Why is being fat/obese socially acceptable?

Pace2008

Penny Dreadful wrote: »

Me too but I think that was more down to the raw veg rather than having a healthy/ normal lunch. Now that I look back I realise how lucky I was really. My dad grew almost everything that we ate, potatos, tomatos, carrots, broccoli, turnips, cabbage, lettuce, apples, plums, scallions, peas, onions, beetroot, strawberries, raspberries, gooseberries were all grown at home. My uncle had a dairy farm and so we got milk fresh from there every morning and when he slaughtered cows and sheep and lambs he gave my mum (each of his sisters really) a lot of meat.
We knew the source of everything we ate and knew that the animals were fed well and cared for and the food my dad grew wasn't sprayed with chemicals and was as fresh as could be. My mum was a stay at home mum for whom the norm was cooking dinners not going to the chipper.

You seem to be attributing a lot to the homegrown nature of your food when “chemicals” (assuming you mean pesticides and fertilizers) do not contribute to weight-gain in any way. The macronutrients are essentially the same in mass-farmed supermarket fare and so-called organic produce, and this is what’s relevant when you’re talking about the issue of obesity.

me_right_one

techdiver wrote: »

As the title says.

Society makes a big deal of advertising the dangers of smoking and alcohol abuse.

With the smoking ban and higher taxes on tobacco and alcohol, will it ever become acceptable to come out and say to someone who is obese that they are in fact fat and need to loose weight? I have read many articles etc that claim that obesity is set to move to top spot in the scale of biggest risk to health and the leading cause of death.

It is acceptable to tell some one to cut down on the smoking and drinking but not the eating....

Any thoughts?

If you're an alcoholic, the doctor will bar you from drinking, put you into rehab, and you would get sick-time off work if you're lucky enough to have job that will pay it. IMO it should be the same with food if you're obese.

Penny Dreadful

Pace2008 wrote: »

You seem to be attributing a lot to the homegrown nature of your food when “chemicals” (assuming you mean pesticides and fertilizers) do not contribute to weight-gain in any way. The macronutrients are essentially the same in mass-farmed supermarket fare and so-called organic produce, and this is what’s relevant when you’re talking about the issue of obesity.

I was just referring to the fact that the food was good food in that we knew its history. I wasn't getting at the fact that it was responsible for the fact that I and my siblings weren't fat.

Big Nasty

MCMLXXV wrote: »

You call that eating healthy! :eek::eek::eek:

Pace2008 wrote: »

Brown rice and lean chicken are very healthy. Bodybuilding food.

It was a joke!;)

tc2010

grindelwald wrote: »

i tried starving myself and that didnt wotk so i gave up.

worst thing you can ever do if you want to lose weight. your body simply holds on to what it has because it thinks your never gonna feed it again

eat healthy and do lots of high intensity training.

strobe

grindelwald wrote: »

Just to say. i was 9 stone 10 pound (healthy weight) i fell pregnant with my 3rd baby, i put on 2 and half stone, he weighed in at 9lb at 1 week early. i never lost one ounce after i had him. i tried starving myself and that didnt wotk so i gave up. I had to put the weight on since i pregnant thinking i would loose it like i did with my other 2.

Should have exercised and eaten healthily instead of starving yourself.

drkpower

prinz wrote: »

Kids doing their homework shouldn't be seen as some sort of significant achievement tbh.:rolleyes:.

Of course not; nor did i say it was. But allowing them to watch 1/2 hour TV afterwards is not a significant reward. Getting 80% in a Christmas exam is a significant achievement and warrants a 'treat' higher up on the scale like McDonalds.

prinz wrote: »

You are both correct. There is nothing wrong in treating your kids occasionally but treating them as some sort of a reward system/pick me up is just conditioning behaviour, no different to giving a puppy a treat.

So, it ok to 'treat'. But dont treat as a reward?
You might explain 'conditioning behaviour', and why it is bad; if a kid is thought the value of hard work and knows that certain things he likes follow from hard work, what is the problem in that?

Penny Dreadful

drkpower wrote: »

Of course not; nor did i say it was. But allowing them to watch 1/2 hour TV afterwards is not a significant reward. Getting 80% in a Christmas exam is a significant achievement and warrants a 'treat' higher up on the scale like McDonalds.



So, it ok to 'treat'. But dont treat as a reward?
You might explain 'conditioning behaviour', and why it is bad; if a kid is thought the value of hard work and knows that certain things he likes follow from hard work, what is the problem in that?

