Reactions to your atheism/defection

ColmDawson

An American with whom I used to be very good friends (we haven't been in touch as much in recent years) was asking me the other week about my defection and my lack of faith. She used to be an atheist, but as she put it "grew up" and is now very involved with her local Episcopalian church.

She seems in many ways to be relatively realistic about religion ("not some dude in the sky with gold paved roads and burning bushes") but in other respects not. She said there's nothing wrong with the Bible (this puzzles me, as she is currently in a relationship with another woman).

When she asked me what I believed in, I said "Nothing" and she called me a liar. She claims vague stuff like "everybody believes in something. some people believe in love, some believe in beauty, some god". This, to me, makes no sense. I don't need to believe in beauty — it's tangible.

A couple more snippets:
"you do understand that atheists can not believe in love, by definition? or beauty, or hope"
"you wear your lack of faith like a badge. that's not something to be proud of."

I don't mind talking about religion to religious people, but I felt she was rude and condescending. The whole thing was especially dismaying because it was someone to whom I used to be very close.

Anyone else have any similar experiences with old/current friends or family, where you felt like you couldn't have a reasonable and respectful discussion on the topic anymore?

GLaDOS

Thankfully it's not really an issue for me, nearly all people I know are either atheist/agnostic or lapsed catholic. Either way, not believing in god isn't seen as anything particularly unusual.

eoin5

No offence, but your friend seems very mixed up. The burning bushes were in the bible!

Anyways I've not had that kind of experience, but if one of my friends started to throw my atheism in my face like that I'd do the same back with whatever creed they decided to go for. It might seem cruel but with those kind of statements coming your way fighting fire with fire might be the only way to keep a mutual respect.

Blackhorse Slim

ColmDawson wrote: »

An American ...

There's your problem

ColmDawson

eoin5 wrote: »

No offence, but your friend seems very mixed up. The burning bushes were in the bible!

Anyways I've not had that kind of experience, but if one of my friends started to throw my atheism in my face like that I'd do the same back with whatever creed they decided to go for. It might seem cruel but with those kind of statements coming your way fighting fire with fire might be the only way to keep a mutual respect.

Yeah, mixed-up is right. I was pretty tempted to give as good as I got (especially after the 'liar' thing) but it wouldn't really have accomplished anything. I was pretty pissed off though.

Dades

She sounds a wee bit insecure.

Zillah

ColmDawson wrote: »

She claims vague stuff like "everybody believes in something. some people believe in love, some believe in beauty, some god".

I loathe this woman with the heat of a thousand suns.

Agricola

In any discussions Ive had, Ive encountered two kinds of 'religious people'. Those that just treat it as a tradition that must be adhered to but are otherwise very wishy washy about the importance of the finer points of their faith. I can get on fine with these people cos I accept that most people just want to get along and have no desire to buck a trend.

Then there are the real faith heads who think that "ya have to ya abit of belief or theres no point in getting up in the morning"!
Ive heard this kind of tripe on numerous occasions and it always strikes me how insecure about their own precious beliefs these people come across as. Its normally impossible to have a frank discussion with them. I imagine its because they know that when you get down to brass tacks, their religion is based on very shaky foundations which doesnt stand up to any sort of scrutiny. As a result theres always in siege mentality when it comes to non believers.

strobe

I can only speculate but to me it sounds like she at some time before her conversion was bombarded with the stuff she is now bombarding you with by someone. She cracked under the assault, so she presumes you will also.

If she's that good a friend than say out flat "listen if we discuss this we are only going to fall out, so let's steer clear of religion", that's if you want to remain freinds with her. Anyone that posts on this forum knows how irrational and/or uneducated on the topic a religious person can be when discussing either atheism or their own religion, and I have found that goes double for adult converts to a religion.

PeterIanStaker

The American version of Christianity is far more "agressive" intolerant and hateful to those it percieves as "different" (atheists, Gays, other religions etc) nearly than what we have over here. Some of the more fundamentalist Baptists for exzample, would make Paisley in his heyday look like a slack amateur.

ColmDawson

Zillah wrote: »

I loathe this woman with the heat of a thousand suns.

I laughed out loud.:D

It got worse; the next thing she said was "lauren told me she believes in the first few moments when she wakes up and the world is still a bit fuzzy".

*rage*

Zillah

Seriously, few things in the realm of civil discourse will evoke such irritation from me as the claim "We all have to have faith in something".

