Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest
Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler*, Mao....
Comments
-
I don't know why I have to keep reminding you of this but I never said it was christian militia. I have stated numerous times I do not believe these deaths are the fault of christianity, except when using your criteria (which are wrong) which you have applied so freely to communist states trying to link the deaths caused to atheism.
Atheistic states with Atheism at the heart of their message and christian states with christianity at the centre of their policy!
There were non atheistic Communist states. It was when they stopped persecuting religion and trying to force atheism on others that they improved! Every regime that pushed state atheism failed. But this seems to indicate nothing at all to you.How many of Stalins total were wiped out by disease or famine through indirect action by stalins policies ? How many died because of collectivism ?
I didnt say Communist Russia killed only religious believers or killed only to advance atheism. I said it was a core principle. Thats what an "atheistic State" is! By definition!You apply all these deaths to atheism which is why I am applying all of these to Christianity.
No i don't! I didn't claim that Stalin only killed to spread atheism. I claimed it was a core principle. And regime with the church at the core of it were christian Regimes for example the Byzantine Empire or the last 100 years of the roman empire or the
Papal States.Would you like some quotes about how christianity was 'natural' and 'inseperable' from the Spanish conquistadors ?
Yes indeed I would. And the Democide state ( in spite of him havng the source of 110 million
On lines 150-158 list between 2 and five million killed by conquistadors.
The 95 per cent "disease" figure appears on line 149!
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.TAB2.1A.GIF
So
1. the estimates you are throwing out are out by a factor of 100!
2. The deaths even then are NOT al attributable to the church are any Church centred regimes.Or Napoleons soldiers ? Or the Americans when they committed genocide against the native Americans ?
All sourced in Rummel above, ANd nowhere near the numbers of atheistic regimes and few or NONE for the aim of spreading belief by the sword.Oh no!! Stalin was an atheist :eek: All atheists must be responsible for Stalins actions, obviously atheism is responsible for what Stalin did!
His regime had the spread of atheism and persecution of religion as a central policy!Isn't it great how no Christian ever did anything wrong ? :pac:
Christians did plenty wrong. But christian regimes were responsible for the death of millions i.e one two or three millions!over millenia. Atheistic regimes such as Stalin alone or Mao's killed this many before they had breakfast!And these people were killed because of atheism yes ?
Killed by atheistic regimes yes.Christianity has been central to many different systems which I have been listing to you. Is christianity responsible for the deaths caused by these systems ?
Yes - any christian regimje controlled by senior christian figures or by people claiming to be doing what they do for the Pope or Patriarch or because the Bible is telling them to do it.I never said the church called for aboriginals to be killed. Why do you continue to make these assertions ? You know I didn't say that. You know I didn't say it about the Europeans in the America's either.
Then if The Church didnt call for it they are not responsible.They were considered wildlife, I'm sure of it but can't find a link.
I might even be true but you haven shown it to be.Of course they were just like every single facet of life in china because of political reasons. It had nothing to do with atheism or religion except for the fact religion, especially foreign religions and even moreso a religion which has a 'head' which you are supposed to be loyal to, are not good politics in a totalitarian state.
SAme for religious regimes but I dont exclude them if they have religion at the core of policy and acted for political reasons just like I dont exclude atheistic ones.0 -
Atheistic states with Atheism at the heart of their message and christian states with christianity at the centre of their policy!
Yes and you infer that atheist states with atheism at the heart of their message means atheism is accountable for that states actions.
I am doing the same with christian states.
Its nonsense, but its your nonsense.There were non atheistic Communist states. It was when they stopped persecuting religion and trying to force atheism on others that they improved! Every regime that pushed state atheism failed. But this seems to indicate nothing at all to you.
Oh its when they stopped persecuting religion specifically that they improved ? The only problem with them was their persecution of religion ? Want to stand by that ?I didnt say Communist Russia killed only religious believers or killed only to advance atheism. I said it was a core principle. Thats what an "atheistic State" is! By definition!
So why are you laying these deaths at atheism's doorstep then ?Yes indeed I would.
How about divine right of kings then.And the Democide state ( in spite of him havng the source of 110 million
On lines 150-158 list between 2 and five million killed by conquistadors.
The 95 per cent "disease" figure appears on line 149!
Your claiming stalins total for atheism regardless of who or how or why. I'm simply doing the same.So
1. the estimates you are throwing out are out by a factor of 100!
Thats nice. I know it. I said it before I even stated the numbers.
Your numbers however are completely wrong. No one has ever been killed because of atheism. People have died because of anti-theism.2. The deaths even then are NOT al attributable to the church are any Church centred regimes.
Never said they were. I said they were attributable to christian countries.His regime had the spread of atheism and persecution of religion as a central policy!
For political reasons. He also persecuted any kind of political adversary for political reasons. Everything he did was because of, political reasons.Christians did plenty wrong. But christian regimes were responsible for the death of millions i.e one two or three millions!over millenia. Atheistic regimes such as Stalin alone or Mao's killed this many before they had breakfast!
Genocide in the America's, christian Europeans practically destroyed the population of an entire continent.Killed by atheistic regimes yes.
And the native americans were killed by christian countries, directly and indirectly.Yes - any christian regimje controlled by senior christian figures or by people claiming to be doing what they do for the Pope or Patriarch or because the Bible is telling them to do it.
Like Spain in the America's causing a genocide of a continent.Then if The Church didnt call for it they are not responsible.
So christians are only responsible for what the church officially calls for ? Thats nice.
Why are atheists responsible for what Stalin did ?SAme for religious regimes but I dont exclude them if they have religion at the core of policy and acted for political reasons just like I dont exclude atheistic ones.
Like the Europeans in the America's that wiped out an entire continent. Yes.0 -
I can't see what you are trying to establish.So the Orthodox church follow the Pope as the head of the church?
The Bishop Of Dublin does not take instructions from the Bishop of Westminster. There are examples in the church
There is precenent in Cosstantinople that rome was a particulae see which held a particular responsibilkity just as Antioch and Alexandria did. The Pentarchy consisted of the five ancient patriarchates of the undivided Church of the first millennium of her history, including the Churches of Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem. so Orthodoxy would recognise these five as important rather than just one.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Autocephaly
But that is really off topic.They are atheist regimes. I asked for non-atheist Communist regimes.
