle of a bunch of people, if you might need access to water/air/first aid you don't sit in the middle of a bunch of people. Had the OP made a big deal of the lady not sitting with the family but at the back of the church when the OP thought she should have sat with the family or being annoyed the mother didn't come due to her child then I'd say she was being inconsiderate to the childs needs, frankly I feel the OP was being short tempered and emotional for sure but I don't feel she was discriminating against the child for their disability. She should say sorry but the mother should also be aware she contributed somewhat to the situation.

A lot of people in this country focus on wether they have a right to do something instead of wether they should do something.

Lux23

k_mac wrote: »

There's no need to get all high and mighty. I'm just being realistic. I'm sure she should have realised by now that there are certain situations she should not subject her child to unless she doesn't mind all the attention focussed on him.

I think you need to change what you said there. What you mean is people shouldn't be subjected to her special needs child in certain situations. That's what you really mean.

Kimia

Lux23 wrote: »

I think you need to change what you said there. What you mean is people shouldn't be subjected to her special needs child in certain situations. That's what you really mean.

Who cares if he does mean that!? It's his opinion!!

Stop judging everyone!

MagicSean

Lux23 wrote: »

I think you need to change what you said there. What you mean is people shouldn't be subjected to her special needs child in certain situations. That's what you really mean.

No I said what I meant. Unfortunately the majority of the country hasn't advanced in social tolerance as much as you have. Knowing this why would you put an innocent and vulnerable child in a situation like that. Just to prove a point?

Nevyn

Unhelpful and off-topic posting will get you banned from this forum.
Do take time to read the charter which contains the rules and abide by them.
Have a nice day.
Thaedydal

Lux23

Kimia wrote: »

Who cares if he does mean that!? It's his opinion!!

Stop judging everyone!

I care because its sickening that people think its acceptable to have attitudes like that. They haven't a clue on what it feels like to have someone you love stared at and treated like a third class citizen because of who they are. It can't be changed.

Android 666

Kimia wrote: »

And also, what if the special needs person was embarrassed because they have no control over their sounds and what if they wanted to leave? I know that if I was at a funeral for a close relative and I couldn't stop making loud noises I would want to leave out of respect.

Seriously that's like saying 'If I had autism, I'd be better behaved'. Autistic people have little or no social interaction skills so there they don't know what effect they are having on people so the statement you made is a bit ignorant. The OP says the child (three years old) has only recently been diagnosed so god only knows what the mother is going through in terms of coping with the diagnosis and the condition.

MagicSean

Lux23 wrote: »

I care because its sickening that people think its acceptable to have attitudes like that. They haven't a clue on what it feels like to have someone you love stared at and treated like a third class citizen because of who they are. It can't be changed.

You don't know anything about me or my family so please don't assume I don't have a clue about something. I never said those attitudes were acceptable. But they are there wether you like it or not. Simply saying "it's not fair" won't change the world.

My own opinion is that if I was in the position of the mother of the child I would have brought him outside rather than have everyone looking at him and listeneing to him.

Darthhoob

Kimia wrote: »

The way everyone is saying 'oh a special needs kid can't help it' - well neither can a screaming baby - but you'd bring the baby outside.

And also, what if the special needs person was embarrassed because they have no control over their sounds and what if they wanted to leave? I know that if I was at a funeral for a close relative and I couldn't stop making loud noises I would want to leave out of respect.

Also, what if they were upset and the loud noises were grieving? What if they were uncomfortable and wanted to leave?

a screaming baby wont notice it's being taken away from the 'normal' people, nor will it care...for starters. in the OP's case though this child is rather young, so doubtful they'd be of that age where they start realising they are different...so the point i made was really for older, higher functioning kids/adults...who would still be 'disruptive' at a funeral.

but if a SN kid wanted to leave trust me they would leave LOL

you say you'd leave out of respect....if you made sounds you had no control over...you clearly do not know anything about autism. if you were NT and had a cough then yes you'd leave. but an autistic person doesn;'t see things the way and NT does. they lack empathy and theory of mind and social skills...amoungst a load of other stuff meaning they dont know they are showing a lack of respect in th first place...

