Making ourselves offishul

Jim

I've been thinking about this quite a lot since it was first brought up. Initially I thought it was a good idea, but had some concerns. My concerns are still there now, but additionally, I think the idea might be a little...unnecessary.

We are a community, whom at the moment does everything ourselves with no real organisation. We meet up for casuals just for fun and everyone chips in. Then further on if someone wants to organise a tourney? Awesome, organise it. If they need help then a lot of people are willing to pitch in. We need someone to mod the forums? We got that. I'll do the videos and put them up on youtube. Awesome stuff. etc etc. That's how things have been done.

Now, so far, there is nothing negative about this, it all works very well imo. So, what would be the need in having an organisation or society who would essentially oversee the goings on of the community. I mean, the chairperson, in reality what would he do? Decide what exactly? Events officer? Ok, we will have X amount of tournaments per month. Can he then tell someone else who wants to run a tourny that they can't (obviously they wouldn't). So if that officer doesn't have the "power" to stop people running stuff, then what is their function? To make sure tournys in general are organised? Atm Azza does Inferno, mr_kyle runs DS etc, so why change that? Works well as it is. Sure we could do with one more tournament in Dub (a 2v2 for instance), but we just need someone to take up the responsibility and do it.

If the purpose of the committee is to give people responsibilities so that more will get done, I don't really see that happening. The way things have worked so far is someone takes it upon themselves to do something, I don't see how giving people titles will get more done. The website for example. PPC asked a bunch of people if they'd be interested in doing something with the site, I said sure. Then did nothing for months until I got off my ass one day and started it. If PPC had said originally "Who wants to be the official society website guy?" I would have said no way. Although I am more than happy to do the site now. Having that "title" would make people expect something of me, I don't really want that heh.

Now, money is a big part in this. But I think Dreddy(?) has the money at the moment, and we're all pretty happy with that, and we're all in agreement on what we're getting from the money. I don't see why one person should have the final say in this.

Why do we need "members" if they're only function is to elect people to the above positions.

The reason this kind of structure is necessary in clubs and socs etc is because they are usually a small core group of people organising a society to serve its members. We are a large diverse community who serve ourselves. Things get done and we don't need a core official group to make decisions for us. I really don't see any issues we currently have that will be solves by having a committee.

Now, mentioned a few times has been XGC and how its basically ****. I agree totally. There is no real alternative either. The next step? Get somewhere ourselves. Hire out a building or a room somewhere and get the gear ourselves etc etc. Now, this is something which DOES require very strict organisation and a committee similar to the ones described above. But that is an individual case. If this were to happen then it would happen by (for example) 5 of us getting together and saying "Lets do this" and those 5 taking it upon themselves to get it organised, so they would obviously need organisation amongst themselves. And although they would essentially be running this venue, they wouldn't be running the community. They would be totally separate things.

I'm not trying to shoot this idea down, just voicing my concerns. Fair play to those who are taking it upon themselves to try and sort it out in the first place (that's what the community is all about!)

Jim

Also, I will totally edit and upload any tourney vids if you don't have the time Doom.

K.O.Kiki

I can't really see any need for more than Treasurer (holds money) and a committee to decide what to do with said money.

Orim

Great points Jim and you have articulated my own concerns about the venture. This why we need dicussion on this issue rather then jumping forward into.

I was going to multi-quote but I think that end too huge so I'l just make my own points.

I agree with you about the officers. I think the community taking it upon themselves to do everything is fantastic and removes the pressure from anyone that wants to do anything. However my problem would be things getting done with no planning. We don't need to have officers. We could simply have a meeting once a month to try discuss and organise what we are going to do in the future.

This also runs in Dooms point of not having authority to deal with cons or others from outside the community. I would think that any up-standing member of our community would have the authority to deal with anyone. For example, I got in touch with the Respawn Lan guys about the price. I don't see why this would be an issue. However at the same time it would nice if we had a definite person that we could direct people to and he could be our point of contact with the outside world.

With the planning meetings you could throw up a thread saying we would like to do x, y and z. Then people could take tasks on themselves as they wish to and feel they are able to complete them.

