€100 euro DART fine - Train Early

dario28

Occasionally get the 7:27 Train from Portmarnock to Tara and this morning it was early , ended up about 20 people sprinting for the train. Ticket machines and the pay booth had queues so I got on the train with the intention of paying before I left the station in Tara - I have done this before, when the station is closed and the machine wont take the note, so didnt think it would be a problem.

Got to Tara and had the fiver out walked straight up to the guy and said what I wrote above, he goes grand and starts writing , then he asks for ID as he is giving me a 100 euro fine for fare evasion...I told him I wasnt trying to evade the fare , showed him some old tickets but he was having none of it...

Is there any point appealing , on the basis that the train was early, I didnt try and leave the station without paying and that they regularly accept money at the other end.

100 euros is alot of money for not evading

tbaymusicman

I wouldn't take that i would appeal it!!

dario28

tbaymusicman wrote: »

I wouldn't take that i would appeal it!!

I deffo will - would accept it if i was stung trying to use an old ticket or sneak out , but I feel I was genuine enough

paulm17781

dario28 wrote: »

I have done this before, when the station is closed and the machine wont take the note,

In those circumstances, you had no other means to buy a ticket. In this case, you chose not to buy a ticket. Pay the fine, legally, you have fare evaded.

dario28

paulm17781 wrote: »

In those circumstances, you had no other means to buy a ticket. In this case, you chose not to buy a ticket. Pay the fine, legally, you have fare evaded.

I love these unreasonable reponses, get into the real world will ya..

evasion in this case is trying to leave the station with out paying the fare , walking up to someone with a fiver out is not evading !

He could have done me for trespassing - not evading

Anyway- I know some people so hope they can get it quashed

TC cork

don't fancy your chances of success but worth a try

highnc

dario28 wrote: »

...get into the real world will ya..
...
Anyway- I know some people so hope they can get it quashed

sounds like you need to get into the real world! pay the fine and move on - there's been many threads before on this with the same pathetic arguments and varied excuses - i'm sure they've heard them all!!

LadyE

This happened to me a couple of years ago, except that I had to use the gate on the other side of the platform for my buggy. I paid on the otherside every single day, but this one day a different guy wouldnt accept my monoey and gave me a fine.

I called them up to appeal, they said tough. So I waited for my summons.

In court it was thrown out because I had offered to pay before leaving the station.

Mr. Presentable

OP, you are required to have a ticket before boarding. There is an exemption if the offices are closed in you station of departure, but there were tickets available in your case so it doesn't apply to you.

Cookie_Monster

dario28 wrote: »

100 euros is alot of money for not evading

but you did try and evade. there was no good reason not to pay at the station you were boarding. There being a queue there is not reason enough to not bother paying.

dario28

nipplenuts wrote: »

(20 people ahead of you for a ticket).

Nah never said that.

dario28

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

but you did try and evade. there was no good reason not to pay at the station you were boarding. There being a queue there is not reason enough to not bother paying.

Read it properly ---train was 2mins early

Cookie_Monster

dario28 wrote: »

Read it properly ---train was 2mins early

what has that got to do with anything? its not like there is only one DART a day or anything, so you would have had to wait 10-15 mins for the next.

dario28

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what has that got to do with anything?

Not getting into one of these stupid boards arguments.....I'll post my outcome of appeal or what happens

consultech

dario28 wrote: »

I love these unreasonable reponses, get into the real world will ya..

evasion in this case is trying to leave the station with out paying the fare , walking up to someone with a fiver out is not evading !

He could have done me for trespassing - not evading

Anyway- I know some people so hope they can get it quashed

You're not the first, you won't be the last. Morality aside; You made a rookie mistake in giving your name. In that instance you apologise for having no ID, tell them to send the fine to Joe Bloggs at 123 Fake St, sign 'er off and be on your way. You'll have an entire train journey to relocate any identifying cards etc from your wallet in future.

In the "real world", no-one wants to hear your excuses, because your account could well be disingenuous as much as it could be genuine. The bylaws are there for these reasons. IR suggest you get to your departure station in plenty of time, or wait for the next train if you don't have a ticket in time for departure.

I would call in the influence of whatever people you know because getting IR to give up €100 you now owe them for breaking their bylaws is fairly unlikely. The most pertinent thing to do would've been to get the details of all the other people who suffered a similar injustice while they were getting their fines (You didn't metion how those "20" people got on when they got to Tara) for the purpose of making a complaint about the train en-mass.

...and evading can be defined as skirting your responsibilities, which in this case was making sure you had a valid ticket for travel, irresepective of whatever mitigating circumstances you're complaining about.

