A warning about registered Gas Installers

FUNKY LOVER

it is not a requirement to soundness test the pipework if a service is been carried out.its a sticky area checking some other persons work.i personally would but its not required.

yoshytoshy

This is beyond me ,I'd get the sack if I didn't soundness test at the meter.

What are people paying for ,if they're not 100% sure everything is safe ?

FUNKY LOVER

your there to service the appliance.testing the pipework for the whole installation is a different kettle of fish.

yoshytoshy

FUNKY LOVER wrote: »

your there to service the appliance.testing the pipework for the whole installation is a different kettle of fish.

Part of my day to day work is repairing leaks that service engineers have found and reported while servicing.
So for someone on the internet to come along and mention fish and kettles ,is funny.

FUNKY LOVER

why doesnt anyone listen around here?all im saying is its not required by law to do a soundeness test on the pipework when servicing a domestic installation.

yoshytoshy

FUNKY LOVER wrote: »

why doesnt anyone listen around here?all im saying is its not required by law to do a soundeness test on the pipework when servicing a domestic installation.

Of course you have to do a soundness test, christ.

FUNKY LOVER

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Of course you have to do a soundness test, christ.

not on the pipework.

yoshytoshy

Look ,your suppose to check the soundness of the building your filling out the cert for ,when you service the boiler.

This is not something new ,your always suppose to check the soundness of buildings when any work related to gas is carried out.

Post here in a link to where it says you don't have to check the soundness of all pipework and appliances.
I'm working at this long enough now and thats always been the case.

Theres no misinterpretation of anything ,this is how it is.

IS 813, Annex C, servicing a gas appliance, C4: in servicing the appliance(s), the competent person shall address the following safety indicators: (num 6) gas soundness of the appliance.

yoshytoshy

gary71 wrote: »

IS 813, Annex C, servicing a gas appliance, C4: in servicing the appliance(s), the competent person shall address the following safety indicators:(num 6) gas soundness of the appliance.

Yes ,the appliance should be checked for soundness when servicing it. But the line must be checked aswell as part of the cert completion.

I very much doubt that in the name of safety ,the rgii has deliberately altered regulations so that ,no soundness testing will be done while servicing.
Everyone working at this knows your suppose to check the line ,but in the heat of new regulations ,people who are new to the job ,oversee this "small" practice.

I'm finished with this thread now and sorry gary for arguing with you about the quality of work here ,it's obvious theres a lot more to learn ,than I first thought.

No problem yoshytoshy, the regs are very important and they need to be clear and precise, which i feel we have been let down on, i would love to see the good working practices mentioned put in to IS813 so there can be no misunderstanding, a higher standard of regs protect decent installers and crucify the inept ones, but it would also need strong enforcement.

I have seen a massive improvement in domestic installation since i started inspecting them, flushing is more common place and most installers i deal with who are making basic mistakes are now motivated to learn, to stay on the right side of RGII, Gary.

yoshytoshy

Thanks gary ,i have picked up a lot of small leaks on jobs were the people had no idea. It's beyond me how anyone would think it's ok not to check the line.

Your even asked to fill out what type of pipework the gas line is done in.

Just to show what i mean about the regs not being precise, Cert3 ask the installer: to declare if the installation work and or the appliance is gastight, when it should read: installation and appliance is gastight, so they have no requirement to test the pipework if your servicing a appliance.

Complacency kills, and i find some installers aren't paranoid enough when working on gas or unvented cylinders but that's another story:)

yoshytoshy

gary71 wrote: »

Just to show what i mean about the regs not being precise, Cert3 ask the installer: to declare if the installation work and or the appliance is gastight, when it should read: installation and appliance is gastight, so they have no requirement to test the pipework if your servicing a appliance.

Certs are filled out for repairs to leaking pipework etc. or leaking gas appliances.
So the and or would stand for repairs up to the appliance or the appliance itself.

Now we are friends I'm not going to pick a fight, BUT;) looking at cert 3 for the purpose of a service/repair from my take on it, they first state that: all details must be provided by RGII installers working in accordance with IS813(which looks for the appliance test only) then it has the the declaration mentioned earlier "appliance or pipework" and then it shows the minimum requirement for a service by printing annex C appliance only and annex E for a safety unlock after rectification which would be the full test of appliances and pipework, just my reading of cert 3 and what they are telling us to do but it wouldn't be the first time i misinterpreted regs and now I'm getting all nerdy. Gary.

yoshytoshy

I haven't got a cert to hand ,I must look at one tomorrow. This means anyone can walk into a house and mess around with the boiler for twenthy minutes ,without proper knowledge about gas installations.