No I don't you insipid fool.

Rev Hellfire

Perhaps she doesn't really believe the toss she's throwing about, but rather is in the 'church' for communal and social benefits membership brings ?

She could also just be yanking your chain.

Dave!

Thankfully I don't know anybody like the woman described in the OP.

I'm sure I'll encounter one at some point though.

crotalus667

She sounds like is is trying to convince herself she is not going to go to hell , IMO sha has been sacred into belief , I have a great way of stopping these over enthusastic type's I simply ask if they have read the whole bible cover to cover (i have and i find most christians have not)

liamw

Zillah wrote: »

I loathe this woman with the heat of a thousand suns.

haha, I thought it said 'I loathe this woman with the heart of a thousand suns.' Either way, it's amazing

Malari

Zillah wrote: »

Seriously, few things in the realm of civil discourse will evoke such irritation from me as the claim "We all have to have faith in something".

No I don't you insipid fool.

This is the line I get (by proxy - she'd never say anything to me directly) from my boyfriend's mother. I don't think that response would be wise if she ever did say it to my face One can only dream...

Dades

Since nobody has done this yet I've "fixed" the offending remarks.

ColmDawson's Friend wrote: »

"everybody believes I believe in something. some people believe in love, some believe in beauty, some god".

"you do understand I've decided that atheists can not believe in love, by definition? or beauty, or hope"

"you wear your lack of faith like a badge. that's not something to be proud of my faith is threatened by people who don't share it."

Galvasean

Zillah wrote: »

I loathe this woman with the heat of a thousand suns.

Use this:

So the person in the OP believes that there is "Nothing wrong with the Bible" despite being in a homosexual relationship?
What you do is, tell her that you want to hear her out. Decide on a nice, cosy Bible reading, because you wanna see what it's all about. Open up a 'random' section of the Bible, oh, lets say Leviticus and go from there...

Daemonic

ColmDawson wrote: »

I laughed out loud.:D

It got worse; the next thing she said was "lauren told me she believes in the first few moments when she wakes up and the world is still a bit fuzzy".

*rage*

What does that even mean???

Shenshen

I have to say that most people I know are more or less atheists themselves, despite all of them growing up Catholic.

That said, I've heard the arguments you listed, but thankfully only from relative strangers in online discussions. I always found the "even atheists believe in something, you believe that your mother loves you, don't you" kind of argument a rather pathetic grasping fro straws. The impression I got was that no matter what, the "believer" needs to bring the non-believer to his/her own level, for peace of mind. Very sad.

Also, I dislike people accusing atheists of being proud of their non-faith. Faith isn't something to be proud of, either.

lynski

ColmDawson wrote: »

When she asked me what I believed in, I said "Nothing" and she called me a liar. She claims vague stuff like "everybody believes in something. some people believe in love, some believe in beauty, some god". This, to me, makes no sense. I don't need to believe in beauty — it's tangible.

A couple more snippets:
"you do understand that atheists can not believe in love, by definition? or beauty, or hope"
"you wear your lack of faith like a badge. that's not something to be proud of."

I don't mind talking about religion to religious people, but I felt she was rude and condescending. The whole thing was especially dismaying because it was someone to whom I used to be very close.

Anyone else have any similar experiences with old/current friends or family, where you felt like you couldn't have a reasonable and respectful discussion on the topic anymore?

I have had it from a few people who cant believe we are not baptizing our children catholic and we are sending them to a ET school outside of our town. Most people cant believe we are going to go against the flow.
But worst is I got this from my sister! she can't believe i am atheist. Just cant get her head around it. kept telling me 'no you have to believe in something, your just saying that you don't' she genuinely couldn't contemplate a life without a believe system.
We had a long argument over a bottle of wine and i got quite insulted by the end because she was patronising me - she is younger too. I tried to tease out of her and my mother in law who was also there what they actually believed in and it was not very solid. When i suggested that they said they were catholic and they were complicit in all that was bad about that organisation because they subscribed to it they roundly rejected that idea. They could not see that their tacit support for the RCC meant they could continue in their various nefarious activities happy in the knowledge that they have members all over the world. they can batise their children, use the church for mass, communion etc, but also be supportive of gay marriage and reject the church teaching on that issue and others as suited them. I think your in your in, you buy the whole deal.