You have my sympathy to an extent, but turning up 5 minutes early in the morning isn't that hard to do either.

tipperaryboy

You dont actually have to pay the fine i doubt they are going to come chasing after you.

starfish12

its new policy with irish rail...logic being that if the guy wasnt in the station when u arrived in town that you wouldnt queue up at a ticket counter to buy a ticket, you'd head off & therefore have evaded the fare....last week 6 people in the carriage i was on on the manooth line were given the same fine, all of whom said that they were going to pay at the end as queue was too long and they'd have missed the train, and inspectors were having none of it, advised people who showed them other tickets etc. to buy a weekly/monthly one (which doesnt suit alot of people!) however it seems to me they're perfectly within their rights to enforce the fine..its pretty simple, no ticket = fare evasion

Ste.phen

If the queue in tesco is too long do you just walk out and tell them you'll pay when you feel like it?
Like someone else said, your mistake was giving them your real name, but it's not too likely you'll need to pay it. live and learn!

Run_to_da_hills

If you had a pre paid "smart card" you wouldn't have all this trouble.

Cookie_Monster

petethebrick wrote: »

blah blah blah ****in tool

right... reported anyway.

I've missed a number of trains queueing for tickets, I just live with it like 99% of other people. If it was an Intercity I'd turn up earlier or take a chance as the next one wouldn't be for 2-3 hours but it was a DART and they are every 15 mins,less at rush hour, no reason not to wait like everyone else.

cson

consultech wrote: »

You're not the first, you won't be the last. Morality aside; You made a rookie mistake in giving your name. In that instance you apologise for having no ID, tell them to send the fine to Joe Bloggs at 123 Fake St, sign 'er off and be on your way. You'll have an entire train journey to relocate any identifying cards etc from your wallet in future.

I've often wondered what the craic is with this; whats to stop me saying I'm Joe Bloggs and I don't have my wallet on me etc etc thus no ID to prove I am Joe Bloggs. A variation of this would be if they found ID on you to give a fictitious address. Surely IR and Veolia have a better method than relying on the evader providing them with contact details? I'm not condoning fare evasion here btw; but it does irk me when I see selective fines being given out and others told simply to exit the train/luas [On a Luas into Stephens Green I saw a guy in a suit get a fine while some skangers were told to simply get off.]

paulm17781

dario28 wrote: »

I love these unreasonable reponses, get into the real world will ya..

Hmmm, I'm quoting the law here, perhaps you should get into the real world. :rolleyes:

dario28 wrote: »

evasion in this case is trying to leave the station with out paying the fare , walking up to someone with a fiver out is not evading !

He could have done me for trespassing - not evading

Anyway- I know some people so hope they can get it quashed

Now, the law is that you must have a ticket before getting on the train unless the station is closed, I didn't write this law. According to the law, you fare evaded. When you approached to pay, you had already gotten on the train, illegally. I'm sorry if this doesn't suit you but I didn't create this rule. It is the law.

techdiver

cson wrote: »

I've often wondered what the craic is with this; whats to stop me saying I'm Joe Bloggs and I don't have my wallet on me etc etc thus no ID to prove I am Joe Bloggs. A variation of this would be if they found ID on you to give a fictitious address. Surely IR and Veolia have a better method than relying on the evader providing them with contact details? I'm not condoning fare evasion here btw; but it does irk me when I see selective fines being given out and others told simply to exit the train/luas [On a Luas into Stephens Green I saw a guy in a suit get a fine while some skangers were told to simply get off.]

Yea, skangers regularly get away with it. That really annoys me.

In the scenario where they look for ID always give a fake name and say you have no ID. They have no legal right to search you so don't let them. If skangers who never bother paying and spend the journey annoying and harassing other passengers get away with it, I don't see why some one who pays 99.99% of the time and who has one bad day shouldn't.

bullpost

I think part of the problem lies with IR.
They do operate a de facto policy of accepting fares from ticketless commuters at times and I would imagine that in law this weakens any case for prosecution they have.
I'd say it should be the case that if you don't have a ticket and are caught you will be issued with a fine but that there is a reasonable process of appeal for those acting in good faith like the OP.

highnc

dario28 wrote: »

Not getting into one of these stupid boards arguments.....I'll post my outcome of appeal or what happens

don't bother...we all know the outcome. it's as inevitable as night follows day!!

paulm17781

bullpost wrote: »

I think part of the problem lies with IR.
They do operate a de facto policy of accepting fares from ticketless commuters at times and I would imagine that in law this weakens any case for prosecution they have.
I'd say it should be the case that if you don't have a ticket and are caught you will be issued with a fine but that there is a reasonable process of appeal for those acting in good faith like the OP.

Yeah, they used to accept when people paid at the other end then suddenly (about 4 - 5 years ago) they started to enforce it without notice. Their response was "it has always been fare evading". However they used to allow it!

techdiver

paulm17781 wrote: »

Yeah, they used to accept when people paid at the other end then suddenly (about 4 - 5 years ago) they started to enforce it without notice. Their response was "it has always been fare evading". However they used to allow it!

