Full rights for the LGBT community.

DavidRamsay99

jimdublin15 wrote: »

I see...

Not that it matters then. BTW I'm all for equal rights, anyone should be able to marry whomever they want. No threat to anyone else as far as I can tell.

Go to work, Pay bills, Buy a house make each other happy or miserable, have kids or don't, get a divorce, or stay together. Be you two men, two women, or a man and a woman. I don't see a problem.

I don't see a problem either. I am merely pointing out the driving force behind homophobia and why homophobia is unlikely to die out.

jimdublin15

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

I am straight and I am not homophobic or biphobic and I fully support LGBT rights.
I am simply explaining the phenomena of homophobia which is driven by closet homosexuality.
I don't know why you are reacting in a hostile manner.

I'm not hostile and I agree with you equal rights are good, I just asked for numbers as your statement read as fact.

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

I have encountered many people who I suspected were gay or bisexual and turned out to be so and I have met people who are married and want to remain married because they like it and want children.

I know what you mean, I get strong feelings from some posters I come across.

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

My point is that is naive to believe homophobia will die out just because LGBT people achieve full equality.

It is bizarre that my post which was supportive of gays and dissected homophobia would be misconstrued as homophobic.

I agree I also don't think homophobia will die out after equal rights. I don't think the reason for getting equal rights is to stop homophobia, it's just about having equal rights.

I'm not saying your homophobic.

jimdublin15

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

I don't see a problem either. I am merely pointing out the driving force behind homophobia and why homophobia is unlikely to die out.

Homopobia is unlikely to die out. Agreed, but the same goes for sexism and racism, Bipobia and any other phobia or ism you can think of. We can all reduce the issue if each of us start by no longer entertaining it.

However this not about fixing the world with one vote, or stomping out phobia's and ism's it's simple question of equal rights. Equal rights is no danger or threat to anyone.
That's what were going to be voting on. Nothing more and nothing less really.

As for the reason for the Homophopia, you have stated it's gays and bi's driving this who are in the closet, who are just jealous of other "gays" in the open. That might be what you think however it not fact you have no numbers or personal "first hand" experience you say to back it up. So that's your opinion and a different discussion I think. (I am not saying this might be in part true, I'm just unsure the majority of homophobia stems from this) Same goes for what you said regarding that "gays" are worried that their kids they have might have same traits as them. (I have never heard this one BTW) You have no facts it's just a wide broad statement of what you think.

bb1234567

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

I think I explained what I said clearly enough.

I am saying that the reason most gay people choose to remain in the closet and marry and have kids is because it is the least troublesome way to have a family and kids.

Homophobia is primarily inflicted on gays by other gays because other gays living openly gay lifestyles threatens gays who have chosen to get married and have kids. They fear temptation and they fear the break up of their families. Since they are gay they also fear their kids will inherit the same traits as them.

Most people want a legacy, especially if they are wealthy and have a business and want to pass it on when they die. So they have kids and mold those kids in their image and when they shuffle off this mortal coil they leave their fortune and business in "safe" hands.

Most parents who learn their son or daughter is gay are devastated because it means no grandchildren. When many parents raise a daughter or son they look forward to their wedding and when they can bounce their grandkids on their knee. There is a visceral horror until they finally accept their child is gay or else they disown them.

For closet gays with families and kids the temptation of the gay lifestyle fills them with horror because as they see it threatens to unravel family and society.

It is no accident that the most vocal homophobes are regularly exposed as closet homosexuals.

It is deeply naive to think homophobia is going to die out.

Its not, most homophobes are straight. Theres an awful lot of homophobes, in fact most people living outside the western world are homophobic , do you think they're all self hating gays? I kind of get your point though, but it seems a bit naive

Also itd be lovely to think that the only or main reason most parents would hate to have gay children was because they couldn't produce grand children , but its not, its mostly homophobia. Its very easy for a lesbian to go to a sperm bank and get pregnant, and I'm sure most straight parents know this. So why do many lesbian girls get a hard time off their parents about their sexuality then..