Shenshen

lynski wrote: »

I have had it from a few people who cant believe we are not baptizing our children catholic and we are sending them to a ET school outside of our town. Most people cant believe we are going to go against the flow.
But worst is I got this from my sister! she can't believe i am atheist. Just cant get her head around it. kept telling me 'no you have to believe in something, your just saying that you don't' she genuinely couldn't contemplate a life without a believe system.
We had a long argument over a bottle of wine and i got quite insulted by the end because she was patronising me - she is younger too. I tried to tease out of her and my mother in law who was also there what they actually believed in and it was not very solid. When i suggested that they said they were catholic and they were complicit in all that was bad about that organisation because they subscribed to it they roundly rejected that idea. They could not see that their tacit support for the RCC meant they could continue in their various nefarious activities happy in the knowledge that they have members all over the world. they can batise their children, use the church for mass, communion etc, but also be supportive of gay marriage and reject the church teaching on that issue and others as suited them. I think your in your in, you buy the whole deal.

While I haven't had any near as intense situations with my own friends and family, I did notice that the idea of living without a belief system seems scary to some people, and utterly unthinkable to yet others.
I don't have any problems with the second group. I do think that there is something in our brains that makes some people "need" and crave religion, while the concept barely interests others.
But I seriously dislike the crowd who believes out of fear, the ones who still didn't get why Pascal's Wager is utterly flawed. Just because you would like for something to be there doesn't make it so. And millions of people inventing their own gods doesn't increase the chances that the one you picked for worship will actually grant you some sort of cozy afterlife. Grow up.

jkl

Daemonic wrote: »

What does that even mean???

I believe it means Lauren misheard the question, or is bit touched.

jkl

Shenshen wrote: »

But I seriously dislike the crowd who believes out of fear, the ones who still didn't get why Pascal's Wager is utterly flawed.

Pascal's Wager holds true, assuming living a life dictated by religious laws / traditions has no downside.

I would dispute it having no downside.

GLaDOS

ColmDawson wrote: »

A
"you do understand that atheists can not believe in love, by definition? or beauty, or hope"

Believing in beauty? That's a bit superficial

jkl wrote: »

I would dispute it having no downside.

I'd say this entire forum would

magicbastarder

a common reaction i got was in relation to continuance of tradition, community spirit, etc.
i used to get pressure from one member of the family to go to christmas mass as a family thing, at which point i pointed out that it would make more sense to pressure a jew to go to a christian mass than to pressure an atheist to do the same; and that few people would put a jew in that position.

checkyabadself

When my father found out that I was sending off a letter to the bishop ( after hearing of the count me out campaign....ironically the bishops`address in Cork is redemption road) he was furious. He roared and shouted at me and said he wouldn`t have an atheist in his house as, "he raised me right". He then held his front door open and told me I was no longer welcome.

That was 3 months ago and we haven`t spoken since. I haven`t visited my parents house either, much to my mothers dissapointment. I reckon if she missed me enough she`d have a word with my father.
I`ve heard from my younger brother (20, I`m 25) that my father has been repeatedly making remarks when a news story is on the television about the RCC abuse, to the tune of... "thats got nothing to do with god" and that my brother (who is an atheist and gave me the tip off about countmeout.ie) to "keep the status quo as a non practicing cattholic, as you dont know how serious it is to make a big decision like leaving the church"

My father isn`t a mass going catholic but I`ve heard that he`s secretly spiritual and believes in an afterlife, which was a shock to me as he`s pretty liberal with regards homosexuals and contraception, etc, etc.
I never pegged him for a religious apologist, and it`s only in light of the topic of me wanting to not be counted amongst the numbers of the RCC,that I found out his true colours.
It really annoyed me though, that whilst not caring enough to practice your religion, even loosely, you`d have the gall to ban your own child from his house for actually being honest. I have to add, I didnt even tell him, or discuss it with him. I wasnt going to, it was when he heard I was doing it that he flipped. I initially told himto mind his own business.

The girl in the OP, is clearly selective in which parts of the bible she adheres to. I heartily laughed at Zillahs post.

strobe

checkyabadself wrote: »

That was 3 months ago and we haven`t spoken since. I haven`t visited my parents house either, much to my mothers dissapointment. I reckon if she missed me enough she`d have a word with my father.

