Special needs kid at funeral

Taltos

So let's get this right.

You were at a funeral.
Another woman also was at a funeral - and she is related to the deceased too.
Woman brought her child - who is also related - and age is undisclosed.

Child however is one of the special children (ring any bells yet).
Has a physical manifestation where they make noises - possibly grunting - continually - and uncontrollably. Nothing they, the mother or the doctors can do to lessen or stop this. However, the mother wants her child to grow up as normal as the child can be, so chooses to bring them to the funeral.
(We don't know if she tried sitters, carers or anything else that is legally available).

Next while she grieved - a relation unable to hear the reading berated her.
Wow. Great show of tolerance, christian love and understanding.
Forget about apologising - instead go to confession and let the priest know how you treated one of God's special children...

Look - personally I am not that fond of kids - especially noisey ones. However, where children/adults have a condition like this that all changes - my normal distaste and feelings of impatience go away. Just 2 or 3 years ago I was at a movie in the States - the last Batman one with a work colleague - I know - not a funeral -but similarly there was a young chap there with a similar complaint - all through the movie - he was making gutteral noises - but so what - he had as much right as me to be there and I tuned him out. However - some of his peers took it on themselves to start berating him and telling him to shut up. I was shocked - and we left that cinema thinking the worse of these "crass American teenagers" - so thanks - you have just releveled my view of the Americans I saw that day and confirmed that we Irish are just the same. Intolerant and unable to just get on with each other - no matter our differences.

This is not PC - just common decency folks and those that cannot see that everyone has a right to live and go to funerals / cinemas even if they have a condition where they make noise or "distract us" - well maybe you should think back to the 30s in mainland Europe to see how far your views want to push this society. <sigh>

Tristram

Taltos wrote: »

So let's get this right.

You were at a funeral.
Another woman also was at a funeral - and she is related to the deceased too.
Woman brought her child - who is also related - and age is undisclosed.

Child however is one of the special children (ring any bells yet).
Has a physical manifestation where they make noises - possibly grunting - continually - and uncontrollably. Nothing they, the mother or the doctors can do to lessen or stop this. However, the mother wants her child to grow up as normal as the child can be, so chooses to bring them to the funeral.
(We don't know if she tried sitters, carers or anything else that is legally available).

Next while she grieved - a relation unable to hear the reading berated her.
Wow. Great show of tolerance, christian love and understanding.
Forget about apologising - instead go to confession and let the priest know how you treated one of God's special children...

Look - personally I am not that fond of kids - especially noisey ones. However, where children/adults have a condition like this that all changes - my normal distaste and feelings of impatience go away. Just 2 or 3 years ago I was at a movie in the States - the last Batman one with a work colleague - I know - not a funeral -but similarly there was a young chap there with a similar complaint - all through the movie - he was making gutteral noises - but so what - he had as much right as me to be there and I tuned him out. However - some of his peers took it on themselves to start berating him and telling him to shut up. I was shocked - and we left that cinema thinking the worse of these "crass American teenagers" - so thanks - you have just releveled my view of the Americans I saw that day and confirmed that we Irish are just the same. Intolerant and unable to just get on with each other - no matter our differences.

This is not PC - just common decency folks and those that cannot see that everyone has a right to live and go to funerals / cinemas even if they have a condition where they make noise or "distract us" - well maybe you should think back to the 30s in mainland Europe to see how far your views want to push this society. <sigh>

Why are you rewriting the OP's post to suit your point? You don't know the details any better than the rest of us and the OP hasn't clarified them. So you had a shocking experience at a cinema in the States? Sorry to hear that.

metrovelvet

Im finding this kind of difficult to get. I understand the need for respect and protocol during a religious ceremony.

At the same time, mourning, grief is a time when we are acutely reminded of our [each other's] humanity and vulnerabilities. It is a time when life is affirmed through having lost a beloved. Surely there is room for the imperfections of life, the insistence of life at a funeral mass?

Children, special needs or not are part of our lives, part of the community and seriously, should be included. To ask them to leave a fineral mass, takes on a bigger significance, as if it to say, you dont belong here, you are not part of the community.

