Dental Issues Moderators - Complaint

Hillmanhunter1

On 12 April 2010 I posted the following request in the Dental Issues forum:
“Hi
I need a lot of dental work done, root canal treatment, crowns, bridges and probably implants. In the current environment I can't afford to spend the price of a mid-sized car on having that work done in Ireland. I'm looking for recommendations please, by private message preferably, from people who have had extensive work done in Hungary, Macedonia or anywhere else.
Thanks”

Two things should be immediately clear from this request:
a) I have done some research, and have decided, on the basis of costs, to go to Eastern Europe for dental treatment; and
b) I am looking for advice from patients who have had similar work done.

I asked for advice via private message because the Forum Charter states “Recommendations can be sought however they must be handled via PM.”

First, the good news, I got a couple of helpful responses from patients which will be of some use as I go through my decision process. Thank you to those posters.

The bad news however, was my experience at the hands of Fitzgeme and Big_G the Moderators of the Dental Issues forum. This prize pair sought to hijack my thread and turn it into a lecture on the perils of travelling abroad for dental work. I accept that part of the experience of posting on a public message board is that one will get off-topic posts, however when those posters close your thread and ban you for criticising them (as posters, not as Moderators) then this is an abuse of the privilege of being a Moderator.

According to the FAQ on Boards.ie:
“Moderators are the care-takers of the forums on boards.ie. It's their job to make sure everything's running smoothly and they can perform certain administrative functions on the forums they are charged with like deleting spam, merging threads or banning troublesome users....Moderators that are posting in forums they do not moderate are for all intents and purposes, regarded as Registered Users. Inside their own forums however, they are responsible for keeping it happy and healthy, and have the power to lay down the law as well as restrict your access from those forums if you should break the specific forum's rules.”

From this I infer that within the forums that they moderate the role of the Moderator is to keep it happy and healthy, to be a referee, or invigilator.

The problem is that these Moderators (both of whom acknowledge that they are dentists) operate as if they were Registered Users within the forum, but use their Moderator powers to cut off voices that disagree with their perspective.

Looking back over the thread that I started and several other similar treads it is clear that they both sing off the same hymn sheet when it comes to threads dealing with dental treatment abroad, the message is simple, “Irish dentists good, foreign dentists bad”. I am happy to acknowledge that it looks to me, as a layman, as if in every other respect the advice they offer in the Dental Issues forum is expert and balanced. On this specific issue however, i.e. the merits/demerits of foreign versus Irish dentists, while they are entitled to put their views as often and as ably as they can, given that they are practising dentists they have an obvious conflict of interests, and in my view they are they are unsuitable to act as Moderators. I would urge that at a minimum another Moderator, who is not a dentist, be appointed to moderate on threads dealing with dental treatment abroad.

Zaph

The normal dispute resolution procedure would be for you to PM the mod(s) in question, but I don't think this is worthwhile in this case. I would therefore suggest you go to the next step, which is to PM the CMods, in this case tbh and r3nu4l, who will review your case. As tbh mentioned on another DI thread earlier today, he is a past DI mod (not sure if he's a dentist or not), so he will understand if you don't want to contact him.

If you're not happy with the CMods' response please come back to this thread and an admin will review the issue for you.

Hillmanhunter1

Zaph wrote: »

The normal dispute resolution procedure would be for you to PM the mod(s) in question, but I don't think this is worthwhile in this case. I would therefore suggest you go to the next step, which is to PM the CMods, in this case tbh and r3nu4l, who will review your case. As tbh mentioned on another DI thread earlier today, he is a past DI mod (not sure if he's a dentist or not), so he will understand if you don't want to contact him.

If you're not happy with the CMods' response please come back to this thread and an admin will review the issue for you.

Thanks for this advice. I posted my complaint here because one of the Moderators told me this was the place to complain:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055888996

I'll take it up with one of the CMods

tbh

The charter does state that recommendations for dentists are allowed over pm, however it also states:

Please note: We do not allow requests for prıcıng/treatment detaıls abroad.

Your thread should have been locked, I'd imagine the mods left it open because they were trying to give you advice. I've asked the mods to lock all such threads in future.