I gave you several examples before Russia, China, and Monastic life.
You cant Claim a country isn't atheistic and then claim it IS atheistic when it suits you!No, what they relaxed was the pursuit of State anti-theism. State atheism is easy, the State simply proclaims there is no god. There is nothing to pursue. They are still atheist States in that the State officially declares itself atheist (ie no accepting the claims of theists as true or even possibly true).
Is it you claiming that North Korea ( a communist country) has a state religion?
According to him North Korea is religious and communist! Take it up with him why don't you?I assume you would agree that a Christian State, such as the Irish state up until the 1970s, is not the same as a state that uses its powers to make everyone be Christian.
Yes which is why I stated "atheistic" and not just "atheist"So why do you seem incapable of understanding this difference with regard to atheism and anti-theism.
And "Atheistic regime" is anti theist.What would you like it to mean to me? I've never supported State anti-theism.
What you did or did not support is beside the point. godless atheistic regimes were failures and killed hundreds of millions.
Donre before:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65551438&postcount=63
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65553592&postcount=680 -
Oh its when they stopped persecuting religion specifically that they improved ?
Yes.
not the only problemThe only problem with them was their persecution of religion ?Want to stand by that ?
Yes when they abandoned enforcing State atheism they improved.So why are you laying these deaths at atheism's doorstep then ?
godless Atheistic regimes killed hundreds of millions. Atheism was a core policy.
Theistic regimes with Christianity at theior core DINT kill hundreds of million or tens of millions!Your claiming stalins total for atheism regardless of who or how or why. I'm simply doing the same.
Because Stalins regime was atheistic. Christian rulers dint always go to war with spreading Christianity as a core policy! somethimes they were attacking other Christians. If russia had a war with china I could not claim it was to spread atheism since the other side is already atheistic.For political reasons. He also persecuted any kind of political adversary for political reasons. Everything he did was because of, political reasons.
so what? Popes did things for political reasons too. Bgut when papal regimes caused deaths for whatever reason you can blame the theistic regime. Ditto for atheistic regimes .Genocide in the America's, christian Europeans practically destroyed the population of an entire continent.
No they didnt! 95 per cent were killed by disease! Of the remaining five per cent not all were killed for religions purpose. Although some no doubt were.And the native americans were killed by christian countries, directly and indirectly.
No they werent! No they didnt! 95 per cent were killed by disease! Of the remaining five per cent not all were killed for religious purposeLike Spain in the America's causing a genocide of a continent.
They didn't plan any genocide of a whole continent! 95 per cent died from disease.So christians are only responsible for what the church officially calls for ?
Yes christian regimes are only responsive for deaths caused for in the name of Christianity and atheist regimes only responsible for deaths when they are atheistic. If Russia brought a disease into another country or if Russia stopped forcing state atheism and stopped persecuting and suppressing religion then Atheistic regimes do not have to take responsibility ofor that total.Why are atheists responsible for what Stalin did ?
They arent and christians arent responsible for what Crusaders did. Neverthelsee Christian regimes directly caused deaths and atheistic regimes caused a hunderd times more then the christian ones for two millennia in the 20th century alone.Like the Europeans in the America's that wiped out an entire continent. Yes.
Their diseases did yes. It was not planned genocide to spread Christianity.0 -
I can't see what you are trying to establish.
The Bishop Of Dublin does not take instructions from the Bishop of Westminster. There are examples in the church
Oh come on you know perfectly well what I mean
Orthodox and Protestant Christians do not recognize the RCC in its current version as an authority.so Orthodoxy would recognise these five as important rather than just one.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Autocephaly
And the Catholics? They recognize this as well, since they are all the same church?Is it you claiming that North Korea ( a communist country) has a state religion?
According to him North Korea is religious and communist! Take it up with him why don't you?
North Korea is an atheist State. It has gone through various stages of anti-theism, but as I keep telling you anti-theism is not the same as atheism.
You seem to think an non-atheist State is one that doesn't peruse anti-theism. That is nonsense.And "Atheistic regime" is anti theist.
No it isn't. It can be, but that is not an assumed position.
Seriously, what is the point in debating this with you when you don't understand the most basic of premises?
Then why did you ask me :rolleyes:What you did or did not support is beside the point0 -
Advertisement
-
Oh come on you know perfectly well what I mean
Orthodox and Protestant Christians do not recognize the RCC in its current version as an authority.
Wrong! They recognise the Pope. And it is ONE church! The are just different denominations.
If you read the link you would reaslise the orthodox recognise the Bishop of rome as one of the original five patriarch offices.North Korea is an atheist State. It has gone through various stages of anti-theism, but as I keep telling you anti-theism is not the same as atheism.
Your comrade Monosharp says it is NOT an atheist state. so you are saying he is wrong?0 -
-
Yes.
As opposed to persecuting homosexuals or people of other politics or ... ?godless Atheistic regimes killed hundreds of millions.
God worshipping regimes have killed hundreds of millions.Atheism was a core policy.
Christianity was a core policy.Theistic regimes with Christianity at theior core DINT kill hundreds of million or tens of millions!
Yes they did. I have given you numerous examples.Because Stalins regime was atheistic. Christian rulers dint always go to war with spreading Christianity as a core policy!
Stalin did ? He went to war with the nazi's to spread the 'not-faith' ?somethimes they were attacking other Christians. If russia had a war with china I could not claim it was to spread atheism since the other side is already atheistic.
Its funny how every country which promoted atheism and were mostly atheist get to drop the blame at atheisms door yet you don't feel the same holds true for Christianity.so what? Popes did things for political reasons too. Bgut when papal regimes caused deaths for whatever reason you can blame the theistic regime. Ditto for atheistic regimes .
Like Hitler ? He certainly wasn't atheist, he was a weird mixture of christianity and the occult.No they didnt! 95 per cent were killed by disease! Of the remaining five per cent not all were killed for religions purpose. Although some no doubt were.
I know and do not argue against 95% of them been killed by disease. But the people responsible were christian, with christianity as a core integral part of their system.
