Full rights for the LGBT community.

Penn

Brown Bomber wrote: »

This is how:
http://www.thejournal.ie/homophobia-ireland-1313875-Feb2014/

And again, that's LGBT people, not children of LGBT people

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I'm going to explain this one last time.

A child with parents has his parents to make decisions that are best for him/her.
An orphan has no parents and the state must fill the void and act in the best interests of the child - Not people who want to raise it.

But you haven't shown how placing the child with same-sex parents, who in that case the State would have judged those parents to be the best prospective parents, contravenes that. Not only that, but one of the parents may be a biological parent and the exact same might occur.

Corkfeen

Brown Bomber wrote: »

This is how:
http://www.thejournal.ie/homophobia-ireland-1313875-Feb2014/

LGBT being bullied,you already endorse this situation by demanding for them to be discriminated against. Seriously,there's some level of desperation to prove your point while ignoring all research. Bullies do not and should not dictate the adoption system, simple as.

Brown Bomber

Penn wrote: »

And again, that's LGBT people, not children of LGBT people



But you haven't shown how placing the child with same-sex parents, who in that case the State would have judged those parents to be the best prospective parents, contravenes that. Not only that, but one of the parents may be a biological parent and the exact same might occur.

I have show exactly that. You can be bullied to death by homophobic bullying. https://www.google.ie/#q=teenager+commits+suicide+over+homophobic+bullying

Every one of these deaths is a terrible tragedy. These poor kids can't do anything about being gay but there is absolutely no need to force children into facing these ordeals when it could have been avoided, but you are arguing that it gay rights are more important than adopted avoiding the needless suffering that some of these children will be subjected to.

Brown Bomber

Corkfeen wrote: »

LGBT being bullied,you already endorse this situation by demanding for them to be discriminated against. Seriously,there's some level of desperation to prove your point while ignoring all research. Bullies do not and should not dictate the adoption system, simple as.

Not bullies but the victims.

The bullies won't suffer the victims will. You might as well be saying that we shouldn't discriminate against having children adopted to families in Afghanistan as the Taliban do not and should not dictate the adoption system.

Delirium

Brown Bomber wrote: »

This is how:
http://www.thejournal.ie/homophobia-ireland-1313875-Feb2014/

Nowhere in that article does it explain what violence adopted children experience at the hands of same-sex couples.

It's an article about homophobia in Ireland. All it does is support what all of us know, homophobia exists. It does not say that same-sex couples are being violent to adoptive children.

Penn

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I have show exactly that. You can be bullied to death by homophobic bullying. https://www.google.ie/#q=teenager+commits+suicide+over+homophobic+bullying

Every one of these deaths is a terrible tragedy. These poor kids can't do anything about being gay but there is absolutely no need to force children into facing these ordeals when it could have been avoided, but you are arguing that it gay rights are more important than adopted avoiding the needless suffering that some of these children will be subjected to.

No, you're continuously appealing to emotion and arguing that people being bullied for being gay is the same thing as being bullied for having gay parents, when they are two different things. You're also then contributing to the discrimination gay people face (which can cause just as much damage as direct bullying) by arguing that they should be treated as less than equal due to their sexuality.

alastair

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I have show exactly that. You can be bullied to death by homophobic bullying. https://www.google.ie/#q=teenager+commits+suicide+over+homophobic+bullying

Every one of these deaths is a terrible tragedy. These poor kids can't do anything about being gay but there is absolutely no need to force children into facing these ordeals when it could have been avoided, but you are arguing that it gay rights are more important than adopted avoiding the needless suffering that some of these children will be subjected to.

I think you'll find that this had nothing to do with the sexuality of his parents. The lesson to be learned here is clearly that no-one, gay, or straight should be allowed adopt 'poor gay kids', since they're so likely to be suicidal and bullying-prone. Or that your thesis is a load of old guff, masking your actual agenda. Or you're simply a WUM. Hmm.

Corkfeen

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Not bullies but the victims.

The bullies won't suffer the victims will. You might as well be saying that we shouldn't discriminate against having children adopted to families in Afghanistan as the Taliban do not and should not dictate the adoption system.

A warzone versus hypothetical bullying that could also occur because of million of other minute factors. But same sex parents is where you draw the line in terms of potential bullying. You're very selective in terms of which posts you deem suitable to respond to but never cease to claim a moral highground. Ignoring research but conservative think tanks are fine in your books....