I remember one time after the priest said his homily, my two year old yelled out "ee I ee I owwww!". What do you want me to do? Put tape on his mouth and shut him up? Should he have been excluded from his religious community for that?

Would you have asked an elderly relative with alzheimers to leave too?

sexdwarf

OP funerals are open events, they are for everyone to attend, regardless of disability. I think you were very wrong to tell this woman to move/take out her child. Don't you think that interruption disturbed her and her child in their grief? He was hardly making these sounds for his own amusement. I am really shocked at the amount of people saying that you were dead right to say something.

Didn't you think that perhaps this woman had enough on her plate without you sticking your beak in to give out about her special needs child making some noises? Should the child be excluded and left at home for every family event, in case he makes some gutteral noises?

It's one thing to leave a screaming baby at home, they are not aware of the exclusion, but did it not cross your mind how this child would feel or that he may perfectly well understand that he is being singled out because he's different?

Cheap Thrills!

A special needs child/person is not the same as a crying baby or an undisciplined child who is being let run riot.

That SN child will likely be the exact same when they grow up, making involutary noises then too.....would it be appropriate to ask a SN adult to go out of the church merely because they were annoying you....of course not.

I think it was very off colour to approach the mother, she is probably pig sick of being treated like a nuisance wherever she goes. The child is a PERSON who had the right to be there and mourn too.

Perhaps the best way to think of it is, if the person in the coffin was able to see what was going on what would they want.....would they allow a special needs child and parent to be ostracised and stigmatised in their name....?

Unlikely.

I have no tolerance for parents who allow their kids be bratty and uncontrolled in such events but this is totally different. The noises are involuntary and the person will always be making them, thats who the child is. My mother is sick and coughs alarmingly loudly and her breathing would be disturbing to listen to...should she be excluded from a funeral because this might distract someone ??

Your right to mourn is no greater than anyone elses......I know at times of grief emotions are high but picking on this child was the wrong thing to do.

gimme5minutes

What people need to remember is that this is a funeral. You get one chance at it. It is supposed to mark a person's entire lifetime. It's just not acceptable to have it ruined for everyone because one person has to bring their SN child who they know is extremely disruptive. The OP couldn't even hear the readings it was that bad. That is a complete joke. Respect for the deceased is of utmost importance in a funeral, it outweighs the need to be accomodating to a SN child.

Think about it, if this was one of your own parents/siblings funerals, how would feel if you couldn't even hear what was going on because of someone being extremely disruptive. An emotional ceremony marking their whole lives being completely ruined...I would not be happy about that at all.

It is about the only situation I can imagine where I would have a problem with a disruptive SN child. It's not about discrimination, it's about practicality, it's not practical to bring an extremely disruptive SN child to what is the most important and sombre ceremony of all.

gimme5minutes

Taltos wrote: »

So let's get this right.

You were at a funeral.
Another woman also was at a funeral - and she is related to the deceased too.
Woman brought her child - who is also related - and age is undisclosed.

Child however is one of the special children (ring any bells yet).
Has a physical manifestation where they make noises - possibly grunting - continually - and uncontrollably. Nothing they, the mother or the doctors can do to lessen or stop this. However, the mother wants her child to grow up as normal as the child can be, so chooses to bring them to the funeral.
(We don't know if she tried sitters, carers or anything else that is legally available).

Next while she grieved - a relation unable to hear the reading berated her.
Wow. Great show of tolerance, christian love and understanding.
Forget about apologising - instead go to confession and let the priest know how you treated one of God's special children...

Look - personally I am not that fond of kids - especially noisey ones. However, where children/adults have a condition like this that all changes - my normal distaste and feelings of impatience go away. Just 2 or 3 years ago I was at a movie in the States - the last Batman one with a work colleague - I know - not a funeral -but similarly there was a young chap there with a similar complaint - all through the movie - he was making gutteral noises - but so what - he had as much right as me to be there and I tuned him out. However - some of his peers took it on themselves to start berating him and telling him to shut up. I was shocked - and we left that cinema thinking the worse of these "crass American teenagers" - so thanks - you have just releveled my view of the Americans I saw that day and confirmed that we Irish are just the same. Intolerant and unable to just get on with each other - no matter our differences.