Nodin

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

A gay man or woman who pretends to heterosexual and has a sexual relationship with the opposite sex and has children is obviously not living a gay lifestyle.
A gay man or woman who is openly homosexual and has sexual relationships with the same sex is clearly living a gay lifestyle.
The point I was making was that the majority of gay people remain in the closet in order to get married so they can have a family and kids.
They give up the opportunity of a homosexual relationship in return for having kids that are their genetic children.

And is there data to back that notion up?

DavidRamsay99

Nodin wrote: »

And is there data to back that notion up?

It is clear that the majority of gays are not out even in these supposedly enlightened times.
The majority of people get married or are have heterosexual relationships.
So it follows that the majority of gays who are getting married are pretending to be straight and are suppressing their homosexuality.
Why would they have sexual relationships with the opposite sex when they are not attracted to them?
Hmmm.
Heterosexual sex is a good way of becoming the parent of a kid and having a family?
Would these people be motivated to be homophobic and opposed to gay marriage and gay lifestyles in general?
You bet.

jimdublin15

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

It is clear that the majority of gays are not out even in these supposedly enlightened times.
The majority of people get married or are have heterosexual relationships.
So it follows that the majority of gays who are getting married are pretending to be straight and are suppressing their homosexuality.
Why would they have sexual relationships with the opposite sex when they are not attracted to them?
Hmmm.
Heterosexual sex is a good way of becoming the parent of a kid and having a family?
Would these people be motivated to be homophobic and opposed to gay marriage and gay lifestyles in general?
You bet.

No, see you said: majority of gay people remain in the closet in order to get married
A another Poster has asked you for link and data for this statement of fact.

You can't provide any data or first hand experience, You are offering nothing more than sweeping statements about gay people and presenting it as fact based on what you "think or presume" about gay people.

Anyhow were off topic. This is about equal rights not about the homophobic well intended statements made by others.

Nodin

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

It is clear that the majority of gays are not out even in these supposedly enlightened times..

It is? Where's your data for this?

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

The majority of people get married or are have heterosexual relationships.
.

Yes, we know this.

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

So it follows that the majority of gays who are getting married are pretending to be straight and are suppressing their homosexuality.

Obviously. Which is nothing to do with your claim " that the majority of gay people remain in the closet in order to get married so they can have a family and kids"

Where is the data for this?

DavidRamsay99

Nodin wrote: »

It is? Where's your data for this?

Go get your own. I am confident that if you did a study you would find evidence that supports my view.

Obviously. Which is nothing to do with your claim " that the majority of gay people remain in the closet in order to get married so they can have a family and kids"

Why would gays pretend to be straight and get married unless they want to have families and kids and heterosexual marriage was the best way to achieve that goal without being found out?

Where is the data for this?

Go find your own. I am confident that when the data comes in my view will be proven.

bb1234567

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

Go get your own. I am confident that if you did a study you would find evidence that supports my view.



Why would gays pretend to be straight and get married unless they want to have families and kids and heterosexual marriage was the best way to achieve that goal without being found out?



Go find your own. I am confident that when the data comes in my view will be proven.

I really would doubt that the majority of gay people in the western world enter into heterosexual relationships. I would say definitely a significant number do, but you really think MORE than every 1 in 2 gay people are married to somebody of the opposite sex? Id say you're statistic might hold true in countries like India and Pakistan where men and women are expected/obliged and sometimes forced to marry people of the opposite gender, regardless of their sexual orientation.

Like I live in Dublin and I don't know any married gay couples personally, though I know two gay men who married women, had children and later came out. So I think you're onto something but I find it very hard to believe that gay people who marry people of the opposite gender are in the majority.

marienbad

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

It is clear that the majority of gays are not out even in these supposedly enlightened times.
The majority of people get married or are have heterosexual relationships.
So it follows that the majority of gays who are getting married are pretending to be straight and are suppressing their homosexuality.
Why would they have sexual relationships with the opposite sex when they are not attracted to them?
Hmmm.
Heterosexual sex is a good way of becoming the parent of a kid and having a family?
Would these people be motivated to be homophobic and opposed to gay marriage and gay lifestyles in general?
You bet.

This is just confused nonsense , the reason most gay people stayed in the closet is because of the clear and obvious homophobia exhibited by mainstream society.

And as that homophobia lessens so too will people saying in the 'closet'.

jimdublin15

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

Go get your own. I am confident that if you did a study you would find evidence that supports my view.



