Wigan vs Arsenal

Frisbee

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Was the Birmingham result a freak result too or is it a sign that Arsenal are lacking something? I would say the latter.

As would I.

We've certainly improved upon playing a game out until the end this season with last gasp winners against Stoke and Hull.

But we still seriously lack that ruthless streak needed to win trophies.

OPENROAD

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

The last 10 minutes count just as much as the other 80 minutes do. You have to play until the final whistle. I've seen Wigan finish strongly a few times this season and while Wigan showed a lot of heart Arsenal just didn't have it in them to see the result out.

Was the Birmingham result a freak result too or is it a sign that Arsenal are lacking something? I would say the latter.

Not wanting to take anything away from Wigan, but Arsenal really threw it away today, I agree with you, the likes of Nasri etc... were poor, 2-0 up we should be looking to score, 3,4,5 goals, they appeared to be on there summer holidays already

L'prof

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

The last 10 minutes count just as much as the other 80 minutes do. You have to play until the final whistle. I've seen Wigan finish strongly a few times this season and while Wigan showed a lot of heart Arsenal just didn't have it in them to see the result out.

Was the Birmingham result a freak result too or is it a sign that Arsenal are lacking something? I would say the latter.

What does the Birmingham game have to do with anything? We didn't look up for that game at all and got a late goal only to be undone in injury time. We were a bit unlucky but it was a fair result really.

Today, we were lacking half a team but, still went 2-0 up. We were missing players but, I'm certainly amazed that Wigan managed to turn this one around!

abouttobebanned

Why is there no are arsenal and wenger finished threads? Think there should be tbh.

Arsenal have made hard work of their so called "easy run in" and haven't look good against any of the teams they were playing.

Wigan were the better side today and I'm glad justice was done.

OPENROAD

abouttobebanned wrote: »

Why is there no are arsenal and wenger finished threads? Think there should be tbh.

Arsenal have made hard work of their so called "easy run in" and haven't look good against any of the teams they were playing.

Wigan were the better side today and I'm glad justice was done.

ah come on, Arsenal were not greattoday but come on, Wigan the better team???????

Pepe LeFrits

abouttobebanned wrote: »

Why is there no are arsenal and wenger finished threads? Think there should be tbh.

There aren't enough Arsenal or Tottenham fans of sufficient levels of idiocy on here to generate that kind of 'discussion'.

Plenty of United and Liverpool ones though.

abouttobebanned

They were....they had a good few chances in the first half and looked a lot more dangerous than the top 4 team.

Royale with Cheese

Arsenal were the better team until they went 2-0 up. After that they just weren't in the game anymore.

L'prof

abouttobebanned wrote: »

Why is there no are arsenal and wenger finished threads? Think there should be tbh.

Arsenal have made hard work of their so called "easy run in" and haven't look good against any of the teams they were playing.

Wigan were the better side today and I'm glad justice was done.

There's one around somewhere. Are they or Wenger finished? Not likely, Wenger looks set so actually spend some money this season for the first time in a long time and if that's true, I can't bloody wait. There's not much between us, United and Chelsea when you compare first 11's. We fall short in terms of strength in depth but that can be rectified!

abouttobebanned

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

There aren't enough Arsenal or Tottenham fans of sufficient levels of idiocy on here to generate that kind of 'discussion'.

Plenty of United and Liverpool ones though.

If the thread can be made about man utd then it can be made about Arsenal.

Every year Arsenal impress at the start of the season and then disintegrate and give the impression that next year will be "their" year. Wenger should have bought a quality keeper this year but he didn't and Arsenal are paying for it. Just cause they're younger than Man Utd doens't mean that they're immune to disimprovement.

Mr.Nice Guy

OPENROAD wrote: »

Not wanting to take anything away from Wigan, but Arsenal really threw it away today, I agree with you, the likes of Nasri etc... were poor, 2-0 up we should be looking to score, 3,4,5 goals, they appeared to be on there summer holidays already

I agree they threw it away but my point is that this is a sign that something is missing.

jasonorr wrote:

What does the Birmingham game have to do with anything? We didn't look up for that game at all and got a late goal only to be undone in injury time. We were a bit unlucky but it was a fair result really.