Brown Bomber

Penn wrote: »

No, you're continuously appealing to emotion and arguing that people being bullied for being gay is the same thing as being bullied for having gay parents, when they are two different things. You're also then contributing to the discrimination gay people face (which can cause just as much damage as direct bullying) by arguing that they should be treated as less than equal due to their sexuality.

I don't know about you but I don't need my emotions being appealed to when it comes to children choosing death to escape homophobic bullying.

Again, you are a latecomer to the discussion. I've provided a nationwide study that showed that 1 in 3 children of gay parents suffer homophobic bullying in school. More than every second child of gay parents didn't feel safe in school, only 3% of kids with straight parents didn't feel safe in school.

Please tell me, because nobody else can - How can it possibly be in the child's best interest to place them into a situation where they live in fear?

Corkfeen

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I don't know about you but I don't need my emotions being appealed to when it comes to children choosing death to escape homophobic bullying.

Again, you are a latecomer to the discussion. I've provided a nationwide study that showed that 1 in 3 children of gay parents suffer homophobic bullying in school. More than every second child of gay parents didn't feel safe in school, only 3% of kids with straight parents didn't feel safe in school.

Please tell me, because nobody else can - How can it possibly be in the child's best interest to place them into a situation where they live in fear?

Which was actually addressed.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90256414&postcount=1062

Delirium

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I don't know about you but I don't need my emotions being appealed to when it comes to children choosing death to escape homophobic bullying.

Again, you are a latecomer to the discussion. I've provided a nationwide study that showed that 1 in 3 children of gay parents suffer homophobic bullying in school. More than every second child of gay parents didn't feel safe in school, only 3% of kids with straight parents didn't feel safe in school.

Please tell me, because nobody else can - How can it possibly be in the child's best interest to place them into a situation where they live in fear?

you continue to claim that you're interested in the childs best interests, yet you want them to be denied the best home possible if they parents happen to be same-sex couple.

You want policies to reflect a world shaped by thugs. You're actually offering an incentive to bullies in a twisted way. If they don't want group X adopting, just ramp up the bullying. Children don't get adopted by group X. Bullies win.

Also, I'd like to now how you managed to get a survey of adopted children of same-sex couples in Ireland when they're currently excluded from adopting.

Brown Bomber

Corkfeen wrote: »

Which was actually addressed.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90256414&postcount=1062

How is that "addressed"???

More than 1 in 2 is a majority, not a minority. And what is the point here? If only a minority of children kill themselves because of homophobic bullying then this is an acceptable loss?

Please tell me this isn't it? Though do explain yourself, because I see nothing in that post which tells me that every second child living in (avoidable!) fear is somehow in their best interests.

NuMarvel

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I have repeatedly stated that the child's welfare should be paramount

Yes, you've repeatedly said that. What you haven't done is provide any evidence that this isn't already the case.

Gay people can already adopt. From the article I previously linked to, it appears there is at least one instance of a gay couple being deemed suitable to adopt. We also know that gay couples are currently deemed suitable to foster vulnerable children (and have been for many years).

Where's your evidence that the child's welfare wasn't the primary concern in those decisions? If you're going to call into question the competency and professionalism of the people making these decisions, then it falls to you to either back up your claims, or concede that the child's interests are already central to the process.

PopePalpatine

When will BB realise the reasons behind homophobic bullying? The bullies aren't becoming homophobes in a vacuum.

Delirium

Brown Bomber wrote: »

How is that "addressed"???

More than 1 in 2 is a majority, not a minority. And what is the point here? If only a minority of children kill themselves because of homophobic bullying then this is an acceptable loss?

Please tell me this isn't it? Though do explain yourself, because I see nothing in that post which tells me that every second child living in (avoidable!) fear is somehow in their best interests.

how are you getting 1 in 2? it's 1 in 3 (30%), i.e. a minority because 2 in 3 don't experience bullying. But you'd know that if you read the linked post.

Brown Bomber

SW wrote: »

you continue to claim that you're interested in the childs best interests, yet you want them to be denied the best home possible if they parents happen to be same-sex couple.

Once again I have to say this.

I don't want the child to be denied the best possible home. I want them to be given the best possible home. And by "best home" I don't mean how many flatscreen TVs they have. Home as in every aspect of their life including how the world will treat them being included as a factor.

SW wrote: »

You want policies to reflect a world shaped by thugs. You're actually offering an incentive to bullies in a twisted way. If they don't want group X adopting, just ramp up the bullying. Children don't get adopted by group X. Bullies win.

Bullies win is the lesser evil to the inncocent (for want of a better word)child loses.

