Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler*, Mao....

monosharp

ISAW wrote: »

The stats I supplied exclude wars. But off you go then. add up all the wars in history that christians caused and see how many died and compare that to non christian regimes or countries.

Why did your states exclude wars ?

Ok if you wanna play this game.

In the Bible God killed approx 32,920,670, assuming 30,000,000 for the worldwide flood wiping out 99.9999999999% of the human race.

http://www.exminister.org/Wells-how-many-has-god-killed.html

Religious wars.
Crusades - 1,000,000 lowest estimate, 2,000,000 highest estimate.
Second Sudanese Civil War - 1,000,000 lowest estimate, 2,000,000 highest estimate.
French Wars of Religion - 2,000,000 lowest estimate, 4,000,000 highest estimate.
Thirty Years' War - 3,000,000 lowest estimate, 11,500,000 highest estimate.

Wars with mostly Christians involved.
WW2 - 72,000,000
WW1 - 65,000,000
Russian Civl War - 9,000,000
Napoleonic Wars - 6,500,000
Deluge War - 4,000,000
*Nazi killing of Jews not counted since Hitlers/Nazi's religion is disputed.

Christian Countries genocides
112,000,000 - European colonization of the Americas
10,000,000 - Belgian exploitation of the Congo Free State

And now I'm bored but I'll leave it there.

Total: 330,920,670 people killed because of Christianity.

*Note for anyone not paying attention to this thread. No I don't believe the above number have been killed because of Christianity, I am using this in response to another poster who is using the same logic to try and claim atheism is responsible for deaths it isn't.

What are your totals. Christians - a million maybe two million.

French wars of religion alone gets 4,000,000, The Thirty Years' War as high as 11,500,000. Both wars between different versions of Christians and both referred to as 'religious wars'.

nozzferrahhtoo

StealthRolex wrote: »

As you admit there is no barrier between atheism and violence then it stands to reason that violence of atheistic regimes was and is influenced by the atheistic lack of a barrier to violence.

Again how so? Why was it not to do with the lack of barriers to violence in… say… pottery… or in moustache wearing?

There are a million things you can list that do not stop people from performing violent act. Why is only ONE indicted when the others are not?

Just as there is nothing in atheism leading FROM violence, there is nothing there leading TO it either. It is entirely neutral on the subject. Yet you wish to indict it anyway based on nothing and based on a complete inability to show and logical pathway from one to the other.

StealthRolex wrote: »

Being an atheist does not make one violent.

NOW you are getting it.

StealthRolex

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Again how so? Why was it not to do with the lack of barriers to violence in… say… pottery… or in moustache wearing?

There are a million things you can list that do not stop people from performing violent act. Why is only ONE indicted when the others are not?

Just as there is nothing in atheism leading FROM violence, there is nothing there leading TO it either. It is entirely neutral on the subject. Yet you wish to indict it anyway based on nothing and based on a complete inability to show and logical pathway from one to the other.

Still blind I see.

The worst killers in history have been shown to be governments. The worst of these have also been shown to be atheistic. The link is empirical. As with much of human nature and activity logic is not always seen nor does it need to be seen.

Mt 7:16

Zombrex

StealthRolex wrote: »

Still blind I see.

The worst killers in history have been shown to be governments.

Actually the worst killers in history have been shown to be bacteria ... ATHEIST bacteria!!

monosharp

StealthRolex wrote: »

Still blind I see.

Your god wiped out over 32,920,670 people according to your bible. I notice you haven't commented on this nor the other statistics I provided.

Most of them could be quite easily debunked but you won't do it because debunking them means debunking your fake statistics too.

The worst killers in history have been shown to be governments.

The worst human killers ? Sure, anyone in power of any sort. Political leaders, religious leaders etc.

The worst of these have also been shown to be atheistic.

No they haven't.

The worst genocide in history by far was the Christian* European colonisation of the Americas. 112,000,000

By the way, I've just noticed with your last list of statistics that you included famines in the USSR and China to come up with your 'total'. You really think that the governments caused famines on purpose and because of atheism ?

ISAW

monosharp wrote: »

Why did your states exclude wars ?

It didn't! It excluded deaths in wars. Why? Because Stalin for example oversaw a regime that caused 25 million war dead. I excluded it to REDUCE the numbers killed by atheistic regimes.

In the Bible God killed approx 32,920,670, assuming 30,000,000 for the worldwide flood wiping out 99.9999999999% of the human race.

You are arguing that the Bible was literally true? LOL!

Mainstream Christians don't claim any such thing!

http://www.exminister.org/Wells-how-many-has-god-killed.html

LOL! The above has NO contemporaneous historical data listed! It is all Bible quotes.
But accepting the bible as historical you will note the vast bulk is made up of the 32 million above. All the wars added up through the entire Old testament ( about 4,000 years of history) add up to about a million. Stalin and Mao and their atheistic pals killed that many before lunchtime! A fifty year period where from 50 to 100 million dies. And they were NOT the only Godless regime. Ancient China (hardly Christian or Jewish) has similar figures

Religious wars.
Crusades - 1,000,000 lowest estimate, 2,000,000 highest estimate.

Perpertrated by so Called Christians Ill accept, but you supply NO SOURCE!
I reckon from Rummels and erols datsa it is closer to one million over five centuries.

Again Stalin killed as many in a half a year as Christian leaders did over half a millennium.

Stalin - ONE five year War (in which Stalins Russia arrived later) 25 million
That is war dead and not his added gulagification of anyone who believed anything.
That doesnt include the extra 10 million or so killed in WWI when russia was run by pre Stalinist atheists.

Second Sudanese Civil War - 1,000,000 lowest estimate, 2,000,000 highest estimate.
French Wars of Religion - 2,000,000 lowest estimate, 4,000,000 highest estimate.

Source?
clearly Mazarin and REicheleu were Catholic Cardinals bankrolling Protestant leaders for political reasons. Why would a Catholic be supporting someone to attack another Catholic of the war was only about catholics against Protestants.
By the way these wars were not about Christians against non believers. If China and Russia were two atheistic regimes attacking each other i would noty include them as indicative of "spreading atheism".

Thirty Years' War - 3,000,000 lowest estimate, 11,500,000 highest estimate.

SAme as above. In The Thirty Years war Protestant Gustavo Adlophus invading The HRE bankrolled by French Catholics! It was not about being God to godless people. It was clearly a result of reformation and counter reformation political realignment
and i don't know what the source is for your numbers.

Don't forget the Bubonic Plague and other pestilence was sweeping Europe.

Wars with mostly Christians involved.
WW2 - 72,000,000

Not started to spread Christianity. China and Japan Turkey etc. were involved who were NOT christian and had huge populations outnumbering your "moistly christian claim"

Russia the biggest loser ion terms of dead - was Atheistic Stalinist!

WW1 - 65,000,000

Ditto Russia was taken over in this war by atheists!

Russian Civl War - 9,000,000

LOL! Fought but atheistic Bolchevics and Menchvics to introduce atheistic regime to Russia!

Napoleonic Wars - 6,500,000

Neither England France Spain Austria Pre atheistic Russia nor Prussia fought to spread Christianity or attack atheism! It was not a Crusade!

Deluge War - 4,000,000
*Nazi killing of Jews not counted since Hitlers/Nazi's religion is disputed.

I dispute yout figures! I recon ther were at least 5 million plus Jews but ther were even more NON JEWS! so Hitler's total was between ten and twelve million!

Christian Countries genocides
112,000,000 - European colonization of the Americas

Source? I can in no way accept that Christians killed 112 million native americans! i cartain cant accept they ever killed one million to "spread christianity"

10,000,000 - Belgian exploitation of the Congo Free State

Again I don't accept this figure! Source?
I accept maybe that many people died but I cant see any like to eiother Islam or christianity causing these deaths.

Total: 330,920,670 people killed because of Christianity.

Pulled out of the air made up figures.

32 million based on a Bible quote you clainm is literally true!

the rest 0- overestimated and baseless numbers - in NO WAY add up to 300 million!

*Note for anyone not paying attention to this thread. No I don't believe the above number have been killed because of Christianity, I am using this in response to another poster who is using the same logic to try and claim atheism is responsible for deaths it isn't.

NB: your figures are wrong and Stalinist and Maoist regimes specifically stated their wanted state atheism and they had a policy of spreading atheism.

When christians specifically attacked others to "spread Christianity" e.g. Crusades or Inquisitions I will accept these figures . that amounts to one or two million over 200 years and not 320 fictional millions!

French wars of religion alone gets 4,000,000,

Yes it is exceptional! And it is BETWEEN CHRISTIANS! But wher is your Source for four million.
You see when you say "alone" that is the point! It is alone! Nothing else comes close.

The Thirty Years' War as high as 11,500,000. Both wars between different versions of Christians and both referred to as 'religious wars'.

Not because of battles but because of other structuiral breakdowns e.g. hygene and disease. i.e. the people didn't die or were not killed because they believed in Protestantism or Catholicism and were fighting for it ( well tens of thousands did but NOT eleven millions)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War#Casualties_and_disease
The origins of the conflict and goals of the participants were complex and no single cause can accurately be described as the main reason for the fighting...
he war became more a continuation of the Bourbon-Habsburg rivalry for European political pre-eminence, and in turn led to further warfare between France and the Habsburg powers, and less specifically about religion

Take a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_disasters_by_death_toll

come to think of it that is probably your SOURCE but maybe you didn't want to refer to it because it lists so many non religious wars? LOL! i was wondering where you got the "deluge" war from?

ISAW

monosharp wrote: »

Why did your states exclude wars ?



Religious wars.
...

Total: 330,920,670 people killed because of Christianity.

145 million are made up from a bible quote and an invented figure about america.
another 137 millions are tewo world wars nothing to do with christianity!
You picked a number of wars waged to spread atheism as well!
and other than a bible quote no sources supplied!

ISAW

monosharp wrote: »

The worst genocide in history by far was the Christian* European colonisation of the Americas. 112,000,000

You got this figure I am guessing from rummel ? He states on page 59 of Death by giovernment that over 95 per cent of americans were killed by disease. It was not intentional genocide to spread religion!

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.TAB3.1.GIF
http://books.google.ie/books?id=N1j1QdPMockC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=110+million+colonization+of+america&source=bl&ots=0oiZrgG3iu&sig=24XrzcXqFeDZTZCvNypK31dWxDk&hl=en&ei=u3TyS6--IMfo-QapprH6DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=110%20million%20colonization%20of%20america&f=false

StealthRolex

monosharp wrote: »

Your god wiped out over 32,920,670 people according to your bible. I notice you haven't commented on this nor the other statistics I provided.

