Vegetarian problems

m@cc@

dr.bollocko wrote: »

That is an old argument and has been already discounted. for a number of reasons. It over-simplifies observations with a confirmation bias.

The point I was trying to make and as I've stated before was that what is meant by 'as nature intended'? Humans have evolved to be able to digest meat? Is evolution 'as nature intended'? You decide.

Maybe you could state an opinion of your own instead of cut and paste? Just a thought.

dr.bollocko

m@cc@ wrote: »

The point I was trying to make and as I've stated before was that what is meant by 'as nature intended'? Humans have evolved to be able to digest meat? Is evolution 'as nature intended'? You decide.

I get to decide?!
Can we have, umm, wings next?

Zillah

m@cc@ wrote: »

The point I was trying to make and as I've stated before was that what is meant by 'as nature intended'? Humans have evolved to be able to digest meat? Is evolution 'as nature intended'? You decide.

The term "as nature intended" means absolutely nothing beyond being a rather ignorant way of saying "what has been evolutionarily successful up to this point".

m@cc@

Zillah wrote: »

The term "as nature intended" means absolutely nothing beyond being a rather ignorant way of saying "what has been evolutionarily successful up to this point".

I agree, it's redundant term.

topper75

Dear Veggies,

That cow that you didn't eat? It's dead.

Regards from your steak-munching chum,
Topper.

ScumLord

kraggy wrote: »

Yeah but chimps eat mainly leaves and fruit. Only a small fraction of their diet is meat compared to ours is meat.

That's what I was saying. Chimps have big veg guts whereas we have inbetweeny guts.

Chimps also show they're most human like behavior when hunting and eating meat. Meat is probably the biggest political tool in Chimp society.

m@cc@

ScumLord wrote: »

Chimps also show they're most human like behavior when hunting and eating meat. Meat is probably the biggest political tool in Chimp society.

Ah, and Brian Cowen is the biggest political tool in human society.

ScumLord

m@cc@ wrote: »

Ah, and Brian Cowen is the biggest political tool in human society.

Yes but he probably tastes like cigarette butts and grits.

conorhal

OutlawPete wrote: »

You'll that a lot of what people crave meat for is from the addiction of cooked meats.

Someone that craves meat will snap a breast of chicken out of your hands and suck the bones dry, finger licking good.

Would that same person the same sized portion of raw chicken and feel the same satisfaction?

Yet, if it was the protein that was satisfying, both ways should satisfy similarly as they contain the same level of Amino Acids.

That simply not accurate.
Cooked foods have a 20 to 30% higher energy value to the body because they are more easily digested and require less energy to digest. And that's why they taste better also (though I'm not adverse to a nice rare piece of fillet steak) because that which 'tastes good' is not down to personal preference but rather ‘yummy’ is something hardwired in onto out taste buds by our evolutionary path because high energy foods tasting good has an evolutionary advantage to our species. Highly calorific (crispy bacon…mmmmm) = tasty, poor nutritional value (celery.. bleaaach) = foul.
In our society we are constantly surrounded by mass quantities of food, and as a result we have come to view food in ideological terms, which I think is a fallacy.
Vegetarianism is a slap in the face to Darwin IMHO (joking HO that is). We are what we are today thanks to meat! The day we put down the greens and sampled some meat was the day that we started on our evolutionary journey. It meant that we could dispense with spending ten hours a day grazing like our great ape cousins to concentrate on other things, like hunting, which required skilled tool builders with bigger brains etc. The day one of out smart well armed hunters dropped some valuable high energy meat into a fire we made another leap, we'd learned to process food to enhance its nutritional value. Then we herded it, which allowed for a higher population concentration and a society. Man, all the crazy things that we owe meat, the stuff should get more respect.

In my opinion food is not, and should not be seen as an ideology. When food becomes ideology, of course you get ideological extremes, vegans for example. Vegans are just plain crazy. A pregnant vegans needs to take a multitude of supplements to ensure that their child is not born learning impaired (and can be left permanently mentally disabled if they continue on a vegan diet if they don’t receive anti natal ) Such a fact should cause a pause for thought, it certainly can't be called a healthy diet that's for sure if it's counter productive to the survival to the next generation.

OutlawPete

conorhal wrote: »

That simply not accurate.

It wasn't posted to be "accurate", it was a very loose statement.

conorhal wrote: »

Cooked foods have a 20 to 30% higher energy value to the body because they are more easily digested and require less energy to digest.

Nonsense.

Cooked meat is NOT easier to digest, it may be easier to chew, that is all.

HCL and pancreatic enzymes break down proteins and denatured / cooked protein is far more troublesome for the body to break down that raw protiens.

Granted, there some who say it is but they be wrong.

Cooking / denaturing protein creates toxins.

Many of these toxins have been linked to cancer.

Have you ever seen people who eat well done steak?

Do you really think that gives the body more energy and that it is easier to digest?

El_Dangeroso

OutlawPete wrote: »

Interestingly, there is actually a Raw Vegan Tribe still living ..

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/life/2005/01/07/stories/2005010700080200.htm

Em, they're not vegan.