I don't mean this to sound judgemental or anything man and I know it's none of my business, so tell me to fukk off if you want but maybe you should be the bigger man and visit. Your mother had nothing to do with how your father behaved and to expect her to try and force your father to back down on your behalf is pretty unfair on her. (and this goes completly against my whole I not wanting to sound judgemental thing, but it comes across very immature).

I don't think anyone can understand what it would be like to have your child refuse to some see you unless you have children of your own, but I think it's pretty easy to imagine how heartbroken your mother could be right now. Just think about is all.

ColmDawson

Checkyabadself, that's really awful.

Whatever about all the discussions we and theists have on here about theology and such, none of this should ever result in that kind of family breakdown.

checkyabadself

strobe wrote: »

I don't mean this to sound judgemental or anything man and I know it's none of my business, so tell me to fukk off if you want but maybe you should be the bigger man and visit. Your mother had nothing to do with how your father behaved and to expect her to try and force your father to back down on your behalf is pretty unfair on her. (and this goes completly against my whole I not wanting to sound judgemental thing, but it comes across very immature).

I don't think anyone can understand what it would be like to have your child refuse to some see you unless you have children of your own, but I think it's pretty easy to imagine how heartbroken your mother could be right now. Just think about is all.

No worries man, cheers for the advice/input. I`ve thought long and hard about visiting, and I can see how it may seem immature to overlook the grief it may be causing my mother. I make the effort to see her twice a week for lunch so it`s not as if I`m being a spoilt child and trying to make her or anyone suffer.
Even if I decided I`d visit, I`d never get an apology or even recognition that what he said ever happened. I`d imagine that he`d gloss over it like it never happened and then expect me to never bring it up as I now know how he feels on the subject. We`ve never had anything in common and he`s a drill sergeant (literally), so I`m not too bothered about it.
It`s kind of the last straw in a long line of him treating me like s*(t over the last few years, but thats a longer, off topic story.

ChocolateSauce

ColmDawson wrote: »

Anyone else have any similar experiences with old/current friends or family, where you felt like you couldn't have a reasonable and respectful discussion on the topic anymore?

No, thankfully. I don't really have any family, and all my friends are non-religious.

Ickle Magoo

ColmDawson wrote: »

Anyone else have any similar experiences with old/current friends or family, where you felt like you couldn't have a reasonable and respectful discussion on the topic anymore?

No, never. I thankfully have a family (both close and distant) who aren't particularly religious and the rest atheist, so it's never been an issue. I don't have any friends who are of the religious type that discussion is impossible - I've met a few people like that in real life - or those that mouth off about atheism or the child abuse that is raising your children without a religion - but perhaps unsurprisingly, I'm not drawn to be friends with them.

Flamed Diving

Dades wrote: »

She sounds a wee bit insecure.

Bingo. She is being very arrogant. And arrogance is just fear with an attitude.

liamw

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Bingo. She is being very arrogant. And arrogance is just fear with an attitude.

Dr Phil?

ColmDawson

I ought to point out that this person isn't representative of my friends' views. Most of them are atheist or agnostic (though a few reacted in a "Why would you bother defecting?" sort of way), my dad is an atheist and I think my mum is too. So I'm not doing too badly.

Flamed Diving

liamw wrote: »

Dr Phil?

Eww, is that where I heard that?

Galvasean

checkyabadself wrote: »

When my father found out that I was sending off a letter to the bishop ( after hearing of the count me out campaign....ironically the bishops`address in Cork is redemption road) he was furious. He roared and shouted at me and said he wouldn`t have an atheist in his house as, "he raised me right". He then held his front door open and told me I was no longer welcome.

That was 3 months ago and we haven`t spoken since. I haven`t visited my parents house either, much to my mothers dissapointment. I reckon if she missed me enough she`d have a word with my father.

That's seriously messed up. It's small wonder a lot more people don't 'come out' with their atheism.

Zillah

Zillah wrote: »

Seriously, few things in the realm of civil discourse will evoke such irritation from me as the claim "We all have to have faith in something".

No I don't you insipid fool.

Did you see the letter some plank wrote into the indo one day? "everyone has faith in something - for example when you are driving through a green light, you have faith that the other lights are red" Uh, no?


As for the thread itself, I haven't had any really but then I don't generally discuss my beliefs/lack thereof, and I wouldn't really classify myself as an atheist anyway. I always liked scofflaws "alatrist" term.
I like discussing religion itself now and then, and yeah sometimes I'll rant about it, but I won't bring it up unless in general terms.

