The Columbia Sprinters spat: Cavendish v Griepel

Slideshowbob

OK Cav is a mouthpiece, and Griepel is winning all around him at mo, but I think Cav deserves respect and precedence for the TDF team to the exclusion of Griepel given he has already excelled in the event against the best.

Chips Lovell

On the other hand, Griepel would make one hell of a leadout man if they patched up their differences and would be a useful plan B for Columbia if Cavendish crashes or has a bad day.

I'd say though Griepel will be on a different team next year though given the bad blood. There was a rumour that Lotto wanted him. Griepel is good, but a lot of his wins are in smaller races.

Beasty

When's Cav's contract up? Presumably Sky will be after him anyway?

RobFowl

Griepal's is up at the end of 2010. I saw Bob Stapleton quoted as saying they didn't think he'd stay after that.

God forbid him going to Lotto, the only protour team with no wins at all this season :eek:

Junior

Cav is pushing for one of two things, a move to another team, or to get rid of Griepel as quickly as possible .. I know he's an awful mouthpiece and doesn't do himself any favours by putting the mouth into gear before the brain, however it's a lot better than some of the bland interviews you get from soccer players, saying nothing but still managing to waste your time.

The only thing about Cav is that he can deliver the goods, however he better realise that he isn't a one man sprinting machine, he does need the lead out train, he's no Boonen, Husvod or Friere - they can all do a lot of the donkey work themselves and still have a sprint, Cav I don't think can.

ROK ON

I don't have a whole lot of tome for Cav. He is the Ronan O Gara ofpro cycling. An asshole with a mouth surrounded by a team that deliversthe goods. He finishes what other people start. In any sport I have admired people who go out and do it for themselves - an eat what you kill attitude. Bonen and Cancellara have it. I think Hushovd has it as does Gilbert. Cav would win very little on his own and would win a lot less at many other teams.
Christ he finished outside the cut-off in Flanders. How many of the great Green jersey wearers has that happened to.

DirkVoodoo

You could argue that like Ronan O Gara, while he may not be liked, he has the talent to boot. I don't think either of them are really carried by their teams. They are just talented individuals in talented teams.

Chips Lovell

Cavendish is well able to freelance sprints and a lot of his early wins came this way. He has a lead out train now because he can. He wins so much that the team can throw a lot of its resources behind him. But he he can win without the train as well.

Junior

ROK ON wrote: »

I don't have a whole lot of tome for Cav. He is the Ronan O Gara ofpro cycling. An asshole with a mouth surrounded by a team that deliversthe goods. He finishes what other people start. In any sport I have admired people who go out and do it for themselves - an eat what you kill attitude. Bonen and Cancellara have it. I think Hushovd has it as does Gilbert. Cav would win very little on his own and would win a lot less at many other teams.
Christ he finished outside the cut-off in Flanders. How many of the great Green jersey wearers has that happened to.

I worked with Munster for 18 months and have been up close with a lot of the team, ROG is far from an asshole, and I'd disagree with the sentiment that he's surrounded by a team and he's just a hanger on - he's gotten that team thru matches many many times before, and don't buy into the Hookisms about him..

Junior

el tonto wrote: »

Cavendish is well able to freelance sprints and a lot of his early wins came this way. He has a lead out train now because he can. He wins so much that the team can throw a lot of its resources behind him. But he he can win without the train as well.

They may have, but since he's been with Columbia, how often have you seen him do it ?

jwshooter

let the bikes do the talking , griepels is the man .

ROK ON

Clarification.
1 I do think Cav is a very talented spri ter but otherwise is very limited. I have come to appreciate just how difficult cycling is. I admire guys that just do it themselves. Team TT apart Cobtador took a tour by himself. Saxo controlled parts of Flankers but won it himself. Bonen can sprint but often wins himself. Kelly could sprint and drive for the line on bisow.
I admire these guys over and above a guy who is now dependent on the team. It would be interesting to see how Cav dies this year. If he takesgreen given that histeam while strong is weakened, then I will admit error.

