Boards.ie Drug Policy

FreudianSlippers

Not sure if I'm posting this in the right forum, but I was reading the Forum Charter in the Legal Discussion thread to point out a rule to someone when I happened upon this section:

Drugs
Legal issues surrounding drugs can be discussed. Debate about the relevant laws is welcome, and encouraged. However, do not advocate the use of drugs, or discuss any aspects of drug usage itself. Such discussion is both against boards.ie policy, and is (so far) inappropriate to this forum.

I'm specifically interested in the rationale and merits behind the policy in italics.

Now, at the outset, I am not advocating the recreational or other uses of any drugs nor am I arguing that this type of discussion belongs in the Legal Discussion forum, but I do feel the policy could use clarification.

The rule seems ambiguous for multiple reasons. Firstly, the most patently obvious oversight is which drugs should not be discussed? Legal/Prescription or Illegal/Controversial drugs? Is it against boards.ie policy to discuss the merits of acetaminophen vs ibuprofen or "legal highs", or is the aim to prevent discussion of illegal drugs?

If it is the latter and the aim is to discuss or advocate illegal drugs, I still question this policy to some extent. Now, I would like to make it quite unambiguous that I am not proposing that boards.ie ought to allow people to come on and talk about how great mdma and heroin is on a night out, I merely pose this circumstance for consideration:
Take the Long Term Illness forum - would it be against policy to discuss the merits of using Cannabis in cases of AIDS and cancer patients for appetite problems associated with the treatment of said diseases?
Similar questions arise as to discussion surrounding the use of MDMA in treating PTSD (source).
Similar medical uses exist for cocaine (a substance found to lack the same potential for harm in its pure form when compared to "cut" cocaine.)

Certainly a legal/social/medical discussion relating to the potential for things we consider to be "bad", "immoral" and "dangerous" to have a positive impact on the lives of many (social/economic/health) ought to be encouraged rather than a closed-door policy of "drugs are illegal because they are illegal and we shouldn't discuss them".

Now, I'm not saying that is the boards.ie policy, but it would seem from the wording of the charter that should a discussion arise regarding drug use it would be closed. Alternatively, in the event that I were to go into the Long Term Illness forum right now and (hypothetically) post that I had cancer and I recommend anyone who is not responding to appetite enhancers etc. should try cannabis, is that an infraction - and why?


Honestly not trying to provoke anything by bringing this topic up. I'm not suffering from cancer, I don't want to advocate anyone to use drugs (whether or not I believe that they should is irrelevant) and I don't use drugs myself - I am merely attempting to gain understanding and perhaps open up conversation regarding the forum policy. Commence flame!

Tallon

<-- Boards.ie Policy

P. Breathnach

I'll set aside the question of illegal drugs.

I would have reservations about discussing prescription drugs here because we have no way of knowing how competent (or honest) any poster is, and we would be in an area where people might be influenced in life-or-death decisions.

And as for alternative medicine, don't get me started on that.

Overheal

Tallon wrote: »

<-- Boards.ie Policy

Not quite.

I don't pretend to know the whole spiel but you are allowed to discuss them, which is a lot more than some people would like the site to allow.

Similarly you can discuss Internet Piracy, so long as you don't explain how to commit Piracy or help others in that endeavor.

faceman

Individual posts advocating the use of drugs offer nothing anecdotal and often immature debate points, most of which include "I smoke hash and im ok" or "i smoke hash and its definitely not an avenue for harder drugs". In summary pointless and not offering any real discussion points.

As for marijuana for medicinal purposes, most of the people who bring that up are not medically qualified nor have a breeze what they are talking about.

tbh

OisinT wrote: »

Alternatively, in the event that I were to go into the Long Term Illness forum right now and (hypothetically) post that I had cancer and I recommend anyone who is not responding to appetite enhancers etc. should try cannabis, is that an infraction - and why?

yeah, it would be an infraction, because you're offering advice.
However, if you said "When I had cancer, I used cannabis and it helped me" - that would be fine as far as I'm concerned.