Also provide better/faster/more reliable ticket machines. Regularly I go to the station and half the machines don't work and the bloody machines are dirt slow too. If you put coins in to fast it can't deal with it and just spits them out at you.

cson

bullpost wrote: »

I think part of the problem lies with IR.

And Veolia aren't saints either. As I've outlined the discriminatory policy they apply to fining people is hugely annoying in my mind.

Cookie_Monster

How can you even get on a platform without a ticket with jumping over the barriers, or do some stations not have these? I can't say I've ever been at a station without them.

MysticalSoul

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

How can you even get on a platform without a ticket with jumping over the barriers, or do some stations not have these? I can't say I've ever been at a station without them.

No barriers at Portmarnock station.

OP - even if the train arrived early, you should still allow ample time to get a ticket. You didn't state whether the train actually left early though. The timetable times are the departure times, and not the arrival times, and most trains are at the platforms for at least 1 minute, more if a number of people are getting on/off the train.

In other countries, people just accept the fine, as they realise they should have had a valid ticket. A neighbour of mine tried to purchase a ticket at the machine one day, when there was no one in the office. All she had was a €50 note, and the machine would not accept it, as the machines are not able to take notes over €20. She explained the situation when she got to the other side, and she was fined the €50, as that was what the fine was then. She was annoyed, but accepted it.

DingChavez

paulm17781 wrote: »

It is the law.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6cyDsuNx_U

@OP
When you knew you broke the rules you should have just tried to avoid it. If someone walked up to you and gave you a fiver when they should owe you 100 would you let them away with it? They're not being unreasonable here.

Mr. Presentable

MysticalSoul wrote: »

In other countries, people just accept the fine, as they realise they should have had a valid ticket. A neighbour of mine tried to purchase a ticket at the machine one day, when there was no one in the office. All she had was a €50 note, and the machine would not accept it, as the machines are not able to take notes over €20. She explained the situation when she got to the other side, and she was fined the €50, as that was what the fine was then. She was annoyed, but accepted it.

This would be normal in Italy, for example, where the machines are restricted to €4.00 change per transaction. This is intended to keep the machine running as long as possible without cashing out.

P_1

Since when is the fine €100, I thought it was €50?

MysticalSoul

pithater1 wrote: »

Since when is the fine €100, I thought it was €50?

It changed recently - within the last month or so I believe.

Cookie_Monster

MysticalSoul wrote: »

It changed recently - within the last month or so I believe.

In line with deflation you know

angel01

dario28 wrote: »

Occasionally get the 7:27 Train from Portmarnock to Tara and this morning it was early , ended up about 20 people sprinting for the train. Ticket machines and the pay booth had queues so I got on the train with the intention of paying before I left the station in Tara - I have done this before, when the station is closed and the machine wont take the note, so didnt think it would be a problem.

Got to Tara and had the fiver out walked straight up to the guy and said what I wrote above, he goes grand and starts writing , then he asks for ID as he is giving me a 100 euro fine for fare evasion...I told him I wasnt trying to evade the fare , showed him some old tickets but he was having none of it...

Is there any point appealing , on the basis that the train was early, I didnt try and leave the station without paying and that they regularly accept money at the other end.

100 euros is alot of money for not evading

You have fare evaded, you get a later train and pay for your ticket, threads like this make me sick.

Calina

petethebrick is currently on holiday from this board.

please play nice the rest of you - it's much better all round.

paulm17781

angel01 wrote: »

You have fare evaded, you get a later train and pay for your ticket, threads like this make me sick.

Yes, but the OP came here for a cuddle and advice on how to get away with it. While I had sympathy for him, his answer to my post proves he's not looking for facts, just wants to know how to avoid it.

murphaph

It's even more merciless in Germany OP. I know people who have monthly passes with their name on them aho have been fined when they left their pass in their other pocket. They don't accept ANY excuses and the enforcement is MUCH better than lax IE. I was checked just this morning on the underground...ALWAYS undercover and never any escape. They board in pairs, plain clothed, totally unremarkable looking, one at each end of the carriage and wait until the doors close then produce their ID and work through the carriage towards each other. Anyone who tries to pass the inspector will be challenged for a ticket. People don't even try to escape. As the carrying of ID is (basically) compulsory in Germany, it is highly suspicious if someone denies having ID on them and the police will be called (and will turn up). When penalty fares are issued they are done so in a matter of a minute or so, all done electronically with the offender's ID being logged as evidence.