2 I believe ROG is a talented tactican but a very poor leader onfield. I have watched him since he was 18. Man can be a tactical genius. He is limited in a lot of ways and shouts his mouth off way too muc cor me.
The letter to the indo editor was the final straw for me. It draws a line as to who can and cannot criticise a pri sportsman.

3 Rog rarely plays well behind a beaten pack. A truly great half back like Rob Howley or Tony Ward back in the day played behind weak packs.

Put Cav in a weak team and if he wins a big race I would be astounded. Kelly who has 4 of the jerseys that cav aspires to regularly cycled for weak teams.

Cav pays the bills, but so does Griepel. Stapleton has a tough one. Racing has changed, sprinting now more organised. I would not like to have to make the decision.

Diarmuid

Junior wrote: »

They may have, but since he's been with Columbia, how often have you seen him do it ?

ROG or Cav?

Chips Lovell

Junior wrote: »

They may have, but since he's been with Columbia, how often have you seen him do it ?

Just because he has a lead out doesn't mean he can't do it anymore. Can you honestly say that a guy with that level of acceleration needs a train to get him up to speed?

Nietzschean

ROK ON wrote: »

Clarification.
1 I do think Cav is a very talented spri ter but otherwise is very limited.

He's a a sprinter, not sure what else you expect from him other than hang on and sprint?

Team TT apart Cobtador took a tour by himself.

Don't think thats fair on the astana team last year at all. the team may have been more behind Lance for the gc, but Astana controlled so many of the stages with Contador entirely protected, even his verbier climb where he showed everyone up he had team mates setting the temp for the first part of the climb...

ROK ON

Nietzschean wrote: »

He's a a sprinter, not sure what else you expect from him other than hang on and sprint?

Don't think thats fair on the astana team last year at all. the team may have been more behind Lance for the gc, but Astana controlled so many of the stages with Contador entirely protected, even his verbier climb where he showed everyone up he had team mates setting the temp for the first part of the climb...

Both Hushovd and Bonen are sprinters (but dont have the same final acceleration as Cav), butthey go out and try to win races. Look Cav is being smart. He gets to the line in as fresh a position as possible. Most people would give their right arm for that. Now he readily acknowledges his team strength, and that he finishes a move that they started. I admit that he has to seal the deal, and so often he does. Fair dues to the guy. However we wont know how great he is in the pantheon of sprinters until he has to work a little more on his own.

ednwireland

oh c**p i'm in the rugby forum, what about sexton

i love watching a big lead out train so bring on the cav (or anyone else for that matter)
yeh so what he has a great team for me thats as much cycling as contador dancing up the tourmalet.

yeh and he has a big mouth

and i loved the comment about greipel saying how he could do this or that after the race, he needs to win some big races then columbia will put the team behind him

Junior

el tonto wrote: »

Just because he has a lead out doesn't mean he can't do it anymore. Can you honestly say that a guy with that level of acceleration needs a train to get him up to speed?

No I don't think he needs the train to get him up to speed, but they do need to nurse him thru a stage/race to get him to the that position for the win, Boonen's team has been fairly non existent in the cobbled classics this year and I think he's suffered from it. I don't know if Cav has the testicular fortitude to do it alone, grit the teeth chew the bars and get the job done, I think he looks for something to blame or on the other side of it he looks for every advantage he can get and the team provide that - I would like to see him be more than the pretty boy who pops out and takes the W.

I can't see him at the moment staying in the hunt with the contenders in a break at a monument as a selection is made, I don't know maybe I come from viewing a sprinter as a person who can read a race, and put himself into a position where he can unleash his speed on the rest to take the victory. Rather than a cycling equivalent of the American Football goal kicker, he rests up, he takes it easy and when his time comes the team does most of the donkey work to get him into position.

Now we could all be completely wrong about the lad and he's blowing smoke up our holes with his mind games for the TdF - you know like what he did with MSR ?

I do think he's shot himself in the foot by opening his mouth on him gammin on with how he was actually doing - he should have kept that to himself and just chalked it down as a method for putting people off..