The reason discussions like this make me nervous however is that I think a "don't ask, don't tell" policy is best around this particular topic.

I'd try to judge each post on a case by case basis, around the intentions of the poster.

However, threads like this - no disrespect btw, I'm just offering a personal opinion - tend to bring out the legislators in people, who suggest catch-all rules for situations where mature common-sense is the best policy. I stress again, that's just my own personal opinion

DeVore

We get it from both sides. We've had moderators quit because we wouldnt comdemn (illegal) drug abuse and allowed people to post their own experiences. We get other people saying we are too censorous.

I agree with TBH on this... its far too complex an issue to start drawing black and white lines.

DeV

drkpower

tbh wrote: »

However, threads like this tend to bring out the legislators in people, who suggest catch-all rules for situations where mature common-sense is the best policy. I stress again, that's just my own personal opinion

Very true; but of course it does beg the question why the forum charter has a catch-all rule on the discussion on drugs. The OP here is spot-on; the suggestion that you can discuss the merits of legalising illegal drugs (which is allowed) while not being able to 'discuss any aspects of drug usage itself' (which is not allowed), is non-sensical.

Better just to have a rule saying 'Expressly advocating illegal behaviour is a little dodgy - the line between that and discussing the pros & cons of drugs for the purposes of a debate on legalisation, is a blurred one; Please take a common sense approach - or the Mods will for you'

DeVore

Can you give me an example of how you would "discuss aspects of drug usage" with any social merit? i'm not being stickie, I have said before here that I have not been a stranger to weed in the past, and I will debate the pro's and con's of usage but I dont see any merit in the discussion of how to enhance your high etc.

We're trying to avoid posts about how mashed the user is right now or begging appeals for "some cos they are like, out, man and its haaarsh....... but we have snacks we'll share!"

OP, I dont think you will find any reasonable discussion being closed, we have several long standing drug-related threads in Politics, AH, Humanities etc.

DeV.

drkpower

DeVore wrote: »

Can you give me an example of how you would "discuss aspects of drug usage" with any social merit? i'm not being stickie, I have said before here that I have not been a stranger to weed in the past, and I will debate the pro's and con's of usage but I dont see any merit in the discussion of how to enhance your high etc.

Ahhhh...I think I might be seeing what the (my) problem is here. Does 'aspects of drug usage' mean things like : 'if you use an extra large bong, you get a better hit' or 'fun size crunchies are the ultimate munchies' and discussion to that effect?

I thought the prohibition on 'aspects of drug usage' meant a prohibition on discussing the potential benefits (or negatives) of drug abuse?

DeVore

No, we have specifically allowed people to talk about their OWN experiences (good and bad) with illegal drugs... what we dont allow is implying that others should do them. Its a very grey area but thats my take on it.

DeV.

FreudianSlippers

faceman wrote: »

Individual posts advocating the use of drugs offer nothing anecdotal and often immature debate points, most of which include "I smoke hash and im ok" or "i smoke hash and its definitely not an avenue for harder drugs". In summary pointless and not offering any real discussion points.

Generalisation.

faceman wrote: »

As for marijuana for medicinal purposes, most of the people who bring that up are not medically qualified nor have a breeze what they are talking about.

I specifically mentioned the Health forum and Long Term Illness forum for that purpose. That is (or is at least supposed to be) a thread in which people discuss medical issues and treatments I assumed?

tbh wrote: »

However, threads like this - no disrespect btw, I'm just offering a personal opinion - tend to bring out the legislators in people, who suggest catch-all rules for situations where mature common-sense is the best policy. I stress again, that's just my own personal opinion

I take no disrespect. In fact, as I mentioned I am posting this question not because of a personal need to discuss drugs... rather merely as a means to understand the rules (and perhaps hone my ability to play devil's advocate in some regards ). I would be of the personal opinion that mature common-sense is the correct way forward on a drug-related discussion policy - my question was, when I saw that section of the charter, is that the policy of boards.ie? A question I ask, and I must stress this again (as I did in my OP) that this is a question asked blatantly out of curiosity.

drkpower wrote: »

Very true; but of course it does beg the question why the forum charter has a catch-all rule on the discussion on drugs. The OP here is spot-on; the suggestion that you can discuss the merits of legalising illegal drugs (which is allowed) while not being able to 'discuss any aspects of drug usage itself' (which is not allowed), is non-sensical.