Most of them could be quite easily debunked but you won't do it because debunking them means debunking your fake statistics too.

Go ahead an debunk. The stats were research by Rummel and I can find no evidence of anyone of his authority debunking his work.
Academic work must stand up to peer review and Rummel's has.

monosharp wrote: »

By the way, I've just noticed with your last list of statistics that you included famines in the USSR and China to come up with your 'total'. You really think that the governments caused famines on purpose and because of atheism ?

The famines where attributed to action taken by the governments. In the case of the USSR the famines were caused by confiscation of food, in China by mis management.

Point your wiki at Great Chinese Famine Droughts and famines in Russia and the Soviet Union for further details.

monosharp

ISAW wrote: »

You are arguing that the Bible was literally true? LOL!

Mainstream Christians don't claim any such thing!

Old Testament
So god didn't cause a worldwide flood killing every human being on earth except for Noah and his family ?
- didn't rain fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah, killing everyone ?
- didn't kill every Egyptian firstborn child?
- didn't drown the Egyptian Army ?
- did kill Israelites for dancing naked around Aaron's golden calf ?
- didn't sent "a very great plague" for complaining about the food. Num.11:33, BT
- didn't kill people for "committing whoredom with the daughters of Moab" Num.25:9, BT
- didn't cause the Midianite massacre ?
- didn't deliever the king of Bashan so that the Israelites could massacre his people ?
- didn't cause the massacre of 7 cities ? Joshua 10:28-42, BT
- didn't force the Midianite soldiers to kill each other ?
- didn't send a plague as punishment for David's census ?
- didn't deliver the Syrians into the Israelites' hands ?
- didn't call for a seven year famine ? 2 Kg.8:1
- didn't kill Sleeping Assyrian soldiers ? 2 Kg.19:35, 2 Chr.32:21, Is.37:36
- didn't deliver Israel into the hands of Judah ?
- didn't kill Judean soldiers because they had forsaken the Lord ?
- etc.

New Testament
- didn't kill Ananias and Sapphira ?
- didn't kill Herod ?

I'm quite happy to accept these things didn't happen. Are you saying they didn't ? Are all these deaths metaphors ?

LOL! The above has NO contemporaneous historical data listed! It is all Bible quotes.

Of course it doesn't, its from the Bible. Is the Bible wrong ?

But accepting the bible as historical you will note the vast bulk is made up of the 32 million above.

So whats your predicted number for every man/woman and child on Earth apart from Noah and his kin at this time ?

All the wars added up through the entire Old testament ( about 4,000 years of history) add up to about a million.

Yes ? And ? 1 million is OK but any more is going too far ?

Stalin and Mao and their atheistic pals killed that many before lunchtime!

Yes.

A fifty year period where from 50 to 100 million dies. And they were NOT the only Godless regime. Ancient China (hardly Christian or Jewish) has similar figures

China was hardly Jewish or Christian, is everything else 'atheist' ?

USA/UK/Germany/Spain/Italy/Roman Empire/Byzantine/Russia (pre-USSR), Vlac Tepes (Dracula), France etc were all Christian for a large portion of their history. Is it ok to add all their wars/deaths/famines etc to the Christian total ?

Perpertrated by so Called Christians Ill accept, but you supply NO SOURCE!
I reckon from Rummels and erols datsa it is closer to one million over five centuries.

Source = wikipedia or http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm

Some sources give as high as 9million for all casualties for all crusades (1st,2nd,3rd,4th,childrens)

Robertson, History of Christianity: p168
The total number of deaths due to the crusades had been estimated at around nine million, at least half of which were Christians. [1] Many of these were simply innocent civilians caught in the carnage.

Then again its not really important to me since I reject this numbers game nonsense.

Again Stalin killed as many in a half a year as Christian leaders did over half a millennium.

No he didn't. Please read my post. The Christian genocides in the Americas beat Stalin hands down.

That doesnt include the extra 10 million or so killed in WWI when russia was run by pre Stalinist atheists.

Russian Empire, WW1.
State Church: Russian Orthodox
Minorities: Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Old Believers, Muslims, Buddhists

Source?

Wiki, but I'll gladly provide others if you want.

clearly Mazarin and REicheleu were Catholic Cardinals bankrolling Protestant leaders for political reasons.

Clearly Stalin and Mao were communists who killed millions of their own people and foreigners to gain and hold on to power in their communist/dictatorship states.

Why would a Catholic be supporting someone to attack another Catholic of the war was only about catholics against Protestants.

Why would a communist kill the 'workers' if it was only about been religious ?

By the way these wars were not about Christians against non believers.

Never said they were. Please check my disclaimer in the last two posts.

If China and Russia were two atheistic regimes attacking each other i would noty include them as indicative of "spreading atheism".

So now its deaths caused in the name of spreading religion/atheism ? Oh thats good, now we can completely delete China's/USSR's and others contributions as well as most of the Christian ones.

See how easy that is ?

Not started to spread Christianity. China and Japan Turkey etc. were involved who were NOT christian and had huge populations outnumbering your "moistly christian claim"

Outnumbering the casualties of war ? I think not. But provide a source if you can.

Russia the biggest loser ion terms of dead - was Atheistic Stalinist!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin_in_World_War_II

Within a year after Barbarossa, Stalin reopened the churches in the Soviet Union. One reason could have been to motivate the majority of the population who had Christian beliefs. The reasoning behind this is that by changing the official policy of the party and the state towards religion, the Church and its clergymen could be to his disposal in mobilizing the war effort. On September 4, 1943, Stalin invited Metropolitan Sergius, Metropolitan Alexy and Metropolitan Nikolay to the Kremlin and proposed to reestablish the Moscow Patriarchate, which had been suspended since 1925, and elect the Patriarch. On September 8, 1943, Metropolitan Sergius was elected Patriarch. One account states that Stalin's reversal followed a sign that he purportedly received from heaven.

Ditto Russia was taken over in this war by atheists!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Front_(World_War_I)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_civil_war

LOL! Fought but atheistic Bolchevics and Menchvics to introduce atheistic regime to Russia!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_civil_war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Movement

Check out who was involved.

Neither England France Spain Austria Pre atheistic Russia nor Prussia fought to spread Christianity or attack atheism! It was not a Crusade!

No. And Neither did/was the USSR, Communist China or any other state fight to spread atheism.

I dispute yout figures! I recon ther were at least 5 million plus Jews but ther were even more NON JEWS! so Hitler's total was between ten and twelve million!

Deluge war does not = WW2/Hitler. My reference to Hitler underneath this was seperate.

Source? I can in no way accept that Christians killed 112 million native americans! i cartain cant accept they ever killed one million to "spread christianity"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_disasters_by_death_toll#Genocides_and_alleged_genocides

Again I don't accept this figure! Source?
I accept maybe that many people died but I cant see any like to eiother Islam or christianity causing these deaths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_disasters_by_death_toll#Genocides_and_alleged_genocides

Belgian was Christian.

That is the same 'evidence' as you guys are trying to put forward for Stalin/Mao etc regarding atheism.

Pulled out of the air made up figures.

32 million based on a Bible quote you clainm is literally true!

I'll happily accept its not true, just tell me its not true. I assumed it counted because I assumed you believed these things happened.

the rest 0- overestimated and baseless numbers - in NO WAY add up to 300 million!

Yes they do. I've given you the source (wiki). Do you want to follow wiki's sources or do you want other sources ?

NB: your figures are wrong and Stalinist and Maoist regimes specifically stated their wanted state atheism and they had a policy of spreading atheism.

So did the countries I've listed. Lets take one example, the European countries who colonised the America's were all Christian (AFAIK) and they wanted to spread christianity among the natives and they did spread it.

When christians specifically attacked others to "spread Christianity" e.g. Crusades or Inquisitions I will accept these figures . that amounts to one or two million over 200 years and not 320 fictional millions!

Stalin etc never attacked anyone to spread atheism. They might have killed some because they were religious/homosexual/the wrong race/wrong politics etc for political reasons, not atheistic/religious reasons.

Yes it is exceptional! And it is BETWEEN CHRISTIANS! But wher is your Source for four million.
You see when you say "alone" that is the point! It is alone! Nothing else comes close.

Wiki and no its not alone. See above.

Not because of battles but because of other structuiral breakdowns e.g. hygene and disease. i.e. the people didn't die or were not killed because they believed in Protestantism or Catholicism and were fighting for it ( well tens of thousands did but NOT eleven millions)

Very good. Now if you'd be so kind as to do the same for Stalin/Mao etc and read about their reasons and the amount of people actually killed in battles etc and not because of hygene/disease/politics/famine etc we might get somewhere.

p.s -> Since you don't seem to have realised it or seen my disclaimers, no I don't believe christianity is responsible for all these deaths, not even a sizeable quantity of them. I'm simply using the same basis for gathering numbers as you and other christian posters are using for the atheist figures. I personally dislike this numbers game nonsense because it is mostly nonsense. The vast majority of 'religious wars' were political or financial and I fully accept that.

monosharp

ISAW wrote: »

145 million are made up from a bible quote

As I said, I'm quite happy to accept there was no flood or that god didn't do all those things. Just say its wrong and I'll accept it.

and an invented figure about america.

Well since you don't like Wikipedia.

http://muweb.millersville.edu/~columbus/data/art/STANN-01.ART
South Americas

All told, it is likely that between 60 million and 80 million people from the Indies to the Amazon had perished as a result of the European invasion even before the dawning of the seventeenth century.

North Americas

The number of people living north of Mexico prior to the European invasion remains a subject of much academic debate, with most informed estimates ranging from a low of about 7 million to a high of 18 million. There is no doubt, however, that by the close of the nineteenth century the indigenous population of the United States and Canada totaled around 250,000. in sum, during the years separating the first arrival of Europeans in the sixteenth century and the infamous massacre at Wounded Knee in the winter of 1890, between 97 and 99 percent of North America's native people were killed.

Or http://www.aigenom.com/

Or others if you want ?

another 137 millions are tewo world wars nothing to do with christianity!

Christian countries.

Same as your logic with communist countries.

monosharp

ISAW wrote: »

You got this figure I am guessing from rummel ? He states on page 59 of Death by giovernment that over 95 per cent of americans were killed by disease. It was not intentional genocide to spread religion!