The money is not just an issue in accountability. It's an issue with getting it. It's been mentioned for weeks and has received "mumbling" support but it's still not standard practise and has not received any real debate from those that seem to have issues with it. This for me is the reason we need some kind of organisation behind us is to simple get a proper discussion of matters and get things decided and set in stone. If the "pot" system had been fully implemented when it was first brought up then we would probably have a hauppage or similar by now.

Tournaments are fine at the moment. But what if we want to try and run something bigger in the future? Multi games, proper advertising etc
This is something that would also need proper organisation. Maybe another committee for this? Maybe the same committee as runs our venue (which I would assume we would have by then). I don't know where I'm going with this point but I'm going to leave it up as I think it's valid towards something.

I think my main point is that we need some organisation but it doesn't have to be the five officers laid out by ayjay and they don't need to be in charge of and doing everything.

Doctor DooM

Orim wrote: »

1) I agree with you about the officers. I think the community taking it upon themselves to do everything is fantastic and removes the pressure from anyone that wants to do anything. However my problem would be things getting done with no planning. We don't need to have officers. We could simply have a meeting once a month to try discuss and organise what we are going to do in the future.

2) This also runs in Dooms point of not having authority to deal with cons or others from outside the community. I would think that any up-standing member of our community would have the authority to deal with anyone. For example, I got in touch with the Respawn Lan guys about the price. I don't see why this would be an issue. However at the same time it would nice if we had a definite person that we could direct people to and he could be our point of contact with the outside world.

On point 1:

We want to avoid replication of work, we don't want people wasting their time. I don't think think a commitee is going to sit there handing out orders but as you said they'd be good to facilitate meetings or whatever where we can try and get **** done.

Last year on boards, there was an attempt to write a christmas single. Despite a huge number of volunteers, nothing happened.

This was because despite there being loads of willing musicians offering to help.

There was no clear voice and no one making decisions so it all fell apart before it got anywhere.

It took about 6 months for someone to man up and look after SF.ie despite me repeatedly saying I couldn't do it and asking for help here.


How many times have I read someone asking for a second camera to be brought to the tournaments to record player reactions.

Stuff is getting done but it's getting done really slowly.

On point 2), of course I'd trust plenty of people here to do right by us in contacting the outside world. But it still doesn't change the fact of how much better it'd appear to the outside world if someone were able to go, "Hi, I am the man to come to about this."

It just needs to be a kernel of people that tries to get stuff done, is all.

Jim

Orim wrote: »

Tournaments are fine at the moment. But what if we want to try and run something bigger in the future? Multi games, proper advertising etc
This is something that would also need proper organisation. Maybe another committee for this? Maybe the same committee as runs our venue (which I would assume we would have by then). I don't know where I'm going with this point but I'm going to leave it up as I think it's valid towards something.

Yea, this is kinda what I was trying to say. If we wanted to run something big, as you were saying, its a matter of "I was thinking of doing this" and 4 other lads saying "I'll help" etc, then ye all get together and sort out the event and run it how ye want.

Orim

Jim wrote: »

Yea, this is kinda what I was trying to say. If we wanted to run something big, as you were saying, its a matter of "I was thinking of doing this" and 4 other lads saying "I'll help" etc, then ye all get together and sort out the event and run it how ye want.

I think the point I was trying to make, is that this is how things are running at the moment but everything goes that little bit slower because it's all about waiting for people to do things. Also I was trying to point out that having committees for various things is just a slower road to having an overall committee.

I'd also like to point that up until now we've had the mighty juggarnaut that is SFIV behind us. Super is going to reinvigorate that to a degree but after this we will lose momentum. Up until now we have grown based on that momentum but after this we will have to fight to continue to grow. Everything we've done lately is all geared towards growth I know but it's a point I want people to consider.

Jim

For sure I understand things are done slowly, but I still don't see how this would make things faster. If say we did have a committee, and they said "We need a website...ok, let's get someone who will do it, Jim seemed kinda interested....Hey Jim, we would like you to do the website" As I said, I would have declined (due to my own personal nature of being generally **** at getting things done). Any more volunteers? I don't see how having a committee will get more people to volunteer to do stuff. This is just an example.