Hillmanhunter1

tbh wrote: »

The charter does state that recommendations for dentists are allowed over pm, however it also states:

Please note: We do not allow requests for prıcıng/treatment detaıls abroad.

Forgive me but please explain how I breached these (possibly contradictory) rules.

The Charter does not say that "recommendations for dentists are allowed over pm", what it says, verbatim, is that “Recommendations can be sought however they must be handled via PM.”

The difference may seem pedantic, however it is crucial. In your version, posters are would seem to be allowed to give recommendations, however what the Charter actually says is that posters are allowed to seek recommendations, and that is what I did, requesting that they be sent by PM as required by the Charter.

It was only when you drew my attention to it that I saw that, though the Charter is setout in Fitzgeme's initial post on the relevant thread, you added a qualification in a subsequent post. (The presentation of the Charter could be improved!)

But what does your qualification mean, and how did I breach it? I did not ask for pricing, and I did not ask for treatment details, I asked for a recommendations from any patients who had travelled to Eastern Europe for dental treatment, and the Charter clearly allows that.

r3nu4l

HillmanHunter1 has asked that his dispute be dealt with on HelpDesk as he feels this is more transparent and my PM to him 'missed the point'.

To summarise, I feel the mods acted responsibly in that they provided educational and informative posts relating to the standard of dental work from certain Eastern European countries, they have seen in their clinics. They were as unpartisan and unbiased as it is possible for them to be imo. I didn't see any signs of 'protectionism' of the dental profession.

They did not hijack the thread, they simply responded to a post they saw and warned of potential pitfalls of finding cheap dental work abroad.

While HillmanHunter1 may not have wanted that advice, it's a public forum and such advice can be given. Were I a patient who had had a great experience I might have posted to say 'go for it'. Had I had a poor experience abroad I might have posted to say 'don't do it!'. That's the nature of forums. Everyone has the right to reply on-topic.

The only problem I saw was that the mods did not lock the thread as soon as it appeared because the charter does forbid such discussion. However, I'm sure that if another such thread appears they will lock it straight away.

Hillmanhunter1

As per my earlier post I forwarded my complaint to one of the CMods, r3nu4l, who replied to me via a private message. I’m a big fan of transparency, and so, fortunately is r3nu4l. With is permission (please feel free to contact him) I am posting his response and my reply.

r3nu4l’s response:

Hi Hillmanhunter1,

Thank you for getting in touch with me. I have read the necessary threads in great detail and can see that you are not happy.

From your point of view you feel that the dentists in question that posted on the thread, are simply protecting their own interestes and preserving the status quo that exists.

I do have some sympathy for that general point of view, in that certainly the dental profession do not want masses of people going to cheaper countries for dental work.

However, in this particular case, my perception is that the dentists in question were providing both informative and educational posts on that thread. They were as unpartisan as it is possible to be, simply stating that this type of treatment is not always the best option. They even went so far as to say that sometimes they have seen good work from Eastern European dentsits but that generally, the methods used are substandard and while they may appear fine cosmetically, the work may be terrible internally.

Finally, the fault that I do find is that the moderators did not lock your thread as soon as it appeared as the forum charter specifically forbids users seeking recommendations about ANY dentists, in Ireland or abroad. I understand that the reason they did not lock the thread was because they wanted to provide a 'warning' of the potential dangers of having work done too cheaply in a country where dental practices may not be as rigorous as those in Ireland. They did even admit that some Irish dentists do not do great work. Again I felt that was a sign that they were trying to be as unbiased as possible.

In this case I don't see anything for the moderators to answer. I realise that isn't what you want to hear but that's how I am calling it for now unless something else comes to light.

Thanks again for contacting me,
r3nu4l. Sci Category Moderator.

My reply:

Hi r3nu4l

Thank you for your response, I appreciate the fact that you took the time to read the thread.

While my dispute with the Mods on the Dental Issues forum led to the closure of my thread and to me being banned for a week, I have not appealed these decisions, even though I consider them unfair, because at the end of the day the issue will come down to a subjective decision on:
a) Whether or not my post was in breach of the Charter (en passant, I notice that another CMod, tbh, has redrafted the Charter and removed the conflicting provisions); and
b) Whether or not my style of argument, and I accept that I’m not one to hold back, was appropriate.