Why would gays pretend to be straight and get married unless they want to have families and kids and heterosexual marriage was the best way to achieve that goal without being found out?



Go find your own. I am confident that when the data comes in my view will be proven.

In other words you have no data to backup your wide sweeping statements and generalizations about gay & other LGBT people. I mean that's fine, your fully entitled to have a feelings and/or an opinion without fact. Just don't present "your theory and feelings" about gays as facts.

Look I mean I for one do not believe in Homo or Heterosexuals, never have understood and never will. I simply just can't Imagen it, seems freakish to me. But I would never present my belief of this as a stern fact.

jimdublin15

On the topic equal rights I stand by the idea that:

Go to work, Pay bills, Buy a house make each other happy or miserable, have kids or don't, get a divorce, or stay together. Be you two men, two women, or a man and a woman. I don't see a problem.

Nodin

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

Go get your own. I am confident that if you did a study you would find evidence that supports my view..

This is a nonsense. You made a claim, it's for you to back it up.

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

Why would gays pretend to be straight and get married unless they want to have families and kids and heterosexual marriage was the best way to achieve that goal without being found out?.

Denial, fear of family reaction, fear of homophobia.....

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

Go find your own. I am confident that when the data comes in my view will be proven.

You made a claim, it's for you to back it up or withdraw it.

You stated "the majority of gay people remain in the closet in order to get married so they can have a family and kids". Where are the studies and data to back this up?

johnnyskeleton

jimdublin15 wrote: »

Look I mean I for one do not believe in Homo or Heterosexuals, never have understood and never will. I simply just can't Imagen it, seems freakish to me. But I would never present my belief of this as a stern fact.

Mod: This is a serious forum for serious Political posts. From the charter:

This forum is for discussion and debate, we will not tolerate soapboxing. If you are here to "shout everyone down" with your opinions, we will see you as a negative contributor to the forum and will take appropriate action.

Denying the very existence of human sexuality and/or the scientific terms is, as opinions go, like denying the existence of gravity, or not believing in Hummingbirds. Sure, youre entitled to your opinion, there very well may be a valid basis for that opinion, but if you want to discuss that opinion from a scientific point of view Im sure youll find a forum like Biology or Sex and Sexuality where such things may be discussed.

But for the political discussion herein, we can take it as a fact that both homo- and hetero-sexual people exist and the question is now how we deal with their rights. If you are unwilling to accept that basic premise then please dont post in this thread anymore

jimdublin15

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Mod: This is a serious forum for serious Political posts. From the charter:



Denying the very existence of human sexuality and/or the scientific terms is, as opinions go, like denying the existence of gravity, or not believing in Hummingbirds. Sure, youre entitled to your opinion, there very well may be a valid basis for that opinion, but if you want to discuss that opinion from a scientific point of view Im sure youll find a forum like Biology or Sex and Sexuality where such things may be discussed.

But for the political discussion herein, we can take it as a fact that both homo- and hetero-sexual people exist and the question is now how we deal with their rights. If you are unwilling to accept that basic premise then please dont post in this thread anymore

Sorry for the upset will keep to topic, the context was merely as an example towards a poster on the difference of having a personal feeling and/or stating a fact. The reason for it was the other poster was making some sweeping statements of his own beliefs without offering facts. Again no upset or change in subject was my intent and I fully respect others have different feelings.

On the topic equal rights as mentioned I stand by the idea that we should all have equal rights.

Go to work, Pay bills, Buy a house make each other happy or miserable, have kids or don't, get a divorce, or stay together. Be you two men, two women, or a man and a woman.

I don't see a problem, I don't see or understand why we can't all have equal rights, or what damage it would do if we all did have equal rights. It just seems more than fair to me that we all have them.

aloyisious

@DavidRamsay99... I believe that the points you raised were relevant in the past, as people read/understood how society dealt with the issue of gay people and marriage then, and not relevant to how our fellow gay citizens should have equal access to Civil Marriage on a par with our straight citizens. Be that as it may, maybe you would like to read and answer the questions below.

Do you believe that homophobia is solely down to gay people who have married within the straight lifestyle?