Today, we were lacking half a team but, still went 2-0 up. We were missing players but, I'm certainly amazed that Wigan managed to turn this one around!

What about the game away to West Ham where you were 2-0 up and let them back in to the game to make it 2-2. Was that just Arsenal being unlucky?

What about the Birmingham game where you should have taken 3 pts but allowed them back in for a 1-1 draw? Was that Arsenal again being unlucky?

You also think today was bad luck against Wigan. Come on. Some might say Arsenal have enjoyed quite good luck in the late winners they managed against Hull and Wolves. I would say it's all a pattern which shows Arsenal are missing something hence why they have struggled in games they should have seen out easily.

My opinion is that Arsenal are lacking a few established players who have experience to see difficult situations out. An established top goalkeeper is also required imo. I would like to see Arsenal up there instead of Chelsea as I'm a fan of Wenger's philosophy, but I think he's a bit naive about his team's strengths.

abouttobebanned

jasonorr wrote: »

There's one around somewhere. Are they or Wenger finished? Not likely, Wenger looks set so actually spend some money this season for the first time in a long time and if that's true, I can't bloody wait. There's not much between us, United and Chelsea when you compare first 11's. We fall short in terms of strength in depth but that can be rectified!

You say there's not much between the teams but Arsenal were spanked by man utd and chelsea this year. Arsenal are almost there - there's no doubt about that...they're far ahead of the villas and liverpools but I don't think Wenger has been doing the right things to make them a title winning team.

Frisbee

abouttobebanned wrote: »

You say there's not much between the teams but Arsenal were spanked by man utd and chelsea this year.

And yet up until about three weeks ago we were right in the title race so we must be doing something better than them.

abouttobebanned wrote: »

I don't think Wenger has been doing the right things to make them a title winning team.

Wow

Pepe LeFrits

abouttobebanned wrote: »

If the thread can be made about man utd then it can be made about Arsenal.

There have been a number of threads from enlightened and original thinkers on Wenger being finished at Arsenal on here actually; they just don't tend to last very long.

abouttobebanned

Well how many years of being an almost title winning team ar arsenal fans going to put up with until they decide that a new direction is needed?

Frisbee

abouttobebanned wrote: »

Well how many years of being an almost title winning team ar arsenal fans going to put up with until they decide that a new direction is needed?

If Wenger goes the new direction will be down the table imo so I'd be delighted if he announced he'll stay at Arsenal for the next 10 years.

parker kent

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

You've got to be joking. Merson was made look like a fool today and I absolutely loved it. Before the game he was talking crap about Wigan and Martinez.

"I think they're gonna get hammered today."

"Their players aren't good enough to play that type of football in this league."

"It's all well and good playing good football in a lower division with Swansea but not at this level."

And Wigan went out and played their game and deservedly won the match. They have beaten Chelsea and Liverpool also and if memory serves me right neither Benitez nor Ancelotti disputed that they deserved their wins on those days. Even Keys called him out on his earlier comments and he then deflected away from them by going on about Fabianski. "Yeah but the goalkeeper's rubbish...."

Merson was left with egg all over his face and I was delighted.

Fair play to Wigan and the winning goal was one of the best I've seen this season. I'm loving this weekend I must say.

If Arsenal had been on their game in any way they would have won easily. By being so open they ended up 2-0 down. Walcott missed anough chances to have made it a hammering. Arsenal's failings let them back in the game. Merson's point is that Wigan need more steel. If they could play top football well at a Premiership level, they would not be struggling.

I'm a United fan and their attempts to play football against United led to heavy defeats.

Pepe LeFrits

abouttobebanned wrote: »

Well how many years of being an almost title winning team ar arsenal fans going to put up with until they decide that a new direction is needed?

Tired of having this argument, and I'm not getting into it again.

But by all means, start the thread. I dare you

L'prof

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

What about the game away to West Ham where you were 2-0 up and let them back in to the game to make it 2-2. Was that just Arsenal being unlucky?

What about the Birmingham game where you should have taken 3 pts but allowed them back in for a 1-1 draw? Was that Arsenal again being unlucky?