Maybe what prinz is getting at is the fact that sometimes the achievement should be seen as reward enough in itself. My parents never ever rewarded us for doing well in exams or school. We were praised when we did well no doubt about it and we were taught to take pleasure in our accomplishments but we didn't get treats or presents for getting 80% in an exam or things like that.

strobe

Penny Dreadful wrote: »

Maybe what prinz is getting at is the fact that sometimes the achievement should be seen as reward enough in itself. My parents never ever rewarded us for doing well in exams or school. We were praised when we did well no doubt about it and we were taught to take pleasure in our accomplishments but we didn't get treats or presents for getting 80% in an exam or things like that.

Did the praise make you feel good? That was the treat/reward...... "I love you, you love me. We're a happy family. With a great big hug...."

Penny Dreadful

strobe wrote: »

Did the praise make you feel good? That was the reward...... "I love you, you love me. We're a happy family...."

Ok so yes, the praise was a reward system and I liked the fact that my parents were proud of my achievement. However, they didn't reward us with monetary things such as gifts or takeaways and so that thought process didn't become something I carried over into my adult life. Praise doesn't put your health at risk either.

Pace2008

drkpower wrote: »

You might explain 'conditioning behaviour', and why it is bad; if a kid is thought the value of hard work and knows that certain things he likes follow from hard work, what is the problem in that?

It's when eating junk food becomes intrinsically linked with happy times and feeling good that it starts to be a problem.

drkpower

Penny Dreadful wrote: »

Occasional is fine but given the profits McDonalds et al show on a regular basis there is nothing occasional about it on the larger scale. I didn't say parents who do this are bad parents, I just think that teaching kids that McDonalds is a reward isn't a good idea and because you learn this in childhood you carry it over into your adult life. You can reward by going to the zoo, going to the cinema, horse riding for example........all things that aren't the norm and are therefore a treat for the child.

Agreed. But the fact that parents give excessive treats for minor achievements doesnt make a properly used 'treat' system bad all of a sudden.

As for rewarding with the zoo/cinema, absolutely, promoting healthy treats is the ideal; but lets not be silly here; kids and adults and OAPs all like a little bit of 'badness' now and then, as long as its in moderation, there is nothing wrtong with it. But there is something wrong in preaching a 'prohibitionist' line that you should never have McDonalds, or an icecream cone, or anything else that is less than good for you. That is more likely to result in harm than advocating a 'healthy' attitude to 'bad' food.

drkpower

Penny Dreadful wrote: »

Maybe what prinz is getting at is the fact that sometimes the achievement should be seen as reward enough in itself. My parents never ever rewarded us for doing well in exams or school. We were praised when we did well no doubt about it and we were taught to take pleasure in our accomplishments but we didn't get treats or presents for getting 80% in an exam or things like that.

That's wonderful.

But you/Prinz seem to be suggesting that 'treats' as 'rewards' are a bad idea, or inappropriate. Simply because you were brought up with a differenet system, perhaps even a better system, does not mean that the 'treat/reward system is bad.

Pace2008 wrote: »

It's when eating junk food becomes intrinsically linked with happy times and feeling good that it starts to be a problem.

What about when it becomes intrinsically linked to hard work and achievement? Is that a good thing?

Penny Dreadful

drkpower wrote: »

Agreed. But the fact that parents give excessive treats for minor achievements doesnt make a properly used 'treat' system bad all of a sudden.

As for rewarding with the zoo/cinema, absolutely, promoting healthy treats is the ideal; but lets not be silly here; kids and adults and OAPs all like a little bit of 'badness' now and then, as long as its in moderation, there is nothing wrtong with it. But there is something wrong in preaching a 'prohibitionist' line that you should never have McDonalds, or an icecream cone, or anything else that is less than good for you. That is more likely to result in harm than advocating a 'healthy' attitude to 'bad' food.

A little bit of what is bad for you can be all too nice, a little bit. However, there seems to be an alarming increase in the amount of people who see this as the norm. The Domino's franchise in Tallaght is the most profitable in the world!

strobe

Penny Dreadful wrote: »

Ok so yes, the praise was a reward system and I liked the fact that my parents were proud of my achievement. However, they didn't reward us with monetary things such as gifts or takeaways and so that thought process didn't become something I carried over into my adult life. Praise doesn't put your health at risk either.

I don't know you, maybe it did carry over. Maybe you have become total door mat and people pleaser and the person in the office that everyone hates because you totally lick your bosses ass hoping he'll tell you what a good job you have done. Or maybe you are none of those things, it's hard to tell because, you know, everyone is an individual. Occasionally my parents would buy me a toy or take me and my brother to the park if we did something admirable, or sometimes to the cinema and the McDonalds afterwards. We didn't become vacuous materially obsessed monsters, or perpetually fat adults that couldn't help eating tubs of mayonaise for dinner. I think you are reading way too much into giving a child a treat in order to reward them for doing something good.