ROK ON wrote: »

I believe ROG is a talented tactican but a very poor leader onfield. I have watched him since he was 18. Man can be a tactical genius. He is limited in a lot of ways and shouts his mouth off way too muc cor me.
The letter to the indo editor was the final straw for me. It draws a line as to who can and cannot criticise a pri sportsman.

3 Rog rarely plays well behind a beaten pack. A truly great half back like Rob Howley or Tony Ward back in the day played behind weak packs.


Cav pays the bills, but so does Griepel. Stapleton has a tough one. Racing has changed, sprinting now more organised. I would not like to have to make the decision.

Rog may not be a great team captain, I'd agree there, I think he does two things wrong, one he gets too emotional and two he draws too much on himself, he believes that no matter what he can and will win that match. As for the letter to the indo, it wasn't too the Editor, it was directed at Kevin Myers, who hasn't fallen foul of him at some point ?

I'd take Rog's point at the end of the day that he made, Rog always gives 100% no matter what and that he's not there to pick up the plaudits without the work.

As for him not playing well behind a beaten pack, I give you all if not of the majority of Irish matches, Ireland rarely if ever beasted another pack off the pitch.

Now back to the cycling ..

It's another thought that's occurred to me over this last while with twitter and more and more cycling websites, every race now gets coverage, we are now watching semi classics midweek, and every race is now exposure for the modern team and chalking down a W no matter what is still a W at the end of the year's balance sheet.

Is Griepel better for the Team than Cav in the fact of he's cheaper, and will compete at the '****ty races' and chalk up the W from purely a sponsor point of view ? He goes out gets the job done and still has a smile on his face, and doesn't go mouthing off in the papers how **** his team mates are ?

petethedrummer

Freddy Maertens with 219 pro career victories is considered by many as the greatest road sprinter of all time. In fact both Sean Kelly (who also ranks as one of the best road sprinters ever) and Mario Cipollini have stated that if all the past great sprinters were to come up against Cavendish it would only be Maertens who could truly challenge him.
http://www.cyclingrevealed.com/Mar10/Mar_feature10_MenofMan.html

Though, I'd like to see the actual quotes from Cipo and Kelly.

jwshooter

griepel had a great ride in turkey yesterday

JacksonHeightsOwn

im not going to get too involved in this thread myself

we all know Cav is **** quick, there's no 2 ways about it, he is the fastest SPRINTER in the peloton, but he's not a better cyclist than boonen or hushovd, and i dont think that can be argued

funny thing

at the tour of ireland last year we got talking to an english guy that was actually Cavendishs' first ever sponsor when he raced the tour of ireland before

we asked said sponsor was he always outspoken and what was he like back then,

our man replied that every other cyclist just thought he was some "FAT MANX KID WITH NO TALENT",

ha ha, how wrong where they

p.s, hushovd rules!

Murph100

I used to think Cav was an almighty gobsh!t, albeit a very fast one, until the TOI last year, the stage starting in Bantry. Whilst most of the crowd were trying to get a glimpse of Lance in the pouring rain, I stepped away back to get to some shelter and found myself standing next to Cav.

'Great' I thought to myself, ' Of all the guys in the peleton, I had to be beside this loudmouth '. 15 mins later of friendly banter with Cav, my opinions were shattered, he's a really nice bloke, no airs and graces about himself either.

He's very young for his level of success and I think most of the media know how to get a reaction from him, just like they do with Cadel Evans.

Junior

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/cycling/article7101041.ece

kimmage gets a great insight into cav again. For what it's worth.

TinyExplosions

I've got to be honest and say that I'm a big Cav fan... yes he's brash, but most of the time he backs it up with his raw talent and sheer speed.

For those that think he needs a train to win races, look at Milan San Remo last year, he did that with very little help. His lack lustre start to this season has mostly been down to problems he's been having with his teeth - a nasty thing it would seem, so he's not 100% yet.