In terms of making ourselves more "official" to the outside world...meh. This is just a personal thing, but I really don't like coming across as an "official" organisation....if you know what I mean. How would this benefit us with regard to the outside world? This isn't a company we're running, its just a community. If we were looking for sponsorship etc all it takes is someone taking it upon themselves to email places and show them how many people we have and how big we are. Thats all we need to be taken seriously.

If people are interested they will do the jobs, I don't see how a title will encourage them.

All we need for things to get done quicker is for people to be more enthusiastic about doing and voice their opinions and ideas a bit louder (in a positive way). People shouldn't need a committee or society (whatever you want to call it) to do this.

D4RK ONION

Doctor DooM wrote: »

On point 2), of course I'd trust plenty of people here to do right by us in contacting the outside world. But it still doesn't change the fact of how much better it'd appear to the outside world if someone were able to go, "Hi, I am the man to come to about this."

It just needs to be a kernel of people that tries to get stuff done, is all.

To back this point up, I present exhibit A




Rather than being able to say, oh yeah A, B or C deals with that, let me get you his Email address, we are instead directing a journalist to boards.ie, something which is already very much frowned upon.

Those arguing against the many positions must at least see the benefit of having a PR guy. As it stands, I think Chunkis or DooM would be our men for this

Jim

The issue at that I didn't have a contact email on the site. If I did, and he emailed me with whatever the proposal is, I would deal with it and let you guys know about it etc.

Also, don't see why directing a journalist to our forum on boards.ie is frowned upon? This is where our community is for the most part.

D4RK ONION

I mean journeys on boards.ie are generally frowned upon. Of course the exception is made in this forum. I'm simply saying that I think one guy for PR would help.

Owwmykneecap

I Agree with pretty much everything jim said

If someone wants to do an event, they dont need our permission. Say Azza decided to put on an event in a pub in june. It's up to him and anyone he asks to help to sort it out.
Then the community, as individuals, to decide whether it's for them or not.

I suppose i dont like the idea of people running the community and then people not wanting to take inititive.
You can run events and websites but i dont think anyone should "run" the community.

Also if people are getting contacts, then your probably qualified enough to answer them, as you've already done something to get them.

Doctor DooM

People don't need anyone's permission to do anything.


That doesn't help, however, when something isn't getting done.

Sagat06

Good post Jim I agree with most of what you said, this community has built up from peoples own enthusiasm and abilities. From day one people have been free and available with their own time and effort to get things done. And the fear from the outset is that the community side could be lost or diluted somehow.

But I think the concept of this committee is a good one. I would see it as a means to support and compliment the community. The way I'd see it is the committee would not be restrictive to anything anyone wants to do, but would consist of several members with ever increasing experience in particular areas like creating exposure, setting up tournaments etc. Who would then obviously lend this experience as they could whens its needed.

Like Doom has spoken about I think having someone you can direct things to helps aswell. Pointing people to a forum who have specific requests, like that journo, might be offputting.

As Jim mentioned also, money is an important factor in this. One point I would add to that is, we know and trust Dreddy but can we expect new people to?? probably, but I just think it needs to be asked. Also ownership, what if there is a falling out - who owns what??

Dreddybajs

I agree with sagat, as the person handling the money atm I'd quite like there to be some sort of recorded consensus that everyone is alright with that.

Jim

Just in case people thought otherwise, I'm wholly against the idea, and I hope I don't come across as being negative just for the sake of it, I'm just voicing my opinions and concerns. If you guys decide to go ahead with this (or something like this, whatever form it takes) I'll totally back it.

Sisko

This is all very interesting and important stuff.

The community really is one that is made up of people with different talents and ability's and experience in different areas. From the start I've always stepped back and looked on it as a whole entity and seeing the different elements individuals bring to it that alter and enhance this entity.

Or in other words, as the Emperor said 'I have foreseen it'.

From the 1st post I made in the thread request forum I had envisioned what could come from it if it got approved and things have pretty much panned out exactly as I had predicted. I had a lot of faith that things would go this way and this (plus me being a stubborn moany bastard) is why I kept up the fight to get this for so long.

But I didn't just pull this 'predication' from my arse! T'was cause I had already been chatting away to irish fighting game fans and had spotted certain people that would indeed bring the needed elements to the fold, we just needed a forum to allow it all to blossom. If the people I had met were all just incompetent wasters I wouldnt have fought nearly as much. Theres no point planting a seed with out water earth or sunlight.

