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Architect Certification

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  • 19-04-2010 12:09pm
    #1
    davlor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭


    Hi there. I am just finished a single story extension to my home. As part of the agreed plan with builder up front, he was to supply an engineer's report to certify that the new build is structurally sound. I asked for this because literally the whole back of the house was taken out, and is now supported with steel.
    He has forgot all about this (i think), and has got me an architects certificate, which was given after everything was completed. The cert specifically says "no open up work was carried out" and that it's opinion is solely depending on the builders declaration that it was built in accordance with building regulations.
    Is this OK? My concern is if the house falls down where is my comeback? Should i ask for a more detailed certificate, or ask for an engineers report since i know an engineer was onsite when the steel went in...Thanks for your your comments....(Sorry about the long thread)


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    #2
    Poor Uncle Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 14,546 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    What you have got is an opinion on Compliance with Planning Permission/Building Regulations/Best Building Practices, not a Structural Report.

    What would be of benefit to you would be a Full Structural Report on the construction and integration of the extension as constructed. If an engineer has been on site during the build and inspected the construction of the key components, this should be possible.


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    #3
    davlor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭davlor


    Thanks for your reply. I am taking it then that the "Opinion on Compliance" does'nt give me recompense against the architect if the house falls down?

    The builder has told me that his insurance only covers him while he is onsite, and that if something were to happen the building, then the architects insurance covers that.


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    #4
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,973 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    davlor wrote: »
    The builder has told me that his insurance only covers him while he is onsite, and that if something were to happen the building, then the architects insurance covers that.

    All I can say is the builder is talking rubbish!

    The only other thing I will say is that if either yourself or the the builder did not engage anybody to look at the structure while being consrtucted, it's too late now to look for some sort of structural certificate/sign off.


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    #5
    davlor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭davlor


    Thanks....

    In fairness to the builder, he has done a good job, but i think he is trying to duck out of the extra expense of getting the appropriate certifications in place.

    I think i will go down the route of looking for the engineer report jst for my own peace of mind, and in particular if i want to sell further down the road i have something tangible to show prospective buyers.


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    #6
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,973 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    Given that the alterations were relatively major (i.e. you took out the back wall of the house), did the builder engage a structural engineer to design/specifiy structural steelwork and to inspect the structural steelwork installed?


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    #7
    davlor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭davlor


    Yes - He said that he done this only this week.

    He specifically mentioned when quoting the job, that an engineer would need to be engaged to specify that steel and observe it being put in.


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    #8
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,644 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    davlor,

    this is a prime example of "no professional" being involved in the work.

    I do not now see why, or how, any professional would certify already carried out work from a structural point of view, without major re-opening of the works.

    to any others seeing this thread... do NOT let builders appoint their own engineers / architects. You need INDEPENDENT professional on site consultation in order to certify.


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    #9
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,973 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    davlor wrote: »
    Yes - He said that he done this only this week.

    He specifically mentioned when quoting the job, that an engineer would need to be engaged to specify that steel and observe it being put in.

    By whom? Too late to engage and engineer or architect after construction is complete.

    If the contractor 'designed' and installed the steelwork himself, then he is solely responsible for it.


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    #10
    davlor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭davlor


    Thanks SYD & DOCARCH for your comments.

    As mentioned, i have been told by the builder that the engineer was onsite when the steel went in, so will look for that certification from him.

    I have not paid final payment to builder yet, so will be holding until this is resolved.


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    #11
    martinn123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    Think this is a similar question, if not please move , mod's.

    I am building a single storey extention, to rere, and have clarified that planning is not required. The Finance Co have suggested I will need a Cert of Compliance with Building Regs when completed, and also if house is subsiquently sold. An Architect has quoted 14% to design, supervise and certify stage payments etc and give final cert, but in my view this is over the top, for a simple extention. Any suggestions on how I can get someone qualified to check at various stages and give Cert of Compliance with Building Regs. This is in Co Meath so any contacts please PM


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    #12
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,644 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    martinn123 wrote: »
    Think this is a similar question, if not please move , mod's.

    I am building a single storey extention, to rere, and have clarified that planning is not required. The Finance Co have suggested I will need a Cert of Compliance with Building Regs when completed, and also if house is subsiquently sold. An Architect has quoted 14% to design, supervise and certify stage payments etc and give final cert, but in my view this is over the top, for a simple extention. Any suggestions on how I can get someone qualified to check at various stages and give Cert of Compliance with Building Regs. This is in Co Meath so any contacts please PM

    I usually do not like commenting on fees but i feel i need to here

    14% of what is the fee??

    any standard sub 40 sq m extension wouldnt probably cost any more than €70 per sa ft in current climate. Lets assume then that the contract price is €30K.