And what percentage of the numbers for communist countries given here were disease, famine, political ?

monosharp

StealthRolex wrote: »

Go ahead an debunk. The stats were research by Rummel and I can find no evidence of anyone of his authority debunking his work.
Academic work must stand up to peer review and Rummel's has.

I'm not disputing the numbers, I'm disputing your categorisation of them as deaths caused in the name of atheism.

The famines where attributed to action taken by the governments. In the case of the USSR the famines were caused by confiscation of food, in China by mis management.

Oh right. so just like the majority of the deaths caused by the Christian European colonisation of the America's then ? Indirect.

Point your wiki at Great Chinese Famine Droughts and famines in Russia and the Soviet Union for further details.

Point your wiki/google to genocidesin the America's for further details.

StealthRolex

monosharp wrote: »

I'm not disputing the numbers, I'm disputing your categorisation of them as deaths caused in the name of atheism.

They are categorized as deaths caused by atheistic regimes. They could also be described as caused by atheists. Deaths caused in the name of atheism is not correct. I can't remember who brought that strawman in but we are not discussing deaths caused in the name of atheism.

We are discussing if the deaths caused by atheistic regimes are related to their atheism with a side note as to whether or not atheistic regimes are more violent.

monosharp wrote: »

Oh right. so just like the majority of the deaths caused by the Christian European colonisation of the America's then ? Indirect.

Not indirect - direct. Forced confiscation of the food caused people to die.

monosharp wrote: »

Point your wiki/google to genocidesin the America's for further details.

I did and found this

20th century scholarly estimates ranged from a low of 8.4 million to a high of 112.5 million persons. This population debate has often had ideological underpinnings. Robert Royal writes that "estimates of pre-Columbian population figures have become heavily politicized with scholars who are particularly critical of Europe and/or Western civilization often favoring wildly higher figures."[18]
Scholars now believe that, among the various contributing factors, epidemic disease was the overwhelming cause of the population decline of the American natives.[19] After first contacts with Europeans and Africans, some believe that the death of 90 to 95% of the native population of the New World was caused by Old World diseases such as smallpox and measles

I think there is a subtle difference between inadvertently infecting a population with a disease they have never seen before and taking all of a populations food away or introducing "management techniques" that result in crop failure. And I don't think it can categorized as germ warfare either.

20th Century atheistic regimes are still ahead. Sorry mate.

monosharp

StealthRolex wrote: »

They are categorized as deaths caused by atheistic regimes.

Fair enough. Leaves all my statistics in place so for deaths caused by Christian countries.

They could also be described as caused by atheists.

Yes check. And mine can be described as caused by Christians.

We are discussing if the deaths caused by atheistic regimes are related to their atheism with a side note as to whether or not atheistic regimes are more violent.

K.

Not indirect - direct. Forced confiscation of the food caused people to die.

Oh ? What has forced confiscation of food got to do with spreading atheism ?

Or if you take the 'deaths caused by atheists' route (as above) then all of my statistics stand. European colonisation of the America's resulting in the deaths of 100+ million people are deaths caused by Christians.

I did and found this

20th century scholarly estimates ranged from a low of 8.4 million to a high of 112.5 million persons. This population debate has often had ideological underpinnings. Robert Royal writes that "estimates of pre-Columbian population figures have become heavily politicized with scholars who are particularly critical of Europe and/or Western civilization often favoring wildly higher figures."[18]
Scholars now believe that, among the various contributing factors, epidemic disease was the overwhelming cause of the population decline of the American natives.[19] After first contacts with Europeans and Africans, some believe that the death of 90 to 95% of the native population of the New World was caused by Old World diseases such as smallpox and measles

Whats your point ? My links said the same thing ? I never denied it was disease that caused the majority of deaths.

Disease cause by Catholics/Christians.

Just like deaths caused in the USSR as a result of famine were deaths caused by communists/anti-theists/atheists.

I think there is a subtle difference between inadvertently infecting a population with a disease they have never seen before and taking all of a populations food away or introducing "management techniques" that result in crop failure. And I don't think it can categorized as germ warfare either.

Why was the food taken away ? Because of atheism ?
Why were new management techniques introduced ? Atheism ? :pac:

They weren't killed because they were religious nor were they killed to promote atheism.

20th Century atheistic regimes are still ahead. Sorry mate.

Please check my post here.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=65933362#post65933362

Using your definition of whose responsible for what, Christian countries are well ahead. (You can subtract God's contribution if you like/don't believe these things happened.)

Again, for anyone reading this I don't believe christians are responsible for these deaths. Its a matter of using the same rules as the christians saying atheists are responsible for deaths.

StealthRolex

monosharp wrote: »

Again, for anyone reading this I don't believe christians are responsible for these deaths. Its a matter of using the same rules as the christians saying atheists are responsible for deaths.

True. It's just that atheists are responsible for more deaths than anyone else. It's a fact, get over it and move on.

monosharp

StealthRolex wrote: »

True. It's just that atheists are responsible for more deaths than anyone else. It's a fact, got over it and move on.

Not according to the statistics I posted which you haven't replied to.

StealthRolex

monosharp wrote: »

Not according to the statistics I posted which you haven't replied to.

You quote made up statistics including statistics for something you don't believe in and don't believe happened.

You make up numbers for wars with Christians involved and fail to differentiate how many Christians were killed or what they were fighting for.

You quote exaggerated numbers for people killed by disease.

All of the above debunked already by ISAW.

And then you cite yourself

What do you expect.

If you want to be dogmatic this is really not the place for it.

ISAW

monosharp wrote: »

Fair enough. Leaves all my statistics in place so for deaths caused by Christian countries.

And mine can be described as caused by Christians.

But not by regimes spreading Christianity. they are not deaths ordered by the Pope or a Bishop or in order to bring Chrsitianioty to heathens. With the exception of the Crusades that is.

Or if you take the 'deaths caused by atheists' route (as above) then all of my statistics stand.

Not just caused by atheists! Caused by regimes where spreading atheism and persecuting religion was central to their philosophy!

European colonisation of the America's resulting in the deaths of 100+ million people are deaths caused by Christians.

The roman Catholic Church didn't plan to remove all natives from the Us throught genocide. Ther was not "finaL SOLUTION" to pagan Americans.

Whats your point ? My links said the same thing ? I never denied it was disease that caused the majority of deaths.

Disease was not used to destroy 95 percent of Americans. It was NOT a plan!
Stalin and Mao DID plan to remove religious people.

Disease cause by Catholics/Christians.

No it wasn't caused by Christians. It was spread by people who mostlyhappened to be christian. But they does not mean the hirearchy of christianity planned to spread it! The hirearchy of atheistic communism however DID booth kill believers and plan to spread state atheism. Yes Christian countries promoted christianity but only rarely did they kill those who didn't accept Christiianity!

Just like deaths caused in the USSR as a result of famine were deaths caused by communists/anti-theists/atheists.

Famine was used as a WEAPON by stalin! "Scorched Earth" was the policy!

Why was the food taken away ? Because of atheism ?
Why were new management techniques introduced ? Atheism ?

Atheism was a central part of Stalinism and Maoism.

They weren't killed because they were religious nor were they killed to promote atheism.


Again fasgnadh:
Within about a year of the revolution the state expropriated
>>>> all church property, including the churches themselves,
>>>> and in the period from 1922 to 1926, 28 Russian Orthodox bishops
>>>> and more than 1,200 priests were killed (a much greater number
>>>> was subjected to persecution)

>>>> "The Soviet policy of state atheism (gosateizm), albeit
>>>> inconsistently applied, remains a major goal of official ideology.
>>>> Massive state resources have been expended not only to
>>>> prevent the implementing of religious belief in nonbelievers but
>>>> also to eradicate "prerevolutionary remnants" already existing.
>>>> The regime is not merely passively committed to a godless polity
>>>> but takes an aggressive stance of official forced atheization.
>>>> Thus a major task of the police apparatus is the persecution of
>>>> forms of religious practice. Not surprisingly the Commmittee for
>>>> State Security is reported to have a division dealing specifically
>>>> with "churchmen and sectarians"
>>>> - David Kowalewski, "Protest for Religious Rights in the USSR:
>>>> Characteristics and Consequences." 1980. The Russian Review.

>>>> # http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism#Wolak2004
>>>> #
>>>> # "State atheism is the official promotion of atheism
>>>> # by a government, typically by active suppression of
>>>> # religious freedom and practice."
>>>> # - "Protest for Religious Rights in the USSR:
>>>> # Characteristics and Consequences,
>>>> # David Kowalewski,
>>>> # Russian Review, Vol. 39, No. 4 (Oct., 1980), pp. 426-441,
>>>> #
>>>> #
>>>> # "An atheist, Pol Pot suppressed Cambodia£s Buddhist religion:
>>>> # monks were defrocked; temples and artifacts, including statues of
>>>> # Buddha, were destroyed; and people praying or expressing
>>>> # other religious sentiments were often killed.
>>>> # ...the government emptied the cities through mass evacuations
>>>> # and sent people to the countryside. Cambodians were overworked
>>>> # and underfed on collective farms, often succumbing to disease or
>>>> # starvation as a result. Spouses were separated and family meals
>>>> # prohibited in order to steer loyalties toward the state
>>>> # instead of the family.



Not all COMMUNIST governments have been catastrophic
failures, (China reformed its constitution,
permitting religions to function, and has progressed
phenomenally) ..but all ATHEIST ones have been!!!

>>>>>> The common feature is that those tyrannies were ALL ATHEIST REGIMES,
>>>>>> and in fact were the ONLY atheist regimes in history. 100% of
>>>>>> atheist regimes, without exception, have been murderous tyrannies!

Please check my post here.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=65933362#post65933362

Using your definition of whose responsible for what, Christian countries are well ahead. (You can subtract God's contribution if you like/don't believe these things happened.)

Again, for anyone reading this I don't believe christians are responsible for these deaths. Its a matter of using the same rules as the christians saying atheists are responsible for deaths.

Your post makes up numbers without source and lumps in atheistic regimes with what you claim are "Christian" ones! the only source indirectly referred to in it is the bible!

Zombrex

ISAW wrote: »

But not by regimes spreading Christianity. they are not deaths ordered by the Pope or a Bishop or in order to bring Chrsitianioty to heathens. With the exception of the Crusades that is.