My grandmother seems to be slowly giving up - I hope. My grandparents are both into religion.
She kept on about "don't you pray to god :eek:" until one day my grandfather announced in exasperation "she's an atheist!!"
Since then I've got:
"don't you want to get married in a church"
"why don't you pray to god after all he's given you"
"god will strike you down!"
"I have faith you'll return"

Most of the time I say no and bite my tongue at everything else, I don't really want to get into conversation about it as it's never going to get anywhere.
Mum has some sort of belief but also knows I don't want to chat about it. Of my friends, I think a good number are atheist.

checkyabadself

Galvasean wrote: »

That's seriously messed up. It's small wonder a lot more people don't 'come out' with their atheism.

It is a wonder alright. I`m really interested in this thread to hear of other peoples reactions, I wonder how many people who are in non practicing catholic families have actually spoken about it with their families.
I would hazard a guess that a lot of people who think their family "understand" or are aware of their belief, (or lack thereof) avoid the topic as it can be a really touchy subject that people are afraid to discuss, or indeed afraid of being judged by their answer to the question.
I, personally was shocked at my fathers reaction as I thought it was glaringly obvious I had no time for the church. I was never ranting about being an atheist or condescending towards anyone who chose to hold any belief system, but it was clear that I`m not a fan of being given a religion and expected to treat it as if it were a gene.
It just provoked massive offence when it was said aloud, as if he had no idea. It was as if he was content with me being a terrible catholic, as long as I (in his words) "kept the status quo and remained a non practicing catholic, you dont need to send a letter to the bishop, just do nothing".

Does anyone see straight off the mark, a typical reason or popular scenario on why he reacted like he did? I think it seems like fear due it being so ingrained in him to never challenge the church.

Dazd_N_Confusd

ColmDawson wrote: »

Checkyabadself, that's really awful.

Whatever about all the discussions we and theists have on here about theology and such, none of this should ever result in that kind of family breakdown.

Well actually it should.

If you believe in Heaven and that you have to live life a particular way to get to Heaven and then your child tells you he/she doesn't share your beliefs and therefore will burn in hell then I'd say that's a perfectly legitimate reason to have that kind of falling out with your family.

It's still crazy though!

sonicthebadger*

jkl wrote: »

Pascal's Wager holds true, assuming living a life dictated by religious laws / traditions has no downside.

And if you have selected the right god or gods to believe in of course!

bluewolf wrote: »

Did you see the letter some plank wrote into the indo one day? "everyone has faith in something - for example when you are driving through a green light, you have faith that the other lights are red" Uh, no?
...

Bikers are all A-red-light-ists. Always check, could be a cop car or just some jackass who missed the light talking on the phone.

taram

Grandparents: 'Do you want to come to mass?'
Me: 'Uh, no thanks, I don't believe in God'
Them: 'Ah jaysus, grand, stay here so and have a cuppa, we'll be back at 7'

Never was an issue again My mother and sister are agnostic, my dad's atheist, my boyfriend is agnostic but pretends he's Catholic for his mother's sake-so I'm dreading the day I turn around and tell her we're not getting married in a church or baptising the future babies. I imagine from the strenght in her faith and the fact she makes the 21 year old sibling who lives near by go to mass every week there's probably going to be words at some stage.

Only other people really were just a born again I used to work with, but thankfully she was quite dim so could easily talk my way around her so she'd end up confused about what she'd started off saying :P

Risteard

I haven't really experienced anything bad tbh. My father is agnostic as am I. When my friends found out they were pretty confused, as out of all of us, I was the one that went to mass regularly and I was the alter boy. But they all pretty much feel the same way even if they won't say it with regards to religion, we've discussed it after a few drinks once. I haven't told my mother but I'd say she's copped it tbh as I stopped going to mass and everything associated with the church. The only annoying reaction was from my religion teacher at school who seemed to smile in that way that suggested 'oh, you're only rebelling, it's a phase.'

fitz0

I've had no particularly adverse reactions. The only incident I can think of was after a few drinks I ended up discussing it with a few friends. One is quite religious (it was a surprise tbh) one is "spiritual(read:vague)" and the other was pretty much but just short of agnostic.

Being the only agnostic/atheist in the group it was put upon me to justify my position, rather than on the ones proposing something supernatural to support theirs. I'm embarrassed to say that I didn't make a very convincing argument at all seeing as how I was still feeling my way through the dark at the time. What arguments I could muster, I didn't articulate very well.