Better just to have a rule saying 'Expressly advocating illegal behaviour is a little dodgy - the line between that and discussing the pros & cons of drugs for the purposes of a debate on legalisation, is a blurred one; Please take a common sense approach - or the Mods will for you'

Spot on. Exactly what I was trying to open up for discussion.

DeVore wrote: »

Can you give me an example of how you would "discuss aspects of drug usage" with any social merit?

Quite simply, legalisation of Cannabis could have a positive effect on society and economics. Revenue would increase from tax, new businesses would open, gangs would lose power, etc. It is these types of aspects that could be discussed on the boards - as opposed to "joints v. blunts: discuss".

Again, I don't use any drugs (not that I haven't tried them when I was younger) - my rationale for opening this discussion was to explore the reasoning behind the current policy.

I fully appreciate how these types of threads could descend into immaturity - but isn't that why we have mods?

DeVore wrote: »

We're trying to avoid posts about how mashed the user is right now or begging appeals for "some cos they are like, out, man and its haaarsh....... but we have snacks we'll share!"

OP, I dont think you will find any reasonable discussion being closed, we have several long standing drug-related threads in Politics, AH, Humanities etc.

DeV.

That's precisely what I'm asking. Is the policy cut and dry, or is there room to discuss medical, economic, etc. topics regarding drugs?
I think you will find I've made that perfectly clear in my original post and I would not like it to be taken any other way.
I am not complaining about the policy or trying to get the policy changed, just trying to understand the policy and open a discussion about where the line is drawn or if threads regarding drugs are monitored on their own merits.

FreudianSlippers

DeVore wrote: »

No, we have specifically allowed people to talk about their OWN experiences (good and bad) with illegal drugs... what we dont allow is implying that others should do them. Its a very grey area but thats my take on it.

DeV.

That's perfectly clear and fine. My question centred more around the discussion of drugs vis a vie legalisation, medicinal use, crime, etc. and the rules relating to that type of discussion on the boards.
Perhaps I'm looking at it in a slightly too legal sense, but the rule regarding drug discussion seemed quite unambiguous in that discussion was prohibited.

Again, this is a quote from the rules:

do not advocate the use of drugs, or discuss any aspects of drug usage itself. Such discussion is both against boards.ie policy, and is (so far) inappropriate to this forum.

That would seem to imply, or at least I inferred, that discussion of drug usage in any manner was contrary to forum rules - including, but not limited to, useage. I would take that rule to mean that discussion legalisation for any of the aforementioned reasons would be contrary to the rules.

Again: I have no agenda here - I don't particularly want to discuss any of these things, I just thought it was interesting and wanted to hear the rationale and discussion regarding the forum charter and its implementation.

DeVore

We dont have rules, we have guidelines. If something particular comes up I expect mods to use their intellect rather then blindly applying some "rules". So, yes, everything is pliable and generally up for discussion if it hasnt been discussed quite recently.


Oisin, have you seen the massive, long running and contentious thread in the politics forum regarding taxing Marajuana in order to get us out of our recession? or the AH thread on closing down Head Shops and their impact on the drugs gangs? Both are very good examples of what you are looking for...

DeV.

DeVore

I think the legal forum is defining "usage" as "steps required to take" as opposed to the "concept of people ingesting substances". Also the "Such discussion" refers back to "Do not advocate the use of drugs".

Each forum will have its own cultural agreement on such things, AH seems relatively laid back while Parenting miiiiight be a touch more stringent. YMMV.

DeV.

I think a private "Responsible Drug Use" forum would be a good idea..

DeVore

I think that would be.... unwise.

DeV.

Overheal

The tabloids would have a field day, at least.

DeVore

I dont care about the tabloids but it seems ridiculous that we have a policy not to give people medical advice and be proposing a forum to explain how to take illegal drugs "safely" ?