Ah, so when the statistics don't go your way you simply change the goal posts. Shocking.

The deaths you quoted from "atheist regimes" are mostly famine related due to poor policies and mis-management. That is hardly "spreading atheism" is it. :rolleyes:

How many Christian regimes also started famines? Or where they not "true" Christians

StealthRolex

Wicknight wrote: »

Ah, so when the statistics don't go your way you simply change the goal posts. Shocking.

The deaths you quoted from "atheist regimes" are mostly famine related due to poor policies and mis-management. That is hardly "spreading atheism" is it. :rolleyes:

How many Christian regimes also started famines? Or where they not "true" Christians

When statistics don't go your way you change history. Hmmm.

You also appear to be defending Stalin's policies. Is this correct?

Festus

monosharp wrote: »

By the way, I've just noticed with your last list of statistics that you included famines in the USSR and China to come up with your 'total'. You really think that the governments caused famines on purpose and because of atheism ?

You really should read some authoratitive history books. It's not a question of belief but of recorded historical fact.
Stalin used food as a weapon and caused famines on purpose.
The Chinese...? well they just did things like Anglo Irish and left the peasants to die.

because for an atheist man as nothing more than a highly evolved animal it stands to reason that an atheist with power will be a loathsome creature. Histiry tellls us this is true

Zombrex

Festus wrote: »

You really should read some authoratitive history books. It's not a question of belief but of recorded historical fact.
Stalin used food as a weapon and caused famines on purpose.

To promote atheism? How does that work exactly?

Festus

Wicknight wrote: »

To promote atheism? How does that work exactly?

state terrorism. do what you're told or die. Stalin wanted atheism to be the religion of the ussr and confiscation of grain was one of the methods used to enforce the power of the governement.

It doesn't work, just pees people off, at least those left with any energy to remain alive but not enough energy to overthrough the oppressores

monosharp

StealthRolex wrote: »

You quote made up statistics including statistics for something you don't believe in and don't believe happened.

I quoted no made up statistics, they're all from wikipedia as I already said and other sources are only a google away.

I also don't believe in gods 'killings', but I assumed you did. I said I will happily discount them, just say they are made up and wrong.

You make up numbers for wars with Christians involved and fail to differentiate how many Christians were killed or what they were fighting for.

Oh, a bit like your statistics for Stalin, Mao etc ? Nowhere did you differentiate between atheists killed or what they were fighting for.

You quote exaggerated numbers for people killed by disease.

No it didn't. Please see wiki or any other number of sources.

monosharp

ISAW wrote: »

But not by regimes spreading Christianity. they are not deaths ordered by the Pope or a Bishop or in order to bring Chrsitianioty to heathens. With the exception of the Crusades that is.

Everywhere christian countries have counquered they have brought christianity and forced conversions on the native populations. Africa, America, Australia, Asia etc.

The genocide caused in the Americas where over 100 million people died also had christians forcing their religion on the natives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_conversion#Christianity

Additionally, the economic conquest of the Americas by various European forces coincided with and depended on forced conversion to undo indigenous culture resistant to assimilation.

http://www.rsiss.net/religinamerica/bkmartin.html

The third chapter, "Native and Christian," looks at various Native American responses to Christianity. From forced to voluntary religious conversion, Christianity had an enormous impact upon Native Americans. From charismatic leaders and sympathetic missionaries to other forms of missionary activity that were brutal and coercive, Native Americans were involved with multiple types of Christianity.

Not just caused by atheists! Caused by regimes where spreading atheism and persecuting religion was central to their philosophy!

Yes, like the European countries where christianity was central to their government, society and philosophy and theiy forced conversion of the native Americans.

The roaman Catholic Church didn't plan to remove all natives from the Us throught genocide. Ther was not "finaL SOLUTION" to pagan Americans.

- No they didn't plan to. But your statistics don't make any differentiation between what was planned and what wasn't.
- It wasn't their 'final solution' to the americans, but it inspired Hitler because of its efficiency.

Disease was not used to destroy 95 percent of Americans. It was NOT a plan!
Stalin and Mao DID plan to remove religious people.

- I never said it was a plan.
- Stalin and Mao did remove religious people, the Christians in America did remove the native american religions and religious leaders.

Your statistics also do not differentiate between people killed for their religion or people killed for any other reason.

No it wasn't caused by Christians.

Most Europeans were christian, they went to the Americas, they spread disease (unplanned) and wiped out 95% of the population. ergo it was caused by Christians.

This is the same logic you are applying to the USSR and Mao etc.
I know its nonsense, thats my argument but you don't seem to listen so I'm just playing your game.

But they does not mean the hirearchy of christianity planned to spread it!

I never suggested they did. This is the 3rd or 4th strawman you have thrown in here and I normally hate using the word so don't use it but this is getting ridiculous now. Please argue against what I'm saying, not your version of what I'm saying.

The hirearchy of atheistic communism however DID booth kill believers and plan to spread state atheism.

Like religious regimes converted or killed anyone not in their group ?

Yes Christian countries promoted christianity but only rarely did they kill those who didn't accept Christiianity!

They killed millions for not accepting their way of life, the populations in the America's, Australia and parts of Africa have been destroyed because of it.

Famine was used as a WEAPON by stalin! "Scorched Earth" was the policy!

Scorched Earth against the Nazi's. Against an invading army.

Its wrong to kill nazi's now ? Because a few posts back you supported the (christian) countries in WW2 for fighting Nazi Germany.

Atheism was a central part of Stalinism and Maoism.

Christianity was a central part of every European Country, Australia, South Africa and the USA when they committed terrible crimes and genocides.

Your post makes up numbers without source and lumps in atheistic regimes with what you claim are "Christian" ones! the only source indirectly referred to in it is the bible!

I have given my sources several times now. Its not my fault you haven't read them.

monosharp

Festus wrote: »

You really should read some authoratitive history books. It's not a question of belief but of recorded historical fact.
Stalin used food as a weapon and caused famines on purpose.
The Chinese...? well they just did things like Anglo Irish and left the peasants to die.

I'm very well read on Stalin and WW2 as a whole. I wasn't suggesting that he didn't do it or that the famines didn't occur.

because for an atheist man as nothing more than a highly evolved animal it stands to reason that an atheist with power will be a loathsome creature. Histiry tellls us this is true

First of all your mates above are arguing that these deaths were caused because of Atheism, they continue to change the goal posts. Sometimes the deaths are caused to 'spread atheism', the next time they were killed because atheism was 'integral to communist philosophy' and other times they were killed simply 'by atheists'.

You seem to be arguing that Atheism is responsible for these peoples deaths because 'atheists with power' have no morals etc which is a different argument altogether. Its also nonsense.

You gave a rebuttal to your own argument, the Irish famine was overseen by Christians. :pac:

monosharp

Festus wrote: »

state terrorism. do what you're told or die. Stalin wanted atheism to be the religion of the ussr and confiscation of grain was one of the methods used to enforce the power of the governement.

Like the Christian English/French/German/Spanish etc Kings/Governments confiscated crops/foods to enforce their power ?

Enforcing the power of the government has got what to do with promoting atheism ?

ISAW

Wicknight wrote: »

Ah, so when the statistics don't go your way you simply change the goal posts. Shocking.

1. You didnt supply any stats you made them up!
2. The only sources you provide were ALREADY provided - by ME!
3. In the stats I PROVIDED I clearly stated the deaths caused by christians in the cause of spreading christianity. I admitted those deaths from the get go!

The reason for doing this was because atheists elsewhere argued the "just because they were atheists does not mean they did these things as part of an atheistic regime". So what I did was supply stats of people killed by christian regimes for the purpose of enforcing or spreading Christianity and compared them to atheistic regimes which wanted to supress religion and spread atheism. It is quite simple and clearly understandable. No goal posts were changed. the goal was to compare those who specificcaly wanted to enforce atheism to those who specifically wanted to enforce Christianity.

The deaths you quoted from "atheist regimes" are mostly famine related due to poor policies and mis-management. That is hardly "spreading atheism" is it. :rolleyes:

you are in denial! Fasgnadh again:
>> http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/392millo...

>>>> #
>>>> # "The country's 40,000 to 60,000 Buddhist monks,
>>>> # regarded by the regime as social parasites,
>>>> # were defrocked and forced into labor brigades.
>>>> # Many monks were executed; temples and pagodas were
>>>> # destroyed or turned into storehouses or jails.
>>>> # Images of the Buddha were defaced and dumped into
>>>> # rivers and lakes. People who were discovered praying
>>>> # or expressing religious sentiments in other ways
>>>> # were often killed.
>>>> #
>>>> # The Christian and Muslim communities were among the most
>>>> # persecuted, as well. The Roman Catholic cathedral of
>>>> # Phnom Penh was completely razed.
>>>> #
>>>> # The Khmer Rouge forced Muslims to eat pork, which they
>>>> # regard as an abomination. Many of those who refused were killed.
>>>> # Christian clergy and Muslim imams were executed."
>>>> # - http://countrystudies.us/cambodia/29.htm
>>>> #
>>>> # "Forty-eight percent of Cambodia's Christians were killed
>>>> # because of their religion."
>>>> #

Subject: Re: The "No True Scotsman" Fallacy
In-Reply-To: <4B25DDAB.E302B7A7@netvigator.com>
Message-ID: <zRIVm.62469$ze1.51845@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 09:41:51 GMT

How many Christian regimes also started famines? Or where they not "true" Christians

Short answer NONE to my knowledge comrade.
If they started famines to punish unbelievers or enforce Christianity then show us the stats and we will include them as "deaths caused by christian regimes where the spreading of Christianity was central to their philosophy".

ISAW

Wicknight wrote: »

To promote atheism? How does that work exactly?

Atheism was a central pillar of Stalinism.

Fasgnadh from the abive source again:

"the state established atheism as the only scientific truth."
- Daniel Peris,
"Storming the Heavens: The Soviet League of the Militant Godless"
Cornell University Press 1998 ISBN 9780801434853

>>>> # "State atheism has been mostly implemented in communist
>>>> # countries, such as the former Soviet Union,[1] China,
>>>> # Communist Albania, Communist Afghanistan, North Korea,
>>>> # Communist Mongolia and Poland under communist rule also
>>>> # promoted state atheism and suppressed religion.
>>>> # - Forced out: the fate of Polish Jewry in Communist Poland.
>>>> # Wolak, Arthur J. p 104
>>>> #
>>>> # In these nations, the governments viewed atheism as an
>>>> # intrinsic part of communist ideology.

"Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism."
-Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)
"Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism."
- Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)
"How can you make a revolution without firing squads?"
- Lenin
http://altatheismfaq.blogspot.com/

ISAW

monosharp wrote: »

Everywhere christian countries have counquered they have brought christianity and forced conversions on the native populations. Africa, America, Australia, Asia etc.

And i supplied Rummel as a source. And the figures are no where near what you claim!

The genocide caused in the Americas where over 100 million people died also had christians forcing their religion on the natives.

Made up figure!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_conversion#Christianity

CCaontains NO reference to 100 Million deaths and refers mostly to 20th century!


http://www.rsiss.net/religinamerica/bkmartin.html

Again no 100 million and the only date referred to is 1890!

Yes, like the European countries where christianity was central to their government, society and philosophy and theiy forced conversion of the native Americans.

Nobody denies this! What I deny is your claim that Christianity caused over 100 million deaths in america through forced conversion!

- No they didn't plan to. But your statistics don't make any differentiation between what was planned and what wasn't.

They do! Then are sourced from a person who talke sof democede death by government PLANNED!

- I never said it was a plan.
- Stalin and Mao did remove religious people, the Christians in America did remove the native american religions and religious leaders.

Stalin an Mao PLANNED deaths and destruction as part of their policy. a policy wiich had atheism as a central plank! christians did not such thing! Yes maybe some Christians killed natives and regarded them as sub human but not under the orders or plan of a church and not over 100 Million of them!

Your statistics also do not differentiate between people killed for their religion or people killed for any other reason.

Killed by a regime - in some cases the regime was Christian and in some cases atheistic.
The stats do differentiate because the slaughter of say Muslims by a crusade because of their religion is clearly indicated as is the slaughter of believers by Stalin Pol Pot etc. because they were believers

Most Europeans were christian, they went to the Americas, they spread disease (unplanned) and wiped out 95% of the population. ergo it was caused by Christians.

I do not deny that. and if Stalin inadvertantly brought famine and disease I would accept it was not part of his athiestic killing machine. But as it happens famine and scorched Earth was used as a weapon by him.

You cant really be arguing that a European disease brought to the Americas was part of Christianities plan to attack non Christians and spread Christianity can you?

"Caused unintentionally by " and "intentionally planned by " are two DIFFERENT things!

They killed millions for not accepting their way of life, the populations in the America's, Australia and parts of Africa have been destroyed because of it.

You are sneaking the "intention" back in ! Christians did not kill over 100 million Americans for not accepting their way of life! You are wrong!

Scorched Earth against the Nazi's. Against an invading army.

You are still in denial:

# "The country's 40,000 to 60,000 Buddhist monks,
# regarded by the regime as social parasites,
# were defrocked and forced into labor brigades.
# Many monks were executed; temples and pagodas were
# destroyed or turned into storehouses or jails.
# Images of the Buddha were defaced and dumped into
# rivers and lakes. People who were discovered praying
# or expressing religious sentiments in other ways
# were often killed.
#
# The Christian and Muslim communities were among the most
# persecuted, as well. The Roman Catholic cathedral of
# Phnom Penh was completely razed.
#
# The Khmer Rouge forced Muslims to eat pork, which they
# regard as an abomination. Many of those who refused were killed.
# Christian clergy and Muslim imams were executed."
# - http://countrystudies.us/cambodia/29.htm

Its wrong to kill nazi's now ? Because a few posts back you supported the (christian) countries in WW2 for fighting Nazi Germany.

It is wrong to kill civilians. Even if you do it to stop the enemy. It is today what we call "terrorism".

Christianity was a central part of every European Country, Australia, South Africa and the USA when they committed terrible crimes and genocides.

Indeed! and it was the Catholics in Germany who didn't vote for Hitler and the Pope who opposed him etc. Ther is an old story about a man looking back over his life as a series of steps in the sand . He notices two sets of steps and asks what they were. That says God is because I walked beside you all your life. The man says "but look at the really difficult parts there is only on set of footprints . Is that where you deserted me?" "No" said God "That is where I carried you"

I have given my sources several times now. Its not my fault you haven't read them.

I have read then all. Most of the proper one's are MINE not yours! and of the others you have made up stats like "over 1200 million dead in the early colonisation of the Americas" and used references to the nineteenth century to back this up !

monosharp

ISAW wrote: »

1. You didnt supply any stats you made them up!

I don't think he provided any stats, made up ones or not.

Are you talking to me ? My stats are from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_disasters_by_death_toll and I gave other sources many times now in posts you haven't answered.

2. The only sources you provide were ALREADY provided - by ME!

No they weren't. I gave wiki and 2 or 3 others for some specific stats.

3. In the stats I PROVIDED I clearly stated the deaths caused by christians in the cause of spreading christianity. I admitted those deaths from the get go!

You gave the crusades, inquisition and something else. A tiny fraction of deaths caused by Christians.

"in the cause of spreading christianity", so are we back to "in the cause of spreading atheism" again ? If so then all of your stats are worthless. No one has ever killed anyone to spread atheism.

The reason for doing this was because atheists elsewhere argued the "just because they were atheists does not mean they did these things as part of an atheistic regime". So what I did was supply stats of people killed by christian regimes for the purpose of enforcing or spreading Christianity and compared them to atheistic regimes which wanted to supress religion and spread atheism.

You provided stats for deaths caused by states where atheism was part of their policy, those people were killed for many reasons, the main one being political.

You then provided stats only for christian caused deaths which were directly caused by a policy of promoting the christian religion.

If you were being fair you would have provided deaths caused by Christians where Christianity was part of their policy, which I did.

It is quite simple and clearly understandable. No goal posts were changed. the goal was to compare those who specificcaly wanted to enforce atheism to those who specifically wanted to enforce Christianity.

Ok so your goal is to gather the stats for those who wanted to enforce atheism and those who wanted to enforce christianity ? OK.

Your stats show people killed by Stalin/Mao etc, they don't show why they were killed.

Your stats for Stalin are nonsense. Stalin was opposed to religion for political reasons, not for the promotion of atheism.
Your stats for Mao are nonsense. Mao was opposed to religion for political reasons, not for the promotion of atheism.

May I also point point out that you haven't answered my point about Stalin promoting religion during WW2.

you are in denial! Fasgnadh again:

What makes you think that quoting someone else on the internet is a good source ?

Short answer NONE to my knowledge comrade.

Well how about picking just one ?

The US government caused famines on Native American reservations.

If they started famines to punish unbelievers or enforce Christianity then show us the stats and we will include them as "deaths caused by christian regimes where the spreading of Christianity was central to their philosophy"

And you think Stalin started famines to punish the religious or enforce atheism, that was the reason ?

Anyways, I've already stated the US government and I'll add forced conversions to that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United_States#Assimilation

At this time American society thought that Native American children needed to be acculturated to the general society. The boarding school experience often proved traumatic to Native American children, who were forbidden to speak their native languages, taught Christianity and denied the right to practice their native religions, and in numerous other ways forced to abandon their Native American identities[60] and adopt European-American culture. There were documented cases of sexual, physical and mental abuse occurring at these schools.

So you can add 100+ million to the Christian total.

monosharp

ISAW wrote: »

Made up figure!

Henry F. Dobyns, Their number become thinned: native American population dynamics in eastern North America, University of Tennessee, 1983
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_disasters_by_death_toll

112,000,000 deaths - European colonization of the Americas - 1492-1900 Although heavily disputed, many historians consider the deaths caused by disease, displacement, and conquest of Native American populations during European settlement of North and South America as constituting an act of genocide (or series of genocides). The genocidal aspects of this event are entwined with loss of life caused by the lack of immunity of Native Americans to diseases carried by European settlers and their livestock (see Population history of American indigenous peoples).

If you like, a 10 second google will give you further sources with a similar number.

http://www.rsiss.net/religinamerica/bkmartin.html

Again no 100 million and the only date referred to is 1890!

This was presented as a source for forced conversions, not for the genocide caused.

Nobody denies this! What I deny is your claim that Christianity caused over 100 million deaths in america through forced conversion!

I never said any such thing. I said;
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65960670&postcount=477

monosharp wrote:

Everywhere christian countries have counquered they have brought christianity and forced conversions on the native populations. Africa, America, Australia, Asia etc.

The genocide caused in the Americas where over 100 million people died also had christians forcing their religion on the natives.

They do! Then are sourced from a person who talke sof democede death by government PLANNED!

Oh ? I must have missed that. Link please ?

Stalin an Mao PLANNED deaths and destruction as part of their policy.

Yes of course they did. Their political goals largely required it.

a policy wiich had atheism as a central plank!

Which had nothing to do with the politics.

The stats do differentiate because the slaughter of say Muslims by a crusade because of their religion is clearly indicated as is the slaughter of believers by Stalin Pol Pot etc. because they were believers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Religion

How many people did you say Stalin killed because of their religion again ?

I do not deny that. and if Stalin inadvertantly brought famine and disease I would accept it was not part of his athiestic killing machine. But as it happens famine and scorched Earth was used as a weapon by him.

Against whom ?

The scorched Earth policy was obviously used against the Nazi's in context of war.

As for the famines; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin

Some have also included deaths of 6 to 8 million people in the 1932–1933 famine as victims of Stalin's repression. This categorization is controversial however, as historians differ as to whether the famine was a deliberate part of the campaign of repression against kulaks and others,[43][88] or simply an unintended consequence of the struggle over forced collectivization.

You cant really be arguing that a European disease brought to the Americas was part of Christianities plan to attack non Christians and spread Christianity can you?

Of course I can. When you argue that Stalins genocides were carried out because of atheism and spread atheism.

"Caused unintentionally by " and "intentionally planned by " are two DIFFERENT things!

You might want to read up on the genocide against the native americans and the part christians played in it.

You are sneaking the "intention" back in ! Christians did not kill over 100 million Americans for not accepting their way of life! You are wrong!

And Stalin did not kill people for not accepting atheism! You are wrong!

The difference is I know it and accept it. You refuse to.

You are still in denial:

# "The country's 40,000 to 60,000 Buddhist monks,
..............

Will you please stop copying and pasting from Usenet ? If I want to partake in that discussion I'll go there.

It is wrong to kill civilians. Even if you do it to stop the enemy. It is today what we call "terrorism".

And Christian (countries) are responsible for untold amounts of killing.