This is not PC - just common decency folks and those that cannot see that everyone has a right to live and go to funerals / cinemas even if they have a condition where they make noise or "distract us" - well maybe you should think back to the 30s in mainland Europe to see how far your views want to push this society. <sigh>

Big difference between a Batman movie and a funeral for your parent/sibling.

sexdwarf

gimme5minutes wrote: »

What people need to remember is that this is a funeral. You get one chance at it. It is supposed to mark a person's entire lifetime. It's just not acceptable to have it ruined for everyone because one person has to bring their SN child who they know is extremely disruptive. The OP couldn't even hear the readings it was that bad. That is a complete joke. Respect for the deceased is of utmost importance in a funeral, it outweighs the need to be accomodating to a SN child.

Think about it, if this was one of your own parents/siblings funerals, how would feel if you couldn't even hear what was going on because of someone being extremely disruptive. An emotional ceremony marking their whole lives being completely ruined...I would not be happy about that at all.

It is about the only situation I can imagine where I would have a problem with a disruptive SN child. It's not about discrimination, it's about practicality, it's not practical to bring an extremely disruptive SN child to what is the most important and sombre ceremony of all.

What about respect for the living, namely the most vulnerable people in our society? This child is who he is and deserves to be treated with as much respect as anyone else. Having special needs in a church is not inherently 'disrepectful'. He is as entitled as any other person to be in that church. He was NOT being disrespectful, neither was his mother by allowing him to attend this ceremony, which as you say, is a very important one to relations - of which he is one. And from my own point of view I would have no problem with anyone bringing their special needs child to a relative's funeral. We shouldn't forget to show love and respect to our living relatives as well as the ones who have passed away.

Communicationb

We had a local priest (an old school Canon) since deceased.

If he was saying Mass and a child, baby etc was making too much noise, he would stop the Mass and walk down to the noise and ask them to leave in no uncertain terms. Highly embarrassing....but effective:o

Nobody had any problem with this as far as I could tell...in fact locals welcomed it.

While I am not a regular church goer, I do wonder sometimes about people who parade in with 4-5 young kids in tow plus maybe an infant in their arms...screaming kids for the next 45 mins (you know the type every Parish has at least 1 such family). Why do the whole family need to go at the same time. Surely the parents could split them up between Masses. But anyway...

Android 666

gimme5minutes wrote: »

Big difference between a Batman movie and a funeral for your parent/sibling.

How do you know its for a parent or sibling? She never stated that. The point that he is making is relevant. Most people would show some tolerance on the day and make an effort to tune out the SN child. The OP is the only one in the church who seems to have shown complete intolerance and asked her to leave. It would have been a stressful situation for the mother as it was without someone coming up to berate them for attending the funeral and asking them to leave. There's nothing PC about being appalled by the OP's behaviour. Its about common decency and allowing everyone to be treated equally. Maybe that's too much for some people, I don't know, but I must admit I felt a bit sickened by reading the original post.

LegacyUser

I think people tend to get very PC about these things. The majority of the group of people grieveing at a funeral of a close relative were disrupted by one SN child who is a very distant relative to the point where they were unable to even hear the priest speak at the mass - why is it fair for one child to upset sand disrupt several people? Would it not have been basic sense and manners for the mother to take her child outside until the ceremony had ended? It is not like she was asked to leave for the day just to show a bit of consideration for the grieving family. And yes I would feel the same about a screaming child or baby - if your baby is screaming loudly, and yes it is what babies do, to the point that no one could hear anything else would it not be manners to go outside and try and quiet it down? I think sometimes people with babies or SN kids think that their rights and opinions outweigh everyone elses and that is an unfair attitude. The whole group at a funeral should not have to suffer just so that the mother of the child causing the constant disruption is not offended by the suggestion that she go outside for a few minutes.