Your blaming atheism for what 1 dictator did who happened to be atheist, theres no difference.0 -
-
-
Advertisement
-
-
God worshipping regimes have killed hundreds of millions.
No they haven't! Not purposefully. Not as part of their policy of spreading God worshipping and not in gulags and death camps. And not even tens of millions!Christianity was a core policy.
No state with spreading Christianity as a core policy killed 100 million people in 50 years.Stalin did ? He went to war with the nazi's to spread the 'not-faith' ?
Whele atheism was breing spread by force the Nazis attacked. Up to then he was happy to deal with the Anti Vatican Nazis. When they attacked he stopped persecuting some religious adherents so that he could get them to fight the Nazis.Its funny how every country which promoted atheism and were mostly atheist get to drop the blame at atheisms door yet you don't feel the same holds true for Christianity.
the same DOES hold for christianity! When christian countires caused death because of spreading Christianity by force or under orders of the Pope just like when atheistic regimes spread atheism by force or under orders of the central committee.
And when you compare numbers christianity is a hundred times less!Like Hitler ? He certainly wasn't atheist, he was a weird mixture of christianity and the occult.
Nazism was not Christianity so you can't include it! Nor was it atheistic it was more like theosophy so i dont include it with atheism but it was "Godless". so I would put it in with Emporor worshippers and other similar godless systems. Certainly closetto atheism than Christianity.I know and do not argue against 95% of them been killed by disease. But the people responsible were christian, with christianity as a core integral part of their system.
Actual rei and mens rea look it up. Malice of forethought! They are NOT responsible in the way atheistic regimes are.Your blaming atheism for what 1 dictator did who happened to be atheist, theres no difference.
You are going in circles! The REGIME was atheistic according to the definition given. Even if a Pope was atheist the regime he led was religious and what they did was done in the name of God!0 -
Yes and you infer that atheist states with atheism at the heart of their message means atheism is accountable for that states actions.
I am doing the same with christian states.
No! It means atheistic regimes are responsible. As a system for running the world or contribution to civilization! If a pope was atheist and ordered something and the church carried it out the Church institution is responsible, even if some or maost christians disagree . If a leader of an atheistic regime secretly believes in God it doen not mean that the regime to spread atheism is not responsbile whether or not all in it are atheists or whether or not all atheists agree with that atheistic regime.0 -
As opposed to persecuting homosexuals or people of other politics or ... ?
Yes. atheistic states didn't persecute homosexuals and iof they did it was few in numbers with respect to religious believers. When they relaxed rules on religion they continued to persecute people of other politics. But they prospered. so yes is hte answer. your gnit picking didnt work!0 -
Care to name one atheistic regime ( as defined - one with the psread of atheism as a central plank) that hasn't been anti theistic.
Pre-war Albania
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Albania
And the USA though I know you dispute this.0 -
-
Your comrade Monosharp says it is NOT an atheist state. so you are saying he is wrong?
Oh no, I can't say he is wrong since we are all part of the one atheist hive mind :rolleyes:
I'm happy to discuss and debate with Monosharp till the cows come in, including saying he is wrong if I think he is, because I know he is not simply trying to score points with distortion and misrepresentation.0 -
I'm happy to discuss and debate with Monosharp till the cows come in, including saying he is wrong if I think he is,
So you are saying he is wrong then? Or are you avoiding saying that?because I know he is not simply trying to score points with distortion and misrepresentation.
Are you suggesting I am distorting or misrepresenting anything? that is defamation.0 -
Name me one protestant religion that recognized the Pope as the head of its church
LOL! Who is "distorting" now. The point was about "mainstream christianity2 the catholic church. ONE Holy catholic and apostolic church. You tried to assert it isn't ONE church. You tried to assert the Orthodox don't recognise the bishop of Rome. When you were shown they DID recognise him you now try to involve "Protestants". It is quote clear just the Orthodox constitute about 400 millions the Romans constitute about 1100 Millions The Anglicans have about another 100 Millions. But the point is the core beliefs are the same!
Read the Charter!0 -
From the abiove source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Albania#Totalitarian_regime
The trend was taken to extreme during the totalitarian regime, when religions, identified as imports foreign to Albanian culture, were banned altogether.
"Banned religion altogether" = anti theist!And the USA though I know you dispute this.
About 15 per cent of the US are "no specific religion"
About 1.5 per cent are Atheist
http://religions.pewforum.org/reports
The US has no policy of spreading atheism!0 -
Advertisement
-
-
LOL! Who is "distorting" now. The point was about "mainstream christianity2 the catholic church. ONE Holy catholic and apostolic church. You tried to assert it isn't ONE church.
No I tried to assert that everyone has different ideas of what the correct interpretation of the "ONE church" is.
Possibly realizing that was a valid argument you dragged us down this rabbit hole of Orthodox/Protestants "recognizing" the Pope.
Not in the same way as Catholics, which is the actual point.You tried to assert the Orthodox don't recognise the bishop of Rome.But the point is the core beliefs are the same!
"Core beliefs" are entirely subjective and only rolled out when people start questioning how clear the Bible actually is.
And that is before we get into those of other religions.0 -
So you are saying he is wrong then? Or are you avoiding saying that?
I can't actually see where he said this, but if he said what you claim he said then he is wrong, and I'm happy to discuss that with him as I'm sure he is happy to discuss it with me.
Trying to get us to fight with each other to avoid answering the problems with your own assertions is some what childish ISAW.Are you suggesting I am distorting or misrepresenting anything? that is defamation.
Did I say that?0 -
No they haven't! Not purposefully. Not as part of their policy of spreading God worshipping and not in gulags and death camps. And not even tens of millions!
So show us some proof that a decent percentage of Stalins deaths were killed because of atheism.No state with spreading Christianity as a core policy killed 100 million people in 50 years.
No country, but Russias quite big so I think its only fair I get Europe as a whole. Europeans killed 100 million native americans.And when you compare numbers christianity is a hundred times less!
Over 300 million last time I counted, stats under your criteria.
Tell me something though, do you believe God drowned everyone on earth apart from Noah and his kin ?Nazism was not Christianity so you can't include it!
Your arguments rediculousness comes through. You really can't see that ?
Nazism was not christianity so you can't include it.