People are been had.

http://www.rgii.ie/_fileupload/Consumer%20Documents/Info/13348%20RGII%20Ext%20Cert3_Layout%201Version%201%2023-09-09.pdf

Good installers will always be good and the regs are less of a issue and back up the work their doing already, i like regs that leave no room for interpretation and are simple to follow, the UK regs are very in depth and leave no room for misunderstanding, a much better system and there is no middle ground so they are easy to enforce, i prefer working under UK gas regs as i just have to do what the book says and i am protected if god forbid a accident occurs, Irish regs have a long way to go before i feel that protected working here.

I have had a few heated arguments with the Board Gais mafia who would turn up to site shut the boilers down because of their interpretations of the regs and as the manufactures Representative i was the one to had to explain the error of their ways, not easy when they were mob handed. With clear regs then there can be no arguments and clear regs/instructions is what RGII should be giving us, Gary.

yoshytoshy

yoshytoshy wrote: »

I haven't got a cert to hand ,I must look at one tomorrow. This means anyone can walk into a house and mess around with the boiler for twenthy minutes ,without proper knowledge about gas installations.

People are been had.

You should post a warning:D

FUNKY LOVER

look if you read all my posts in this thread you will see my argument was it is not required in IS813 to carry out a soundeness test on the pipework.i work on industrial commercial and domestic installations,so im not some plumber who done the rgi course and am out servicing without knowing the ins and outs.

all i quoted is in IS813.and yes it is ridiculous but this shows how things are going to get worst before they get better,IMO.

yoshytoshy

I only ever do installing or repairs ,never servicing. Full line tests are done on all work that we do though.
I commission work and fill out log books ,everything has to be done by the book for the seai.

Apologies to funky lover for contradicting him ,it's a shock to see this stuff after working on gas for so long.

yoshytoshy

FUNKY LOVER wrote: »

all i quoted is in IS813.and yes it is ridiculous but this shows how things are going to get worst before they get better,IMO.

Yeah ,sorry about that.

I did spot in your earlier post that you test the pipework, so none of my comments about fruitloops or dodgy installers would be aimed at you:), i reckon fellehs how don't read the regs are not going to read a forum.

FUNKY LOVER

is that a serious apology,if so its cool you dont to need mate!!

but seriously i personally think something bad is going to happen that will show just how stupid this whole reci rgi stuff is.i mean lads who have never worked on gas before can just pay for a course and sudddenly they can work on boilers etc.

that just cant be right,as anyone who works in the business knows it takes years to know about it and even at that you will never know it all.

yoshytoshy

I've done loads of gas courses and fas training ,spent thousands between one thing and another.

Now it sounds like tom,dick and harry can do a two week course ,buy an analyzer and stick his name on a jeep.

It's the people who pay for the services is who I feel for.

yoshytoshy

FUNKY LOVER wrote: »

is that a serious apology,if so its cool you dont to need mate!!

but seriously i personally think something bad is going to happen that will show just how stupid this whole rrci rgi stuff is.i mean lads who have never worked on gas before can just pay for a course and sudddenly they can work on boilers etc.

that just cant be right,as anyone who works in the business knows it takes years to know about it and even at that you will never know it all.

The boss despises rgi ,wants nothing to do with the whole thing. He spotted what your saying a few months ago ,but I didn't believe him.
I'm hoping they have something up their slieve and they just need money to kickstart the whole thing.

But even the idea that a boiler service doesn't include a line check ,is just shocking.

yoshytoshy

yoshytoshy wrote: »

I've done loads of gas courses and fas training ,spent thousands between one thing and another.

Now it sounds like tom,dick and harry can do a two week course ,buy an analyzer and stick his name on a jeep.

It's the people who pay for the services is who I feel for.

Calm down:eek:, I'm supposed to do the bitching and moaning , don't take that away from me:(.

FUNKY LOVER

believe me its a joke,it was a great idea in theory-start everything from fresh,and implement new guidelines laws etc,but it was brought in so ridiculous.

i have lads ringing me sometimes saying,im standing in front of a bolier and this and that is happening,now i just say im not insured to help over the phone.

the **** is gonna hit the fan soon.