I was in a restaurant the other day and a family with a special needs woman were there. When this woman was paid attention to and included in their conversation she was fine. However when they would not pay attention to her she would grunt at the top of her voice. At one point this got so loud we could barely here and just wanted to leave. What I could not understand though was why the family were ignoring this poor woman - she was getting louder and louder and more distressed? They went from talking to her to ignoring her and did not seem to give a damn about the consequences. Why bring her to a restaurant with them to ignore her and let her get upset? The other patrons of the restaurant had paid to be there only to not be able to hear a thing because this family felt it was okay to ignore this woman and allow her to disrupt everyone else.

MagicSean

Android 666 wrote: »

How do you know its for a parent or sibling? She never stated that. The point that he is making is relevant. Most people would show some tolerance on the day and make an effort to tune out the SN child. The OP is the only one in the church who seems to have shown complete intolerance and asked her to leave. It would have been a stressful situation for the mother as it was without someone coming up to berate them for attending the funeral and asking them to leave. There's nothing PC about being appalled by the OP's behaviour. Its about common decency and allowing everyone to be treated equally. Maybe that's too much for some people, I don't know, but I must admit I felt a bit sickened by reading the original post.

So they should be treated equally but different? If it was a normal kid making noise would it be ok to ask them to leave?

sexdwarf

k_mac wrote: »

So they should be treated equally but different? If it was a normal kid making noise would it be ok to ask them to leave?

As far as I'm concerned it's not ok to ask anyone to leave. If you attend a public event that's open to all, you'll just have to accept what comes with it. The church encourages people to bring families and have their children christened as babies so they're accepting the consequences of bringing children into the church. The congregation is well aware of this and can't start demanding that certain people get out because they're 'bothering' them.

Communicationb

I dont see anything wrong with saying to someone that their child (SN needs or not) is interfering or distracting other people. In fact I think in Ireland we are far too quiet on such matters.

Asking her to leave might have been a bit OTT. She could have said that the child is very distracting, is there anything that can be done? Maybe the mother could have got the hint...but I doubt it.

Even though the OP might have been the only one who said anything, I am pretty sure othe people there would have commented and bitched behind the mother's back in that typical Irish way we have. Whether you agree or not, at least the OP said it to her face. Some parents of SN children I know tend to very Bolshie and have a "F**k You" attitude.

If it had been a regular Mass or Wedding there would have been more tolerance but if you are very upset at a funeral mass for a close friend/relative and you a have a SN child screaming next to you, I would certainly say something.

Quiet frankly, I think the parent was inconsiderate, she must have known appreciated that her child was making a lot of noise and distracting other Mass goers. But yet she brazened it out...very selfish.

sexdwarf

Communicationb wrote: »

If it had been a regular Mass or Wedding there would have been more tolerance but if you are very upset at a funeral mass for a close friend/relative and you a have a SN child screaming next to you, I would certainly say something.

In fairness the OP never said that the child was screaming

LegacyUser

I think people are being way too pc on this one. I have a special needs godson and we would never dream of not bringing him to occasions such as these but you have to think of the people around when you're at a funeral. What about the mother?, if she knows this is how the child will react in this situation she should have made some effort to move away from the front to allow fellow mourners to grieve. Yes it doesn't seem fair but at a funeral I think accommodations should be made. To be honest I don't the question of whether you were right or wrong will ever be answered.

Android 666

sexdwarf wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned it's not ok to ask anyone to leave. If you attend a public event that's open to all, you'll just have to accept what comes with it. The church encourages people to bring families and have their children christened as babies so they're accepting the consequences of bringing children into the church. The congregation is well aware of this and can't start demanding that certain people get out because they're 'bothering' them.

I don't think know. I think I've seen the light since reading k_mac's post. We should exclude special needs children from all funerals. Actually wait, we should exclude all children (What was I thinking?!). Also I think we should exclude old people too because sometimes they can be a bit shaky and its very distracting and they can be very slow going to communion (also its not very PC to say this but sometimes they smell as well). Fat people as well should be excluded because God knows how uncomfortable it can be sitting beside one of them. Tall people should be kept out because sometimes they can block your view of the pulpit. Once all that is taken care of, I think we'll be able to grieve in comfort.