Atheism was not communism so you can't include it.Nor was it atheistic it was more like theosophy so i dont include it with atheism but it was "Godless". so I would put it in with Emporor worshippers and other similar godless systems. Certainly closetto atheism than Christianity.
Careful with the 'godless' remarks. A good few people here spent a few days informing me that 'godless' doesn't mean 'god-less'.
And Hitler did believe in a deity.You are going in circles! The REGIME was atheistic according to the definition given. Even if a Pope was atheist the regime he led was religious and what they did was done in the name of God!
And the Europeans who committed genocide against the native americans were christian.0 -
Thats nice. But I'm debating with you, not wicknight.
Are you afraid to answer because you know your wrong ?
I already answered. I agree with Wickednight. In my opinion and his North Korea is atheist.
LOL! apparently the actual [debate itself is secondary to with whom you debate and to who makes the points ?0 -
So show us some proof that a decent percentage of Stalins deaths were killed because of atheism.
Not necessary no more than i have to show all deaths by christian regimes were killed because of Christianity! all I have to show is that the regime had spreading Christianity by violence as a central plank or had enforcing atheism as a central plank.No country, but Russias quite big so I think its only fair I get Europe as a whole. Europeans killed 100 million native americans.
Not because of Christian regimes. Whereas Russia and China were athesitic regimes! Deasths by christian regimes in America were minimal compared to these and I have supplied the sources for that!
LOL! you are claimning Europe was ruled by a single regime like Russia was? The Pope ruled over Eorope and instructed their armies to kill 100 million americans. LOL!Tell me something though, do you believe God drowned everyone on earth apart from Noah and his kin ?
TEll me something when you are LOSING the debate do you always resort to posting off topic questions that you are used to asking of Biblical fundamentalists ?
I told you before. what I believe or don't believe isn't for discussion. The Church does not necessarily believe in a literal global flood or literal Bible interpretation.Nazism was not christianity so you can't include it.
Atheism was not communism so you can't include it.
Your logic is muddled! "cant include" refers to the OBJECT of the sentence. In the forst I cant include Naziism as Christianity or as Atheism. thise are the objects. communism isn't!
The numbers are numbers alloted to Christian regimes and to atheistic regimes. Not to chrisitian regimes and communist regimes. communist regimes do not have to be atheistic.Careful with the 'godless' remarks. A good few people here spent a few days informing me that 'godless' doesn't mean 'god-less'.
Godless regimes includes atheistic ones but I would include emporor worshipping ones like North Korea as well.And Hitler did believe in a deity.
Not a Chrsitan regime QED.And the Europeans who committed genocide against the native americans were christian.
Didnt do it ( with some exceptions - stats giv en) for christian regimes.
Just as an athesit not acting for a atheistic regime does not add to the "atheistic over 100 million murdered" total0 -
I already answered. I agree with Wickednight. In my opinion and his North Korea is atheist.
LOL! apparently the actual [debate itself is secondary to with whom you debate and to who makes the points ?
Nice.
No evidence. No sources. No argument. No response to my evidence, or my argument or the sources I provided. Just 'My opinion'. :rolleyes:0 -
Not necessary no more than i have to show all deaths by christian regimes were killed because of Christianity! all I have to show is that the regime had spreading Christianity by violence as a central plank or had enforcing atheism as a central plank.
Just like the Spanish who went to the America's.LOL! you are claimning Europe was ruled by a single regime like Russia was? The Pope ruled over Eorope and instructed their armies to kill 100 million americans. LOL!
Yes European Christians did.TEll me something when you are LOSING the debate do you always resort to posting off topic questions that you are used to asking of Biblical fundamentalists ?
I'm not losing the debate, the debates been over for pages. You try to paint atheists with one brush but won't accept it been done to christianity.
Hypocrisy.0 -
Nice.
No evidence. No sources. No argument. No response to my evidence, or my argument or the sources I provided. Just 'My opinion'. :rolleyes:
Dont be silly.
stats of deaths by atheistic regimes have already been given to you.
You have had pages and pages of them!
Over a thousand lines of democide from one source rummel!
My AND Wickednights opinion is North Korea is atheistic.0 -
Advertisement
-
Let me see if I have this right.
atheism is nothing or "not anything", but an atheist is a person with no belief in a deity and subscribes to atheism.
Atheistic regimes would in general would have their armies, ministerial, political and civil service positions filled by atheist.
Hence atheists would send atheists to do their dirty work.
Given that atheistic regimes which were also totalitarian or dictatorial have killed lots of people it stands to reason that atheists are the greatest human killers in history even if it could be argued they did it for reasons other than atheism. Notwithstanding the fact that without atheism and atheistic ideology they may not have achieved power.0 -
I'm not losing the debate, the debates been over for pages.
LOL and you lost! You havent even supplied sources. You claimed to have but you didnt want to because I suspect they would have shown even mnore deaths by atheistic regimes so you withheld them at the time. But i posted the sources and it is clear . You can get secveral million for Christian regimes over twenty centuries. You can get hundreds of million from atheistic regimes over two centuries!You try to paint atheists with one brush but won't accept it been done to christianity.
Hypocrisy.
EXACT same criteria! Christians spreading Chrsitianity to non Christians and using violence. Atheistic regimes spreading atheism to non atheists and using violence.
REsult Christians several million dead in 2000 years
Atheists several hundred million dead in a century or two! A thousand times worse!0 -
StealthRolex wrote: »Let me see if I have this right.
atheism is nothing or "not anything", but an atheist is a person with no belief in a deity and subscribes to atheism.
What?
Atheism is a rejection of the claims of theists (atheist literally means "reject god")
An atheist is a person who rejects the claims of theists.
You I imagine are not a Communists. You could therefore be considered to be an a-Communist. You are not a Muslim. You could therefore be consider to be an a-Muslim.
It is pretty simple, I'm not quite sure what the confusion is, other than a desire some have to equate atheism with anti-theism.0 -
What?
It is pretty simple, I'm not quite sure what the confusion is, other than a desire some have to equate atheism with anti-theism.
Yup.
Whenever atheistic regimes which had atheism as a central plank they were anti-theist.