SW wrote: »

Also, I'd like to now how you managed to get a survey of adopted children of same-sex couples in Ireland when they're currently excluded from adopting.

It was Canadian.
Here is a US one if you prefer?
http://glsen.org/sites/default/files/Playgrounds%20%26%20Prejudice.pdf

marienbad

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I have answered your questions. You have repeatedly ignored the responses and just rephrased your questions. I have been quite clear in not "ruling out" gay adoptive parents over homophobic bullying. Not once have I done this!

I have repeatedly stated that the child's welfare should be paramount and therefore if a straight couple can offer a comparable home to a gay couple minus the high-risk of the homophobic bullying then it is regrettable, but then the state must discriminate against the gay couple for the child's sake and place the child with the straight couple i.e. I am putting the child first.

Anyone who says different can dress it up all they like they are putting their personal political agendas before the actual child involved.

So you are fully in favour of the vetting process by the adoption agencies in this state then ? And if those same agencies now or in the near future sanction adoption by single gay people or gay couples you will be fully supportive of that .

Would that be a fair comment of your views ?

Corkfeen

Brown Bomber wrote: »

How is that "addressed"???

More than 1 in 2 is a majority, not a minority. And what is the point here? If only a minority of children kill themselves because of homophobic bullying then this is an acceptable loss?

Please tell me this isn't it? Though do explain yourself, because I see nothing in that post which tells me that every second child living in (avoidable!) fear is somehow in their best interests.

Wrong post linked to,apologies.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=90245199#post90245199

You claim it's high risk, it's not. Positively viewing their family's relationships including rating their overall well being at 8/10 is an entirely positively sign. Plus you've got a good parent-child relationship.

If bullying occurs,do you want to know what one of the most important things is if one is bullied? A support network,generally a good support network is important, all research points to positive relationships. I fecking wish that I had talked to my parents about being bullied as it would have been an important step in terms of stopping it and dealing with it.

I don't view a person's suicide as an acceptable loss but under your own grounds. Tonnes of parents fall into the category of potential bullying. Frankly, I don't thing you give a damn. You have been debating this subject for well over a month. Ignored the research and have suddenly latched onto the bullying as a reason to not allow it. So I think you're literally using anything using anything you can to justify it including dodgy 'studies' and think tanks.

Brown Bomber

Corkfeen wrote: »

Wrong post linked to,apologies.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=90245199#post90245199

You claim it's high risk, it's not. Positively viewing their family's relationships including rating their overall well being at 8/10 is an entirely positively sign. Plus you've got a good parent-child relationship.

If bullying occurs,do you want to know what one of the most important things is if one is bullied? A support network,generally a good support network is important, all research points to positive relationships. I fecking wish that I had talked to my parents about being bullied as it would have been an important step in terms of stopping it and dealing with it.

I don't view a person's suicide as an acceptable loss but under your own grounds. Tonnes of parents fall into the category of potential bullying. Frankly, I don't thing you give a damn. You have been debating this subject for well over a month. Ignored the research and have suddenly latched onto the bullying as a reason to not allow it. So I think you're literally using anything using anything you can to justify it including dodgy 'studies' and think tanks.

I'm not disputing that gay parents can be good parents and no doubt what you say about the support structure being so important. However, I fear you are missing the point. The probability of needing this support structure is less if my parents aren't a gay couple.

Now I don't know about you but I think if I was confronted by my gay parents about the self-inflicted knife scarring on my arms, these same parents who have dedicated their lives to me, whom I love and care deeply about, I personally would feel the need to shelter them from the reality that my life is unbearable because I am singled out and bullied because I am being raised by homosexuals.

Brown Bomber

PopePalpatine wrote: »

When will BB realise the reasons behind homophobic bullying? The bullies aren't becoming homophobes in a vacuum.

I completely agree with this. Though I am basing my opinion on the reality of today motivated by the individual lives and fates of the orphans of today. If homophobia is defeatable, then why not wait until it is defeated?

Brown Bomber

marienbad wrote: »

So you are fully in favour of the vetting process by the adoption agencies in this state then ? And if those same agencies now or in the near future sanction adoption by single gay people or gay couples you will be fully supportive of that .

Would that be a fair comment of your views ?

I can't comment on the vetting procedures as I have no experience of them. I can only hope and assume that there is due dilligence.

My fear is that these same people will feel pressured by self-serving politicians, gay activists and media figures into filling PC quotas rather than working in the child's best interests.