The group described in the article are the Brokpas that live in an isolated part of Kashmir. If you want a more indepth and impartial look at the group this article is good. http://www.krepublishers.com/02-Journals/S-EM/EM-02-0-000-08-Web/EM-02-2-000-08-Abst-PDF/EM-02-2-077-08-099-Bhasin-V/EM-02-2-077-08-099-Bhasin-V-Tt.pdf

At some places, houses are side by side, at other places individual houses are in the middle of the fields. Every house has a small garden in which onions, tomatoes, turnips, large radishes, peas and some potatoes are grown.

They also have houses in the higher valley pastures at Dah-Drouk where they graze their animals and cultivate their summer crops.

The traditional Brokpa diet based on locally grown foods such as barley and hardy wheat prepared most often as tsampa/sattu (roasted flour). It takes in different ways. Other important foods include potatoes, radishes, turnips, and Gur- Gur Cha, a brewed tea made of black tea, butter and salt. Dairy and poultry sources are out of menu because of religious taboos. Brok-pa takes three meals a day; Chin-nana (Breakfast); Beh (Lunch) and Ganzang (Dinner). Brokpa vary with respect to the amount of meat (mainly mutton) that they eat. Household’s economic position decides the consumption of meat. It is only during festivals and rituals all have greater access to mutton.

They're not even that healthy..

They suffer host of diseases, including rheumatism, intestinal worms, cataracts, goiter, trachoma, pneumonia, dysentery and skin diseases.

Seems like a pretty unprocessed healthy diet overall with a wide range of vegetables, fruits and walnuts. Not vegan or a idealist primitive garden of eden, it's a hard life living in places likle that. I prefer more of the modern medicine myself. The writer of the hindu business article probably visited while livestock were still being grazed up on high pastures before winter started and so did not see any.

OutlawPete

Temple_Grandin wrote: »

Em, they're not vegan.

I don't see anything in that article to suggest they consume animals to any great degree.

Brokpa of Dah, do not purchase food from outside, as here
are no shops in and around the village. Brokpa grow their staple food, vegetables and fruits.

The traditional Brokpa diet based on locally
grown foods such as barley and hardy wheat
prepared most often as tsampa/sattu (roasted
flour). It takes in different ways.

Other important foods include potatoes, radishes, turnips, and Gur-
Gur Cha, a brewed tea made of black tea, butter
and salt.

Dairy and poultry sources are out of menu
because of religious taboos. Brok-pa takes three
meals a day; Chin-nana (Breakfast); Beh
(Lunch) and Ganzang (Dinner).

Brokpa vary with respect to the amount of meat (mainly mutton) that
they eat. Household’s economic position decides
the consumption of meat.

It is only during festivals
and rituals all have greater access to mutton.

There is suggestion that they consume Mutton, but that is not expanded on.

I have read a few reports on them being Vegan now.

conorhal

OutlawPete wrote: »

Cooked meat is NOT easier to digest, it may be easier to chew, that is all.
HCL and pancreatic enzymes break down proteins and denatured / cooked protein is far more troublesome for the body to break down that raw protiens.
Granted, there some who say it is but they be wrong.

Yes, those 'wrong' people are called scientists. Meat specifically has a much higher energy value when cooked, veg, less so, very much less so if over cooked, but if meat and veg are cooked well, the breakdown of the cellular walls makes both more digestible.

Cooking / denaturing protein creates toxins.[/COLOR]
Many of these toxins have been linked to cancer.

Mass consumption of charred or smoke cured meats MAY increase the risk of cancer, people that eat everything in moderation as part of a sensible diet won't sufferer any averse effects while accruing all of the benefits.

Have you ever seen people who eat well done steak?

I've no idea what that has to do with the price of beef (so to speak)?

Do you really think that gives the body more energy and that it is easier to digest?

Yes, even Gandhi tucked in to a bit of meat when faced with the British weather while touring the 'empire' and he began to feel poorly.

El_Dangeroso

OutlawPete wrote: »

I don't see anything in that article to suggest they consume animals to any great degree.

There is suggestion that they consume Mutton, but that is not expanded on.

I have read a few reports on them being Vegan now.

Ehh, but they're not vegan, they eat mutton, by the looks of it as much as they can afford. Doesn't matter if they eat only a little, they still eat it. They also eat clarified butter, which for some reason doesn't contravene the taboo on dairy.

And as I mentioned before, they're not that healthy either, they live a tough life in a very unforgiving place.

OutlawPete

conorhal wrote: »

Yes, even Gandhi tucked in to a bit of meat when faced with the British weather while touring the 'empire' and he began to feel poorly.

So, I'm having a burger later, what does that prove.

Are you trying to say that the body can digest cooked steak 'easier' than 'Beef Carpaccio'?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-5PwR6PCyk

The body produces enzymes to break down RAW protein.

The more food is cooked, the less impact these enzymes have of breaking the proteins down to their amino acids.

tolosenc

http://www.vostok.es/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/carnivore-support-group.jpg

Zillah

OutlawPete wrote: »

The body produces enzymes to break down RAW protein.

The more food is cooked, the less impact these enzymes have of breaking the proteins down to their amino acids.

No one is saying the body cannot process raw meat. What we're saying is that when the body digests food it has to invest energy in the elaborate biochemical process that is digestion. Most foods produce more calories than the body has to burn to digest them (there are exceptions, celery is one). Cooking food begins the process of breaking it down so that the body has to invest less energy in the process, for a net calorie gain.