Christianity isn't opposed to all who are not christian either but christian regimes which enforced Christianity such as the crusades or Spanish Inquisition WERE. Now suppose you list all the atheist States that caused no deaths at all or that caused deaths but didn't have spreading atheism as a core principle and suppression of religion as their modus operandi and we will remove them from the figures. how about that? how many millions should we remove from the 100 million plus total in 50 years. Oh that's NONE is it?
I see.0 -
Yup.
Whenever atheistic regimes which had atheism as a central plank they were anti-theist.
I already gave you an example of one that wasn't but at this point we seem rather detached from any remnant of reality.
But lets for sake of argument say that every atheist regime that existed was anti-theist in nature.
What do you think that demonstrates about atheism?
By your own logic you are talking about totalitarian anti-theist states. It is a logical fallacy then to conclude something about atheist from this when atheism is not the only common denominator.
By your own logic you cannot tell if what you are giving out about is a result of atheism or a result of anti-theism. To do so you would need an example of an atheist state that was not anti-theist and see if it still resulted in persecution of theists.
So BY YOUR OWN LOGIC your argument fails.
And the example I gave, pre-war Albania shows atheists states do not always equal anti-theist ones
For someone who likes to give out about logical fallacy you don't half partake in them :rolleyes:0 -
LOL and you lost!
Hyena much ? :PYou havent even supplied sources. You claimed to have but you didnt want to because I suspect they would have shown even mnore deaths by atheistic regimes so you withheld them at the time. But i posted the sources and it is clear . You can get secveral million for Christian regimes over twenty centuries. You can get hundreds of million from atheistic regimes over two centuries!
I got well over 100 million for Christians from christian regimes causing genocide in the America's.EXACT same criteria! Christians spreading Chrsitianity to non Christians and using violence. Atheistic regimes spreading atheism to non atheists and using violence.
Yep and you still haven't given me a figure for how many of those were killed directly because of atheism, for the promotion of atheism or because of their religion.
You've just thrown the tallest figures you can find, everything from communist gulags to Mao's famines.
Which if why I replied in kind with the American genocide among many.REsult Christians several million dead in 2000 years
Over 100 million just for the native americans.0 -
Advertisement
-
I already gave you an example of one that wasn't but at this point we seem rather detached from any remnant of reality.
And I already showed you that in that one example the regime SUPPRESSED religion!
so your example isn't valid!But lets for sake of argument say that every atheist regime that existed was anti-theist in nature.
You haven't shown me even ONE that wasn't!What do you think that demonstrates about atheism?
I was not making any point about Christianity or atheism but about christian regimes and atheistic ones. i dont claim christianity or atheism says "kill people" just that some regimes wishing to spread Christianity or atheism do. When we count up the bodies atheistic ones are a thousand times worse.By your own logic you are talking about totalitarian anti-theist states.
no! not just them. totalist religious or christian ones as well.It is a logical fallacy then to conclude something about atheist from this when atheism is not the only common denominator.
As it is about Christianity. So what? im not saying that atheism por christianity is like this only that regimes promoting Christianity or atheism are. You know? The type of regimes some atheists hate ? Ones that promote christianity at the point of a sword? The Crusades , Inquisitions , pogroms, that sort of thing!By your own logic you cannot tell if what you are giving out about is a result of atheism or a result of anti-theism.
ALL atheistic regimes were anti-theist!To do so you would need an example of an atheist state that was not anti-theist and see if it still resulted in persecution of theists.
nonsense.
all communist regimes are anti capitalist
Assume all communist regimes had leaders with beards
You think i should have to find a communist regime and get all the leaders to shave of their beards to prove they are still anti capitalist and beards had nothing to do with it?
By the way while it might be possible to get communists to shave it iosnt in my knowledge possible to get atheistic regimes to become accepting oof religion sionce ALL atheistic regimes are anti religion.
It is about as likely as getting the Pope to promote atheism.
WRONG!And the example I gave, pre-war Albania shows atheists states do not always equal anti-theist ones
your sources were :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism#Communist_Albania
The Socialist People's Republic of Albania under Enver Hoxha went so far as to officially ban the practice of every religion.[7]
= ANTI THEISM
Your other source was:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Albania#Totalitarian_regime
The trend was taken to extreme during the totalitarian regime, when religions, identified as imports foreign to Albanian culture, were banned altogether. This policy was mainly applied and felt within the borders of the present Albanian state, thus producing a nonreligious majority in the population.
PRE WAR? : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Albania#Monarchy
In 1929 the Albanian Orthodox Church was declared autocephalous.[12]
A year later, in 1930, the first official religious census was carried out. Reiterating conventional Ottoman data from a century earlier which previously covered double the new state's territory and population, 50% of the population was grouped as Sunni Muslim, 20% as Orthodox Christian, 20% as Bektashi Muslim and 10% as Catholic ChristianAnd i supplied you with a quote
For someone who likes to give out about logical fallacy you don't half partake in them :rolleyes:
And you don't half make them up!0 -
I can't actually see where he said this, but if he said what you claim he said then he is wrong,
He did and you are saying he is wrong.Trying to get us to fight with each other to avoid answering the problems with your own assertions is some what childish ISAW.
[/quoter]
i wont be double teamed by you claiming contradictory positions. If i happen to agree with one i will say so! i can agree with or argue against both.
He constantly says North Korea is a religious country.Did I say that?
Yo alluded to it. Just to get you straight you are saying that you disavow yourself from any such comments about me?
Who were you referring to then?
Just "people" ? LOL.0 -
I got well over 100 million for Christians from christian regimes causing genocide in the America's.
No you DIDN'T! You got a makey up figure. i found you the source and challenged you to show where the "Christian " element was attached. You provided no source of your own.Yep and you still haven't given me a figure for how many of those were killed directly because of atheism, for the promotion of atheism or because of their religion.
I HAVE! you are lying now! I defined "atheistic regimes" I quoted Lenin and the policy of attack on religion by Sovietism and Maoism. I then sourced the actual death toll!You've just thrown the tallest figures you can find, everything from communist gulags to Mao's famines.