FUNKY LOVER

FUNKY LOVER wrote: »

the **** is gonna hit the fan soon.

It don't get any worse than a BG fitted boiler, serviced by them, then getting capped off by a RGII friend of the house holders, who done the right thing when he heard them complaining about headaches and dizziness, he found the boiler sooted and carbon monoxide getting into the house, fair play to him, as for BG they have a habit of making things disappear which i find is part of the problem of enforcement. Gary

FUNKY LOVER

gary71 wrote: »

It don't get any worse than a BG fitted boiler, serviced by them, then getting capped off by a RGII friend of the house holders, who done the right thing when he heard them complaining about headaches and dizziness, he found the boiler sooted and carbon monoxide getting into the house, fair play to him, as for BG they have a habit of making things disappear which i find is part of the problem of enforcement. Gary

yep fair play,obviously not all rgis are cowboys id like tO think its the minority.

as i said it was a great idea,getting away from bord gais and starting something fresh with hew guidelines etc,but its been implemented wrong,only my opinion though what do i know at the end of the day!!

FUNKY LOVER

FUNKY LOVER wrote: »

.
as i said it was a great idea,getting away from board gais and starting something fresh with hew guidelines etc,but its been implemented wrong,only my opinion though what do i know at the end of the day!!

Unfortunately for us it's the same person who was in charge at BG who came across to RGII to run RGII who i blame, it the same thing as before but with a different name, how many inspectors are from outside of Board Gais?.

Micky Dolenz

I emailed RGII some questions get a conculsive answer on the soundness test.

Fair play, they responded pretty quickly.


Micky
I am just leaving the office for weeks holidays so hence the rushed answer

1) Is a soundness test required on pipe work when an appliance service is being carried out NO, or does the appliance only need to be checked for soundness as per annex C of IS 813 YES

2) Is the RGI required to do a visual inspection of the other gas appliance's in the property? Only if requested or providing this service i.e Annex E inspection as per IS813 (other than the one being serviced). When a fault is found a notice of hazard is issued YES.



Contact me anytime for clarification
Regards
William Wilson
Inspections Manager
Register of Gas Installers of Ireland

yoshytoshy

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I emailed RGII some questions get a conculsive answer on the soundness test.

Fair play, they responded pretty quickly.


Micky
I am just leaving the office for weeks holidays so hence the rushed answer

1) Is a soundness test required on pipe work when an appliance service is being carried out NO, or does the appliance only need to be checked for soundness as per annex C of IS 813 YES

2) Is the RGI required to do a visual inspection of the other gas appliance's in the property? Only if requested or providing this service i.e Annex E inspection as per IS813 (other than the one being serviced). When a fault is found a notice of hazard is issued YES.



Contact me anytime for clarification
Regards
William Wilson
Inspections Manager
Register of Gas Installers of Ireland

The regulations are being watered down so ,line checks were always done when servicing.

People should ask for there line to be checked when getting a service ,for safety purposes.

JohnnieK

This post is getting some amount of views lads, see what you have started Gary:D. I would never do a service with out doing a line test it's a given in my book. When I done my GID we were told to soundness test the line. Why are the people who train us telling us to do this and ~RGII are saying a different thing. I will stick to what I was thought after all the man was an experienced Gas Fitter for 35 years.

If you think board gais are bad now wait till they sign the service section over to Sierra who I belive will be doing the servicing from now on soon enough. They will be offering €40 an appliance and only 4 a day to there "fitters". I can just imagin. The good ones will do a good job and be there the day and the a**e wholes will piss through them so they can go off and do there own work after. I'm open to correction on this because I heard it from a third party.

GopErthike

JohnnieK wrote: »

This post is getting some amount of views lads, see what you have started Gary:D. I would never do a service with out doing a line test it's a given in my book. When I done my GID we were told to soundness test the line. Why are the people who train us telling us to do this and ~RGII are saying a different thing. I will stick to what I was thought after all the man was an experienced Gas Fitter for 35 years.

If you think board gais are bad now wait till they sign the service section over to Sierra who I belive will be doing the servicing from now on soon enough. They will be offering €40 an appliance and only 4 a day to there "fitters". I can just imagin. The good ones will do a good job and be there the day and the a**e wholes will piss through them so they can go off and do there own work after. I'm open to correction on this because I heard it from a third party.