Corkfeen

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I'm not disputing that gay parents can be good parents and no doubt what you say about the support structure being so important. However, I fear you are missing the point. The probability of needing this support structure is less if my parents aren't a gay couple.

Now I don't know about you but I think if I was confronted by my gay parents about the self-inflicted knife scarring on my arms, these same parents who have dedicated their lives to me, whom I love and care deeply about, I personally would feel the need to shelter them from the reality that my life is unbearable because I am singled out and bullied because I am being raised by homosexuals.

So then you're going to block all parents that could potentially lead to bullying. Disabilities, albino, obese,different skin colour, scars. The list is literally endless and all of these could hypothetically result in bullying. So they must all be prevented from adopting.

Bullying is bloody awful but I never viewed myself to be at fault for being bullied. The found something and bullied me over it,I wasn't at fault because they bullied me over an attribute. The individuals had a propensity for bullying if it wasn't me. It would have been someone else who was the victim if it wasn't me as they enjoyed psychologically torturing me.

marienbad

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I can't comment on the vetting procedures as I have no experience of them. I can only hope and assume that there is due dilligence.

My fear is that these same people will feel pressured by self-serving politicians, gay activists and media figures into filling PC quotas rather than working in the child's best interests.

But that fear of lack of due diligence would pertain to all adoptions and not just those involving a gay element ?

Would that be fair comment

Nodin

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I completely agree with this. Though I am basing my opinion on the reality of today motivated by the individual lives and fates of the orphans of today. If homophobia is defeatable, then why not wait until it is defeated?

Why didn't they wait until racism was defeated before integrating the schools? Because integrating the schools was part of defeating racism.

Not that I really buy into your line at all.

Penn

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I completely agree with this. Though I am basing my opinion on the reality of today motivated by the individual lives and fates of the orphans of today. If homophobia is defeatable, then why not wait until it is defeated?

Because it's only by normalising same-sex marriage/parenting that people will learn to view it as normal. Same-sex marriage/adoption should only be significant in its insignificance.

Delirium

Brown Bomber wrote: »

It was Canadian.
Here is a US one if you prefer?
http://glsen.org/sites/default/files/Playgrounds%20%26%20Prejudice.pdf

That report (page 54) shows that children who have same-sex parents(7%) are rated below (in order ascending), don't have a mother (8%), disabled family member (9%), parents are divorced/separated (10%), multi-racial family (11%), and don't have a father (13%).

And from what I can read if the child goes to private school they are among the least likely to be bullied (1%).

So you should be more concerned about a family adopting that has a disabled family member or are multi-racial.

EDIT: Also on page 58 backs this up. It's rated as being the most infrequent of the bullying. Religious bullying is higer, Racist bullying is higher, "acting like a girl" higher again, being disabled also higher as is poverty, how a student looks/being fat.

oldrnwisr

Brown Bomber wrote: »

... More than every second child of gay parents didn't feel safe in school, only 3% of kids with straight parents didn't feel safe in school.

That is completely untrue.

What the survey actually says as you posted here is:

"53% of LGBTQ youth felt unsafe at school, compared with only 3% of heterosexual youth."

The survey finding above relates to youth who are gay themselves NOT children of gay parents.

I do hope that this is a genuine misreading of the survey and not a dishonest attempt to distort the results. After all it's not the first time, or even the second time that you have attempted to pass of reports about LGBT people being bullied as evidence that children of gay parents are bullied.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

It was Canadian.
Here is a US one if you prefer?
http://glsen.org/sites/default/files/Playgrounds%20%26%20Prejudice.pdf

This study doesn't actually tell us anything and it certainly doesn't support any of the arguments you've made.

What it does tell us is that there were 2164 students surveyed in total. Out of this (Figure 2.3), a total of 994 students reported incidents of bullying. Out of this subset, 7% reported being bullying because they had LGBT parents (or just 69 students).

The survey also tells us that 65% of students who report bullying to a teacher found that it helps the situation all of the time. Furthermore, 81% of teachers agree that they have an obligation to create a safe environment for students with LGBT parents. The studies which I have posted previously also show that the levels of homophobic bullying reported by children with LGBT parents were lower in schools with LGBT inclusive criteria.

However, what the survey doesn't report is family type. Therefore we have no way of knowing what percentage of children with LGBT parents as a percentage of all children with LGBT parents. Without this, we cannot draw any real conclusions about bullying experienced by children with LGBT parents one way or the other. So it really adds nothing to the discussion.