Red Alert

To begin with, bold children are different, I have no tolerance for them (or their parents for that matter). I regularly encounter spoiled brats and unsuitable spineless parents who are afraid to discipline their children and who have no regard for the rest of society in the gym I go to. However, there's no similarity here.

This kid (or adult, we don't know) is disabled, he could be frightened in an unfamiliar surrounding like a strange church, to him his behavior is normal. It's as normal as you or I yawning or sighing. His mum sounds like a really great woman: she's devoting a large part of her life to caring for him and making him feel a part of society. A normal part of that is to go to funerals, weddings etc. of his own family. It certainly can't be easy for her because I'm sure she knows people notice him. And I think you were really out of line asking her to make him leave. People with special needs have feelings, can you imagine what he'd have felt like if he'd had to leave? His mum having to say that he wasn't good enough to be in a church? If you're so concerned about the atmosphere he was disturbing in the church, why not think about the following line from scripture: "What you do to the least of these, you do to me".

A priest who I've the greatest of respect for, who has many times spoken out about the church's behavior at mass, one time brought up the issue of people with special needs. He said he is delighted when he sees anyone with special needs at mass, in a church or out enjoying themselves as best they can in society. Because, he said, we have finally come out of the horrible era of people who were intellectually disabled being locked up and out of circulation. Does your attitude promote this?

And just a question for the OP: How would you have treated somebody else, like an older member of the family who had developed something like dementia in old age? Would you similarly ask them to leave to give silence?

Android 666

sunflower27 wrote: »

I agree, well said.

Also wholeheartedly agree. The most eloquent post on the matter so far.

Communicationb

sexdwarf wrote: »

In fairness the OP never said that the child was screaming

Ok..making load noises and grunts...sorry.

Dudess

Some people are obsessed with telling others they're being "PC" - maybe you should consider that it's nothing to do with being PC (much of which is about keeping up a particular appearance) and more to do with being understanding of the mother who may not have had any choice but to bring her child to the funeral?

Taltos

sunflower27 wrote: »

Never in my wildest dreams would I consider asking someone to leave a funeral because their special needs child was interrupting the service in a way they could not control.

You have all made the effort to go and grieve and it isnt like every word is vital - it's the solidarity in being there and showing respect.

Am gobsmacked anyone would even consider doing this.

More shocked at the numbers advocating the ops actions. Truly stunning.
What has happened to treating others as you want to be treated. Since when is how you feel more important than the other person. I mean - seriously ...

liah

This thread is very upsetting to read, imo.

I don't understand how you can hold something like that against a child with special needs. They can't control what they're doing. And now you're ostracising both him and his mother, for what? For not being able to hear words?

Do you have any idea what they must go through every day? Rude comments, stares, not being welcome in public places like restaurants, movie theatres, and evidently the church. All because of a few noises that neither of them have any control over.

Do you have any idea how hard that must be for his mother? Any idea, at all? She's the one who has to deal with it. Every single day of her life, for the rest of her life. Who on earth are you to tell her she can't try to bring up her son as normal as possible? Not even to preserve his sanity, but her own, too? And yes, that includes possibly offending you for one single day so she can pay her respects.

They had every right to be there, same as you did. They wanted to mourn, same as you did. You had no right to confront them at a funeral. A funeral isn't about the words said, it's about having respect for the person that's passed-- you didn't. You were far too concerned with your own ears.

Communicationb

sunflower27 wrote: »

I know. It beggars belief. If I had been the woman with the child, I'd have been positively furious - and would have made a point of saying so after the service.

OP has no right saying who and who should not attend the funeral. I mean, if someone had a runny nose and was sneezing continuously, would they too have been asked to leave?

it's about showing respect to the deceased and in my opinion, OP, you showed none at all.

Ooo...get off your high horse. Who are you decide about respective "rights"?

The OP was at a funeral, was very upset to be mourning the loss of a close relative and there was a SN child nearby making such a noise that the OP felt compelled to ask her leave. I am sure she didnt want to do that, or makes a habit of it.