LegacyUser

Lux23 wrote: »

I care because its sickening that people think its acceptable to have attitudes like that. They haven't a clue on what it feels like to have someone you love stared at and treated like a third class citizen because of who they are. It can't be changed.

attitudes like what? the attitude that the OP has the cheek to expect to be able to grieve for thier realtive in peace!

its a matter of common sense more than anything. a funeral is a place for the close family to morn and grive a loved one being lost, not a place just so you can stubbornly try to prove a point that your SN child is the same as everyone else. the same appies for someone with turrets or a constantly crying baby.

btw i have a SN sister but i also have some common sense.

Aloysius Flyte

I'm amazed by some of the responses here. People think this is an issue about special needs children. No its not. It's an issue about being able to behave appropriately at a funeral. Making so much noise in a funeral that people cannot hear what is going on, is not acceptable.

I recently buried my father and coming from a large family with multiple young off-spring who attended the funeral (and relations) I can safely say that those who were minding the young children were well aware that they had to remain quiet and it was a funeral. An extremely sad and upsetting time.

The children were kept further down the back, and when the really young ones started making noise, they were taken outside. This NOT was done under request from my immediate family, this was done as those who were looking after the children (spouses + relations) knew how sombre an affair a funeral is. This was done out of respect for my father, my mother and for my family. Any disruption during a funeral is just not acceptable, and not being able to hear the readings is not ok in my book. And while I'm in great admiration for the mother of the SN child, she was selfish by not thinking of the family, and I commend the OP for doing what she did.

And before, anyone gets on their high horse, there was a special needs person at my fathers funeral, as my father and mother used to mind her every Wednesday afternoon for many years to give her family a break. And I know that her parents would have taken her outside should she have been disruptive and made too much noise.

Special needs people do need to be integrated into society, but I do believe that at a funeral, when the SN person is not from the immediate family, and they are making too much noise, the mother should have had sensitivity to take him/her outside, rather than making an issue of it.

LegacyUser

It seems like the PC brigade are up in arms on this. This is a respect issue not about discriminating against special needs.
The mother should have had more consideration and Respect for the immediate family and agreed to the request.

Having said that, while the OP was correct to ask the Mother and child to be quite, it is perhaps also right that after the funeral, that the OP apologize if any offense was caused. Which don't they intended to offend

LegacyUser

I have a special needs child and if this is what I face in the future sure I may as well lock me and my child into the house and not go outside the door in case my child is making too much noise or annoying anyone

Honestly I think lots of the people replying here have no idea what life is like with a child/adult with special needs. You end up socially isolated because of people like the OP making comments. If someone walked up to me in a church or elsewhere and asked for me to go outside, well all I will say is god help them..........They would most certainly get a piece of my mind.

Where possible I would not bring my child to a situation like that but there are not many people who can safely mind a child/adult with special needs. And often u wont have many people offering to help either.

This thread are the exact reasons why people who are full time carers end up totally isolated.

miss no stars

isthiswhatsahead wrote: »

I have a special needs child and if this is what I face in the future sure I may as well lock me and my child into the house and not go outside the door in case my child is making too much noise or annoying anyone

Honestly I think lots of the people replying here have no idea what life is like with a child/adult with special needs. You end up socially isolated because of people like the OP making comments. If someone walked up to me in a church or elsewhere and asked for me to go outside, well all I will say is god help them..........They would most certainly get a piece of my mind.

Where possible I would not bring my child to a situation like that but there are not many people who can safely mind a child/adult with special needs. And often u wont have many people offering to help either.

This thread are the exact reasons why people who are full time carers end up totally isolated.

Yeah, but if your child was making so much noise at a funeral, of all events, would you not just go to the back? Seriously, would you not have the decency to, of your own accord, just move out of deference to the grief of the chief mourners?

It doesn't make a difference if the child is special needs or not at that age - they all make noise - it's a child making a distracting amount of noise and any parent, whether their child is special needs or not, should move to the back or bring the child out for a breather. Nobody is saying the parent shouldn't be there, I don't think the child should be prevented from attending either, but why should the chief mourners be prevented from hearing the mass? All that was required was to move further back to try and lessen the impact. It's not ALL about the one child.