It certainly doesn't support any of your arguments though, because a) as I said above, no useful conclusions can be drawn from it and b) the results in the survey which are comparable with the Canadian study you posted previously are contradictory.
For example, the Canadian study reported that 70% of students overheard remarks such as "that's so gay" being used in a derogatory manner". However, the US study you posted shows that only 45% of American students surveyed report the same thing. This means that the results gained from any one country have no bearing on the percentages that another country might report. So again, useless.

aloyisious

@BB... I don't get what you mean by this (Bullies win is the lesser evil to the inncocent (for want of a better word)child loses.

What is the greater evil than bullying that you see? Is it that you believe that allowing any children to be adopted by gay couples bring's about a loss of inncence, that the adoption itself causes, or is, the greater evil you write about?

Annasopra

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I completely agree with this. Though I am basing my opinion on the reality of today motivated by the individual lives and fates of the orphans of today. If homophobia is defeatable, then why not wait until it is defeated?

What that is essentially saying in a complete roundabout way is to accept it.

Brown Bomber

oldrnwisr wrote: »

That is completely untrue.

What the survey actually says as you posted here is:

"53% of LGBTQ youth felt unsafe at school, compared with only 3% of heterosexual youth."

The survey finding above relates to youth who are gay themselves NOT children of gay parents.

I do hope that this is a genuine misreading of the survey and not a dishonest attempt to distort the results. After all it's not the first time, or even the second time that you have attempted to pass of reports about LGBT people being bullied as evidence that children of gay parents are bullied.

Thanks for the correction, I was going by memory. So the fact of the matter is that according to this study, children with gay parents are 3 times more likely to feel "unsafe" in school. The point still stands. This is not insignificant, and these children deserve better than to have it brushed under the carpet.

oldrnwisr wrote: »

This study doesn't actually tell us anything and it certainly doesn't support any of the arguments you've made.

Actually it does. It tells us that children with gay parents get bullied in school because they have gay parents.

Delirium

please re-read what you quoted. It clearly does not say what you're claiming. It's about LBGT youths, not children of same-parents.

Brown Bomber

aloyisious wrote: »

@BB... I don't get what you mean by this (Bullies win is the lesser evil to the inncocent (for want of a better word)child loses.

What is the greater evil than bullying that you see? Is it that you believe that allowing any children to be adopted by gay couples bring's about a loss of inncence, that the adoption itself causes, or is, the greater evil you write about?

You have a little mixed up. Not putting these children in harms way and letting bullying dictate policy that is discriminatory against gays is the lesser evil to putting these children at avoidable risk and not discriminating against gays. In my opinion at least, and is the default position of anyone who actually has each individual child as their actual priority..

EDIT: And of course the whole letting the bullies win argument is a ridiculous notion in itself, as if there is an organised network of anti-gay youths worldwide between the ages of 4 and 18 carrying out organised campaigns of terrorism to effect policy on gay adoption.

Brown Bomber

SW wrote: »

please re-read what you quoted. It clearly does not say what you're claiming. It's about LBGT youths, not children of same-parents.

Youth with LGBTQ parents are 3 times more likely to skip school when compared to their heterosexual peers because they feel unsafe.

But this is a price worth paying right?

Nodin

Brown Bomber wrote: »

But this is a price worth paying right?

Welcome to progress. Like the rest of life its not a pain free zone.

Brown Bomber

Nodin wrote: »

Welcome to progress. Like the rest of life its not a pain free zone.

It will be for you...

Brown Bomber

Penn wrote: »

Because it's only by normalising same-sex marriage/parenting that people will learn to view it as normal. Same-sex marriage/adoption should only be significant in its insignificance.

I agree. Though this doesn't explain why we need to rush into this or why we should use orphans as tools to enable this "normalisation".

Could you provide this explanation?

oscarBravo

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I agree. Though this doesn't explain why we need to rush into this or why we should use orphans as tools to enable this "normalisation".

So we should normalise adoption by same-sex couples by banning adoption by same-sex couples until it has been normalised?

Brown Bomber

SW wrote: »

That report (page 54) shows that children who have same-sex parents(7%) are rated below (in order ascending), don't have a mother (8%), disabled family member (9%), parents are divorced/separated (10%), multi-racial family (11%), and don't have a father (13%).

And from what I can read if the child goes to private school they are among the least likely to be bullied (1%).

So you should be more concerned about a family adopting that has a disabled family member or are multi-racial.

EDIT: Also on page 58 backs this up. It's rated as being the most infrequent of the bullying. Religious bullying is higer, Racist bullying is higher, "acting like a girl" higher again, being disabled also higher as is poverty, how a student looks/being fat.