Indeed! and it was the Catholics in Germany who didn't vote for Hitler and the Pope who opposed him etc.

The Catholics didn't vote for Hitler. Neither did the Communists. Are the Catholics and Communists friends now ?

You know that protestants voted for Hitler ? especially poor rural protestants ?

He notices two sets of steps and asks what they were. That says God is because I walked beside you all your life. The man says "but look at the really difficult parts there is only on set of footprints . Is that where you deserted me?" "No" said God "That is where I carried you"

Oh please. My grandmother had this on her mantelpiece, its meaningless nonsense.

I have read then all. Most of the proper one's are MINE not yours! and of the others you have made up stats like "over 1200 million dead in the early colonisation of the Americas" and used references to the nineteenth century to back this up !

What are you talking about ?!?!?

Its right here -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_disasters_by_death_toll#Genocides_and_alleged_genocides

I've posted it a dozen times now and you are still saying I didn't.

ISAW

monosharp wrote: »

I'm very well read on Stalin and WW2 as a whole.

Argument from authority isn't argument at all comrade.

First of all your mates above are arguing that these deaths were caused because of Atheism, they continue to change the goal posts.

By regimes which had atheism as central:
"Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism."
-Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)


"Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism."
- Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

Sometimes the deaths are caused to 'spread atheism', the next time they were killed because atheism was 'integral to communist philosophy' and other times they were killed simply 'by atheists'.

Nope. ALL by atheistic regimes as defined. No changes by me there!

You seem to be arguing that Atheism is responsible for these peoples deaths because 'atheists with power' have no morals etc which is a different argument altogether. Its also nonsense.

You gave a rebuttal to your own argument, the Irish famine was overseen by Christians.

The Irish famine was not instigated to spread Christianity! If you can show that the Irish famine happened because a religion wanted to convert or kill-off those who did not convert to their religion then you can add in those numbers as well. You would to some degree be correct, but if you delve a little deeper you will find many Protestant denominations didn't operate a policy of of "convert or die" on Catholics although some did. but it was nowhere near 100 Million! It may however have been in the thousands or tens of thousands of deaths caused by inter christian factions fighting.

However for example take Cromwell a puritanical Protestant responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of Irish Catholics. He DID instigate a religious war. But at the same time the underpinning values of christianity also brought the genesis of modern parliamentary democracy. what did atheistic communism bring? Horrible buildings retrograde economics and death! All the socialist teachings of communism were already there in Christian social teaching. It was the militant atheistic variety that caused untold destruction. Even "bad " Christian regimes buiild up society to some degree. what did atheistic ones contribute?

Russia - they basically RUINED the largest country in the world which was a world power and was religious before the atheists took over!

China- Richest country in the world for four centuries until the atheists took over and introduced cultural devolution! Now since they have relaxed their enforced atheism they are beginning to grow.

Albania, Cambodia etc. - all a mess! what atheistic countries are giving anything to the world? Oh yeah North Korea that tested an atomic bomb recently as a gift to the world didn't they?

monosharp

ISAW wrote: »

Argument from authority isn't argument at all comrade.

That wasn't an argument, as you well know. It was in response to someone misunderstanding my position and suggesting I read some books about it.

Nope. ALL by atheistic regimes as defined. No changes by me there!

And all Christian regimes as defined. Millions of innocent people killed because of Christian countries.

The Irish famine was not instigated to spread Christianity!

Stalins famines were not instigated to spread atheism.

If you can show that the Irish famine happened because a religion wanted to convert or kill-off those who did not convert to their religion then you can add in those numbers as well.

If you can show that the Russian famines happened because Stalin wanted to convert or kill-off those who did not convert to atheism then I'll accept your numbers. But you can't and you know you can't.

what did atheistic communism bring?

Oh so now we're onto who has done the most good for civilisation ? and you said you weren't moving the goalposts ?

Russia - they basically RUINED the largest country in the world which was a world power and was religious before the atheists took over!

Ruined ? Do you know the state Russia was in under the tzars ?

Albania, Cambodia etc. - all a mess! what atheistic countries are giving anything to the world? Oh yeah North Korea that tested an atomic bomb recently as a gift to the world didn't they?

North Korea is the most religious country in the world.

ISAW

monosharp wrote: »

Henry F. Dobyns, Their number become thinned: native American population dynamics in eastern North America, University of Tennessee, 1983
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_disasters_by_death_toll

And yet another link originally supplied by - ME!
Haven't you got any of your own?

You then go on to quote something which begins "although heavily disputed"
And you didnt go asnd look at the original publication! Yu just plucked the number from wikipedia! Not alone that but it is a "highest estimate " of 112 Million when the "lowest estimate" is TWO million!

Here is the actual original of the lowest estimate
http://www.millersville.edu/~columbus/papers/goodling.html

you are basically arguing that "AIDS is a punishment from God". It is patent nonsense!
You just can argue that Christianity is responsible for intentionally spreading disease like Stalin is responsible for killing of religious believers!

If you like, a 10 second google will give you further sources with a similar number.

I like! I like! You haven't supplied anything but sources I already supplied . If it is so easy then you supply them! I already gave you the book and the sources are referenced on page 59. While you are on your way to the library do a search on "burden of proof" would you? You will find it listed under "logical fallacy".

Of course I can. When you argue that Stalins genocides were carried out because of atheism and spread atheism.

You are in denial. You have been given examples from stalin Mao and Pol Pot where they persecuted religious believers specifically to promote State atheism.

You might want to read up on the genocide against the native americans and the part christians played in it.

You might want to support your claim that Christianity as a philosophy is responsible for planning the deaths of over 100 million Native Americans just as Stalin or Mao's state atheism policies are responsible for killing religious believers! handwaving arguments like "I know all about it and you don't" do not suffice to establish your proposition comrade.

And Stalin did not kill people for not accepting atheism! You are wrong!

Lenin's Regime (1917-24)

* Rummel blames Lenin for a lifetime total of 4,017,000 democides.

Figes, Orlando (A People's Tragedy: A History of the Russian Revolution, 1997)
Jews killed in pogroms: 150,000


"Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism."
-Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

"Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism."
- Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

The difference is I know it and accept it. You refuse to.

You are in denial and I do not refer to the river comrade.
http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/soviet.exhibit/anti_rel.html
The Soviet Union was the first state to have as an ideological objective the elimination of religion.

Will you please stop copying and pasting from Usenet ? If I want to partake in that discussion I'll go there.

You wont supply any sources. I supply then and quote from commentary on them. You don't supply any evidence of your own and when confronted with the evidence which is in the public domain for years you try to avoid it by turning a reference into a "cut and paste"

I don't want to get into a "telling you how to debate" thread which people hove complained about elsewhere so I ll just supply you with another link instead
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citation

And Christian (countries) are responsible for untold amounts of killing.

They are NOT! I've supplied the lists done by academic researchers and hands up christian regimes have killed people. Millions maybe. But when i say "millions" it is about one or two millions over 500 years. Atheistic regimes ( evidence supplied = atheism and removal of religion central to their dogma) killed over a hundred million in half a century. Ten time less period a hundred times more victims = a thousand times the deaths per year.

It is quantifiable!

The Catholics didn't vote for Hitler. Neither did the Communists. Are the Catholics and Communists friends now ?

Some communists are or can be Catholics. Monks for example live in a communist system "from each according to his ability to each according to his needs".
So what?
I'm referring to anti religious militant atheistic regimes.

It doesw not mean all communists are christian or vice versa!
You won't get me "affirming the consequent" here .
All communists have beards
ISAW has a beard
ISAW is therefore a communist?

It appears to be something that might work on an american or a fundamentalist Christian.
The thing is unlike US conservatives - I'm not anti communist!

You know that protestants voted for Hitler ? especially poor rural protestants ?

Yes Im aware of that and some protestant hierarchy supported him. That does not mean Christianity supported Hitler! The Pope in fact opposed him and Catholics didn't vote for him so I think you can drop that line of argument!

Its right here -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_disasters_by_death_toll#Genocides_and_alleged_genocides

I've posted it a dozen times now and you are still saying I didn't.

LOL "Alleged"? By the way I thing it was I=ME who first posted that link. I don't think you posted it a dozen times. Care to list where you did? And care to show how it supports your argument?

Zombrex

StealthRolex wrote: »

When statistics don't go your way you change history. Hmmm.

You also appear to be defending Stalin's policies. Is this correct?

What?

Please point out what part of my post you think was "defending Stalin's policies."

(this should be interesting)

Zombrex

Festus wrote: »

state terrorism. do what you're told or die.

Ah so it wasn't promoting atheism, it was promoting totalitarianism.

Stalin could have wanted everyone to have a mustache and used the same methods, it really had little to do with promoting atheism and everything to do with Stalin wanting everyone to do as they were told by him. The only connection between cause famine and promoting atheism is that this happened to be what Stalin was telling everyone to do. There is nothing inherently promotional of atheism in a famine. Correct?

ISAW

monosharp wrote: »

I don't think he provided any stats, made up ones or not.

Are you talking to me ? My stats are from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_disasters_by_death_toll and I gave other sources many times now in posts you haven't answered.

1. That list of death tolls was provided first by ME as far as I am aware. Please show you provided it before i did and i will admit i am wrong about that.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65945678&postcount=457
where i posted it. followed by

come to think of it that is probably your SOURCE but maybe you didn't want to refer to it because it lists so many non religious wars? LOL! i was wondering where you got the "deluge" war from?

All you have to do now is show a post in the 256 prior posts to that message where you supplied the above source. can you do that?

No they weren't. I gave wiki and 2 or 3 others for some specific stats.

And I suggest the TWO (not three ) others were Rummel - supplied originally by me and EROLS - supplied also originally by guess who?

You are the one saying it is only a Google away and yet you don't seem to have supplied any original sources? Why not? And why when you clearly DID know the above source did you not supply it? Why did you leave it to me to supply it? Is it perhaps because of all the OTHER non Christian genocides listed in that source which dwarf the so called "Christian" ones?

You gave the crusades, inquisition and something else. A tiny fraction of deaths caused by Christians.

I went through Rummel's entire list! I did it some time ago on usenet! I can go through it again here. IT is about a thousand lines long. I picked out those democides particularly associated with Christianity.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP2.HTM
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB2.1A.GIF
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB2.1B.GIF
750 lines
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB16A.1.GIF
220 lines more.