I do think those treats shouldn't exist exclusively of unhealthy food obviously. But if a kid likes McD's or say, ice-cream and jelly, then the odd time is no harm.

Penny Dreadful

strobe wrote: »

I don't know you, maybe it did carry over. Maybe you have become total door mat and people pleaser and the person in the office that everyone hates because you totally lick your bosses ass hoping he'll tell you what a good job you have done. Or maybe you are none of those things, it's hard to tell because, you know, everyone is an individual. Occasionally my parents would buy me a toy or take me and my brother to the park if we did something admirable. We didn't become vacuous materially obsessed monsters. I think you are reading way too much into giving a child a treat in order to reward them for doing something good.

But I do think those treats shouldn't exist exclusively of unhealthy food obviously. But if a kid likes McD'd then the odd time is no harm.

Of course we carry stuff over from how we were brought up into our adult lives. Myself and all of my siblings are if anything massive over achievers who are very competitive most of all with ourselves. This has its drawbacks big time. I completed my MSc about 18 months ago and was 3 marks away from a 1st, that means I got a bloody good 2:1 but all I saw was how close I was to the 1st............I know thats crazy.
I'm not trying to say that my upbringing was perfect and we are all products of our parents and how they chose to parent us. One thing that I am glad they did for us all though, was give us a taste for good quality healthy food, they educated us about food, taught us how to cook for ourselves and how to enjoy food and care for our bodies. Given the amount of fat and obsese children that are around today it seems that many parents aren't doing this and it is to the detiment of their children's health.

prinz

drkpower wrote: »

So, it ok to 'treat'. But dont treat as a reward?

For the most part yes. It's fine to reward kids now and again but it shouldn't become recurrent behaviour.

drkpower wrote: »

You might explain 'conditioning behaviour', and why it is bad;

It's building a subconcious link between behaviour and reward. If you do x, you will get y. Kids come to automatically assume y follows x unconditionally. Instead of a kid learning what is normal and appropriate behaviour as normal and appropriate - they come to see normal and appropriate behaviour as something that should be rewarded. So often see parents promising kids things in return for behaviour that should be a given. See Supernanny for a perfect example you have one kid beating the lard out of a sibling, and instead of teaching them that it's wrong, you teach them if they refrain from doing it they get a prize, like refraining from kicking the daylights out of someone is an achievement in itself.

drkpower wrote: »

...if a kid is thought the value of hard work and knows that certain things he likes follow from hard work, what is the problem in that?

Depends on what follows tbh. If it is in the realm of instant gratification then I don't think that is a good thing (food, gifts, presents etc). Kids need to be taught that many people work very hard and don't get the rewards.

drkpower

Penny Dreadful wrote: »

I completed my MSc about 18 months ago and was 3 marks away from a 1st, that means I got a bloody good 2:1 but all I saw was how close I was to the 1st............I know thats crazy.

Perhaps if your parents had given you a Big Mac for doing well in exams as a kid, you would be striving to achieve a little bit more than a bloody MSc.....:rolleyes:

Parents are different; kids are different. Telling people that they are wrong to use a balanced treat/reward system because your parents did it differrently, or because bad parents abuse a treat/reward system, is bad advice.

Resi12

People who aren't obese and are complaining about obese people are just looking for something to complain about, I mean I can see why smoking (second hand smoke) and drinking (glorified in the media as cause of numerous bad incidents) can prompt people to vent but somebody else's weight?

Also I would like to say being overweight isn't usually laziness, I know I am not overweight by being lazy, it's tied into emotions, deeply tied and I wish it were as easy as just going on a diet and losing the weight but for me it's not. I don't want to be overweight and people on here are of the opinion every overweight person is happy being that way, I would say a good amount are not.

Reading this thread has depressed me and only made my self-esteem lower. Oh well..

Noreen1

Penny Dreadful wrote: »

Re: the genetic obesity, I work in medical research and have yet to come across the "fat gene". Have many for blue eyes, BRACA 1 and 2 cancers, Huntingtons Disease, etc but none for being fat.

I have a friend who has struggled with his weight for 15 years. His diet is healthy, he walks approx. 5 miles a day.
He eats half what I eat, and does a lot more exercise, yet he has constant problems with his weight, whereas I have none.
Interestingly, two of his siblings that I am aware of, also have weight issues, though I cannot verify that they have a healthy lifestyle.