Posters (who were not there and have no understanding of the emotion or tension that was in the air) are very quick to jump down the throat of the OP...having a SN child making noises and grunts was hardly helping the situation

As someone said earlier, the situation was prob distressing for the child as it was a strange setting....well if that was the case, the child should not have been subjected to that distressing state by the mother.

IMO...the mother of the SN child showed no respect for the other mourners having her child there making such a racket and clearly quiet prepared to brazen it out.

Nobody else here was at that funeral so give over the pious indignation. It's nauseating quiet frankly.

Nevyn

Can we please all becareful of insulting other posters and posting in a manner which is not helpful.

littlebug

You don't know that the child was distressed.

What about the child? I wonder how he felt being asked to leave a Church for something he has no control over anymore than the colour of his skin. Most people here are assuming the child didn't understand what was going on. His mother will have been well aware of his level of understanding and I would suspect that's why she acted so defensively.

ztoical

liah wrote: »

This thread is very upsetting to read, imo.

I don't understand how you can hold something like that against a child with special needs. They can't control what they're doing. And now you're ostracising both him and his mother, for what? For not being able to hear words?

Do you have any idea what they must go through every day? Rude comments, stares, not being welcome in public places like restaurants, movie theatres, and evidently the church. All because of a few noises that neither of them have any control over.

Do you have any idea how hard that must be for his mother? Any idea, at all? She's the one who has to deal with it. Every single day of her life, for the rest of her life. Who on earth are you to tell her she can't try to bring up her son as normal as possible? Not even to preserve his sanity, but her own, too? And yes, that includes possibly offending you for one single day so she can pay her respects.

They had every right to be there, same as you did. They wanted to mourn, same as you did. You had no right to confront them at a funeral. A funeral isn't about the words said, it's about having respect for the person that's passed-- you didn't. You were far too concerned with your own ears.

I don't think it's as black and white as everyone is making out....a funeral is not an every day event and people react differently to grief. You don't know what comfort the OP would get from the words of the service.....did nothing for me at my fathers funeral but I know they meant alot of other members of my family. The OP has stated this wasn't a close relative so I don't understand why they didn't sit near the back of the church....it's nothing to do with the child's needs or not, it would be common sense frankly for anyone with children esp if they aren't close relatives. If I was attending the funeral of a distant relative and had a child with me, SN needs or no, I would sit near the back of the church in case I needed to step outside with them for a whole pile of reasons - they need the bathroom, they need a drink, etc etc

meditraitor

I'm with the OP on this one, special needs or not if the child is making a racket enough to prevent the congregation hearing the mass then they should not be there.

Communicationb

ztoical wrote: »

I don't think it's as black and white as everyone is making out....a funeral is not an every day event and people react differently to grief. You don't know what comfort the OP would get from the words of the service.....did nothing for me at my fathers funeral but I know they meant alot of other members of my family. The OP has stated this wasn't a close relative so I don't understand why they didn't sit near the back of the church....it's nothing to do with the child's needs or not, it would be common sense frankly for anyone with children esp if they aren't close relatives. If I was attending the funeral of a distant relative and had a child with me, SN needs or no, I would sit near the back of the church in case I needed to step outside with them for a whole pile of reasons - they need the bathroom, they need a drink, etc etc

Well that's it.

I have often in the past seen SN adults and children leaving Mass early when they get too distressed. The parents usually sit at the edge of seats so they have quick access. Same goes for babies and young children. Not a problem.

Having a sombre event like a funeral is not the place for SN children (or adults) to be making load and consistant noises throughout the ceremony.

But maybe the mother cldnt get a babysitter and had no choice...who knows...

Neyite

Communicationb wrote: »

the situation was prob distressing for the child as it was a strange setting....well if that was the case, the child should not have been subjected to that distressing state by the mother.

the op did not say that the SN kid was distressed. so you are surmising here.

i know lots of disabled (mental and physical) people and the only thing that is distressing about this situation is being asked ot leave a public place. they might be special needs, but ffs, they know very well when they are asked to get lost.