I didn't hide the sources! Feel free to quote for any line

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE5.HTM

You will have some problems terming any BC dated regimes as "Christian"
I have already dealt with the roman empire and rummel gives figures in Chapter 2

"in the cause of spreading christianity", so are we back to "in the cause of spreading atheism" again ? If so then all of your stats are worthless. No one has ever killed anyone to spread atheism.

"the state established atheism as the only scientific truth."
- Daniel Peris,
"Storming the Heavens: The Soviet League of the Militant Godless"
Cornell University Press 1998 ISBN 9780801434853

The facts of State atheism are well documented, all committed by
Atheist leaders of a totalitarian tyranny in which PARTY MEMBERS were
all ATHEISTS.

"Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism."
-Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

"Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism."
- Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

"How can you make a revolution without firing squads?"
- Lenin

If you were being fair you would have provided deaths caused by Christians where Christianity was part of their policy, which I did.

If Christianity as a policy led directly to deaths as atheists persecuting believers did!

Pol Pot and Stalin and Mao surpressed religion = killed adherents to spread a policy of the state being atheistic and to spread atheism. It was NOT A CASE OF cHINA TAKING OVER TIBET AND just happening to bring disease. China specifically set out to destroy religion there! Christians did NOT set out to bring disease to America as part of a plan to introduce religion!

Ok so your goal is to gather the stats for those who wanted to enforce atheism and those who wanted to enforce christianity ? OK.

Your stats show people killed by Stalin/Mao etc, they don't show why they were killed.

Indeed they do. i dint bother showing links to christians being crucified. I posted links to the policy doccuments and letters from Lenin Stalin etc. Pogronms of Jews etc. I posted references to Pol Pot forcing Muslims to eat pork and slaughtering monks! and you want people to believe he slaughterhd priests and monks because of an "economic plan" or something ? It was done BECAUSE they were Jews or Priests!

Your stats for Stalin are nonsense. Stalin was opposed to religion for political reasons, not for the promotion of atheism.

You are muddying the waters. He opposed religion and promoted atheism! that is what we are looking at! The stats show surpression of religion. Look Im not claiming that religious regimes who killed people were doing it for political reasons. clearly I can claim they were ouot for themselves and not supporting christianity. The point is that the held positions of seniority on the church and over saw or ordered the death of people - just as stalin did! Whether they personally did this because they were atheist or not is aside from the policy of state religion or state atheism. Maybe some evil Popes were atheist? the point is that the Church they were over perpetrated terrible things.

Your stats for Mao are nonsense. Mao was opposed to religion for political reasons, not for the promotion of atheism.

1. Not MY stats! The stats are researched by an academic who specialises in that fiels.
2. See aboive regarding "stalin did it for political reasons" sidestep.

May I also point point out that you haven't answered my point about Stalin promoting religion during WW2.

LOL! for "political reasons"
Stalin didnt promote religion. he surpressed it! But religion survided non the less. So in certain areas like the Ukraine he had an official religion while he was figiting the Nazis in order to get their adherents to attack the Germans. But he still went on surpressing all the other religions and having atheism as a policy. And after the Germans were beaten his actual policy re emerged on the orthodox Church as well.

What makes you think that quoting someone else on the internet is a good source ?

What makes you think it is someone else? I quote Fasgnadh to show it is not necessarily my personal opinion. furthermore the Fasgnadh persona is not a believer. And the points made are supported by simniular sources erols and Rummel for example

By erols I mean Matthew White
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/war-1900.htm

The US government caused famines on Native American reservations.

While they "trust in God" the US government are not led by a religion. The constitution separates religion and government. It is a secular state. The famines were not caused to spread Christianity!

And you think Stalin started famines to punish the religious or enforce atheism, that was the reason ?

Part of it. Certainly persecuting any religious belief was part of his plan. Secular oir Christian countries don't as a rule persecute non Christians . They have done it in history but the occurrences are minor in comparison to atheistic states. And the ones that did do it contributed in other ways. What did Stalin and Mao give us? State atheism The great leap backward cultural devolution and death.

Anyways, I've already stated the US government and I'll add forced conversions to that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United_States#Assimilation


So you can add 100+ million to the Christian total.

LOL none of the above reference is anywhere near 100 million! I do not deny natives were mistreated but not exclusively by Christians and the hardships bad and all as they were were tame compared to Stalin or Mao.

Zombrex

ISAW wrote: »

>>>> # "The country's 40,000 to 60,000 Buddhist monks,
>>>> # regarded by the regime as social parasites,
>>>> # were defrocked and forced into labor brigades.

So you have gone from millions deaths in the country as a result of the "promotion of atheism" to 60,000?

And you are complaining about our statistics?

ISAW

Wicknight wrote: »

Ah so it wasn't promoting atheism, it was promoting totalitarianism.

Stalin could have wanted everyone to have a mustache and used the same methods, it really had little to do with promoting atheism and everything to do with Stalin wanting everyone to do as they were told by him. The only connection between cause famine and promoting atheism is that this happened to be what Stalin was telling everyone to do. There is nothing inherently promotional of atheism in a famine. Correct?

Fasgnadh again:
Message-ID: <oLFNm.56309$ze1.18947@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 23:37:56 GMT

‘No True Scotsman’ Fallacy

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/no-true-scotsman/

The no true Scotsman fallacy is a way of reinterpreting evidence in
order to prevent the refutation of one’s position. Proposed
counter-examples to a theory are dismissed as irrelevant solely because
they are counter-examples, but purportedly because they are not what the
theory is about.

Example

The No True Scotsman fallacy involves discounting evidence that would
refute a proposition, concluding that it hasn’t been falsified when in
fact it has.

If Angus, a Glaswegian, who puts sugar on his porridge, is proposed as a
counter-example to the claim “No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge”,
the ‘No true Scotsman’ fallacy would run as follows:

(1) Angus puts sugar on his porridge.
(2) No (true) Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.

Therefore:
(3) Angus is not a (true) Scotsman.

Therefore:
(4) Angus is not a counter-example to the claim that
no Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.

This fallacy is a form of circular argument, with an existing belief
being assumed to be true in order to dismiss any apparent
counter-examples to it. The existing belief thus becomes unfalsifiable."

Real-World Examples

An argument similar to this is often arises when people attempt to
defend the historical reality of atheism. For example

EVERY atheist regime in history, (i.e. The USSR, Maoist China,
Pol Pots Genocide, North Korea, those states which are led
by atheists, with the entire ruling Central Committee atheist,
implementing explicit atheist policies) has been a totalitarian
tyranny.
They committed the systematic persecution of religion, forcible
indoctrination of children and adults with atheism, expropriation
and destruction of religious property, and the terror, torture
and murder of believers. >70,000,000 died in the atheist holocausts.

Atheists argue that 'No True Atheist would create tyranny' despite the
clear evidence of atheists Lenin, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Kim Ill Suk and
his psychotic offspring Kim ill Fuk doing PRECISELY THAT!

In fact they can find NO EXAMPLE of an atheist state, in all of human
history, which was NOT a totalitarian tyranny!

Sometimes the argument is accompanied by hypocritical attempts at
diversion such as "Those regimes were all 'male'", an easily falsifiable
lie, (Madame Mao and other female members of the Central Committees) or
but they were 'Communist in name' .. sure.. just like the "Democratic
People's Republic of Korea" is a Democracy in name?!???

Priceless! The argument has been conclusively resolved by those
atheist tyrants themselves, e.g.:

"Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism."
-Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

"Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism."
- Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)

By arbitrarily selecting ANY OTHER ATTRIBUTE, (gender, moustaches,
brand name chosen), the claim that 'no true atheist' regime would
be a tyranny is thus preserved from refutation. Given such an approach,
this claim is unfalsifiable, there is no possible refutation of it.

The logical flaw is that not all atheist regimes were 100% male, or had
moustaches and the Chinese Communists now allow religion, have declared
it a social positive, and have prospered and progressed, unlike EVERY
atheist communist state which has been a catastrophic failure!!!

Lets clarify that point for the dull witted atheists: Not all COMMUNIST
governments have been catastrophic failures, (China reformed its
constitution, permitting religions to function, and has progressed
phenomenally) ..but all ATHEIST ones have been!!! B^]

The common feature is that those tyrannies were ALL ATHEIST REGIMES, and
in fact were the ONLY atheist regimes in history. 100% of atheist
regimes, without exception, have been murderous tyrannies!

Q.E.D. They *are* the historical REALITY of atheism.

Zombrex

ISAW wrote: »

Atheism was a central pillar of Stalinism.

Nonsense. Atheism was seen merely as a response to what Communists saw as manipulation of the Churches of the people against themselves and the State.

Stalin himself in 1919 released a whole load of priests that Lenin had locked up under the argument that they weren't harming the authority of the Soviet Union. The objection to religion came when it was viewed as a threat to the control of the State.

Like so many Communist countries, totalitarianism is the central pillar of Stalinism. Total control. They destroyed anything that risked that control, for no more ideological motives than to remain in total control.

ISAW

Wicknight wrote: »

So you have gone from millions deaths in the country as a result of the "promotion of atheism" to 60,000?

And you are complaining about our statistics?

Nope I am only showing some specific examples. I didn't claim that ALL people killed by stalin Pol pot Mao etc were believers no more than I claimed they were all not communists. Indeed some of them were both communist and atheist. What I claimed was that the REGIME supported state atheism as a central plank! they certainly killed people because of religious belief and I was giving just one example of that to counter that they didn't round people up just because of religious belief.

Zombrex

ISAW wrote: »

Fasgnadh again:
Message-ID: <oLFNm.56309$ze1.18947@news-server.bigpond.net.au>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 23:37:56 GMT

‘No True Scotsman’ Fallacy

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/no-true-scotsman/

So basically every atheist totalitarian regime in history has been totalitarian.

Brilliant ISAW, bravo :rolleyes:

monosharp

ISAW wrote: »

And yet another link originally supplied by - ME!

Is that a problem ? Are your links unreliable ? :pac:

You then go on to quote something which begins "although heavily disputed"
And you didnt go asnd look at the original publication! Yu just plucked the number from wikipedia! Not alone that but it is a "highest estimate " of 112 Million when the "lowest estimate" is TWO million!

So your suggesting that the population of the entire American continent was less then 2 million before Europeans came ?

you are basically arguing that "AIDS is a punishment from God". It is patent nonsense!

Of course it's nonsense just like the nonsense that Atheism is responsible for Communist death tolls.