My complaint is that the Moderators, who are both dentists, have an obvious and striking conflict of interests when it comes to moderating threads that deal with dental treatment abroad. (Disclosure: I have no interests whatsoever in the dental profession or allied businesses, either in Ireland or abroad)

It doesn’t matter one whit that these two might be the most honourable and upright chaps on God’s green earth, a conflict of interests such as this must be recognised and addressed otherwise there will always be a cloud over the quality of the Moderators decisions in relation to such threads.

There are two ways to deal with conflicts of interest, eliminate them or manage them. Where possible conflicts of interest should be eliminated, which in effect means that Moderators should not moderate on discussions where they are conflicted.

The world is however imperfect, it is probably not practical to look for a different moderator for a few threads, and having a dentist or two participating in a Dental Issues thread is clearly not a bad thing. That means that the best option is to manage the conflict of interests, and this is very easy to do, the answer is: disclosure.

I see from his signature that the CMod tbh is already a fan, his signature reads: “unless I'm posting in the helpdesk, or in bold I'm posting as a user and not a mod or cmod, and you're perfectly entitled to tell me to go f--k myself. You probably shouldn't phrase it quite like that tho.”

Perhaps Fitzgeme and Big_G might adopt this policy when posting in threads about dental treatment abroad, it would avoid the perception that disagreeing with their opinion (even if it is an expert opinion) can result in a Moderator’s sanction.

This is not an issue that I’m going to die in the ditch about – this is probably my final post. I only joined Boards to ask this particular question and my experiences will certainly colour my opinion of this message board. I’m off back to my usual haunt of politics.ie, where robust debate is not only tolerated but demanded!

Regards and thanks again

Hillmanhuter1

tbh

Hey hillman, i take all of your points on board and i agree, without any critisism of the current mods, that its something we need to look at. Unfortunately in this case i misunderstood the nature of your op and accept you werent looking for pricing - in fairness tho if i had read it properly i would have replied along the same lines as r3. Finally i just want to clarify that having read your post here i took a look at the charter and tried to make it more straightforward - this is as a result of the points you made and wasnt an attempt to retrospectively cover our arses.

r3nu4l

Hillmanhunter1 wrote: »

My complaint is that the Moderators, who are both dentists, have an obvious and striking conflict of interests when it comes to moderating threads that deal with dental treatment abroad. (Disclosure: I have no interests whatsoever in the dental profession or allied businesses, either in Ireland or abroad)

It doesn’t matter one whit that these two might be the most honourable and upright chaps on God’s green earth, a conflict of interests such as this must be recognised and addressed otherwise there will always be a cloud over the quality of the Moderators decisions in relation to such threads.

There are two ways to deal with conflicts of interest, eliminate them or manage them. Where possible conflicts of interest should be eliminated, which in effect means that Moderators should not moderate on discussions where they are conflicted.

Funnily enough I came here today to say that I probably can't participate in this discussion anymore as Admins have the final say on these matters and since we last messaged, I've been added to the Admin team. So my post here was simply going to be one that declared a 'conflict of interest'

The world is however imperfect, it is probably not practical to look for a different moderator for a few threads, and having a dentist or two participating in a Dental Issues thread is clearly not a bad thing. That means that the best option is to manage the conflict of interests, and this is very easy to do, the answer is: disclosure.

Interestingly, tbh is not a dentist and was once a mod of the Dental Issues forum. Perhaps it's worth looking again at having a non-dental mod in the forum...if only to manage the perception of bias.

Perhaps Fitzgeme and Big_G might adopt this policy when posting in threads about dental treatment abroad, it would avoid the perception that disagreeing with their opinion (even if it is an expert opinion) can result in a Moderator’s sanction.

Well as tbh said, his changes to the charter were made to help clarify the rules so that we don't come to this situation again.

This is not an issue that I’m going to die in the ditch about – this is probably my final post. I only joined Boards to ask this particular question and my experiences will certainly colour my opinion of this message board.

That is unfortunate as we certainly don't aim to alienate users However, this website has its own set of 'unwritten rules' as with any well-established community (such as politics.ie) and it can take a while to get used to them but once you do, you'll find the site very, very useful.