As for trains and green jerseys, well if a strong team is what will get you the green, then it's worth it. Saying that Kelly et al didn't have that kind of support is a little disingenuous in my opinion, as cycling was very different back then, and teams weren't as important really -it was Lance and Disco that really ushered in the era of teams controlling the grand tours, with a definite captain (or captains) that all the other riders were working for. Back in the day, you might have had one or two mates pulling for you as a domestique, but it wasn't anything like the racing we have today.

Cav is focussed, and wants a green jersey, just because he has the talent and the clout in his team to get everyone working for him doesn't lessen his talent at all -lots of riders focus on one or two goals in a season, and will do whatever they can to achieve them.

Yes, he runs his mouth of, and a lot of the time I think it's a case of speaking before engaging brain, and he doesn't make a lot of friends with it, but he's still the strongest sprinter in the peloton today.

Slideshowbob

If you look at the interview with Kimmage above, some interesting stuff

- He comments on his lead out train advantage

- He went to Paraguay with his new girlfriend and had the dental procedure there - sounds dodge, why not have it in Europe? Sparing the cash!??! Bit mad if you ask me!

Junior

Read his book, his team were all around him for the last climb. They got him over that by protecting him. It's not as if he rode some mad tactical race covering breaks and shadowing other favourites, the team knew to get him to the sprint finish and he'd do it there, he even admits it himself he rarely goes full gas and he was at full tilt for that.

His win was well taken but a tad disengenous to say he won on his own to the effort and planning of his team.

Raam

http://velocitynation.com/content/toto/2010/toto-turns-179

Chips Lovell

Interesting quote from Cavendish given this discussion:

"My short-term target is to win the green jersey (at the Tour de France) and to win the World Championships in the next two years, but long-term, I want to expand my thing. A journalist asked me the other week, 'Would you not like to win races alone?' I said, 'Of course I would, but I’m a paid professional. This is not a f****** hobby! I’m in cycling to succeed!'"

Lumen

el tonto wrote: »

Interesting quote from Cavendish given this discussion

Nothing like a bit of ambition. It'd be interesting to see what he's capable of. Apparently he did beat Wiggins in an ITT stage once, though only over 1.9km. 54kph :eek:

Slideshowbob

Maybe it never happen that he will show what he can do on his own.

By nature of being arguably the world's best sprinter, any team that has him will invest in a lead out train for him. As he says in the quote - he is a pro, paid to win! and apart from illness and lack of fitness, he is damn good at it no matter how his personality is viewed!

bcmf

Tour of Turkey Stage 7. Right on the 1km mark Griepel and his lead out train in smash spectulare. Looks like a mechanical on the front rider in the worst of places
http://www.youtube.com/user/worldcyclingchannel2#p/u/6/bDoIqenraIY

Raam

I think Grabsch ran out of road or the surface was greasy. Didn't hear that he had a mechanical.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/presidential-cycling-tour-of-turkey-2-hc/stage-7/results

Signal_ rabbit

Murph100 wrote: »

I used to think Cav was an almighty gobsh!t, albeit a very fast one, until the TOI last year, the stage starting in Bantry. Whilst most of the crowd were trying to get a glimpse of Lance in the pouring rain, I stepped away back to get to some shelter and found myself standing next to Cav.

'Great' I thought to myself, ' Of all the guys in the peleton, I had to be beside this loudmouth '. 15 mins later of friendly banter with Cav, my opinions were shattered, he's a really nice bloke, no airs and graces about himself either.

He's very young for his level of success and I think most of the media know how to get a reaction from him, just like they do with Cadel Evans.

I too met him in bantry and thought he was quite shy and reserved and I admit I am a big Cav fan.

I'm not sure the comments about 'how he is protected until the end when he sprints' are really valid, isn't that what its all about on the tours? HTC had a winning formula and it worked.

Slideshowbob

Interesting thoughts about the Cav/Griepel split by Shane Stokes:

http://twitter.com/ssbike

I think Cav should have precedent on the team and in relative terms - Griepel is an upstart, Cav has been there and done it in the Tour