DeV.

Overheal

Im sure you can find plenty of Marijuana et all forums on the webisphere anyway. Similarly piracy forums are out there, too.

pickarooney

DeVore wrote: »

I dont care about the tabloids but it seems ridiculous that we have a policy not to give people medical advice and be proposing a forum to explain how to take illegal drugs "safely" ?

DeV.

From a pragmatic point of view, there's no point pretending that people are not doing drugs.

Boards doesn't and shouldn't allow medical advice principally because there are professionals available to do this.

There are no professionals available to advise people to e.g. avoid the beige E tabs with the crescent moon or not to smoke Transkei Red if you've been drinking lager.

I'm not saying that there necessarily should be a forum for discussing safer drug use, just that it's not that ludicrous an idea.

DeVore

Ok thats a fair point but its also not really our role here... if someone created a thread saying "theres a bunch of skanky pills going, they are red, avoid them" in AH, I dont think it would be deleted...

DeV.

Overheal

And they havent been deleted. A couple years ago there was a big story about some Anti-Drug bastards in England that distributed large quanitites of tainted marijuana, that was riddled/"enriched" with glass dust. After Hours carried a thread for a good while iirc.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I think a private "Responsible Drug Use" forum would be a good idea..

DeVore wrote: »

I think that would be.... unwise.

DeV.

If it's not illegal to talk about drugs, it's a private forum and there's a disclaimer, why would it be unwise?

DeVore wrote: »

I dont care about the tabloids but it seems ridiculous that we have a policy not to give people medical advice and be proposing a forum to explain how to take illegal drugs "safely" ?

DeV.

I don't see how this is ridiculous.. How can anything that makes taking drugs safer be a bad thing?
Are you just anti-drugs by any chance?

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

If it's not illegal to talk about drugs, it's a private forum and there's a disclaimer, why would it be unwise?

Seems like just asking for Gards to sniff around the forum, poised as 'responsible drug users' and once they read something incriminating enough, subpoena Boards.ie ltd. for the identity of those users.

Pace2008

Overheal wrote: »

Im sure you can find plenty of Marijuana et all forums on the webisphere anyway. Similarly piracy forums are out there, too.

You could say this every time someone puts in a request for a new forum on Feedback. I'm always interested in hearing Irish views on issues.

ynotdu

OsinT the MOD in question that was lost on this issue was WATTY.
He and boards could not reconcile their diffriences.
It is 'walking on eggshells'Territory.

Watty was possibly the most brilliant and respected MODS on boards in the forums,His speciality was in Tech>Broadcasting and associated aspects of Media including broadband.

Those forums have almost died since He decided to leave:(

Overheal

Pace2008 wrote: »

You could say this every time someone puts in a request for a new forum on Feedback. I'm always interested in hearing Irish views on issues.

Not really. Theres talking about it and then theres talking about it.

Set up a forum like that and its not long before someone starts talking about a guy they know in X town or that they have a connection to Suspect Y and thats when a subpoena would take place.

Simply discussing drugs is not the incriminating factor.

My name is URL

I doubt that very many people would be willing to openly discuss drugs in a way that suggests they take them anyway. It's far too easy for the authorities to glean any info they feel is pertinent to upholding drug laws. It's a small country, and a relatively huge forum so open discussion on questionable subjects would stand out very much here, imo

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

Seems like just asking for Gards to sniff around the forum, poised as 'responsible drug users' and once they read something incriminating enough, subpoena Boards.ie ltd. for the identity of those users.

Good point actually yea.. Altho I would hope they have better ways of getting at the dealers than that!

Overheal

ynotdu wrote: »

OsinT the MOD in question that was lost on this issue was WATTY.
He and boards could not reconcile their diffriences.
It is 'walking on eggshells'Territory.

Watty was possibly the most brilliant and respected MODS on boards in the forums,His speciality was in Tech>Broadcasting and associated aspects of Media including broadband.

Those forums have almost died since He decided to leave:(

When did this happen??? Watty was the bees knees