So it was all so obvious to me things would succeed, thats why i was so livid at the nay sayers.

Its the same now with 20x the amount of important 'elements/community members' then back at the begining. Some people probably don't even know that they bring any elements to the scene.

Theres so much I want to do but this year in college has been a hard one for me and I've already spend too much time with all this, so I've had to hold off as much as it pains me.

When PPC got in contact with me about sf.ie I knew I just wouldnt be able to do it justice with college and everything, but I also knew who would. I wrote a long reply recommending Barry and Dan and then instantly got on steam and got talking to barry about it. Who accepted the role right away. I knew Barry would do a good job once he got the ball rolling on it, and in the end I was right... again



I know my place in this community, I know what I can do and what I don't have the experience of doing. When I saw the word committee , I really just thought it was going to be a list of those willing to dedicate their free time to improving the community and not just playing the game , in other words a larger list then we see there with us given kinda title rolls.

Sure I can help guide people along or manipulate some aspects of things from the shadows or bitch in a forum still people get sick of me and start to listen But I'm no tourney organiser. I'm no businessman or financial manager.

I've a passion and a lot of experience in video editing and effects and thus I really wanna make a push for high quality professional tournament footage this summer. I've not been able to get that due to college and lack of money over the past few months but things will change soon enough in terms of free time anyway I also really wanna push the community out there and get it as big as possible and as well known as possible and get as many new irish players in here as we can.

This was where I was coming from when I 'volunteered' for being in this 'committee'. When I saw the later posts that elborated on the idea I'm was certianly in the same mindset as jim and dan as I've already stated.

But thats not to say I disagree with Doom either, some very valid points all around.

Also the prospect of us setting up our own venue is something I've had in the back of my mind, but its just a dream obviously, an interesting one none the less (going into buisness with gamenash or something to set up a fighting game centre in Dublin?:eek: )


Its good that we're talking.

Sisko

Jim wrote: »

Just in case people thought otherwise, I'm wholly against the idea, and I hope I don't come across as being negative just for the sake of it, I'm just voicing my opinions and concerns. If you guys decide to go ahead with this (or something like this, whatever form it takes) I'll totally back it.

I think something needs to be done but I think the current layout or plan needs altering before I'm happy/comfortable with it myself.


However I personally don't have the experience or knowledge to come up with better/different one off the top of my head. Thus I'm hoping for more of a collection of ideas from the community that ultimately forms a gameplan we're all comfortable and happy with.

Kirby

In my opinion we don't need a plan or layout. We don't need to be formal.

I agree with Jim. Essentially, we are just a bunch of lads who enjoy fighting games and we should act as such. The community will grow because other people who like fighting games will find us if they want to bad enough. Google and word of mouth. We have a website too, thats good.

The most complex thing we have to deal with is who does the draw for the tourney and if we should use the surplus for a camera. A Comittee for something as relaxed as this seems overkill. As long as most of us agree we will be fine. And most of us don't have an issue forwarding an opinion.

Discussion is good though. I'm glad this thread is here.

Doctor DooM

Kirby wrote: »

The community will grow because other people who like fighting games will find us if they want to bad enough.

Surely it's only logical to make it as easy as possible for people to find us and work with us.


Once again, some form of committee not to run everything, but to look after the stuff that no one wants to do, some form of unified voice to people who want to "talk to the community", etc.

It shouldn't even effect people who just want to play the games, but it should be there in the background, type of thing.

Orim

As Doom said for those those that just want to play, you shouldn't notice and it shouldn't effect you in anything but a positive fashion. If it does impinge on playing, then it's not being done properly.

Another thing is, I think that we are coming to a point where the community is going to stop growing naturally. Once that happens the community will plateau and eventually start to die off. I mean we have already lost some players (Leimrod, Ry). At this point we will have to fight to keep the community growing and sustained.

Doctor DooM

That's a good point. Super is probably the end of the 20 year nostalgia gap for sf.

mr_kyle

Orim wrote: »

Another thing is, I think that we are coming to a point where the community is going to stop growing naturally. Once that happens the community will plateau and eventually start to die off. I mean we have already lost some players (Leimrod, Ry). At this point we will have to fight to keep the community growing and sustained.