^^^^^^^ agreed...

But I have to disagree with testing the line when doing a boiler service, as far as I know it was never part of the regulations. Ok thats not to say thats an ideal situation, but personally I think it's right. Besides testing the line in every building is opening up a whole new can of worms, which has nothing to do with a boiler service. Whereas a safety check is a different story.






I know, I know, a month later, razor sharp. sorry.

yoshytoshy

GopErthike wrote: »

But I have to disagree with testing the line when doing a boiler service, as far as I know it was never part of the regulations. Ok thats not to say thats an ideal situation, but personally I think it's right. Besides testing the line in every building is opening up a whole new can of worms, which has nothing to do with a boiler service. Whereas a safety check is a different story.

I know, I know, a month later, razor sharp. sorry.

I really don't see the problem with checking the line ,can't see any issues with finding leaks either.
If theres a leak you locate it and fix it ,obviously discuss it with the customer about price etc.
If you can't fix it ,hand the customer a hazard notice to have the line repaired.

GopErthike

yoshytoshy wrote: »

I really don't see the problem with checking the line ,can't see any issues with finding leaks either.
If theres a leak you locate it and fix it ,obviously discuss it with the customer about price etc.
If you can't fix it ,hand the customer a hazard notice to have the line repaired.

I see plenty of problems, typical conversation being: 'well there wasn't a problem beforehand', thats right, but I just did a test that you didn't ask me to do nor was I obliged to do and I've found a small leak which has to be fixed, costing you. thanks, Your welcome.

I don't mean to be smartar*ed but dealing with the public can be difficult. I like your idealism of having no drops but it won't work that way.

Don't get me wrong there shouldn't be any leaks. But you've just been asked to service the boiler.

yoshytoshy

GopErthike wrote: »

I see plenty of problems, typical conversation being: 'well there wasn't a problem beforehand', thats right, but I just did a test that you didn't ask me to do nor was I obliged to do and I've found a small leak which has to be fixed, costing you. thanks, Your welcome.

I don't mean to be smartar*ed but dealing with the public can be difficult. I like your idealism of having no drops but it won't work that way.

Don't get me wrong there shouldn't be any leaks. But you've just been asked to service the boiler.

Haven't had any problems so far doing things this way ,people are more than happy to get things done right.

Nobody gets their old cooker serviced and yet they are the first thing to start leaking.

There is virtually no leaks on lines anyway ,when there is it's miniscule.

GopErthike

Different experiences I suppose.

JohnnieK

GopErthike wrote: »

^^^^^^^ agreed...

But I have to disagree with testing the line when doing a boiler service, as far as I know it was never part of the regulations. Ok thats not to say thats an ideal situation, but personally I think it's right. Besides testing the line in every building is opening up a whole new can of worms, which has nothing to do with a boiler service. Whereas a safety check is a different story.






I know, I know, a month later, razor sharp. sorry.

I have acctually heard since that they have to do 7 a day. God help there customers.

pleuraXeraphim

Lads. We got a Gas Boiler installed (still under warranty) a year ago in our new house. It was installed by an RGI installer/plumber and then certified for use. Boiler broke down a few weeks ago, once due to internal pipe in boiler not installed correctly and not long enough. The Boiler Supllier came out and fixed the issue.

Then it broke down a second time a week later (when our water froze) as there was apparently no proper non-return valve, so water escaped out and there was no pressure to run boiler. Even though this was supposed to be a closed circuit. At this stage there was no water in the pipes as it has been completely emptied.

When the boiler was repressurised 2 weeks ago, it apppeared that pipes internal to the boiler were cracked as water was escaping out through the boiler. The Boiler Supplier guy was saying it was because of the frost.
Which I wonder about as there was nothing left in the system. And also if the boiler was working correctly in the first place then it wouldn't have frozen.

The Gas Boiler Supplier guy is saying that it was frost damage and not there issue so warranty is null and void. Installer is saying that the boiler was not even certified in first place. Does a Gas Boiler need 2 certs. Because we have a Gas Cert.

After 7 weeks of freezing cold we will now have to fork out €1000 to get a new boiler which is not our fault.