You also think today was bad luck against Wigan. Come on. Some might say Arsenal have enjoyed quite good luck in the late winners they managed against Hull and Wolves. I would say it's all a pattern which shows Arsenal are missing something hence why they have struggled in games they should have seen out easily.

My opinion is that Arsenal are lacking a few established players who have experience to see difficult situations out. An established top goalkeeper is also required imo. I would like to see Arsenal up there instead of Chelsea as I'm a fan of Wenger's philosophy, but I think he's a bit naive about his team's strengths.

You may have a point in there somewhere but, you're just not putting it across very well!

Chelsea have taken the lead against Villa, City, Everton (twice) and Blackburn and went on to drop 13 points from a possible 15 and Arsenal a lacking when they do it a few times? United have also dropped a lot of unexpected points this season but, that's ok too? We have problems certainly but, you're making far too much of them imo.

abouttobebanned wrote: »

You say there's not much between the teams but Arsenal were spanked by man utd and chelsea this year.

You'd think so if you jut went and looked up the results but, having watched the matches we were much closer than that and in previous seasons when we haven't been doing all that well in the league we've picked up a nice amount of points against the "top 4".

abouttobebanned

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Tired of having this argument, and I'm not getting into it again.

But by all means, start the thread. I dare you

Are you this obnoxious in all your posts?

Pepe LeFrits

When dealing with oppo fans talking arse about arse, I try.

abouttobebanned

I think you're just a bit overly sensitive to be honest. Lose against Spurs during the week, Wigan today...embarrassed by barcelona, drew with birmingham...barely bet 10 man Wolves... I dunno...none of the top 3 teams have particularly been great this year but Arsenal don't seem to be progressing like a lot of fans would have thought they would.

herbieflowers

abouttobebanned wrote: »

I dunno...none of the top 3 teams have particularly been great this year but Arsenal don't seem to be progressing like a lot of fans would have thought they would.

Er, still in the title race up until today (indeed still mathematically possible that they could win it).

Season before last in the title race to the last.

All with a weaker squad than Chelsea or Man Utd and with their main goalscorer injured for a large chunk of the season.

OPENROAD

abouttobebanned wrote: »

I think you're just a bit overly sensitive to be honest. Lose against Spurs during the week, Wigan today...embarrassed by barcelona, drew with birmingham...barely bet 10 man Wolves... I dunno...none of the top 3 teams have particularly been great this year but Arsenal don't seem to be progressing like a lot of fans would have thought they would.

Plyaed spurs without 6 first teamers.

Barcelona without, Gallas, RVP, Cesc.

Come on !!

L'prof

abouttobebanned wrote: »

I think you're just a bit overly sensitive to be honest. Lose against Spurs during the week, Wigan today...embarrassed by barcelona, drew with birmingham...barely bet 10 man Wolves... I dunno...none of the top 3 teams have particularly been great this year but Arsenal don't seem to be progressing like a lot of fans would have thought they would.

We signed Vermaelen in the summer and Campbell in January and have had our usual injury worries, a bit of perspective would be nice. I never thought we'd have enough in us this season unless we were very fortunate on the injury front. We weren't so, all in all it was nice to be in the title race for so long!

Pepe LeFrits

abouttobebanned wrote: »

I think you're just a bit overly sensitive to be honest. Lose against Spurs during the week, Wigan today...embarrassed by barcelona, drew with birmingham...barely bet 10 man Wolves... I dunno...none of the top 3 teams have particularly been great this year but Arsenal don't seem to be progressing like a lot of fans would have thought they would.

I'm actually far more critical of Wenger than most of the Gooners around these parts, but apparently not wanting to get bogged down in that particular topic for the 435,916th time is obnoxious.

... anyway. Hopefully we can get 3 points against City in the next game and Spurs lose to United so the season will be over and building for the next can begin.

abouttobebanned

Sorry, I didn't know you've had this argument so many times already.

Moving on!

Pepe LeFrits

abouttobebanned wrote: »

Sorry, I didn't know you've had this argument so many times already.

Moving on!

Ugh, I hate these gay let's-braid-each-other's-hair moments on the soccer forum, but apologies if I came across as snarky - it's just the topic comes along so often and it gets on my nerves. Most threads on the Arsenal forum I use eventually degenerate into a arguments on Wenger. When I said I dare you to start a new thread, it was because the last guy who did so got rounded on so badly that ironically, considering we've had exchanges here, I ended up defending him from much of the forum.