It is a persons own interest in the game that will bring them in. That same interest (or more accurately a lack of it) will also cause them to leave. How much a player learns and how competitive they want to be is down to the player. You can not make people care. Increased exposure is the way to go. The more people that know, the higher chance of finding someone that hasn't yet joined and is interested.

I agree with those who have been against an overall committee. Get someone to manage the XGC money, certainly. But I don't see a requirement for anything else at this stage.

Sisko

Orim wrote: »

Another thing is, I think that we are coming to a point where the community is going to stop growing naturally. Once that happens the community will plateau and eventually start to die off.

I dunno I may be just naive but I still see a lot of un tapped irish players out there along with players who discover the game and get into it in a big way when they become aware/involved in the scene.

I'd say theres at least a handful of people in the scene that probably wouldnt be playing the game if they hadnt goten involved in the scene.

Fighting games aint going to go into a slump again any time soon imo. Theres MvC3 coming out too etc. & the nature of a scene and community keeps life in games that are 15+ years old.

Also the players you mention didnt leave due to lack of interest in the community or boreddom of the game either.


Still your concerns are valid ones. Nothing wrong with being prepared if things to go sour.

---

Anyway as much as I'd actually like it to, I can't really see us continuing things the way we have been forever but ideally I still would hope that things can remain being based on 100% community decisions.

ayjayirl

I have been sitting here reading through these posts thinking nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, I think I was taken up wrong........ again.

All of the points people are raising are all valid. I have some of these concerns myself. How something like a committee would/could/should be used, I think, comes from what it is the group want to do..... People are saying that there is no need for it and some are saying otherwise so I wanted to ask a question to focus on the real burning issue.

(I'd like to preface these by saying, I am not dictating here, just trying to understand whats the best for the community and if I get something wrong in whatever assumptions I make, please point them out to me - I'll leave the dictating to Azza.. =p)

1) Do we want to Grow the community and if so - What is the best way of doing that?

I think this is fundamentally where everyone will have different views. Some argue that the Status Quo will be fine for this - after all it got us this far. By this I mean that our ever present active members continue to act as they/we have been. I know I always suggest for Irish people I find online to try out the fighting games forum. The counter argument is that some form of structure be put in place to aid in the growth. I am not even advocating what that might entail, just that the Status Quo will not do for whatever reason.

If we could collectively come together to answer this question we could then move forward, one way or the other. I think if we could put this to a vote we could see. This would be a very important one for the community as a whole and I would say that for it to truly mean something we should all encourage everyone involved to have their say as they/we will determine the shape of our future as a community. We could leave it open for as long as possible to encourage and get all participation.

For transparency - I believe that we need some form of structure but if the majority decides otherwise, I am more than happy to continue as is. I am also suggesting that one of our trusted Mods run this sort of thing as I would be the wrong person for impartiality - Sounds like something a dictator would do...... =p

chunkis

Our community needs organisation and leadership.

So far the forums have been good enough, but now is the time for change. There are many different reasons why we need to change, one of the main reasons is the xgc, it is no longer suitable for running events, the place is over crowded and small and the equipment there is below standard, If we are to grow and expand then we need to address the problems our community has and work together to resolve them.

To do this we need to create a team, a team that is dedicated to organising and running events in ireland. This saturday after the event i would like to hold a meeting with all of you to discuss the future of the fighting game community.

See you then.

Ry

Suck my balz! ;D

D4RK ONION

chunkis wrote: »

Our community needs organisation and leadership.

So far the forums have been good enough, but now is the time for change. There are many different reasons why we need to change, one of the main reasons is the xgc, it is no longer suitable for running events, the place is over crowded and small and the equipment there is below standard, If we are to grow and expand then we need to address the problems our community has and work together to resolve them.

To do this we need to create a team, a team that is dedicated to organising and running events in ireland. This saturday after the event i would like to hold a meeting with all of you to discuss the future of the fighting game community.

See you then.

Would it be possible for one of you to call me when you're doing this and put me on loudspeaker or something?

ayjayirl

D4RK ONION wrote: »

Would it be possible for one of you to call me when you're doing this and put me on loudspeaker or something?

no

D4RK ONION

ayjayirl wrote: »

no