This week I'm working up the nerve to tell my parents that I'm officially defecting. I'm not 100% sure how they'll react. When I laid out my position as an atheist they didn't really take me seriously and I'm convinced they still think I'm a closet Catholic.

Glenster

checkyabadself wrote: »

Does anyone see straight off the mark, a typical reason or popular scenario on why he reacted like he did? I think it seems like fear due it being so ingrained in him to never challenge the church.

First off it's terrible that families fall out over anything and I really think if you want a relationship with your Father and Mother in the future you should go and see them, these things have a way of festering and before you know it the two of you are avoiding weddings and funerals and no-one wants that.


It seems that the two of you haven't clashed over religion before, and presumably you and your brother dont go to mass and that, so it seems strange to me that he had this reaction. Are you sure this isn't about something else? You've mentioned that you're bitter towards him for how he's treated you over the years, could there be unresolved issues there?


Your brother doesnt seem to be facing his wrath as much as you, which is odd seeing as he told you about the website (and presumably told your dad you were involved with it). Why is he being treated differently?


You use very dismissive language when talking about him (true colours, apologist, not caring enough, mind your own business, etc.) presumably that's just a reaction to how he treated you, and not how you'd usually talk to anyone in their own house.


If it is really just about you sending off that form, no-one could defend your dad, how he reacted makes no sense. Hopefully no-one else reacts like that.

ColmDawson

Glenster wrote: »

You use very dismissive language when talking about him (true colours, apologist, not caring enough, mind your own business, etc.) presumably that's just a reaction to how he treated you, and not how you'd usually talk to anyone in their own house.

To be honest, I think it would be fair enough.

checkyabadself

@glenster, I can see how it may seem all very teenage and petty, but I isn't. I was out in the parents house getting along great with the whole family, I went into the kitchen to make a cup of tea and my father came into the kitchen and found two countmeout forms upside down on the kitchen table. He went nuts and I was standing looking at him as if he had two heads.
I hadn't known about the forms on he table, as it was my brother who had printed them off.
After my initial, WTF are you on about? I told him I didn't print them off, but when he forced the discussion of the issue, I told him I was thinking about sending a form off without telling anyone because I wasn't doing it as a stunt, but because it accurately reflects how I wish to be not given catholic ceremony in the event of my death. I told him, "with respect, this is none of your business, I haven't questioned your beliefs and I don't feel that you've a right to disrespect me as this is a personal matter".

With regard to your comment about why my brother seems to have not received and grief over the matter, he has, he is just mentally tougher than me and told him to go and f@&k off, he'll do what he likes wig his life. I have no problem admitting I'd be the softer of the two of us. My brother is of the opinion that the father is who he is and he just ignores his comments.
Also, my brother has had a big arguement with him, as my father told him he is convinced that it was I who has put him up to the idea of defection. That really isn't the case, and it infuriated my brother, that our father can't accept that it was his idea and that he can think for himself.
I'd like to be able to put it behind me, but it really would take a discussion, or even an admission of wrong doing on his part. I know what he's like though, and if I called out today and didn't mention our last encounter, he would like that and just gloss over it and probably not mention the topic again.
With that being the case, I'd nearly accept that crushing level of injustice for the sake of my poor mother who misses myself, and probably more importantly my girlfriend, who get along really great. It really pains me to think that that would be the best I could hope for.
Thanks for yur help though, glenster.
-Will.

robindch

Glenster wrote: »

If it is really just about you sending off that form, no-one could defend your dad, how he reacted makes no sense. Hopefully no-one else reacts like that.

I've seen reactions which are fairly similar to that in my family. It hasn't got to the stage of people disowning each other as in checkyabadself's case, but it's got pretty close. It's certainly been many, many years since we had any large family gathering where somebody hasn't received two barrels in the face from the more religious of my family.

Given this, you'll perhaps understand why many people take a uniformly dim view of the religious ideologies that corrupt people in this way.

aidan24326

ColmDawson wrote: »

I laughed out loud.:D

It got worse; the next thing she said was "lauren told me she believes in the first few moments when she wakes up and the world is still a bit fuzzy".

*rage*

Lauren sounds barking mad tbh!

Glenster

checkyabadself wrote: »

Family stuff is hard man. Hope you get through it.