Do you think that Religious/social/familial factors may have had bearing on decisions made by gay people to marry opposite sex partners, in the style of straight people?

Do you think that gay people who married as I've described above in line with the societal ethos were:

A. honest or living a lie; and

B. as a result are being homophobic to continue to "hide" that they are gay, because of the effects of their coming out would have on their wives/husbands and/or kids?

DavidRamsay99

aloyisious wrote: »

@DavidRamsay99... I believe that the points you raised were relevant in the past, as people read/understood how society dealt with the issue of gay people and marriage then, and not relevant to how our fellow gay citizens should have equal access to Civil Marriage on a par with our straight citizens. Be that as it may, maybe you would like to read and answer the questions below.

Do you believe that homophobia is solely down to gay people who have married within the straight lifestyle?

Do you think that Religious/social/familial factors may have had bearing on decisions made by gay people to marry opposite sex partners, in the style of straight people?

Do you think that gay people who married as I've described above in line with the societal ethos were:

A. honest or living a lie; and

B. as a result are being homophobic to continue to "hide" that they are gay, because of the effects of their coming out would have on their wives/husbands and/or kids?

When you make a life commitment you can't expect to go the distance without entering it 100%.
I have no doubt the majority of gay people make a conscious decision to pretend to be straight for the purpose of having a family and children.
They totally subsume themselves for the sake of having children.
Which is why homophobia is so hardline and inflexible.
They feel that if homosexuality is ever normalized then they whole edifice of their carefully constructed reality will begin to crack.
I believe it is less about societal pressure and more about an internal struggle.
Straight people have no reason to be anti-gay.
It is closet gays who oppress other gays.

Nodin

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

When you make a life commitment you can't expect to go the distance without entering it 100%.
I have no doubt the majority of gay people make a conscious decision to pretend to be straight for the purpose of having a family and children.
.

Where is your evidence?

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

They totally subsume themselves for the sake of having children.
Which is why homophobia is so hardline and inflexible.
They feel that if homosexuality is ever normalized then they whole edifice of their carefully constructed reality will begin to crack.
I believe it is less about societal pressure and more about an internal struggle..

Where is your evidence?

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

Straight people have no reason to be anti-gay.
It is closet gays who oppress other gays.

Nonsense.

marienbad

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

When you make a life commitment you can't expect to go the distance without entering it 100%.
I have no doubt the majority of gay people make a conscious decision to pretend to be straight for the purpose of having a family and children.
They totally subsume themselves for the sake of having children.
Which is why homophobia is so hardline and inflexible.
They feel that if homosexuality is ever normalized then they whole edifice of their carefully constructed reality will begin to crack.
I believe it is less about societal pressure and more about an internal struggle.
Straight people have no reason to be anti-gay.
It is closet gays who oppress other gays.

And closet Jews oppressed Jews in Germany , and brainwashed women denied other women the vote , the good old self hate motive .I have seen a lot of rubbish theories in my time but this bunkum tops the lot .

Talk about victim blaming.

johnnyskeleton

DavidRamsay99 wrote: »

I have no doubt the majority of gay people make a conscious decision to pretend to be straight for the purpose of having a family and children.
They totally subsume themselves for the sake of having children.
Which is why homophobia is so hardline and inflexible.
They feel that if homosexuality is ever normalized then they whole edifice of their carefully constructed reality will begin to crack.
I believe it is less about societal pressure and more about an internal struggle.
Straight people have no reason to be anti-gay.
It is closet gays who oppress other gays.

Mod note: From the charter:

When offering fact, please offer relevant linkage, or at least source. Simply saying "a quick search on google...." is often, but not always, enough. If you do not do this upon posting, then please be willing to do so on request.

You have asserted this position several times without any reference to statistics etc. You say it is your honest belief and I'm sure it is. However, this forum is not a place for people to simply assert their beliefs ad nauseum without advancing the argument.

I think you've been given a fair amount of leeway as regards your posts, but if you are going to continue along the line of this most gay people are in hetrosexual relationships and therefore are closet homophobes argument then please provide statistics or else don't post again.

johnnyskeleton

Mod: Ok, this thread has run its course. If anyone wants to reopen it with real debate please PM myself or another mod. Needless to say, if you want to discuss the holocaust, this is not the forum for it