Haven't thought this through have you?

If 7% of apx 1,000 children are bullied in the US for having a gay parent that must be virtually 100% of these children are bullied.

Brown Bomber

oscarBravo wrote: »

So we should normalise adoption by same-sex couples by banning adoption by same-sex couples until it has been normalised?

You missed a bit from that post,

Could you provide this explanation?

Nodin

Brown Bomber wrote: »

You missed a bit from that post,

What "tools"? Gay couples, adoption and marriage are now here to stay, and its a question of the bigots getting used to it.

oscarBravo

Brown Bomber wrote: »

You missed a bit from that post,

You didn't answer the question.

Delirium

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Haven't thought this through have you?

If 7% of apx 1,000 children are bullied in the US for having a gay parent that must be virtually 100% of these children are bullied.

it's the Canadian report I'm mentioning.

Brown Bomber

SW wrote: »

it's the Canadian report I'm mentioning.

You were quoting from the US study. So I am a little confused now.

And could please clarify if having gay adoption legalised is a price worth paying if it means the adopted children are 3 times more likely to feel "unsafe"?

Penn

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I agree. Though this doesn't explain why we need to rush into this or why we should use orphans as tools to enable this "normalisation".

Could you provide this explanation?

"Why we need to rush into this" - Because people aren't being treated equally in the eyes of the State. And discrimination by the State based on gender or sexuality is never something which should be tolerated.

"Why we should use orphans as tools" - Drop the hyperbole. It's not about using children to accomplish something, it's about accomplishing something for the overall benefit of everybody, including children. Legalising same-sex marriage/adoption and teaching children about it removes most of the stigma about it.

You're looking at it from the point that the number of children being bullied will increase. But if we properly educate children about it right away, the number can only reduce, both for children of LGBT parents and for LGBT children themselves.

Brown Bomber

oscarBravo wrote: »

You didn't answer the question.

Likewise. However, I have answered this question previously. I have stressed patience and caution for the sake of the child and not to use them as pawns in some ideological battle.

Unless someone can explain how it is impossible to make any progress against homophobia without gay adoption...

Delirium

Brown Bomber wrote: »

You were quoting from the US study. So I am a little confused now.

And could please clarify if having gay adoption legalised is a price worth paying if it means the adopted children are 3 times more likely to feel "unsafe"?

you're correct it's the US one. Phone posting so got a little mixed up on the links.

And yes it is given the alternative is to condone homophobia in adoption policies and through bullying in schools.

Brown Bomber

SW wrote: »

you're correct it's the US one. Phone posting so got a little mixed up on the links.

And yes it is given the alternative is to condone homophobia in adoption policies and through bullying in schools.

Thank you, I appreciate your honesty. Although this now puts you holding the position where the adopted child is not paramount in matters of adoption.

Delirium

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Thank you, I appreciate your honesty. Although this now puts you holding the position where the adopted child is not paramount in matters of adoption.

do explain how you placating the potential bullies puts you on the moral high ground.

Best home for the child shouldn't be denied due to a possibility of bullying. Tackle the bullies rather than punish the child.

Nodin

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Thank you, I appreciate your honesty. Although this now puts you holding the position where the adopted child is not paramount in matters of adoption.

Look, emotional blackmail. Never saw that coming.


Ideally at this stage, were it possible, we'd have a poll on precisely who (limited to those who have posted on the thread) actually believes this is a sincere argument, believed by the poster putting it forth.

Brown Bomber

Penn wrote: »

"Why we need to rush into this" - Because people aren't being treated equally in the eyes of the State. And discrimination by the State based on gender or sexuality is never something which should be tolerated.

I agree. However, nobody has the "right" to raise a child, unless it is their own and even then comes with conditions.

Penn wrote: »

Why we should use orphans as tools" - Drop the hyperbole. It's not about using children to accomplish something, it's about accomplishing something for the overall benefit of everybody, including children. Legalising same-sex marriage/adoption and teaching children about it removes most of the stigma about it.

Actually it is not all hyperbole. You are advocating normalising gay adoption through gay adoption. There is no gay adoption without the adopted child. Therefore the child becomes a tool in this social engineering project.

Penn wrote: »

You're looking at it from the point that the number of children being bullied will increase. But if we properly educate children about it right away, the number can only reduce, both for children of LGBT parents and for LGBT children themselves.

And the reason we can't wait until we actually see the results of this "education" before putting these children at avoidable risk is................???