It is reasonably common to see about 0 or 1 person(s) per full carriage caught during an inspection IME. Quite low rates of evasion I believe, but that's because people know an inspection is likely and never argue the toss when caught, they just accept that they either screwed up (left ticket at home) or got caught red handed. People (even those who are caught) seem to understand that the system has to be pretty inflexible to provide a real deterrent. The oul nod and wink just doesn't cut it here, nor should it in Ireland.

KC61

paulm17781 wrote: »

Yeah, they used to accept when people paid at the other end then suddenly (about 4 - 5 years ago) they started to enforce it without notice. Their response was "it has always been fare evading". However they used to allow it!

It wasn't quite "without notice" - there were posters put up in every station and on the trains advising customers of the rules.

Ham'nd'egger

techdiver wrote: »

In the scenario where they look for ID always give a fake name and say you have no ID. They have no legal right to search you so don't let them. If skangers who never bother paying and spend the journey annoying and harassing other passengers get away with it, I don't see why some one who pays 99.99% of the time and who has one bad day shouldn't.

They actually do have the legal right to detain you if you travel without a valid ticket, and with reasonable force if need be; I believe it's in the 1961 Transport Act and anybody in charge of a Public Service Vehicle is covered for same; this also includes bus and taxi drivers.

They also have the right to ask for proof of ID if they are issuing you with a fine and they can hold you back as long as is needed to confirm your details.

paulm17781

KC61 wrote: »

It wasn't quite "without notice" - there were posters put up in every station and on the trains advising customers of the rules.

These have been around as long as I can remember. It still used to be common practice to allow people pay at the other end. Then suddenly, they started to enforce it.

I'm not against the enforcement, I just see why people are shocked when it happens.

JHMEG

angel01 wrote: »

You have fare evaded, you get a later train and pay for your ticket, threads like this make me sick.

Tut tut. It's people like the OP and the bankers that have this country in the mess it's in.

dowlingm

You can't take a mars bar out of a shop and declare you'll pay later or jump on a plane because the line up at security might make you miss your flight. OP, you might be one of the few who did this in good faith but there are people trying to loot the system at a time when it can't be afforded, which is why there was an evasion blitz on the Midleton line.

100 euros is a lot of money for not evading for not getting out of bed in time to line up in time.

JHMEG

dowlingm wrote: »

100 euros is a lot of money for not evading for not getting out of bed in time to line up in time.

I think he was up in time, but the train was early. Has happened to me a couple of times aswell, but I didn't get fined in Connolly when I got off.

Cookie_Monster

JHMEG wrote: »

I think he was up in time, but the train was early. Has happened to me a couple of times aswell, but I didn't get fined in Connolly when I got off.

2 mins early, hardly a big deal tbh.

consultech

JHMEG wrote: »

I think he was up in time, but the train was early. Has happened to me a couple of times aswell, but I didn't get fined in Connolly when I got off.

How early could the train have been, given OP still caught it? Maybe 1-2 mins earlier than usual? I don't accept that the train left the station much earlier than usual.

Rule of thumb: Tryin to time public transportation for a smooth station arrival/walk-on will invariably get you bitten on your arse. Get up 5 mins earlier, end of.

BenShermin

What is the official line with Broombridge, given that there's no way to buy a ticket there can the staff fine me in Connolly if I've arrived from Broombridge ticketless?

I've every sympathy with the OP, the by-laws only come into force when it suits IÉ. You wouldn't see them confronting a gang of youths or a drug abuser, until we have a situation where EVERYONE is fined for not having a ticket there's absolutely no point in these fines:mad:!!

It seems that the burely security men hired by the transport companies in Ireland are only there to fine people who will accept the fine and not scum bags who won't accept it. It's a ****ing joke:mad:!!

JHMEG

consultech wrote: »

Get up 5 mins earlier, end of.

Get up perpetually earlier in case the train driver's watch is fast once a year? Get real!

Who has never had a train arrive early on them only to end up bursting a blood vessel running for it, esp if it's departing from a far platform that requires running across the foot bridge.

JHMEG

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

2 mins early, hardly a big deal tbh.

4 mins early, in case the train is 2 mins early.

lord lucan

BenShermin wrote: »

What is the official line with Broombridge, given that there's no way to buy a ticket there can the staff fine me in Connolly if I've arrived from Broombridge ticketless?

I've every sympathy with the OP, the by-laws only come into force when it suits IÉ. You wouldn't see them confronting a gang of youths or a drug abuser, until we have a situation where EVERYONE is fined for not having a ticket there's absolutely no point in these fines:mad:!!

It seems that the burely security men hired by the transport companies in Ireland are only there to fine people who will accept the fine and not scum bags who won't accept it. It's a ****ing joke:mad:!!

OP should've waited at Tara st. for a Maynooth line service to arrive and then went to the barrier saying he got on at Broombridge.:):)