I have a daughter who struggles with her weight. She eats the same diet as the rest of the family. She exercises regularly. She continues to have a problem with her weight, whereas the rest of the family do not. Interestingly, she has very similar physical characteristics to her great-grandmother, who also had weight issues.
Both my daughter and my friend have been to the doctor for help. After the usual blood tests/thyroid check/diet sheet - they were found to have a healthy lifestyle.

A "fat gene" may or may not exist, but it is certain that science has yet to find a solution for those who struggle to maintain a healthy weight, while maintaining a healthy lifestyle.

Should such people be "socially acceptable"? Absolutely!!

Noreen

prinz

drkpower wrote: »

Parents are different; kids are different. Telling people that they are wrong to use a balanced treat/reward system because your parents did it differrently, or because bad parents abuse a treat/reward system, is bad advice.

Opinions. Aren't they wonderful.

Penny Dreadful

drkpower wrote: »

Perhaps if your parents had given you a Big Mac for doing well in exams as a kid, you would be striving to achieve a little bit more than a bloody MSc.....:rolleyes:

Parents are different; kids are different. Telling people that they are wrong to use a balanced treat/reward system because your parents did it differrently, or because bad parents abuse a treat/reward system, is bad advice.

PMSL, an MSc (completed while working full time) is so much to be ashamed of. As of course will the PhD that I have be too. If only if only I'd be fed McDonalds maybe I'd have dropped out of school at 16, been employed in a medicore job, lost said meidocre job and now be living off the State.......... really you're just too ridiculous for words there.
My advice (although I wasn't aware I was giving any, thought was only offering an opinion) is just that my advice....based on my experiences. Yes it is my opinion that rewarding your child for doing their homework is not a good thing to do as doing homework and doing well in school is ultimately for their own good.

Penny Dreadful

Noreen1 wrote: »

I have a friend who has struggled with his weight for 15 years. His diet is healthy, he walks approx. 5 miles a day.
He eats half what I eat, and does a lot more exercise, yet he has constant problems with his weight, whereas I have none.
Interestingly, two of his siblings that I am aware of, also have weight issues, though I cannot verify that they have a healthy lifestyle.

I have a daughter who struggles with her weight. She eats the same diet as the rest of the family. She exercises regularly. She continues to have a problem with her weight, whereas the rest of the family do not. Interestingly, she has very similar physical characteristics to her great-grandmother, who also had weight issues.
Both my daughter and my friend have been to the doctor for help. After the usual blood tests/thyroid check/diet sheet - they were found to have a healthy lifestyle.

A "fat gene" may or may not exist, but it is certain that science has yet to find a solution for those who struggle to maintain a healthy weight, while maintaining a healthy lifestyle.

Should such people be "socially acceptable"? Absolutely!!

Noreen

Have I ever said they shouldn't be? Not once.

sam34

Penny Dreadful wrote: »

Re: the genetic obesity, I work in medical research and have yet to come across the "fat gene". Have many for blue eyes, BRACA 1 and 2 cancers, Huntingtons Disease, etc but none for being fat.

just 'cause it hasn't yet been identified doesn't mean it ain't there

there are other conditions whose genetic markers haven't been fully/at all identified


remember, there was a time when all scientists thought the atom couldn't be split...


i dont think anyone is saying genetics is the only cause of obesity, but it may well play some role

drkpower

prinz wrote: »

Instead of a kid learning what is normal and appropriate behaviour as normal and appropriate - they come to see normal and appropriate behaviour as something that should be rewarded. .

Depends on the level of the 'reward'.

Doing one's homework is normal and appropriate - is it bad to allow the kid to watch TV afterwards? Is that a reward? Or if the kid tidies his room, is it bad to give him 50c, given that a tidy room is what you expect from your child anyway?

And what is normal and appropriate behaviour?
For some kids, getting all A's might be normal and appropriate. For others, getting a B is outstanding. There is a reason kids are kids - they are learning waht is and what is not 'normal and appropriate' - one of the ways (not the only way, mind you) is in rewarding good behaviour. In moderation, there is nothing wrong with that.

prinz wrote: »

Depends on what follows tbh. If it is in the realm of instant gratification then I don't think that is a good thing (food, gifts, presents etc). Kids need to be taught that many people work very hard and don't get the rewards.

:rolleyes:
So giving a kid a present for achievement following hard work is a bad thing then? What an unusual attitude.

You dont need to prohibit rewards in order to teach them that many people work very hard and don't get the rewards......

How would you go about teaching kids that many people starve in Africa?

ash23

I think there is a fat gene. Or maybe it's the way family eating habits are passed down. I dunno but all of the women in my family are overweight bar one or two and they are the ones with slim mothers (in laws). Is it the parenting or the genes? I don't know.

But I do know it's very easy to put on weight.

When I met my ex I was 13 stone and 5ft 8. About a size 14. Reasonably slim.

I moved in with him. He was the same height and about 9 stone, had a 28" waist and lived off pizza and beer. Yeah, I was weak willed and when he'd suggest a 3 course take away I'd go for it, a tub of haagen daaz, sure! Why not.
He remained 9 stone. I went up to 19. :eek:

He cheated on me with a girl, she was about a size 12. She came up to me in a pub and called me a fat bitch and told me it was no wonder he left me for her.

2 years on I'm living alone and down to 14 stone. Still a ways to go but I'll get there. Saw her recently. She's living with him and she must be about 3 stone bigger........

You'd be surprised how the weight creeps on and how easy it is to become that person you now judge.

However the bitter bitch in me wants for me to keep getting smaller and that dirty skank to keep getting bigger so I guess that even though I've been there, I still look down a bit on fat people...her in particular

drkpower

Penny Dreadful wrote: »

PMSL, an MSc (completed while working full time) is so much to be ashamed of. As of course will the PhD that I have be too. If only if only I'd be fed McDonalds maybe I'd have dropped out of school at 16, been employed in a medicore job, lost said meidocre job and now be living off the State.......... really you're just too ridiculous for words there..

Perhaps if your parents had given you a Big Mac everytime you used your perceptive powers, you would be able to perceive when someone was taking the proverbial........

Penny Dreadful wrote: »

My advice (although I wasn't aware I was giving any, thought was only offering an opinion) is just that my advice....based on my experiences. Yes it is my opinion that rewarding your child for doing their homework is not a good thing to do as doing homework and doing well in school is ultimately for their own good. ..

That one deserves a 'double confusion'.....?
Should we (adults or kids) only get rewards for doing things that are not for our own good?

When I win a case, it is for my own good (and my clients); should I not get a reward/treat?
When a kid gets 600 points in the leaving cert, or steals the show at the school play, should he not get a reward/treat because it is 'for his own good'...?!!

prinz

drkpower wrote: »

Depends on the level of the 'reward'.
Doing one's homework is normal and appropriate - is it bad to allow the kid to watch TV afterwards?

Treating it as some kind of special reward, as opposed to any activity to pass the time when you are finished your homework is yes. Was I allowed watch tv after I finished my homework - if I wanted to yes I was, if I didn't want to I did something else. Putting something on a pedestal is almost guaranteed to produce a skewed relationship IMO

drkpower wrote: »

And what is normal and appropriate behaviour?
For some kids, getting all A's might be normal and appropriate. For others, getting a B is outstanding.

Indeed and kids should be taught the value in getting a B or a C in itself.
As for normal behaviour I was referring to some things I have seen/heard...like 'if you don't throw a tantrum at the checkout I will give you chocolate when we get outside'..'if you eat x veg or x amount of dinner I will give you ice cream/chocolate whatever'. Bad way of going about it IMO.

drkpower wrote: »

There is a reason kids are kids - they are learning waht is and what is not 'normal and appropriate' - one of the ways (not the only way, mind you) is in rewarding good behaviour. In moderation, there is nothing wrong with that.

I never said that in moderation it couldn't be. But more and more I see that the moderation becomes saturation.

drkpower wrote: »

So giving a kid a present for achievement following hard work is a bad thing then? What an unusual attitude.

If the kid comes to associate achievement with some sort of external reward yes. Again in moderation it's fine IMO. However it again seems to me that the level of what consitutes an 'achievement' is slipping year on year and the rewards are getting bigger and bigger. A huge sense of entitlement develops.

drkpower wrote: »

You dont need to prohibit rewards in order to teach them that many people work very hard and don't get the rewards....

...and you don't need to reward kids everytime for doing basic things they should be doing anyway, liking homework, tidy room, washing the dishes, cutting grass whatever.

drkpower wrote: »

How would you go about teaching kids that many people starve in Africa?

Books, documentaries, tv, explaining trocaire collections, teaching kids from a young age to be appreciative of food etc.

tc2010

why is feeding a child ****ty Mcdonalds food considered a treat?

topper75

ash23 wrote: »

When I met my ex I was 13 stone and 5ft 8. About a size 14. Reasonably slim.

I am trying to picture this and can't. 13 stone for that height and 'reasonably slim'. height typo?

I hope you keep training and get the better of that wagon btw;). I don't agree with people being fat but she has no licence for direct personal abuse. Nice irony if she is chubbing up!