Ya know, and I hate to say this, there is a limit to the amount as to which special needs people CAN be integrated by virtue of the fact that they are special needs. Can the child attend the funeral? Sure. Sit in the fourth row? Well, if the child can't (and nobody is suggesting that they be made to) be quiet then honestly, no. Other people have rights and needs. Special needs shouldn't mean "the only person with rights".

LegacyUser

miss no stars wrote: »

Yeah, but if your child was making so much noise at a funeral, of all events, would you not just go to the back? Seriously, would you not have the decency to, of your own accord, just move out of deference to the grief of the chief mourners?

It doesn't make a difference if the child is special needs or not at that age - they all make noise - it's a child making a distracting amount of noise and any parent, whether their child is special needs or not, should move to the back or bring the child out for a breather. Nobody is saying the parent shouldn't be there, I don't think the child should be prevented from attending either, but why should the chief mourners be prevented from hearing the mass? All that was required was to move further back to try and lessen the impact. It's not ALL about the one child.

Ya know, and I hate to say this, there is a limit to the amount as to which special needs people CAN be integrated by virtue of the fact that they are special needs. Can the child attend the funeral? Sure. Sit in the fourth row? Well, if the child can't (and nobody is suggesting that they be made to) be quiet then honestly, no. Other people have rights and needs. Special needs shouldn't mean "the only person with rights".

Honestly trying being the mother or father of a child with special needs for a day.

Sure I tell you what maybe we should all lock our special needs kids in a cage for the day when funerals/birthdays/weddings are on. You are very very naive. Yes I would have moved to the back of the church but not everyone will and if I choose not to for whatever reason and someone came up and asked me to move, there would be quite a scene. ....... and if you dont know the needs of the child in question its very hard to say just move somewhere else.

Its very very obvious that a lot of the replies on this thread are from people who have no experence whatso ever of what life is like with a special needs child. It is these ignorant attitudes that cause carers to be totally isolated from society. And for all you people who have replied and intend to have children, any one of you could end up caring for a special needs person and facing some of the attitudes on here.

amz5

ireckon wrote: »

why is it fair for one child to upset sand disrupt several people? Would it not have been basic sense and manners for the mother to take her child outside until the ceremony had ended?

I was in a restaurant the other day and a family with a special needs woman were there. When this woman was paid attention to and included in their conversation she was fine. However when they would not pay attention to her she would grunt at the top of her voice. At one point this got so loud we could barely here and just wanted to leave. What I could not understand though was why the family were ignoring this poor woman - she was getting louder and louder and more distressed? They went from talking to her to ignoring her and did not seem to give a damn about the consequences. Why bring her to a restaurant with them to ignore her and let her get upset? The other patrons of the restaurant had paid to be there only to not be able to hear a thing because this family felt it was okay to ignore this woman and allow her to disrupt everyone else.

So I suppose children with special needs shouldn't be in mainstream schools incase they disrupt the other childrens' learning? People with special needs shouldn't be allowed out in public in case they upset your happy trouble-free life?

My brother has autism and over the years we've come across bigots on several occasions. I use the word bigot because they've expressed such discrimination towards a vulnerable member of society that it could be considered hatred. I couldn't use the word prejudice in relation to some of the comments on this thread as there is a highly emotive, action-orientated movement against people with special needs being vocalised here.

My parents didn't bring my brother to weddings/funerals etc over the years, but I always felt that this was terribly unfair on them. One of them would attend special occasions if they could. People with children with special needs don't "choose" not to have a babysitter - they CAN'T find someone that will be able to mind them. Respite care is very limited. People can't choose to leave their child/teenager at home. Even family turn a blind eye to situations like that in MOST cases.

When I was young we rarely went to retaurants and never went on holidays or abroad because of peoples attitudes towards my brother (who like the child in the opening post makes grunting noises). I thought things had moved on from that. Clearly I was very much misguided. Some people are as thick as ever.

Over the years a priest has verbally abused my father, as he thought my father must be doing something to my brother for him to be in distress walking in a public area. Meanwhile my brother bit my father as he did not like the disruption to his walk. Who was wrong? One of the traits of autism is that children need routine, his routine was broken and he lashed out. However, the priest couldn't accept that what my father was saying was true and interrogated him for about 5 minutes while my brother bit him in several places up his arm, and he was left with scars. This is not bad behaviour.