Anyway, I'll say no more on it.

Mr.Nice Guy

parker kent wrote:

If Arsenal had been on their game in any way they would have won easily. By being so open they ended up 2-0 down. Walcott missed anough chances to have made it a hammering. Arsenal's failings let them back in the game. Merson's point is that Wigan need more steel. If they could play top football well at a Premiership level, they would not be struggling.

I'm a United fan and their attempts to play football against United led to heavy defeats.

If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. Let's not deal in hyptheticals (for aunty's sake). Merson's point was a load of snobbish tripe that left him looking silly. Wigan did not fluke this result. They started off brightly and while no doubt they were then outplayed for large chunks and looked out of it, they kept going and deservedly won because of this.

The Wigan team that lost to United heavily has improved a lot. They have beaten Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool. Rome wasn't built in a day and let's not forget Arsenal attempted to play football against United and Chelsea and were themselves on the end of heavy defeats. It can happen. I'd rather have teams like Wigan in the Premiership though with the attitude they have to the game.

jasonorr wrote: »

You may have a point in there somewhere but, you're just not putting it across very well!

Chelsea have taken the lead against Villa, City, Everton (twice) and Blackburn and went on to drop 13 points from a possible 15 and Arsenal a lacking when they do it a few times? United have also dropped a lot of unexpected points this season but, that's ok too? We have problems certainly but, you're making far too much of them imo.

I don't see what's wrong with the way I put it across. Yes Chelsea are also lacking. So are United. I don't think any Chelsea or United fan would say otherwise. I've said repeatedly Rooney is the heart and brains of United and when he's out we are in deep trouble. Don't know any United fan that thinks the team at present is in a great state!

I'm not making too much of Arsenal's problems I'm just saying they are there and they appear to be greater than Chelsea's and United's at this point, based on the table. Saying everything at Arsenal is fine and dandy and saying the points they have thrown away were simple blips on the radar is just burying your head in the sand.

tony1kenobi

abouttobebanned wrote: »

I think you're just a bit overly sensitive to be honest. Lose against Spurs during the week, Wigan today...embarrassed by barcelona, drew with birmingham...barely bet 10 man Wolves... I dunno...none of the top 3 teams have particularly been great this year but Arsenal don't seem to be progressing like a lot of fans would have thought they would.

At the start of this season all of the experts said Arsenal would be where Liverpool are now.If you'd offered me "still in the title race at the start of April"....I'd have dutch ruddered you.

L'prof

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I don't see what's wrong with the way I put it across. Yes Chelsea are also lacking. So are United. I don't think any Chelsea or United fan would say otherwise. I've said repeatedly Rooney is the heart and brains of United and when he's out we are in deep trouble. Don't know any United fan that thinks the team at present is in a great state!

I'm not making too much of Arsenal's problems I'm just saying they are there and they appear to be greater than Chelsea's and United's at this point, based on the table. Saying everything at Arsenal is fine and dandy and saying the points they have thrown away were simple blips on the radar is just burying your head in the sand.

If you want to just make things up, then be my guest but I've never said things are rosy at Arsenal. I just believe we aren't as far behind the top 2 as others think. This season we've lost 15 points against United, Chelsea and City where we've done relatively well in some of those games and just been unlucky with the outcomes. Previously we've done much better against the bigger teams in the league. Maybe you don't agree with that assessment but, but by and large we've done what's expected against the smaller teams. No team's perfect and will undoubtedly drop points to teams further down the table, but overall I'm happy enough with how we've done against them.

gosplan

Arsenal are very close to United and Chelsea. A better goalie, a couple less injuries is all that's in it.

They've also got a very young squad, a lot of cash to spend, a healthy balance sheet and are in an amazing position if the 'spend within you means' legislation comes in.

There's a lot of cause for optimism at Arsenal ... which is in short supply at many other clubs these days.