I have freely admitted I don't believe what I am arguing. Its rubbish, the same as your rubbish. But since you think these criteria your using are accurate then I will apply them to Christianity just as you apply them to Atheism.

You just can argue that Christianity is responsible for intentionally spreading disease like Stalin is responsible for killing of religious believers!

Why not ? You were arguing for famines a couple of posts ago.

You also have not answered my question, how many people did Stalin kill because of atheism ? Not because of politics/crime/homosexuality/race etc.

I like! I like!

http://iearn.org/hgp/aeti/aeti-1997/native-americans.html
http://hnn.us/articles/7302.html
http://www.unitednativeamerica.com/aiholocaust.html
http://academic.udayton.edu/race/06hrights/georegions/NorthAmerica/UnitedStates02.htm
http://www.nemasys.com/ghostwolf/Native/genocide.shtml

On September 8, 2000, the head of the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) formally apologized for the agency's participation in the "ethnic cleansing" of Western tribes.

http://freetruth.50webs.org/A4a.htm

A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly by violence, bad treatment and slavery.

Enough ?

You are in denial. You have been given examples from stalin Mao and Pol Pot where they persecuted religious believers specifically to promote State atheism.

No you have given me examples where Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot persecuted religious believers because of politics.

You might want to support your claim that Christianity as a philosophy is responsible for planning the deaths of over 100 million Native Americans just as .....

Good thing I don't believe christian is responsible because using such criteria is nonsensical. Stalin did what he did because of politics, not religion or lack of religion.

You are in denial and I do not refer to the river comrade.
http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/soviet.exhibit/anti_rel.html
The Soviet Union was the first state to have as an ideological objective the elimination of religion.

Because of politics. For a political objective.

You wont supply any sources. I supply then and quote from commentary on them. You don't supply any evidence of your own and when confronted with the evidence which is in the public domain for years you try to avoid it by turning a reference into a "cut and paste"

I'm not going to answer the rantings of someone you are quoting off usenet especially so badly formatted. Make his arguments your own if you love him so much but at least write it out yourself.

They are NOT! I've supplied the lists done by academic researchers and hands up christian regimes have killed people. Millions maybe. But when i say "millions" it is about one or two millions over 500 years. Atheistic regimes ( evidence supplied = atheism and removal of religion central to their dogma) killed over a hundred million in half a century. Ten time less period a hundred times more victims = a thousand times the deaths per year.

You are taking any and all deaths caused by the USSR/China etc and putting them down to atheism.

I am doing the same for christianity. Christian countries that destroyed millions of lives, Christianity was central to their dogma.

It is the exact same thing.

It is quantifiable!

Yes it is. Christianity over 300 million.

Yes Im aware of that and some protestant hierarchy supported him. That does not mean Christianity supported Hitler! The Pope in fact opposed him and Catholics didn't vote for him so I think you can drop that line of argument!

Your the one that brought it up. You said Catholics didn't support him without pointing out that christians did.

LOL "Alleged"? By the way I thing it was I=ME who first posted that link. I don't think you posted it a dozen times. Care to list where you did? And care to show how it supports your argument?

So if you use a source then other posters cannot ? :pac:

European colonization of the Americas - 112,000,000 killed by European Christians.

Zombrex

ISAW wrote: »

I didn't claim that ALL people killed by stalin Pol pot Mao etc were believers no more than I claimed they were all not communists. Indeed some of them were both communist and atheist. What I claimed was that the REGIME supported state atheism as a central plank!

You claimed they were killed in the promotion of atheism.

If you are back tracking to say they were killed in the promotion of totalitarian State control, a State that was atheist in religion outlook, I've no issue with idea but but it is a rather different thing all together

ISAW

Wicknight wrote: »

Like so many Communist countries, totalitarianism is the central pillar of Stalinism. Total control. They destroyed anything that risked that control, for no more ideological motives than to remain in total control.

How is it only the atheistic communist countries were a mess and others which tolerated religion wern't as bad?
http://www.suitecuba.com/english/religion.php
In July 1992 the Constitution was amended in order to guarantee freedom of religion in Cuba. In December 1997, as an act of goodwill to the visit of the Pope John Paul II, the Cuban government granted, for the first time in more than 30 years, the Christmas day as a public holiday. In February 1998 the historic visit of Joan Paul II represented a moment of rapprochement between the Catholic church and the Cuban government. Despite the differences government-church and without counting with accurate statistics, the last 15 years have seen a revival of the Christian religion in Cuba not only Catholic but Protestants also.

Teh cuban economy was artifically supported by Russian sugar imports but collapsed after when the Berlin Wall fell. Ironically since they removed religious restrictions in 1992 it has been growing!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rent-Cuba-Carib.png

ISAW

Wicknight wrote: »

You claimed they were killed in the promotion of atheism.

I did NOT claim all people killed by atheistic regimes were killed because they were believers!

I did claim regimes who killed over a hunderd million promoted state atheism and certainly killed people in persuit of this goal. REgimes promoting religious belief did similar but killed fewer. I dont claim all the religious ones killed people just to spread religion either! But any religious regiume which was led with spreading say Christianity central to their regime qualifies as a "spreader of Christianity"

If you are back tracking to say they were killed in the promotion of totalitarian State control, a State that was atheist in religion outlook, I've no issue with idea but but it is a rather different thing all together

Right from the get go I mentioned my opposition to fundamentalist religious or atheistic! But the point is that even religious regimes gave society something. atheistic regimes however all collapsed and gave the world only death.

monosharp

ISAW wrote: »

1. That list of death tolls was provided first by ME as far as I am aware. Please show you provided it before i did and i will admit i am wrong about that.

I'm a bit confused, why would I have to show that I posted it/used it before you ? If you use a source first am I denied using it ?

You are the one saying it is only a Google away and yet you don't seem to have supplied any original sources? Why not? And why when you clearly DID know the above source did you not supply it? Why did you leave it to me to supply it? Is it perhaps because of all the OTHER non Christian genocides listed in that source which dwarf the so called "Christian" ones?

No they don't. The Christian ones far outnumber anyone else.

Why don't you stop saying that and provide some evidence for it ? show us the calculations.

If Christianity as a policy led directly to deaths as atheists persecuting believers did!

Stalin persecuted everyone who didn't do what he wanted/said.

1. Not MY stats! The stats are researched by an academic who specialises in that fiels.
2. See aboive regarding "stalin did it for political reasons" sidestep.

His stats blame communists. Your the one saying it was atheism to blame.

Stalin didnt promote religion. he surpressed it! But religion survided non the less. So in certain areas like the Ukraine he had an official religion while he was figiting the Nazis in order to get their adherents to attack the Germans. But he still went on surpressing all the other religions and having atheism as a policy. And after the Germans were beaten his actual policy re emerged on the orthodox Church as well.

So in other words, during WW2 Stalin did promote religion.

While they "trust in God" the US government are not led by a religion. The constitution separates religion and government. It is a secular state. The famines were not caused to spread Christianity!

The USSR officially allowed some religious freedom. They separated church and state. The people were not killed to spread atheism.

Part of it. Certainly persecuting any religious belief was part of his plan.

Persecuting anything which got in the way of his politics was his plan.

LOL none of the above reference is anywhere near 100 million!

Americas genocide - 112,000,000

I do not deny natives were mistreated but not exclusively by Christians and the hardships bad and all as they were were tame compared to Stalin or Mao.

Oh ? The genocide committed against 90%+ of the population of an entire con tinent, the stealing of their lands, destruction of their religions and language. They were tame compared to Stalin ?

ISAW

monosharp wrote: »

Is that a problem ? Are your links unreliable ? :pac:

No. im only pointing out you claim to have supplied references and they are "!oly a google away" but you haven't supplied them! Your claim is in error!

So your suggesting that the population of the entire American continent was less then 2 million before Europeans came ?

Im suggesting that your claim of genocide of over 100 million american natives by christianity is in error!

Of course it's nonsense just like the nonsense that Atheism is responsible for Communist death tolls.

I didn't claim ALL communists were atheistic. I am referring to ALL atheistic regimes in history many of whom also happened to be communist.

You also have not answered my question, how many people did Stalin kill because of atheism ? Not because of politics/crime/homosexuality/race etc.

I have an example from Pol Pot.
Stalin rounded up religious believers too!
As did Mao!

I didnt claim ALL the people killed by Stalin were believers no more than all the people killed by christian regimes were non believers!


http://iearn.org/hgp/aeti/aeti-1997/native-americans.html
http://hnn.us/articles/7302.html
http://www.unitednativeamerica.com/aiholocaust.html
http://academic.udayton.edu/race/06hrights/georegions/NorthAmerica/UnitedStates02.htm
http://www.nemasys.com/ghostwolf/Native/genocide.shtml
http://freetruth.50webs.org/A4a.htm

Where do any of the above attest to the claim that christianity is responsible fro the death of over 100 million native Americans?

Enough ?

You just cut out a load of web hits . Where do any of the above attest to the claim that Christianity is responsible fro the death of over 100 million native Americans?

No you have given me examples where Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot persecuted religious believers because of politics.

If a christian regime burned witches at the stake it does not matter if the person ordering the execution was secretly a lover of the "witch" or jealous of er and wanted her shut up. the point is the religiosity of the regime allowed for her to be burned! Juat as some Islamic regimed stone women today! If a atheistic regime persecutes believers it matters not whether they secretly belive in god Satan or whatever the point it the atieistic regime allows for and facilitates such persecutions.

Stalin did what he did because of politics, not religion or lack of religion.

Only true scotsman see above.

I'm not going to answer the rantings of someone you are quoting off usenet especially so badly formatted. Make his arguments your own if you love him so much but at least write it out yourself.

Evasion noted!

You are taking any and all deaths caused by the USSR/China etc and putting them down to atheism.

See above. I take all deaths caused by "Religious regimes" even if they killed believers. i don't just single out attacks on non believers but if you want to do that we are down to about 1 million over 2000 years and limited to the Crusades and Inquisition.

I am doing the same for christianity. Christian countries that destroyed millions of lives, Christianity was central to their dogma.

List them all of them! And we can compare it to atheistic regimes.

So if you use a source then other posters cannot ? :pac:

They can not claim they supplied it themselves! And they can't claim "there are sources all over the place" and only supply the ones I already gave them and expect people to think they are credible!

European colonization of the Americas - 112,000,000 killed by European Christians.

REad your source! 95 per cent killed by disease! LOL next you will claim AIDS was sent by God I suppose?