The tallest figures ARE those of atheist regimes! I dint throw them in . I sourced them!
the atheistic regimes of Stalin and Mao instituted the gulags and famine as a weapon. But if you look you will see rummel originally didn't even include the famine of Mao in his early stats!Which if why I replied in kind with the American genocide among many.
the death of american natives was not a planned destruction like the guilags or cultural revoluion and it was not ordered by the Pope or some Bishop like the regime of Stalin Pol pot or Mao ordered deaths and mass extermination.Over 100 million just for the native americans.
95 per cent due to disease! If germ warfare was used by the Pope ill allow these 100 million but it WAS NOT!0 -
Id like to like to come into the ring swinging punches for athiesm here, after discussing similar things in another thread.
Im mighty peed off that someone can spout out stuff like "Atheism kills people, cos theyre not afraid of the bearded guy in the clouds" . Thats held back so many faithful over the years hasnt it. And what really ticks me off is religious people thinking that only they can be civilised and "decent".0 -
From the abiove source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Albania#Totalitarian_regime
The trend was taken to extreme during the totalitarian regime, when religions, identified as imports foreign to Albanian culture, were banned altogether.
"Banned religion altogether" = anti theist!
You will notice I said pre-war Albania.About 15 per cent of the US are "no specific religion"
About 1.5 per cent are Atheist
http://religions.pewforum.org/reports
The US has no policy of spreading atheism!
So? Since when does an atheist state have to have a policy of spreading atheism? That is anti-theism and you asked for states that were not anti-theist.
You now want states that are not anti-theists but pursue an anti-theist agenda?
Man alive what is your issue with understanding this?
Also you already said the religion of the general population isn't a factor. If it was then there is no atheist states as the majority of Russian and Chinese are theists.0 -
Advertisement
-
Nick Dolan wrote: »Id like to like to come into the ring swinging punches for athiesm here, after discussing similar things in another thread.
Im mighty peed off that someone can spout out stuff like "Atheism kills people, cos theyre not afraid of the bearded guy in the clouds" . Thats held back so many faithful over the years hasnt it. And what really ticks me off is religious people thinking that only they can be civilised and "decent".
Good for you Nick!
As it happens though noone made the claim you stated.
And as it happens "atheistic regimes" ( read the earlier definition) DID kill hundreds of millions of people.0 -
You will notice I said pre-war Albania.
You will also notice i posted the census on pre-war Albania which listed all the religious denominations in the country which didn't include atheism as more then one per cent?So? Since when does an atheist state have to have a policy of spreading atheism?
It doesn't. An atheistic one does however.That is anti-theism and you asked for states that were not anti-theist.
Yep care to name this list of atheist states that were not anti theist?
AS yo can see by the pre war census Albania DOES NOT COUNT!
Nope!You now want states that are not anti-theists but pursue an anti-theist agenda?
I want you to list states which YOU SUGGESTED were atheist and did not pursue and anti theist agenda.0 -
enough of this commies = atheists = NASTY PEOPLE!There have been plenty of episodes of concentrated brutality that don't show up on the list above simply because the affected population is so small. Meanwhile, a major reason that Russia and China stand so prominently at the top of the list is that they have so many potential victims to begin withWe've got Christians, Moslems, Buddhists and Atheists all butchering one another in the name of their various gods or lack thereof
check out this page here
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm
Theres lies, damn lies, and high - pitched screamed statistics0 -
I already answered. I agree with Wickednight. In my opinion and his North Korea is atheist.
LOL! apparently the actual [debate itself is secondary to with whom you debate and to who makes the points ?
Then you misunderstand the issues.
I might disagree with wicknight regarding North Korea's religious attitudes or lack thereof, but wicknight is not trying to shove a ridiculous idea like 'all atheist regimes' have been evil, or that atheist regimes have done more damage to the world then religious ones.
so I would happily debate wicknight on this point but this is not the issue here.
The issue is your claiming North Korea is atheist and this furthers your claim that atheist regimes are 'bad'. I'm showing you North Korea is not atheist and cannot be used to further your argument.0 -
Dont be silly.
stats of deaths by atheistic regimes have already been given to you.
And stacks of deaths by christian regimes have been given to you. The genocide of the native americans for one.You have had pages and pages of them!
Same to you.Over a thousand lines of democide from one source rummel!
Which is great until you interpret it to suit your own purposes.
Your argument is as follows;
Stalin/Mao were atheists, Stalin/Mao led atheist regimes, Stalin/Mao killed lots of people, ergo Atheism was responsible for killing lots of people.
Is it not ?My AND Wickednights opinion is North Korea is atheistic.
Thats nice. You haven't given any evidence towards that opinion, nor have you tried to correct any of my evidence nor have you told me why any of my sources are wrong.0 -
No you DIDN'T! You got a makey up figure. i found you the source and challenged you to show where the "Christian " element was attached. You provided no source of your own.
You didn't challenge me to show you the christian element, you challenged me to show you where they were killed for the spread of christianity etc. I said they weren't and I never claimed they were.
The christian element is the fact that the vast majority of the Europeans who invaded the America's and committed genocide were Christian, from Christian regimes, under the command of a Christian king of government.I HAVE! you are lying now! I defined "atheistic regimes" I quoted Lenin and the policy of attack on religion by Sovietism and Maoism. I then sourced the actual death toll!
So the actual death total is the people killed by sovietism/Maoism because of atheism ?the death of american natives was not a planned destruction like the guilags or cultural revoluion and it was not ordered by the Pope or some Bishop like the regime of Stalin Pol pot or Mao ordered deaths and mass extermination.
And yet you claim that everything from famines, to deaths from war against Nazism, are because of Atheism. :rolleyes:95 per cent due to disease! If germ warfare was used by the Pope ill allow these 100 million but it WAS NOT!
I know they were killed by disease. I never said anything other then they were killed by disease.
But they were killed indirectly because of Christian regimes. The same way a lot of your numbers were killed by famine or other reasons and you are adding them up to atheists total.0 -
And stacks of deaths by christian regimes have been given to you. The genocide of the native americans for one.
You did NOT! i sourced the numbers for that. yu plucked out some wiki numbers and I went into it. I showed
- that 95 percent of the deaths were by disease not specifically brought to kill natives.