    14% is about €4200

    what is the service that is being provided?
    is the architect preparing all construction documentation (drawings and specification) for tender purposes??
    is at least 4 tenders being sought?
    does the supervision include a weekly site meeting which the architect would chair?
    will the architect be administering a contract between you and the builder?
    is the architect providing a final Building Energy Rating certificate on completion as well as a cert of compliance??
    are they including a snag list on completion and a further snag list after the defects liability period of 6 months?

    if all of these are included then its a good price.

    If they are just doing a basic design and then 5 or 6 visits to certify, and nothing else, then you are being shafted.


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    #13
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    +1


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    #14
    davlor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭davlor


    Agree with Syd the beat on costings...

    14% of build cost seems a bit saucy for what is a probably not a big job.

    When i was costing my job i got quotes from a number of sunroom companies who would put specific structural engineer reports in place for approx €1500.

    FYI to the other contributors, i received Certificate today from Engineer regarding structural works so am happy with how things worked out. Appears that Builder was playing money games and trying to charge me extra for something we had agreed with upfront in pricing the job.


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    #15
    martinn123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,300 ✭✭✭martinn123


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    I usually do not like commenting on fees but i feel i need to here



    If they are just doing a basic design and then 5 or 6 visits to certify, and nothing else, then you are being shafted.


    Thanks for your input. The quote from Arch, was to design, supply spec, site visits, and final cert of compliance. 14% of the Contract price.

    its a 25sqM extention to a dormer so Double Hip roof, with a valley at house. As I said I am happy that planning is not required, and all that is needed is the Cert of Compliance, or am I missing something?


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    #16
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,644 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    martinn123 wrote: »
    .... and all that is needed is the Cert of Compliance, or am I missing something?

    are you looking for as little professional input as possible???

    what you 'need' to do and what you 'should' do are two totally different things.
    theoretically you dont "need" an architect at all, but obviously i wouldnt recommend that at all.

    the architect should be there as your representative to make sure the build is being carried out to best possible practices.... in my experience as the professional input reduces so does the final quality of the build, and costs of extras rise accordingly.

    what does the architect mean "supply spec"..??

    is this a basic outline specification to show basic building reg compliance?? or is it a full detailed construction specification specific to your job??

    for 14% of 25k (= €3,500 while not huge its definitely enough, top rate id say)

    If all that is involved is:
    1. initial site visits, survey of dwelling, 'brief' discussion
    2. sketch design, alteration, final design
    3. outline spec
    4. 5 site visits to certify

    try to get him to include a snag list and final BER certification into his price.


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    #17
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    martinn123 wrote: »
    am I missing something?

    Possibly . Talk to the guy .

    Often the "small project" can be just as complex as "the large project" . How often have you tried to do something that looked so simple - but actually took ages ? The existing structure and how it is affected by the "small project" may be throwing up issues he sees but you do not .

    For instance he may be factoring time for "neighbors issues" . One sometimes downside of exempt development is the reaction of adjacent owners . Having not been given the opportunity to "be heard" by a process can sometimes bring out the worst in people when the skips and mixers arrive next door . But maybe you have dealt with this off your own bat already .

    Assume for the moment he is genuine and not shafting you . He may honestly see the works requiring a lot of hours of input on his part . Ask him straight up saying in your own words " it seems a lot €€€'s for what seems may not require so much effort on your part"- and add importantly - "why do you think the works will take up so much of your time? " . Listen carefully to his answer which could be very instructive to you - whether you ultimately run with him or not .

    Having said all the above he might simply be a chancer and that's all there is to it . Keep an open mind is all .


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    #18
    YouWantWhat
    Registered Users Posts: 261 ✭✭YouWantWhat


    davlor wrote: »
    Hi there. I am just finished a single story extension to my home. As part of the agreed plan with builder up front, he was to supply an engineer's report to certify that the new build is structurally sound. I asked for this because literally the whole back of the house was taken out, and is now supported with steel.
    He has forgot all about this (i think), and has got me an architects certificate, which was given after everything was completed. The cert specifically says "no open up work was carried out" and that it's opinion is solely depending on the builders declaration that it was built in accordance with building regulations.
    Is this OK? My concern is if the house falls down where is my comeback? Should i ask for a more detailed certificate, or ask for an engineers report since i know an engineer was onsite when the steel went in...Thanks for your your comments....(Sorry about the long thread)


    There are two issues here, firstly if you agreed with the builder that a structural report would be issued on completion, then he is obliged to issue one, and I would withhold any further payments until one is received, or if you have signed a contract with him, see what it says about such issues. Secondly, if you have a cert of compliance from an architect, this in itself is an important document as it says that the extension and other works carried out complies with the building regulations, of which Part A (structure) is a part. If you had major structural work carried out on your house, I think it would be negligent of any architect to sign off on it, if he did not have proof that the works were structurally sound, i.e. confirmation from a structural engineer. If I was asked to sign off on such a case, I would make a specific disclaimer that I am not a structural engineer and that, that element of the works should be (or have been) inspected and approved by a structural engineer.


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