A neighbour who had been informed of my brother's condition asked her boyfriend to approach him because she was not happy with the amount of time he spent in the garden as she felt he was watching her. My brother was a teenager and enjoyed spending time on his swing. It was one of the only things that he could enjoy, as he can't read, doesn't understand TV, and is completely dependent on my parents as regards going places. Her boyfriend came over to tell him he was going to beat the **** out of him unless he stopped looking at his girlfriend. Luckily my father came out of the house to address the situation, as my brother hadn't a clue what he was saying. Once again, I thought this type of person had been left in the 90s.

The Gardai called at our house about my brother's grunting as they were doing a standard walk around our area and demanded to know what was going on. Once again, it took them quite some time to accept that my brother had special needs, as he looks like everybody else.

Teenagers have circled my dad walking with my brother calling them gay, and my dad a paedophile as my dad had to hold my brothers hand on walks (when he was a teenager) as he had no understanding of roads.

I could name several other incidences.

My parents have been martyrs over the years. Special needs provision in this country is severely underfunded. In fact, it was a disgrace in the good times, so I don't know what it's going to be like for the next few years. The parents of these children have to deal with these noises and distubances every day, every week, every year. Everyone has a right to grieve. A child grunting is not the same as a crying baby. I can't believe that there are people who are so ignorant that they would equate the two. People should not have to hide their children with special needs. I hope nobody here who criticised these people ever have a child with special needs.

I completely disagree with the OP, but this comment made about the people in a restaurant is beyond comprehension. Think about someone else for a change. It was thinking like yours that caused some of the worst attrocities in human history.

Nuggles

I always found funerals to be an inclusive event in Irish community. Something that brings families together. All members of a family.

I don't think the OP has a right to exclude ANYONE from a funeral. It might have meant a lot to the mother to have her child there with her. And I don't think it's fair that she should have been denied the right to be there by anyone. Even if her son's presence was a nuisance to some people.

My grandmother died last year. And her very elderly sister wanted to attend, despite advice not to due to her frailty. But we didn't deny her that. We went out of our way to make sure she could attend, and she interrupted the wake at one point because she felt ill. But not one person complained. Because we were all glad that she could be included.

I think the OP needs to see the big picture here, and realise that a funeral, isn't about a perfectly choreographed ceremony, it's about saying goodbye and mourning a loss. And that's what they should have focused on instead of a person making some noise in the church.

LegacyUser

amz5 wrote: »

So I suppose children with special needs shouldn't be in mainstream schools incase they disrupt the other childrens' learning? People with special needs shouldn't be allowed out in public in case they upset your happy trouble-free life?

My brother has autism and over the years we've come across bigots on several occasions. I use the word bigot because they've expressed such discrimination towards a vulnerable member of society that it could be considered hatred. I couldn't use the word prejudice in relation to some of the comments on this thread as there is a highly emotive, action-orientated movement against people with special needs being vocalised here.

My parents didn't bring my brother to weddings/funerals etc over the years, but I always felt that this was terribly unfair on them. One of them would attend special occasions if they could. People with children with special needs don't "choose" not to have a babysitter - they CAN'T find someone that will be able to mind them. Respite care is very limited. People can't choose to leave their child/teenager at home. Even family turn a blind eye to situations like that in MOST cases.

When I was young we rarely went to retaurants and never went on holidays or abroad because of peoples attitudes towards my brother (who like the child in the opening post makes grunting noises). I thought things had moved on from that. Clearly I was very much misguided. Some people are as thick as ever.

Over the years a priest has verbally abused my father, as he thought my father must be doing something to my brother for him to be in distress walking in a public area. Meanwhile my brother bit my father as he did not like the disruption to his walk. Who was wrong? One of the traits of autism is that children need routine, his routine was broken and he lashed out. However, the priest couldn't accept that what my father was saying was true and interrogated him for about 5 minutes while my brother bit him in several places up his arm, and he was left with scars. This is not bad behaviour.