- that the original sources for Spaniards in the new world have nowhere near the size of an army capable of killing 100 Million people!
- that the numbers are estimates and they are not related to Christianity or genocide (except for some thousands of deaths certainly not millions or a hundred million)
I challenged you to show where the original primary sources mentioned deaths caused by Christianity! You didn't rise to the challenge!
You have NOT given any sources! All you gave was an opinion!
Go on then! Care to how the sources that support the deliberate genocide of 100 million native Americans because of Christian regimes which had spreading Christianity at their core?Your argument is as follows;
Stalin/Mao were atheists, Stalin/Mao led atheist regimes, Stalin/Mao killed lots of people, ergo Atheism was responsible for killing lots of people.
Is it not ?
They might not have killed them themselves personally. they or people acting in the name of their regime which had a particular policy of spreading atheism (just like people acting to spread Christianity and attack atheism or any other belief ) directly caused the deaths of people as part of this plan. It makes no difference if they themselves were atheist blievers or anything just that the system they followed had as a main value persecuted non Christians in one case or spreading atheism in the other.
Now compare one with the other .
ALL Christian regimes = killed millions in 20 centuries
Some Atheistic regimes = killed over 100 million in half a century.
That is a factor of thousands of times worse!Thats nice. You haven't given any evidence towards that opinion, nor have you tried to correct any of my evidence nor have you told me why any of my sources are wrong.
You haven't supplied any sources that i know of!
i have supplied you several sources and then gone into these sources to find the primary sources!
Go on then ! Care to show us three sources you supplied?0 -
Moved from here at mod request
Communism doesn't have to be atheistic and atheism doesn't have to be communisitic. And nor does atheism necessarily mean a murderous totalitarian dictatorship run by a megalomianic. Do you actually think that's the type of society that the people over on the A&A forum want? Why not consider a place like Sweden, a country where ~80% of people profess no faith in god and which is not a murderous hell hole?That as well but communism does not have to be atheistic.
i.e. the modern democracies heavily influenced by Religion and Christianity and not the atheistic hell holes that tried to remove and suppress those religions with Godless regimes
promoting atheism all of which didn't last and contributed widespread death to the world.
Which the Church is happy to support and work with but our atheistic comrades want to remove all vestiges of the Church from society.
REally? what Godless regimes had decent values and didnt slaughter tens or hundreds of millions?
It's not about piling up the bodies of people killed by those of various creeds and saying "christians killed less, therefore christianity is better". There are little or no societies that have no blood on their hands. The point was that no matter how murderous someone may have been they did not murder indiscriminately, they still had a concept that murder is wrong. There are those that don't but they're considered mentally ill. You asked me if I can say something is "always wrong". What's "always wrong" is universally undesirable behaviour. A good example would be slavery. No sane person wants himself or his loved ones to be subjected to slavery so no one could ever propagate the idea that there is nothing wrong with slavery because if it ever caught on he would be running the risk of being subjected to it himself. What people can do though is say that "there is nothing wrong with enslaving [insert group here] because [insert excuse here]" and the excuse defines this group as different to his own group in some way and therefore not deserving of the same treatment he gives to his own group. Things like this are right out of the bible; how the Jews regularly slaughtered and enslaved their neighbours (other Jews were also enslaved but different rules applied to them, e.g. they were not kept for life) and had no qualms with it because they were "god's enemies". the point is that even while running a foreigner through with a sword, killing another Jew remained "always wrong".Godless China slaughtered hundreds of millions before they heard about Christianity. history!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history#Chinese_dynasties
historian Peter Perdue has shown that the decimation of the Dzungars was the result of an explicit policy of extermination launched by the Qianlong emperor.[95] Although this "deliberate use of massacre" has been largely ignored by modern scholars,[96] Perdue has called it an "ethnic genocide" and argued that it brought a "final solution" to China's problems on its northwest frontier for one century.[94] Mark Levene, a historian who specializes in the study of genocide,[57] has stated that the extermination of the Dzungars was "arguably the eighteenth century genocide par excellence."[97]
Then there is the tanguts 1252 19 millions killed by china.
http://www.mega.nu/ampp/rummel/sod.tab2.1b.gif line 455
Mongols 14th and 15th century -30 million dead - non christian!
http://www.mega.nu/ampp/rummel/sod.chap2.htm
For just those historical democide estimates I have been able to find or make here, pre-20th century democide has been around 16 to 17 times more lethal than war.
Yet godless china got through 100 million dead before the 20 Century and godless Japan 1570-1638 slaughtered (http://www.mega.nu/ampp/rummel/sod.tab2.1b.gif lines 428 to 433) 1.5 million including 238,000 Christians.
Four short periods in ancient china 221BC 220AD 618AD and 1626-55
Total losses for these four ~(not due to Christianity in China) 123 Million! - line 242
What christian regime ordered the deaths of numbers like these godless regimes?
So in the past, to varying extents, atheists have persecuted christians and vice versa, Christians, Muslims and Jews have all persecuted each other as well as, for example, gays and women. Buddhists and Muslims are persecuting each other as we speak. Catholic has persecuted protestant and vice versa. Whites have persecuted blacks and vice versa. Dublin northsider has persecuted southsider and vice versa. The list is endless but the point is that any group of human beings, including christians, is capable of defining another group as different in some way for the purposes of convincing themselves that it is acceptable to apply different rules to them than those that they apply to their own. Just look at some of the things that Abraham Lincolm, the man who freed the slaves, said of black people
300 years ago most christians would not have batted an eyelid at keeping a black slave. Black people were different and inferior and so there was nothing wrong with enslaving them. God did not come down and give christians a new revelation that suddenly made them realise after 1800 years that slavery was wrong, this change came as a result of people convincing others, not that slavery was wrong because they already knew that enslaving a white person was wrong, but that enslaving a black person was just as wrong as enslaving a white person. The problem with ethics is not the existence or non existence of a god and nor is it with convincing someone that killing is wrong. Every sane human being already knows that killing is wrong because no sane human being wants himself and his loved ones to be killed, whether god exists or not. The problem is convincing people that the excuse they have used to convince themselves that some other group are not deserving of the same treatment as their own group, something that christians are just as susceptible to as everyone else, is invalid.You and I are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other races. Whether it be right or wrong, I need not discuss; but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think. Your race suffer very greatly, many of them by living amongst us, while ours suffer from your presence. In a word, we suffer on each side. If this is admitted, it affords a reason at least why we should be separated.