Mr.Nice Guy

jasonorr wrote: »

If you want to just make things up, then be my guest but I've never said things are rosy at Arsenal. I just believe we aren't as far behind the top 2 as others think. This season we've lost 15 points against United, Chelsea and City where we've done relatively well in some of those games and just been unlucky with the outcomes. Previously we've done much better against the bigger teams in the league. Maybe you don't agree with that assessment but, but by and large we've done what's expected against the smaller teams. No team's perfect and will undoubtedly drop points to teams further down the table, but overall I'm happy enough with how we've done against them.

Well when you acknowledge Arsenal have blown situations like today and yet still maintain that what happened today was a freak result it comes across to me like you're unwilling to look at Arsenal's problems. This wasn't a one-off, it has happened before.

I don't believe for one second United or Chelsea would have suffered the defeat Arsenal did today. It's not the defeats to United, City and Chelsea that have cost you imo. Most everyone agreed Arsenal had the easiest title run-in of the three teams.

What has cost you ultimately is the two losses to Spurs and Wigan this week, the two points you dropped to Birmingham with their late goal, and the two points you dropped earlier in the season drawing 1-1 with Burnley and 2-2 with West Ham which were games you ought to have won.

As Gray said on Sky earlier, this title was there for the taking but no one stepped up.

gosplan

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

t's not the defeats to United, City and Chelsea that have cost you imo. Most everyone agreed Arsenal had the easiest title run-in of the three teams.

Dropping points is what costs you in a league - that's how they work. Whoever has the most in the end wins.

L'prof

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

It's not the defeats to United, City and Chelsea that have cost you imo. Most everyone agreed Arsenal had the easiest title run-in of the three teams.

We've dropped 15 points against United, Chelsea and City and 19 against the rest of the league, I think those 15 points are quite significant!

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

What has cost you ultimately is the two losses to Spurs and Wigan this week, the two points you dropped to Birmingham with their late goal, and the two points you dropped earlier in the season drawing 1-1 with Burnley and 2-2 with West Ham which were games you ought to have won.

As Gray said on Sky earlier, this title was there for the taking but no one stepped up.

We had an easier run-in, I'll agree with that. It was there for the taking, I also agree with that but, with the state that the squad is in at the moment, it would have taken a something special for us to bring the trophy home. We had chances to do much better in all those games but, I don't think there's much left in the tank at this stage and we're just missing too many key players at the moment. The main difference between us and the top 2 is the is strength in depth as we don't cope with injuries as well as them but, with Wenger indicating he might be willing to spend some money in the summer, I'm confident that we can make up the difference!

Mr.Nice Guy

gosplan wrote:

Dropping points is what costs you in a league - that's how they work. Whoever has the most in the end wins.

I'm aware of that but it's which slip-ups were avoidable.

jasonorr wrote: »

We've dropped 15 points against United, Chelsea and City and 19 against the rest of the league, I think those 15 points are quite significant!

Of course they're significant but bear in mind you could be top even with half those setbacks against the rest. Surely dropping points against teams you're expected to beat is the bigger cause for concern?

jasonorr wrote:

We had an easier run-in, I'll agree with that. It was there for the taking, I also agree with that but, with the state that the squad is in at the moment, it would have taken a something special for us to bring the trophy home. We had chances to do much better in all those games but, I don't think there's much left in the tank at this stage and we're just missing too many key players at the moment. The main difference between us and the top 2 is the is strength in depth as we don't cope with injuries as well as them but, with Wenger indicating he might be willing to spend some money in the summer, I'm confident that we can make up the difference!

I agree with you on this though I feel he needs to buy established guys. Chamakh looks a good buy from what I've seen of him in the Champions League, if rumours are to be believed. I definitely think Arsenal are in the best hands anyway. It's a shame they're out of it by the looks of things as if United were to lose the title this year I would have preferred it go to Arsenal rather than Chelsea.

L'prof

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Of course they're significant but bear in mind you could be top even with half those setbacks against the rest. Surely dropping points against teams you're expected to beat is the bigger cause for concern?

I'm not so sure, 15 points against 3 teams as opposed to 19 against 16? I'm fairly confident (without actually working it out) that our form against the lower teams this year is much better than it has been previously which is why the fact our performances dropping against the bigger teams grates me so much. Again, without looking into it to much, I'd guess that United and Chelsea have probably done worse against the lower teams so, singling out the fact that we have and saying it's a bigger cause for concern makes no sense to me!

leninbenjamin

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I feel he needs to buy established guys.