A neighbour who had been informed of my brother's condition asked her boyfriend to approach him because she was not happy with the amount of time he spent in the garden as she felt he was watching her. My brother was a teenager and enjoyed spending time on his swing. It was one of the only things that he could enjoy, as he can't read, doesn't understand TV, and is completely dependent on my parents as regards going places. Her boyfriend came over to tell him he was going to beat the **** out of him unless he stopped looking at his girlfriend. Luckily my father came out of the house to address the situation, as my brother hadn't a clue what he was saying. Once again, I thought this type of person had been left in the 90s.

The Gardai called at our house about my brother's grunting as they were doing a standard walk around our area and demanded to know what was going on. Once again, it took them quite some time to accept that my brother had special needs, as he looks like everybody else.

Teenagers have circled my dad walking with my brother calling them gay, and my dad a paedophile as my dad had to hold my brothers hand on walks (when he was a teenager) as he had no understanding of roads.

I could name several other incidences.

My parents have been martyrs over the years. Special needs provision in this country is severely underfunded. In fact, it was a disgrace in the good times, so I don't know what it's going to be like for the next few years. The parents of these children have to deal with these noises and distubances every day, every week, every year. Everyone has a right to grieve. A child grunting is not the same as a crying baby. I can't believe that there are people who are so ignorant that they would equate the two. People should not have to hide their children with special needs. I hope nobody here who criticised these people ever have a child with special needs.

I completely disagree with the OP, but this comment made about the people in a restaurant is beyond comprehension. Think about someone else for a change. It was thinking like yours that caused some of the worst attrocities in human history.

99% of you post has nothing to do with this seanario/ there is no movement against people with special needs being vocalised here. no one is talking about stoping SN children going to places like schools or restaurants or any of that other stuff.

this isnt an issue about special needs, its specifically about a fueneral and having some respect for a family mourning thier loved one by taking some action to stop something that is clearly upsetting people. its called "Thinking about someone else "

omega666

Nuggles wrote: »

I always found funerals to be an inclusive event in Irish community. Something that brings families together. All members of a family.

I don't think the OP has a right to exclude ANYONE from a funeral. It might have meant a lot to the mother to have her child there with her. And I don't think it's fair that she should have been denied the right to be there by anyone. Even if her son's presence was a nuisance to some people.

My grandmother died last year. And her very elderly sister wanted to attend, despite advice not to due to her frailty. But we didn't deny her that. We went out of our way to make sure she could attend, and she interrupted the wake at one point because she felt ill. But not one person complained. Because we were all glad that she could be included.

I think the OP needs to see the big picture here, and realise that a funeral, isn't about a perfectly choreographed ceremony, it's about saying goodbye and mourning a loss. And that's what they should have focused on instead of a person making some noise in the church.

its all depends on the amount of noise being made.
for example. if your sitting in front of a baby that is crying at the top of thier lungs you can be sure there is no way you can focus with that going on.

if the parent didnt take that child out and decided to let them cry away im pretty sure theres not a single person here that wouldnt get irratated and say something eventually.

Nuggles

A crying baby is a temporary phrase in someone's life. A person can deal with that on rare occasions if they feel the need to. A woman with a special needs child shouldn't have to live like she has a permanently screaming baby.

Nor should her son be treated like that. He makes noise a lot of the time, that's who he is, he cant help that. Not should he be excluded because he can't help it.

Everyone has habits other people don't like. Both special needs and otherwise. You learn to put up with them. And you learn to deal with them, when you know a person can't help doing it. You do not punish them for it.

Cheap Thrills!

Having read Op's update there I think emotion was high and perhaps the Mam with the SN son might have been hurried and pressured, got to the church on time and sat in the next available seat perhaps...maybe THEN the church filled up and they didn't want to cause fuss moving, who knows....

Whatever the cause I really think a special needs parent and child should be recognised as something totally apart from 'disruptive' -that word in this thread I object to. If someone is grunting and making INVOLUNTARY noises...they are not trying to disrupt anyone. In fact many SN people are aware of these things and may feel even more anxious in turn.

I think this was just an unfortunate incident, I think the Mam was already possibly feeling self conscious and the ideal thing to do would be to zen it out. The person doesn't mean to upset anyone, maybe they made a mistake not moving but as has been said humanity twords them would show greater respect for the person whose funeral it was.