....
I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races. I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. ... And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.0 -
Moved from here at mod request
Communism doesn't have to be atheistic and atheism doesn't have to be communisitic. And nor does atheism necessarily mean a murderous totalitarian dictatorship run by a megalomianic. Do you actually think that's the type of society that the people over on the A&A forum want? Why not consider a place like Sweden, a country where ~80% of people profess no faith in god and which is not a murderous hell hole?
It's not about piling up the bodies of people killed by those of various creeds and saying "christians killed less, therefore christianity is better".
Actually it is in a way!
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65913308&postcount=421Sure. Using your definitions, take out a few history books and look for any war in the past 2000 years where any of the combatants were christian.
That is what i did!
We are making a scientific measurement of deaths caused. crude and all as it is the measurement is which caused more deaths Christian regimes or atheistic ones.
Here are some more messages in which posted sources:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65961163&postcount=482
Where I show Monosharp made up a number and ask himn to actually supply sources.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65949837&postcount=465
Where sTealthRolex clearly outlines the argument and shows how christian regimes can't be blamed for over 100 million deaths by genocide in America in the way that Stalinism can in russia or Maoism in china.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65945678&postcount=457
In which I refer to EROLS before Moonsharp supplied it and (at the bottom - last link given
Erols is actually Matthew White http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/)
I expose Moonsharps reluctance to reveal the source from which he was quoting was probably because while it does show some millions killed by christians killing each other for example in the thirty Years War these are dwarfed by the numbers given in that same source for atheistic regimes.There are little or no societies that have no blood on their hands.
Indeed which is why I did not claim christian regimes were responsible for no deaths at all.The point was that no matter how murderous someone may have been they did not murder indiscriminately, they still had a concept that murder is wrong.
Indeed they did, and atheistic regimes killed over a thousand times more per year then christian ones did!There are those that don't but they're considered mentally ill.
If a guy is a mass murdering criminal don't worry about whether he is ill or evil - deal with him. WE all know murder is wrong. which is worse a christian murdering another person because they didn't convert to Christianity or someone who is hell bent on getting everyone to say "There is no God" who murders a thousand people?You asked me if I can say something is "always wrong". What's "always wrong" is universally undesirable behaviour.
And when the damage of that universally undesirable behavior is a thousand times worse you don't think that has anything to do with atheistic regimes. But when Christian regimes cause anything wrong all the ills of society are the fault of the institution of the church and religion should be removed from society?A good example would be slavery.
Which the Church always opposed and gave leadership in opposing it with the exception on one pope for about 30 years and whose successor reversed his decision to support slavery.No sane person wants himself or his loved ones to be subjected to slavery so no one could ever propagate the idea that there is nothing wrong with slavery because if it ever caught on he would be running the risk of being subjected to it himself.
Well this is arguable. some people want to be slaves to tax, to conforming with social pressure, to authoritarian dogma, etc.What people can do though is say that "there is nothing wrong with enslaving [insert group here] because [insert excuse here]" and the excuse defines this group as different to his own group in some way and therefore not deserving of the same treatment he gives to his own group. Things like this are right out of the bible; how the Jews regularly slaughtered and enslaved their neighbours (other Jews were also enslaved but different rules applied to them, e.g. they were not kept for life) and had no qualms with it because they were "god's enemies". the point is that even while running a foreigner through with a sword, killing another Jew remained "always wrong".
Others have already dealt with the idea of slavery in the Bible. Suffice it to say some people whether believers or not and whether today or in history do not always consider slavery wrong.So in the past, to varying extents, atheists have persecuted christians and vice versa, Christians, Muslims and Jews have all persecuted each other as well as, for example, gays and women. Buddhists and Muslims are persecuting each other as we speak. Catholic has persecuted protestant and vice versa. Whites have persecuted blacks and vice versa. Dublin northsider has persecuted southsider and vice versa. The list is endless but the point is that any group of human beings, including christians, is capable of defining another group as different in some way for the purposes of convincing themselves that it is acceptable to apply different rules to them than those that they apply to their own.
Yes ill accept this It is what one of the references I supplied Bob Altemeyer calls "in groups and out groups" You should read his book . It is free online:
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
then think is however when you look at the above "outings" you find that atheistic regimes caused over a thousand times the rate of death that christian ones did. Now if you saw a St Annes Hjospital for sick children and "Atheists hospital run by non believers" And you looked at them for ten years and found that in Saint Annes ten patient - one a year had died and in the Atheistic hospital ten thousand patients had died you want us seriously to believe that you would not say "well maybe the management regime has a problem with their mindset?"Just look at some of the things that Abraham Lincolm, the man who freed the slaves, said of black people
... The problem is convincing people that the excuse they have used to convince themselves that some other group are not deserving of the same treatment as their own group, something that christians are just as susceptible to as everyone else, is invalid.
But I DO believe atheistic regimes should be subjected to the same rational treatment as Christian ones! And when we apply the same criteria they are over 1000 times worse!0 -
So you acknowledge that whether god exists or not that everyone, atheist, Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Jew, Mormon and Scientologist all know that murder is wrong but they're all capable of convincing themselves that out-groups are not deserving of the same treatment as their own group and persecuting them to some extent, be it slaughtering them or just holding a mild dislike for them. They have all acted on these impulses and murdered others but you judge atheism to be the worst based simply on body count, you believe that someone who happens to be a christian who murders a thousand people is somehow more virtuous than someone who happens to be an atheist who murders a hundred thousand.
Tell me, had the crusades (or any other such massacre carried out by christians) happened now with modern technology as these "atheistic" massacres did do you not think that the body counts would have been a hell of a lot higher than they were? Or do you think that their christian morality would have allowed them to murder a certain number of people but would have made them stop at some point?
Can we not say that they are all equally reprehensible regardless of body count? Do you really think that murdering one person for being different is somehow better than murdering a thousand? Surely the act of murder is wrong regardless of how many are killed?0 -
Advertisement
This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement