Full rights for the LGBT community.

Nodin

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Some examples where people don't have children does not invalidate my point. Its a bit like the learnng to drive forum where people contend that because some qualified drivers drive badly, then learners should be allowed do as they wish. Driving tests improve better driving even if not every qualified driver drives well and even if people who never done a test do drive well, likewise marriage is designed to promote families even if not every married couple has one. .

No idea what the hell that's supposed to mean.

You might also try again explaining to me how allowing homosexuals to marry will be "destructive" as regards heterosexual marriage.

NuMarvel

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Some examples where people don't have children does not invalidate my point. Its a bit like the learnng to drive forum where people contend that because some qualified drivers drive badly, then learners should be allowed do as they wish. Driving tests improve better driving even if not every qualified driver drives well and even if people who never done a test do drive well, likewise marriage is designed to promote families even if not every married couple has one.

When someone wants to drive, they have to pass tests that show they have the theoretical and practical knowledge necessary to do so safely. They are then expected to maintain that minimum standard, and there are consequences if they don't: fines, penalty points, and can even be barred from driving in some cases.

When a couple want to marry, there is no requirement to prove, or even indicate, they are capable of having children. What's more there is absolutely no consequence if it is discovered that a couple has not had children for whatever reason. Their rights, responsibilities, and benefits remain precisely the same.

It also has to be pointed out (again) that gay couples already raise children and will continue to do so. If you are so insistent that marriage is about families with children, then it logically follows that gay couples with children or who plan to have children must be allowed to marry.

Whatever you look at it, the belief that gay couples shouldn't be allowed marry because marriage is about raising children is flawed and inconsistent. If heterosexual couples can marry with no reference to their ability, desire or suitability to raise children (and they can), the same must also apply to gay couples. Similarly, if marriage is about children, then you must accept that gay couples with children would have more of a right to marry than heterosexual couples who can't have children.

Corkfeen

Sheldon should be perfectly score to show the negative impact of same sex marriage in one of the many countries that have legalised it.Otherwise,it would appear he is making a claim with no foundation.

Zubeneschamali

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Because it entirely loses any sense of connection with families and becomes about supporting the sexual lives of individuals. This means that marriage will cease to be a privileged relationship in society and the support families obtain from that will be lost.

But gay couples and their children are families right now, and you are the one trying to deny them that support. Meanwhile my heterosexual marriage with children will be completely and entirely unaffected by letting gay people marry.

Are you married yourself? How do you feel Adam and Steve getting married in Galway at the weekend would affect your marriage?

oscarBravo

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Some examples where people don't have children does not invalidate my point.

No; what invalidates your point is your inability to answer direct questions you're asked or back up your arguments when challenged.

...likewise marriage is designed to promote families even if not every married couple has one.

...and I've already pointed out that a family doesn't require (legally or logically) that it involve children who are the biological offspring of the married couple, a point that you haven't acknowledged or engaged with.

Brown Bomber

Nodin wrote: »

Neither are healthy adults in their prime. Your question is predicated on the notion that being gay is an inherent disadvantage. Your choice of comparsions borders on outright bigotry




You didn't read these three, posted in a similar thread, specifically for you ?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88824221&postcount=998

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057136210&page=67

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88824249&postcount=1007

Actually I did read them. I don't recall any of them being "comprehensive and long term studies which show that children adopted by homosexuals are no worse off than children adopted in the traditional mom & pop normative family unit".

Can we skip to the end here? Are you claiming that all 3 of these say this? Can you be more specific please?

And could you please stop misrepresenting what I have said? I have been quite clear while you have dodged my questions.

I am STILL curious to know if it is "discrimination"/"outright bigotry" for the state to favour one demographic over another when attempting to provide an orphan with the best possible home and chance in life

NuMarvel

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I am STILL curious to know if it is "discrimination"/"outright bigotry" for the state to favour one demographic over another when attempting to provide an orphan with the best possible home and chance in life

It would be discrimination if the State were to favour one group over another based on nothing but hearsay and conjecture. You're the one suggesting that being raised a gay couple could have a negative impact on a child's welfare, so the onus is on you to back that up.

All of this is a moot point anyway. Gay people can already apply to adopt. The only issue is that gay couples can't apply jointly, and the upcoming child & family bill will remedy that by allowing civil partners to do so. They will still need to go through the same application and assessment process as everyone else, and decisions are made on a case by case basis.

The adoption process is too nuanced, and the outcomes are too important, to have a blunt instrument like a blanket ban for gay couples. A ban like that doesn't put the welfare of the child first, because as we see from the fostering process, there will be times a case worker will think a gay couple is the best fit, for whatever reason.

Corkfeen

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Actually I did read them. I don't recall any of them being "comprehensive and long term studies which show that children adopted by homosexuals are no worse off than children adopted in the traditional mom & pop normative family unit".

Can we skip to the end here? Are you claiming that all 3 of these say this? Can you be more specific please?

And could you please stop misrepresenting what I have said? I have been quite clear while you have dodged my questions.

I am STILL curious to know if it is "discrimination"/"outright bigotry" for the state to favour one demographic over another when attempting to provide an orphan with the best possible home and chance in life

http://www.asanet.org/images/members/docs/pdf/featured/stacey.pdf
This points to the fact that same sex parents are a very real thing that will never go away. There is no evidence to suggest that the orientation of parents has any impact upon the parenting ability of parents.


A meta analysis on same sex parenting too. This puts together the best existing research at the time and makes conclusions based upon it. It finds no issue with development outcomes of children with same sex parents. In fact,lesbian parents outperforming heterosexual.
http://www.squareonemd.com/pdf/Crowl%20Ahn%20%20Baker%202008%20Same%20Sex%20Parenting%20Meta%20Analysis.pdf

The issue is bb,there is tons of evidence that shows no issue with same sex parenting. The burden at this point is for you to produce evidence of a negative impact. There's nothing to say that the same sex couple aren't the best option in terms of adoptive parents. You simply weigh up the options as per usual going for the best adoptive parents rather than bias because of their orientation which is not logical.

Oldrnwisr also has a rather good post citing other evidence on it.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84231865&postcount=586

aloyisious

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Actually I did read them. I don't recall any of them being "comprehensive and long term studies which show that children adopted by homosexuals are no worse off than children adopted in the traditional mom & pop normative family unit".

Can we skip to the end here? Are you claiming that all 3 of these say this? Can you be more specific please?

And could you please stop misrepresenting what I have said? I have been quite clear while you have dodged my questions.

I am STILL curious to know if it is "discrimination"/"outright bigotry" for the state to favour one demographic over another when attempting to provide an orphan with the best possible home and chance in life

If a decision was made solely on the sexuality of the applicant parent/s, then yes it would be discrimination either which way the decision fell. Other than that, your question is only answerable with an overall YES and NO reply, as you've co-joined bigotry and discrimination. Humans making the decisions; we do err. I doubt if it's legal for those on the Adoption Authority board, or those making the decision, to provide an explanation for their choice.

"discrimination" can apply to the reverse of what people imagine, that people making a decision might opt for a gay couple rather than a single straight person as the family/home in which to place the child for adoption, on the basis that two adults are better than one - an increased chance of particular parents being at home more often than a single parent.

"outright bigotry" IMO, is a whole other ballgame, one which I won't comment on on a public media outlet.

aloyisious

Meanwhile on another continent, the Indian Supreme Court has ordered the Indian Govt to recognize a third gender - transgender - as legal with immediate effect from today. All Govt, State, Public and Local Govt offices and employees will have to accept and recognize citizens putting transgender as their gender-identity on documents and accept the identity as having legal standing/status.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/india-court-recognises-third-gender-30187385.html

oldrnwisr

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I'm more than happy to be corrected on this, and if so concede that I have no argument.

Can you provide links to comprehensive and long term studies which show that children adopted by homosexuals are no worse off than children adopted in the traditional mom & pop normative family unit?

I have spent a considerable portion of my time on boards posting on this topic. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like we, for the most part, frequent the same forums BB so there are some posts you may have missed. As Corkfeen and others have pointed out, there are many many studies which show that there is no difference between same-sex and opposite-sex families. These studies are either small-scale targeted studies:

Biblarz, T., Stacey, J. (2010). How does the gender of parents matter? Journal of Marriage and Family, 72,3-22.
http://www.famigliearcobaleno.org/pu...nts-Matter.pdf

Bos, H. M. W., Gartrell, N. K., van Balen, F., Peyser, H. and Sandfort, T. G. M. (2008), Children in Planned Lesbian Families: A Cross-Cultural Comparison Between the United States and the Netherlands. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 78: 211–219
http://www.nllfs.org/images/uploads/...ilies-2008.pdf

Henny M. W. Bos, Frank van Balen, Children in planned lesbian families: Stigmatisation, psychological adjustment and protective factors, Culture, Health &Sexuality, Vol. 10, Iss. 3, 2008.
http://www.narcis.nl/publication/Rec...:uva.nl:307079

Bos, Henny M. W., Hakvoort, Esther M.,Child adjustment and parenting in planned lesbian families with known and as-yet unknown donors (2007) Journal of Psychosomatic Obstetrics & Gynecology, 28, 121-129
http://home.medewerker.uva.nl/e.m.ha...voort_2007.pdf

Henny Bos and Theo G. M. Sandfort, (2010) Children’s Gender Identity in Lesbian and Heterosexual Two-Parent Families, Sex Roles, 62, 114-126
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2807026/

Farr, R. H., & Patterson, C. J. (2009). Transracial adoption among lesbian, gay, and heterosexual couples: Who completes transracial adoptions and with what results? Adoption Quarterly, 12, 187–204.
http://people.virginia.edu/~cjp/articles/fp09.pdf

Biblarz, Timothy J., Savci, Evren (2010) Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Families, Journal of Marriage and Family, 72, 480-497
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...0.00714.x/full

Bos, H. M. W., van Balen, F., & Van den Boom, D. C. (2007). Child
adjustment and parenting in planned lesbian-parent families.
American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 77, 38–48.
http://www.meerdangewenst.nl/documenten/AJOP.pdf

Perrin,E.C.,&AmericanAcademyof Pediatrics,Committee on Psychosocial
Aspects of Child, Family Health. (2002). Technical report:
Coparent or second-parent adoption by same-sex parents. Pediatrics,
109, 341–344.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...6c302e03b8d796

Vanfraussen, K., Ponjaert-Kristoffersen, I., & Brewaeys, A. (2002).
What does it mean for youngsters to grow up in a lesbian family
created by means of donor insemination? Journal of Reproductive
and Infant Psychology, 20, 237–252.
http://psycnet.apa.org/?fa=main.doiL...2002-11380-003

Parenting and Child Development in Adoptive Families: Does Parental Sexual Orientation Matter?
Rachel H. Farr, Stephen L. Forssell, Charlotte J. Patterson
Applied Developmental Science Vol. 14, Iss. 3, 2010


Then we have longitudinal studies, where the children are monitored over a long period of time (in the case below from birth to 17):

US National Longitudinal Lesbian Family Study: Psychological Adjustment of 17-Year-Old Adolescents , Nanette Gartrell and Henny Bos Pediatrics 2010; peds.2009-3153; published ahead of print June 7, 2010
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or....full.pdf+html

Gartrell, Nanette, Bos, Henny, Goldberg, Naomi, (2010) Adolescents of the U.S. National Longitudinal Lesbian Family Study: Sexual Orientation, Sexual Behavior, and Sexual Risk Exposure, Archives of Sexual Behavior.
http://www.familieslg.org/_comun/bib..._Sex_Behav.pdf

Gartrell, N., Deck, A., Rodas, C., Peyser, H., & Banks, A. (2005). The
National Lesbian Family Study: 4. Interviews with the 10-year-old
children. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 75, 518–524.
http://www.nllfs.org/images/uploads/...-olds-2005.pdf


Finally, there are large scale nationally representative studies which also show no difference:

Blackwell DL. Family structure and children’s health in the United States: Findings from the National Health Interview Survey, 2001–2007. National Center for Health Statistics. Vital Health Stat 10(246). 2010.


Nontraditional Families and Childhood Progress Through School; Michael J. Rosenfeld; Demography, Volume 47, Number 3, August 2010, pp. 755-775

Finally there is another large scale study (actually touted as the largest of its kind yet completed) which is nearing publication. The interim report of the project found that:

"On measures of general health and family cohesion children aged 5 to 17 years with same-sex attracted parents showed a significantly better score when compared to Australian children from all backgrounds and family contexts. For all other health measures there were no statistically significant differences."

The Australian Study of Child Health In Same-Sex Families (ACHESS) - Interim report

I have outlined the topic in better detail HERE


Furthermore, the breadth of the research in the field has formed the basis of a strong consensus which has been adopted by most professional bodies such as:

American Academy of Pediatrics

Policy statement - Coparent or second-parent adoption by same-sex parents

Australian Psychological Society

Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender (LGBT) parented families - A literature review


American Psychoanalytic Association

Position statement on Gay and Lesbian Parenting


American Psychiatric Association

Adoption and co-parenting by same-sex couples

Nodin

Brown Bomber wrote: »

.............
I am STILL curious to know if it is "discrimination"/"outright bigotry" for the state to favour one demographic over another when attempting to provide an orphan with the best possible home and chance in life

Selective reading is a great man, isn't it?

More loaded crap. I've already explained to you why theres no comparison between the elderly, downs syndrome and gay couples. If you aren't satisfied with the answer, report it.

Brown Bomber

Corkfeen wrote: »

The issue is bb,there is tons of evidence that shows no issue with same sex parenting.

When we are discussing the actual life and wellbeing of a parentless child -- who, let's not forget has no say in the matter -- there is fare more at stake than an online argument.


"Tons of evidence" is insufficent given the potential consequences. We need to be sure.

Corkfeen wrote: »

The burden at this point is for you to produce evidence of a negative impact.

Not at all. Should we then also release pharmaceutical products without testing them first? Should the burden of proof be on the consumers/lab rats to prove any damaging side effects?

Corkfeen wrote: »

There's nothing to say that the same sex couple aren't the best option in terms of adoptive parents. You simply weigh up the options as per usual going for the best adoptive parents rather than bias because of their orientation which is not logical.

I am currently neutral on the idea gay adoptive parents. I reserve judgement until conclusive research has been done. I am completely against the state interfering in the private lives of citizens though when it comes to the lives of children I make an exception.


Gay parents are potentially better, potentially equal and potentially worse adoptive parents than the normative mother and father.


People seem to be deluding themselves that gay adoptive parents aren't potentially worse parents. Or worse, they don't actually care about the actual child involved and are more concerned with their own political agendas.

oscarBravo

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I am currently neutral on the idea gay adoptive parents. I reserve judgement until conclusive research has been done.

I'm having trouble reconciling this statement with the fact that you thanked oldrnwisr's post.

People seem to be deluding themselves that gay adoptive parents aren't potentially worse parents.

Quote one post - just one post - in this thread that even hints at the idea that every gay couple is automatically suitable to be adoptive parents.

So we've yet another logical fallacy: this time a straw man. Doesn't anyone have any arguments against marriage equality that aren't logical fallacies?

Brown Bomber

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm having trouble reconciling this statement with the fact that you thanked oldrnwisr's post.?

I thanked oldernwiser's post as a gesture of my genuine appreciation of the extraordinary effort he/she has gone to to respond to my query. Ideally I would have actually responded to acknowledge this appreciaton but I am trying to manage a business here and have little time to spare at the moment.


While I absolutely accept that all these support each other and all are suggestive that gay adoption probably will be okay is there a single (accessible) source you can point to that is actually the best evidence of this. something that conclusively proves this. Something that is comprehensive, long-term and actually puts the effects on children of gay adoption vs normative adoption side by side.

oscarBravo wrote: »

one post - just one post - in this thread that even hints at the idea that every gay couple is automatically suitable to be adoptive parents.

You misunderstand me. I'm not talking about "suitable". I am saying that gay adoptive parents POTENTIALLY cannot provide the OPTIMUM environment for an orphan. It MAY be the case that the orphan doesn't thrive in the same way had they been reared in a normative family unit and as there is no other more vulnerable citizen in our society than the orphaned infant so we /the state have the responsiblity to provide the best possible home for this child, the state should err on the side of caution before making sweeping changes to who can adopt. The child's welfare is paramount.

Brown Bomber

Nodin wrote: »

Selective reading is a great man, isn't it?

More loaded crap. I've already explained to you why theres no comparison between the elderly, downs syndrome and gay couples. If you aren't satisfied with the answer, report it.

I'm speaking in general terms.


Is it discrimination for the state to (as a rule)to favour one demographic over another provided the state is "discriminating" in a best effort to provide the orphaned child with the best possible home for them to thrive in?

Nodin

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I'm speaking in general terms.


Is it discrimination for the state to (as a rule)to favour one demographic over another provided the state is "discriminating" in a best effort to provide the orphaned child with the best possible home for them to thrive in?

You are not comparing equal demographics. For the third time.


I see you've ignored every link provided, and not for the first time.

Brown Bomber

Nodin wrote: »

You are not comparing equal demographics. For the third time.


I see you've ignored every link provided, and not for the first time.

What are you talking about???


Please 1.reread post 2. Observe that there is no actual comparisons being made 3. Answer the question (or don't...your question dodging speaks volumes).

Corkfeen

Brown Bomber wrote: »

When we are discussing the actual life and wellbeing of a parentless child -- who, let's not forget has no say in the matter -- there is fare more at stake than an online argument.


"Tons of evidence" is insufficent given the potential consequences. We need to be sure.



Not at all. Should we then also release pharmaceutical products without testing them first? Should the burden of proof be on the consumers/lab rats to prove any damaging side effects?



I am currently neutral on the idea gay adoptive parents. I reserve judgement until conclusive research has been done. I am completely against the state interfering in the private lives of citizens though when it comes to the lives of children I make an exception.


Gay parents are potentially better, potentially equal and potentially worse adoptive parents than the normative mother and father.


People seem to be deluding themselves that gay adoptive parents aren't potentially worse parents. Or worse, they don't actually care about the actual child involved and are more concerned with their own political agendas.

I have no doubt that there are potentially awful parents that are gay as there are potentially awful parents that are straight. However I will happily dispute that sexual orientation is not what determines the parenting ability of an individual.

There is not a single iota of evidence that sexual orientation determines one's parenting ability. No pharmaceutical trial lasts for 30 years btw. There are adults who had same sex parents and still no signs of a negative impact from same sex parents. How many centuries do you wish to pass before we stop treating both the children and parents like second class citizens?(At this point,maintaining a stance where they cannot officially adopt has a much more negative impact)

Brown Bomber

Corkfeen wrote: »

I have no doubt that there are potentially awful parents that are gay as there are potentially awful parents that are straight. However I will happily dispute that sexual orientation is not what determines the parenting ability of an individual.

There is not a single iota of evidence that sexual orientation determines one's parenting ability. No pharmaceutical trial lasts for 30 years btw. There are adults who had same sex parents and still no signs of a negative impact from same sex parents. How many centuries do you wish to pass?

Not sure why you are directing this at me. Not once have I said that sexual orientation has anything to do with it. This strikes me as some kind of Pavlovian response on your part.

Also, are you suggesting that the welfare of the orphan child isn't worth waiting 30 years for? That their lives should be the experiment and we all sit around with our fingers crossed hoping for the best?

Nodin

Brown Bomber wrote: »

What are you talking about???


Please 1.reread post 2. Observe that there is no actual comparisons being made 3. Answer the question (or don't...your question dodging speaks volumes).

You are comparing - by using the examples of the elderly and mentally impaired - examples which are unequal.

Brown Bomber

Nodin wrote: »

You are comparing - by using the examples of the elderly and mentally impaired - examples which are unequal.

Can you then point out the comparison in this question?


"Is it discrimination for the state to (as a rule)to favour one demographic over another provided the state is "discriminating" in a best effort to provide the orphaned child with the best possible home for them to thrive in? "

For clarity: by discrimination I mean discrimination with all it's negative connotations as used in the OP, blacks to the back of the bus kind of thing.

Nodin

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Can you then point out the comparison in this question?


"Is it discrimination for the state to (as a rule)to favour one demographic over another provided the state is "discriminating" in a best effort to provide the orphaned child with the best possible home for them to thrive in? "

For clarity: by discrimination I mean discrimination with all it's negative connotations as used in the OP, blacks to the back of the bus kind of thing.

"Would you consider it discrimination if a straight traveller couple were refused the ability to adopt? Why? Why not? Should O.A.P.s be given their equal share of orphans by the state? Shouldn't partners who are both down syndrome sufferers be given equal access to orphans from the state? If they aren't, is this discrimination?"
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=89926424&postcount=514

Your question has clear, obvious and rather odious connotations.

Brown Bomber

Nodin wrote: »

"Would you consider it discrimination if a straight traveller couple were refused the ability to adopt? Why? Why not? Should O.A.P.s be given their equal share of orphans by the state? Shouldn't partners who are both down syndrome sufferers be given equal access to orphans from the state? If they aren't, is this discrimination?"
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=89926424&postcount=514

Your question has clear, obvious and rather odious connotations.

Right, so you you can't point out the comparison in the question that you said actually had a comparison and instead link to seperate question and then play the homophobe card. Desperate stuff...

Corkfeen

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Not sure why you are directing this at me. Not once have I said that sexual orientation has anything to do with it. This strikes me as some kind of Pavlovian response on your part.

Also, are you suggesting that the welfare of the orphan child isn't worth waiting 30 years for? That their lives should be the experiment and we all sit around with our fingers crossed hoping for the best?

I will repeat,the research already goes back thirty years.We have produced plenty of evidence in support same sex parents being as good as any other in terms of developmental outcomes etc. Those who are vehemently opposed to same sex parenting still can't produce any evidence of a negative outcome,they have tried desperately but cannot.

Same sex parents already exist in Ireland. Single people can adopt so same sex couples can adopt but only one parent is recognised. So all your method does is pretend that same sex parents don't exist.

Brown Bomber

Corkfeen wrote: »

I will repeat,the research already goes back thirty years.We have produced plenty of evidence in support same sex parents being as good as any other in terms of developmental outcomes etc. Those who are vehemently opposed to same sex parenting still can't produce any evidence of a negative outcome,they have tried desperately but cannot.

Same sex parents already exist in Ireland. Single people can adopt so same sex couples can adopt but only one parent is recognised. So all your method does is pretend that same sex parents don't exist.

Single people cannot adopt in Ireland unless they have some connection to the child, and to be clear I am talking about the adoption of orphans, not surrogacy, kids with a gay biological parent and so on.

NuMarvel

Brown Bomber wrote: »

While I absolutely accept that all these support each other and all are suggestive that gay adoption probably will be okay is there a single (accessible) source you can point to that is actually the best evidence of this. something that conclusively proves this. Something that is comprehensive, long-term and actually puts the effects on children of gay adoption vs normative adoption side by side.

You asked for studies. You've been given studies. You've gone through them all and you yourself agree they indicate no negative outcomes.

You've also been given the opinions of pediatric, psychological, and psychiatric associations from around the world who have publicly stated the same.

Add all of that to the fact that the State already gives (as you put it) children to gay couples, after undergoing intensive and exhaustive assessments by qualified social worker and child welfare professionals.

And we can't forget that the Ombudsman for Children herself has long called for gay couples to be allowed to adopt jointly.

The experts seems to be happy with the idea of gay people raising children. The State seems to be happy with the idea of gay people raising children. The person publicly appointed to monitor and promote children's rights in Ireland is happy with the idea of gay people raising children. If you've got something that proves them wrong, then please show us.

alastair

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Single people cannot adopt in Ireland unless they have some connection to the child

Which aside from the rather vague qualifier, is to say that single people can adopt in Ireland.

A sole applicant who does not come within the classes of persons defined under (c) and (d) above may only adopt where the Board is satisfied that, in the particular circumstances of the case, it is desirable to grant an order. It is not possible for two unmarried persons to adopt jointly.

http://www.tusla.ie/services/alternative-care/adoption-services/adoption/who-may-adopt/

Corkfeen

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Single people cannot adopt in Ireland unless they have some connection to the child, and to be clear I am talking about the adoption of orphans, not surrogacy, kids with a gay biological parent and so on.

Nope,wrong.
'Under the adoption legislation, it is possible for a single person to adopt if the Adoption Authority considers it desirable and it must regard the welfare of the child as its first and paramount consideration. This means that if you are living with a same-sex or opposite-sex partner, you may apply to the Authority to adopt a child in your own right, intending to raise the child with your partner. However, your partner would have no legal rights in relation to the child. The fact you are in a relationship is relevant only when evaluating circumstances that might affect the child's welfare.'

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/cohabiting_couples/adoption_and_unmarried_couples.html

Nodin

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Right, so you you can't point out the comparison in the question that you said actually had a comparison and instead link to seperate question and then play the homophobe card. Desperate stuff...

You are clearly making the implication, by the following

"Would you consider it discrimination if a straight traveller couple were refused the ability to adopt? Why? Why not? Should O.A.P.s be given their equal share of orphans by the state? Shouldn't partners who are both down syndrome sufferers be given equal access to orphans from the state? If they aren't, is this discrimination?"
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...&postcount=514

aloyisious

@Brown Bomber: As far as I can determine, there can be NO absolute certainty that the best interests of a child are served by placing him/her with any particular adult over another adult. The Adoption Authority can only make a choice by doing several interviews with prospective candidate-parents, by going through references and history of the candidates, and make the best choice possible going on what's presented to it.

I'm fairly certain that those on the Authority making the choices are NOT actively discriminating in favour of any minority group (excepting that of the children) within society, if that's what you are worried about. No amount of data from studies will provide a 100 percent defence against mischance in the placement of a child/children, nor provide certainty that a child would be better served by one adult over another. I expect that the Adoption Authority is aware that it's decisions are under continual scrutiny and does it's best to avoid cases of discrimination of any kind towards parentage choices.

Brown Bomber

Corkfeen wrote: »

I will repeat,the research already goes back thirty years.We have produced plenty of evidence in support same sex parents being as good as any other in terms of developmental outcomes etc. Those who are vehemently opposed to same sex parenting still can't produce any evidence of a negative outcome,they have tried desperately but cannot.

Same sex parents already exist in Ireland. Single people can adopt so same sex couples can adopt but only one parent is recognised. So all your method does is pretend that same sex parents don't exist.

It took me two seconds to find evidence of a negative outcome.


http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/09/12/lgbt-foster-parents-condemned-for-dressing-boy-in-girls-clothes/


We shouldn't be looking for evidence of for or against. This is not a partisan issue. We should have the children's welfare as our primary concern.

Zubeneschamali

Brown Bomber wrote: »

We should have the children's welfare as our primary concern.

Exactly. If the Adoption Authority determines that the child's welfare is best served by joint adoption by a lesbian couple, say, then that should be legal.

It isn't. Change the law.

Brown Bomber

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Exactly. If the Adoption Authority determines that the child's welfare is best served by joint adoption by a lesbian couple, say, then that should be legal.

It isn't. Change the law.

And if the adoption authority determines that with all else being equal the traditional and normative family structure is preferable every time to having two dads or two moms is this discrimination?

Corkfeen

Brown Bomber wrote: »

It took me two seconds to find evidence of a negative outcome.


http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/09/12/lgbt-foster-parents-condemned-for-dressing-boy-in-girls-clothes/


We shouldn't be looking for evidence of for or against. This is not a partisan issue. We should have the children's welfare as our primary concern.

That is anecdotal which is of no benefit to the discussion,shall I refer you to the numerous incidences of heterosexual adoptive parents being ****e? Evidence is very necessary if you wish to restrict the rights of currently existing parents and their children.

oscarBravo

Brown Bomber wrote: »

And if the adoption authority determines that with all else being equal the traditional and normative family structure is preferable every time to having two dads or two moms is this discrimination?

If an employer decided with all else being equal a white candidate is preferable to a black one for every vacancy, is that discrimination?

The "I'm only thinking of the children" schtick gets old, particularly when you won't accept any evidence that shows that children do just fine when raised by gay parents.

alastair

Brown Bomber wrote: »

And if the adoption authority determines that with all else being equal the traditional and normative family structure is preferable every time to having two dads or two moms is this discrimination?

As has been demonstrated to you through a stack of research - that isn't the case.

Zubeneschamali

Brown Bomber wrote: »

And if the adoption authority determines that with all else being equal the traditional and normative family structure is preferable every time to having two dads or two moms is this discrimination?

First, let's remove the clear discrimination in the law. We'll worry about the Adoption Agency's policies later.

Annasopra

This discussion has to be THE most twisted, conturtioning and obfuscatory discussion I've ever seen on boards.ie

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Sounds to me like you have your priorities mixed up. While being given children by the state may be good for the homosexual couple surely the welfare of the child must be the state's solitary concern when it comes to providing an orphan with a home? What do you suggest we do to "grow up as a nation"? Fill out quotas to ensure that gay couples get their equal share of orphans? And if they don't then release the gay lobby to shriek "homophobia!" and "discrimination!".

Now matter how "liberal", "modern" and "progressive" it is to pretend that gender doesn't exist, it still does. While the relationship between two men or two women can be equal to any heterosexual relationship in all regards as far as I am concerned all the "love" in the world doesn't make two "mothers"or two "fathers" into a mother and a father and until comprehensive and long term studies are carried out into the possible damaging effects of rearing by homosexual adoptive parents of children, who shouldn't be used as guinea pigs in all of this, then accusations of any discrimination are premature, surely?

In short, if in the future comprehensive and long term studies showed that it was more traumatic for adopted children to be raised by gay parents than in the traditional family model would you still cry discrimination if adoption agencies as s rule tried to set the child up with a traditional family?

Would you consider it discrimination if a straight traveller couple were refused the ability to adopt? Why? Why not? Should O.A.P.s be given their equal share of orphans by the state? Shouldn't partners who are both down syndrome sufferers be given equal access to orphans from the state? If they aren't, is this discrimination?

Here you judge gay parents and ask for research

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I'm more than happy to be corrected on this, and if so concede that I have no argument.

Can you provide links to comprehensive and long term studies which show that children adopted by homosexuals are no worse off than children adopted in the traditional mom & pop normative family unit?

Nodin wrote: »

You haven't seen such studies presented in other for a, in threads similar to this?

Nodin wrote: »

Neither are healthy adults in their prime. Your question is predicated on the notion that being gay is an inherent disadvantage. Your choice of comparsions borders on outright bigotry


You didn't read these three, posted in a similar thread, specifically for you ?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88824221&postcount=998

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057136210&page=67

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88824249&postcount=1007

You are given research

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Actually I did read them. I don't recall any of them being "comprehensive and long term studies which show that children adopted by homosexuals are no worse off than children adopted in the traditional mom & pop normative family unit".

Can we skip to the end here? Are you claiming that all 3 of these say this? Can you be more specific please?

And could you please stop misrepresenting what I have said? I have been quite clear while you have dodged my questions.

I am STILL curious to know if it is "discrimination"/"outright bigotry" for the state to favour one demographic over another when attempting to provide an orphan with the best possible home and chance in life

You dismiss the research as not fitting YOUR narrow ideas

Corkfeen wrote: »

http://www.asanet.org/images/members/docs/pdf/featured/stacey.pdf
This points to the fact that same sex parents are a very real thing that will never go away. There is no evidence to suggest that the orientation of parents has any impact upon the parenting ability of parents.


A meta analysis on same sex parenting too. This puts together the best existing research at the time and makes conclusions based upon it. It finds no issue with development outcomes of children with same sex parents. In fact,lesbian parents outperforming heterosexual.
http://www.squareonemd.com/pdf/Crowl%20Ahn%20%20Baker%202008%20Same%20Sex%20Parenting%20Meta%20Analysis.pdf

The issue is bb,there is tons of evidence that shows no issue with same sex parenting. The burden at this point is for you to produce evidence of a negative impact. There's nothing to say that the same sex couple aren't the best option in terms of adoptive parents. You simply weigh up the options as per usual going for the best adoptive parents rather than bias because of their orientation which is not logical.

Oldrnwisr also has a rather good post citing other evidence on it.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84231865&postcount=586

oldrnwisr wrote: »

I have spent a considerable portion of my time on boards posting on this topic. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like we, for the most part, frequent the same forums BB so there are some posts you may have missed. As Corkfeen and others have pointed out, there are many many studies which show that there is no difference between same-sex and opposite-sex families. These studies are either small-scale targeted studies:

Biblarz, T., Stacey, J. (2010). How does the gender of parents matter? Journal of Marriage and Family, 72,3-22.
http://www.famigliearcobaleno.org/pu...nts-Matter.pdf

Bos, H. M. W., Gartrell, N. K., van Balen, F., Peyser, H. and Sandfort, T. G. M. (2008), Children in Planned Lesbian Families: A Cross-Cultural Comparison Between the United States and the Netherlands. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 78: 211–219
http://www.nllfs.org/images/uploads/...ilies-2008.pdf

Henny M. W. Bos, Frank van Balen, Children in planned lesbian families: Stigmatisation, psychological adjustment and protective factors, Culture, Health &Sexuality, Vol. 10, Iss. 3, 2008.
http://www.narcis.nl/publication/Rec...:uva.nl:307079

Bos, Henny M. W., Hakvoort, Esther M.,Child adjustment and parenting in planned lesbian families with known and as-yet unknown donors (2007) Journal of Psychosomatic Obstetrics & Gynecology, 28, 121-129
http://home.medewerker.uva.nl/e.m.ha...voort_2007.pdf

Henny Bos and Theo G. M. Sandfort, (2010) Children’s Gender Identity in Lesbian and Heterosexual Two-Parent Families, Sex Roles, 62, 114-126
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2807026/

Farr, R. H., & Patterson, C. J. (2009). Transracial adoption among lesbian, gay, and heterosexual couples: Who completes transracial adoptions and with what results? Adoption Quarterly, 12, 187–204.
http://people.virginia.edu/~cjp/articles/fp09.pdf

Biblarz, Timothy J., Savci, Evren (2010) Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Families, Journal of Marriage and Family, 72, 480-497
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...0.00714.x/full

Bos, H. M. W., van Balen, F., & Van den Boom, D. C. (2007). Child
adjustment and parenting in planned lesbian-parent families.
American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 77, 38–48.
http://www.meerdangewenst.nl/documenten/AJOP.pdf

Perrin,E.C.,&AmericanAcademyof Pediatrics,Committee on Psychosocial
Aspects of Child, Family Health. (2002). Technical report:
Coparent or second-parent adoption by same-sex parents. Pediatrics,
109, 341–344.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...6c302e03b8d796

Vanfraussen, K., Ponjaert-Kristoffersen, I., & Brewaeys, A. (2002).
What does it mean for youngsters to grow up in a lesbian family
created by means of donor insemination? Journal of Reproductive
and Infant Psychology, 20, 237–252.
http://psycnet.apa.org/?fa=main.doiL...2002-11380-003

Parenting and Child Development in Adoptive Families: Does Parental Sexual Orientation Matter?
Rachel H. Farr, Stephen L. Forssell, Charlotte J. Patterson
Applied Developmental Science Vol. 14, Iss. 3, 2010


Then we have longitudinal studies, where the children are monitored over a long period of time (in the case below from birth to 17):

US National Longitudinal Lesbian Family Study: Psychological Adjustment of 17-Year-Old Adolescents , Nanette Gartrell and Henny Bos Pediatrics 2010; peds.2009-3153; published ahead of print June 7, 2010
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or....full.pdf+html

Gartrell, Nanette, Bos, Henny, Goldberg, Naomi, (2010) Adolescents of the U.S. National Longitudinal Lesbian Family Study: Sexual Orientation, Sexual Behavior, and Sexual Risk Exposure, Archives of Sexual Behavior.
http://www.familieslg.org/_comun/bib..._Sex_Behav.pdf

Gartrell, N., Deck, A., Rodas, C., Peyser, H., & Banks, A. (2005). The
National Lesbian Family Study: 4. Interviews with the 10-year-old
children. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 75, 518–524.
http://www.nllfs.org/images/uploads/...-olds-2005.pdf


Finally, there are large scale nationally representative studies which also show no difference:

Blackwell DL. Family structure and children’s health in the United States: Findings from the National Health Interview Survey, 2001–2007. National Center for Health Statistics. Vital Health Stat 10(246). 2010.


Nontraditional Families and Childhood Progress Through School; Michael J. Rosenfeld; Demography, Volume 47, Number 3, August 2010, pp. 755-775

Finally there is another large scale study (actually touted as the largest of its kind yet completed) which is nearing publication. The interim report of the project found that:

"On measures of general health and family cohesion children aged 5 to 17 years with same-sex attracted parents showed a significantly better score when compared to Australian children from all backgrounds and family contexts. For all other health measures there were no statistically significant differences."

The Australian Study of Child Health In Same-Sex Families (ACHESS) - Interim report

I have outlined the topic in better detail HERE


Furthermore, the breadth of the research in the field has formed the basis of a strong consensus which has been adopted by most professional bodies such as:

American Academy of Pediatrics

Policy statement - Coparent or second-parent adoption by same-sex parents

Australian Psychological Society

Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender (LGBT) parented families - A literature review


American Psychoanalytic Association

Position statement on Gay and Lesbian Parenting


American Psychiatric Association

Adoption and co-parenting by same-sex couples

More research and.... More research

But hang on....

Brown Bomber wrote: »

When we are discussing the actual life and wellbeing of a parentless child -- who, let's not forget has no say in the matter -- there is fare more at stake than an online argument.


"Tons of evidence" is insufficent given the potential consequences. We need to be sure.


Not at all. Should we then also release pharmaceutical products without testing them first? Should the burden of proof be on the consumers/lab rats to prove any damaging side effects?


I am currently neutral on the idea gay adoptive parents. I reserve judgement until conclusive research has been done. I am completely against the state interfering in the private lives of citizens though when it comes to the lives of children I make an exception.


Gay parents are potentially better, potentially equal and potentially worse adoptive parents than the normative mother and father.


People seem to be deluding themselves that gay adoptive parents aren't potentially worse parents. Or worse, they don't actually care about the actual child involved and are more concerned with their own political agendas.

You don't really want to listen to any of the research at all. All you are doing is asking for research and then dismissing it as not enough.

Hilariously as well as that you claim to be neutral and non judgemental on the issue despite your earlier non neutral judgements.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I thanked oldernwiser's post as a gesture of my genuine appreciation of the extraordinary effort he/she has gone to to respond to my query. Ideally I would have actually responded to acknowledge this appreciaton but I am trying to manage a business here and have little time to spare at the moment.

While I absolutely accept that all these support each other and all are suggestive that gay adoption probably will be okay is there a single (accessible) source you can point to that is actually the best evidence of this. something that conclusively proves this. Something that is comprehensive, long-term and actually puts the effects on children of gay adoption vs normative adoption side by side.

You misunderstand me. I'm not talking about "suitable". I am saying that gay adoptive parents POTENTIALLY cannot provide the OPTIMUM environment for an orphan. It MAY be the case that the orphan doesn't thrive in the same way had they been reared in a normative family unit and as there is no other more vulnerable citizen in our society than the orphaned infant so we /the state have the responsiblity to provide the best possible home for this child, the state should err on the side of caution before making sweeping changes to who can adopt. The child's welfare is paramount.

Ah yes - now you are too busy because you are being called out on your contortionism

Corkfeen wrote: »

I have no doubt that there are potentially awful parents that are gay as there are potentially awful parents that are straight. However I will happily dispute that sexual orientation is not what determines the parenting ability of an individual.

There is not a single iota of evidence that sexual orientation determines one's parenting ability. No pharmaceutical trial lasts for 30 years btw. There are adults who had same sex parents and still no signs of a negative impact from same sex parents. How many centuries do you wish to pass before we stop treating both the children and parents like second class citizens?(At this point,maintaining a stance where they cannot officially adopt has a much more negative impact)

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Not sure why you are directing this at me. Not once have I said that sexual orientation has anything to do with it. This strikes me as some kind of Pavlovian response on your part.

Also, are you suggesting that the welfare of the orphan child isn't worth waiting 30 years for? That their lives should be the experiment and we all sit around with our fingers crossed hoping for the best?

Corkfeen wrote: »

I will repeat,the research already goes back thirty years.We have produced plenty of evidence in support same sex parents being as good as any other in terms of developmental outcomes etc. Those who are vehemently opposed to same sex parenting still can't produce any evidence of a negative outcome,they have tried desperately but cannot.

Same sex parents already exist in Ireland. Single people can adopt so same sex couples can adopt but only one parent is recognised. So all your method does is pretend that same sex parents don't exist.

NuMarvel wrote: »

You asked for studies. You've been given studies. You've gone through them all and you yourself agree they indicate no negative outcomes.

You've also been given the opinions of pediatric, psychological, and psychiatric associations from around the world who have publicly stated the same.

Add all of that to the fact that the State already gives (as you put it) children to gay couples, after undergoing intensive and exhaustive assessments by qualified social worker and child welfare professionals.

And we can't forget that the Ombudsman for Children herself has long called for gay couples to be allowed to adopt jointly.

The experts seems to be happy with the idea of gay people raising children. The State seems to be happy with the idea of gay people raising children. The person publicly appointed to monitor and promote children's rights in Ireland is happy with the idea of gay people raising children. If you've got something that proves them wrong, then please show us.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

It took me two seconds to find evidence of a negative outcome.


http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/09/12/lgbt-foster-parents-condemned-for-dressing-boy-in-girls-clothes/


We shouldn't be looking for evidence of for or against. This is not a partisan issue. We should have the children's welfare as our primary concern.

Earlier you looked for evidence - now researched evidence is irrelevant. But hang on - anecdotal evidence is relevant.

Your arguments are all over the place really.

BB arguments
I want evidence
I don't want evidence
I'll read the evidence but dismiss it
I'll look for research
No research isn't good enough
I can find an anecdote
I'm neutral on gay people parenting
I'm not really neutral on gay "parenting"

Corkfeen

Joey,that clearly is not enough evidence.

NuMarvel

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

BB arguments
I want evidence
I don't want evidence
I'll read the evidence but dismiss it
I'll look for research
No research isn't good enough
I can find an anecdote
I'm neutral on gay people parenting
I'm not really neutral on gay "parenting"
[/B]

One small correction; he hasn't read the evidence.

alastair

There's no talking to a bias. That's why the conspiracy forum is such a happy echo chamber.

PopePalpatine

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

BB arguments
I want evidence
I don't want evidence
I'll read the evidence but dismiss it
I'll look for research
No research isn't good enough
I can find an anecdote
I'm neutral on gay people parenting
I'm not really neutral on gay "parenting"

If the Iona Institute were capable of affection, they'd hug him. :pac:

oldrnwisr

Brown Bomber wrote: »

While I absolutely accept that all these support each other and all are suggestive that gay adoption probably will be okay is there a single (accessible) source you can point to that is actually the best evidence of this. something that conclusively proves this. Something that is comprehensive, long-term and actually puts the effects on children of gay adoption vs normative adoption side by side.

I have already posted such evidence in my first post in this thread. However, due to the possibility of it being lost in the noise, allow me to clarify.

The three studies below:

• Family Structure and Children's Health in the United States: Findings from the National Health Interview Survey, 2001-2007
• Rosenfeld, M.J., (2010), Nontraditional families and childhood progress through school Demography, 47(3), 755-775
• Crouch, S. R., Waters, E., McNair, R., Power, J., & Davis, E. (2012). ACHESS–The Australian study of child health in same-sex families: background research, design and methodology. BMC public health, 12(1), 646.
• Crouch, S. R., Waters, E., McNair, R., Power, J., & Davis, E. The Australian Study of Child Health In Same-Sex Families (ACHESS) - Interim report

are all large scale nationally representative studies comparing children raised in LGBT households against those in other family forms. They are as comprehensive as any study in this field of science is ever likely to be.

As for a single accessible source showing this, I would suggest this:

Lesbian and Gay Parenting Resource Publication

It reviews the available research and details what it says.


You see, BB, there are some points you seem to be missing here. It doesn't really matter if there is one positive study or ten or 100. Neither does it matter if there is one negative study or ten or 100. What matters is what the sum total of all the research says when viewed as a whole. This is what consensus is for. As I pointed out in my last post, the professional organisations who are engaged in this research have adopted consensus positions in support of LGBT adoption based on the evidence available.

Furthermore, in neutral environments (i.e. legal decisions) where this evidence has been examined and assessed, again the same conclusions have been reached:


Third District Court of Appeal, State of Florida, Docket No. 3D08-3044

"As a result, based on the robust nature of the evidence available in the field, this Court is satisfied that the issue is so far beyond dispute that it would be irrational to hold otherwise; the best interests of children are not preserved by prohibiting homosexual adoption."

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I am saying that gay adoptive parents POTENTIALLY cannot provide the OPTIMUM environment for an orphan.

Well then you're wrong.

Even before we get to studies which actually study the outcomes of children raised by LGBT parents, we have studies which have examined the causal factors which determine optimum outcomes for children. What we have found is that the factors which result in optimum outcomes are not related to either the gender of the parents or their sexual orientation. As the author of The Role of the Father in Child Development, Michael E. Lamb states:

"First, fathers and mothers influence their children in similar rather than dissimilar ways.

Stated differently, students of socialization have consistently found that parental warmth, nurturance and closeness are associated with positive child outcomes regardless of whether the parent involved is a mother or father.

Secondly, as research has unfolded, psychologists have been forced to conclude that the characteristics of individual fathers - such as their masculinity, intellect, and even their warmth - are much less important, formatively speaking, than are the characteristics of the relationships they have established with their children.

Marital harmony is a consistent correlate of child adjustment, whereas marital conflict is a consistent and reliable correlate of child maladjustment."

The key question in this thread at this time is whether LGBT couples should be categorically prohibited from adopting. LGBT singles can adopt but not couples. In legal terms, there is a principle known as rational basis, which holds that a law such as must have a rational basis for discriminating against gay people contrary to Article 44.2 of the constitution. So far no-one, including you BB, have offered a cogent, evidence-based argument as to why this situation should be maintained. All we've had so far are logical fallacies and anecdotes which doesn't help matters.

aloyisious

PopePalpatine wrote: »

If the Iona Institute were capable of affection, they'd hug him. :pac:

:eek: Now now, one must't make assumptions about the effects that being born and raised as a child within a normative family has on some adults

aloyisious

I saw two letters in today's MetroHerald mailbox from Freedom from Discrimination and Maria respectivly replying to Freedom of Speech. FOS said in yesterdays MH that he felt sorry for John Waters, agreed with him on depression. FOS said he was sorry about Pantis, and gay peoples, reactions, wants us to have the same tax breaks that Straight married couples have BUT without adoption rights. He ends with "Mother nature did not intend it that way".

FFD and Maria told him off, FFD reminding him that gay people are not devoid of reproductive plumbing, with plenty choosing to have children naturally.

Brown Bomber

Corkfeen wrote: »

That is anecdotal which is of no benefit to the discussion,shall I refer you to the numerous incidences of heterosexual adoptive parents being ****e? Evidence is very necessary you wish to restrict the rights of currently existing parents and their children.

Make your mind up and stop shifting the goalposts.

You clearly said there was "no evidence". If I was biased, and for or against gay adoption, I could seek out evidence that supports my position. My point was -- and I apologise for I was unclear about this before and it has lead to some confusion -- that we should not do THIS. Who here that is pro-gay adoption has presented ANY EVIDENCE of any possible negative impact of homosexuals adopting? Can it be that gay adoption is/ certainly would be absolutely perfect

To be clear, I do not think that we shouldn't be directed by the evidence when it comes to gay men and women being given the opportunity to raise vulnerable children. In fact, previously badly communicated post aside, I have been quite clear in demanding that we must be directed by the evidence, when an innocent child's life is at stake.

What I was trying to say is that whatever personal ideals and fleeting worldviews we have about what is "right" or "fair" in our society we should have the humility to put them to one side when it comes to gay adoption and actually have the welfare of the innocent and vulnerable children involved as our first concern and not the welfare of the people who think they should have the right to be given children that aren't theirs.

++++++++++

This should also go some way to addressing that other quite large and what I consider rather hysterical response that came before. One further thing here needs to be clarified: As far as I am concerned a SINGLE study which is both comprehensive and long-term and directly compares the effects on the child of gay couple adoption vs normative husband and wife adoption and shows no ill effects is sufficent for me to have no problem with gay adoptions.

I have simply have asked to be provided the best study, which ticks all these boxes.

Delirium

@BB: is it only homosexuals that are a concern for you? Are you equally concerned about single parents adopting?

Brown Bomber

oldrnwisr wrote: »

As for a single accessible source showing this, I would suggest this:

Lesbian and Gay Parenting Resource Publication

It reviews the available research and details what it says.

Thank you (again). I will read it with an open mind.

Brown Bomber

SW wrote: »

@BB: is it only homosexuals that are a concern for you? Are you equally concerned about single parents adopting?

The limitations on any single person vs a husband and wife, all else being equal should be obvious. I abhor elitism but if a every orphaned child's best chance in life is to be placed with a mid-30's, University educated, white, husband and wife professionals then these are the homes the children should go to. Surely?