Surely either the supplier, the certifier or indeed the installer are liable.
Does anyone have any advise ?
Would appreciate this. Facing into no heating for Christmas :-(

Ask the manufactures for a report on what they feel the issues are, give a copy of the report to the RGI that fitted your boiler and give him a opportunity to do the right thing.

Every boiler must be fitted asper manufactures instructions and gas regs, it is the responsibility of the RGI to install to this standard, by being a RGI a installer is saying he/she fully understand how to fit a boiler to manufactures and gas regs required standard, if it's not fitted to the required standard then the RGI installer is liable. If the installer doesn't do the right thing then small claims court with a independent report and the manufactures report, good luck, Gary.

Marcanthony

gary71 wrote: »

Doing the sort of work i do i come in to contact with lots of installers and training schools, i know there are training schools with a 100% pass marks, my friend has just finished his GID, payed for by the government and he has no trade papers or a back ground in gas, i sat my GID last year and only 2 out of ten had a plumbing back ground and everyone passed even a fella who didn't understand the soundness test and why/what he was testing, also i was given the answers so i don't what that says about me, job seekers are given 100% funding for the courses.

As a gasman i feel knowledge and competents should be the requirements for working on gas, not the need for a job or because someone wants to give it a lash, i have dealt with a lot of emergency's in my time and i know how easy it is for things to go bang in the night and that's what make me concerned. Using plumbing fitting on gas is a bit of a silly, but luckily for one house holder this week i spotted it for them, Gary.

saranac1

gary71 wrote: »

Covering my own backside is a given, as you know the buck stops with the last RGII on site, but to give you a insight in to what can happen, there is a small estate outside Dublin 30ish property's that had been commissioned by a Bord Gais agent, serviced by numerous Board Gais agents, what they didn't notice was the flame lift on the burners of the boilers on this site, i went there noticed the flame lift, investigated, found the boilers had been converted to open flued boilers and were taking combustion air from the utility which had no ventilation, but did have a extractor fan, the reason for the installer fitting the boilers like this was he had drilled his flue hole to small and couldn't get the correct flue in to the hole, so he found a smaller flue that was for exhaust gas only and opened up the boiler.

All this won't mean much to some, but to have a boiler with insufficient air for combustion can produce carbon monoxide and as the boilers were opened this can track back into the property. I shut down the boilers caused a fuss and because Board Gais had been responsible for the maintenance it was all sorted hush, hush between the installers and Board Gais, i personally have found it's my big mouth that gets a job sorted rather than the regs in place, so far anyway. Gary.

Gary do you do gas boiler service in Dublin 15 area?

saranac1

saranac1 wrote: »

Gary do you do gas boiler service in Dublin 15 area?

Unfortunately not but thanks for asking:D

scudo2

saranac1 wrote: »

Gary do you do gas boiler service in Dublin 15 area?

I never realised Dublin has so many areas.
We down here just have "The Peoples Republic Of Cork"
Google it !


Sorry Garry, I'm interfering again, I promises I must stop, sometime !

wally9

Sorry I don't mean to hijack your thread here and indeed have found it interesting even with my ignorance of the industry.
My query is this,what sanctions ,if any can be taken against someone who is masquerading as an RGII registered installer , doing the work,handing out fake RGII cards etc.
All responses appreciated.

wally9

wally9 wrote: »

Sorry I don't mean to hijack your thread here and indeed have found it interesting even with my ignorance of the industry.
My query is this,what sanctions ,if any can be taken against someone who is masquerading as an RGII registered installer , doing the work,handing out fake RGII cards etc.
All responses appreciated.

If caught they get a fine of a couple of hundred €:mad:

Dtp1979

gary71 wrote: »

If caught they get a fine of a couple of hundred €:mad:

Didn't some guy from Carlow get a good fine recently? Or Jail time?

Dtp1979

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Didn't some guy from Carlow get a good fine recently? Or Jail time?

I don't know to be honest, it's normally a €500 fine but I'd like to see similar enforcement to the UK where a illegal installer was find £2,500 for fitting one boiler and another got 6 months in prison for fitting 3 boilers badly.

Legal installers who do bad work have it tuff too, a company got fined £13,000 for installing dangerous tumble dryers and the engineer maintaining the tumble dryers got fined £14,000.

How long would those who just shouldn't be working on gas last with the above level of enforcement.