Arsenal simply could not be competitive as a club if they did this. If it weren't for Wenger's prudence in the transfer market we could have easily ended up like Pool are at the moment. The youth policy has allowed us to remain relatively competitive while being able to repay the cost of the stadium without needing to find a megarich owner. It makes it more difficult to be competitive but it maintains the clubs financial independence. Days like today are frustrating, but I'd still rather it this way than have to be cuddling up to the likes of Usmanov to keep the club afloat.

L'prof

leninbenjamin wrote: »

Arsenal simply could not be competitive as a club if they did this. If it weren't for Wenger's prudence in the transfer market we could have easily ended up like Pool are at the moment. The youth policy has allowed us to remain relatively competitive while being able to repay the cost of the stadium without needing to find a megarich owner. It makes it more difficult to be competitive but it maintains the clubs financial independence. Days like today are frustrating, but I'd still rather it this way than have to be cuddling up to the likes of Usmanov to keep the club afloat.

I think with the announced sale of the Highbury flats earlier this year and Wenger hinting at having money and actually strengthening the sqaud, we'll have a bit of leeway this summer.

Mr.Nice Guy

jasonorr wrote: »

I'm not so sure, 15 points against 3 teams as opposed to 19 against 16? I'm fairly confident (without actually working it out) that our form against the lower teams this year is much better than it has been previously which is why the fact our performances dropping against the bigger teams grates me so much. Again, without looking into it to much, I'd guess that United and Chelsea have probably done worse against the lower teams so, singling out the fact that we have and saying it's a bigger cause for concern makes no sense to me!

Well put it this way, last season since Christmas Arsenal only lost to Chelsea. This season since Christmas they have lost to Chelsea but also Wigan and Spurs.

I say it's a bigger cause of concern because you yourself admitted the concensus was they had the easier run-in and the losses to United and Chelsea were long forgotten about! The hammer blow was not the points dropped to these teams but against the likes of Birmingham, Spurs and Wigan.

leninbenjamin wrote:

Arsenal simply could not be competitive as a club if they did this. If it weren't for Wenger's prudence in the transfer market we could have easily ended up like Pool are at the moment. The youth policy has allowed us to remain relatively competitive while being able to repay the cost of the stadium without needing to find a megarich owner. It makes it more difficult to be competitive but it maintains the clubs financial independence. Days like today are frustrating, but I'd still rather it this way than have to be cuddling up to the likes of Usmanov to keep the club afloat.

I'm not suggesting he spend silly money don't get me wrong. I applaud his management of Arsenal but I feel the balance of the team is too skewed towards youth. I think he has a faith in his young players that is at times misplaced. I'm sure he can find a better class of player for the club without plunging it into debt.

leninbenjamin

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I'm sure he can find a better class of player for the club without plunging it into debt.

Again it's much easier said than done. Take Melo for example, a decent, yet by no means world class midfielder, he would have cost us €25m. Look at the prices we were supposedly quoted for Remy, €20m. Christ, look at the price tags on relatively average players like Bent and Jones. Bargains like Dunne are few and far between, and sure when a club with the profile of Arsenal is involved the price generally gets jacked up anyway.

parker kent

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Well put it this way, last season since Christmas Arsenal only lost to Chelsea. This season since Christmas they have lost to Chelsea but also Wigan and Spurs.

I say it's a bigger cause of concern because you yourself admitted the concensus was they had the easier run-in and the losses to United and Chelsea were long forgotten about! The hammer blow was not the points dropped to these teams but against the likes of Birmingham, Spurs and Wigan.

The league is not decided on a Christmas to May basis though. Nor does it matter where or when points are won or dropped, all that matters is getting enough to win the league. United have won the league with every imaginable collection of points (beating the top 4/dropping points against bottom 3 teams or dropping little against the lower teams/losing to title rivals etc etc).

Arsenal's problem is that they drop too many points against everybody. This forensic analysis of where it is best to win points is irrelevant. Today's game highlighted that they lack the mental toughness and ability to win a league with the players they have. They are not far away, but far enough away to not pick up trophies.