Luas Lucan: Proposed route change for interchange at Inchicore

monument

Open days on proposed route change for Dart interchange at Inchicore, from the RPA:

Luas Lucan (Line F1) will run from Newcastle Road (Lucan) to Blackhorse, where it will link to the Red Line. This new Luas line will connect Lucan, Liffey Valley Town Centre and Ballyfermot to Dublin City Centre.

The Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) will hold two open days to outline a proposed change in the route of Luas Lucan to provide for interchange with the new DART Underground station in Inchicore.

DATE: Tuesday 27th of April
TIME: 6pm - 9pm
VENUE: Liffey Gaels GAA Club, Lower Ballyfermot

DATE: Wednesday 28th of April
TIME: 6pm - 9pm
VENUE: Oblate Hall, Inchicore

dazberry

and the map...

D.

Chris_5339762

Quite a lot of buildings to scythe through

JHMEG

Does this mean that to go to Lucan from Leixlip, (1 mile apart) I'll have to get a Dart into Pearse, another Dart to Inchicore, and then a Luas to Lucan? 100 years ago the two were connected by rail!

HydeRoad

Am I the only person in Dublin who is dumbfounded by this route from Lucan to the city, about as far away as possible from anything that makes logical sense?

Even with the traffic problems, you could drive from Lucan to town and back far quicker than any tram would negotiate this tortuous trek through half of south Dublin. When you get in your car, you will drive the most direct route to the city. And that is the way a public service should go, in order to encourage people out of cars. Direct.

I would go so far as to say this whole project should be binned if this is the best that transport brains in this city can come up with. I can find nothing of any benefit to anyone that would justify the enoprmous expense of the thing. It's lunatic. I beg to be persuaded otherwise.

Boxoffrogs

As a Lucan resident, I'm more than happy with the bus service to the city centre, Leixlip, Maynooth etc., the bus corridor works very well. It's amazing though, that to travel to Clondalkin from Lucan (they are adjacent), I would have to travel into the city centre and then out again.

Would be much happier if they scrap the Lucan Luas idea altogether and expand the bus routes, this I know would also be popular locally judging from the opinions I've heard expressed.

Spanish Eyes

I am not sure about the route of the Lucan Luas at all. I agree that it will serve Ballyfermot, which is highly populated. However, what is the advantage to those living further out?

Not much AFAIS. I am no engineer or road/public transport designer, but it looks to me that local politics has decided the route.

So if you are living in Lucan, you have to go around the houses (maybe that is the point to hoover up passengers... LOL), and arrive in Dublin City about an hour later. The Bus Corridor from Lucan is good, gets into town in the morning rush about 35minutes (someone correct me, I am talking about the expresso here). It is buslane all the way from Palmerstown to the city centre, one of the best bus corridors I know.

OK lets say the Luas went from Lucan down the spinal route of the N4 and turned up Kylemore Road at Lucan Road junction to join the Red line... the Ballyfermot people would have access, but it wouldn't be a snake taking forever to get to town.

Sorry about the long post, but I thoroughly agree that the towns of Tallaght, Lucan, Clondalkin, and Blanchardstown should be accessible to each other. What about a bus corridor alongside the M50. Probably would make sense with overbridges, but it is probably too sensible!!

Would love to hear others views on this. The Westside of Dublin is hugely populated with only Dublin Bus (apart from a bit of Luas and Irish Rail).

HydeRoad

diddledum wrote: »

Would be much happier if they scrap the Lucan Luas idea altogether and expand the bus routes, this I know would also be popular locally judging from the opinions I've heard expressed.

Absolutely. So why don't they? They certainly don't want the private sector doing it. Just you wait, someone will tell you there is a 'network review' under way. What a load of nonsense. There has never, ever been a plan or vision around public transport provision in the city. Just the same old piecemeal fiddling with an old, outdated network with it's genesis in the 1890s.

They are happy to see buses spend ages at bus stops transacting archaic fare collection procedures. The same mentality expects people in Lucan to board trams and traverse half of south Dublin, taking four times as long as necessary. And then wonder why everyone uses private cars?

I don't know who is fundamentally responsible, but Dempsey, and Cullen before him, are a good place to start.

DWCommuter

That new route looks to be based on part of Inchicore works being sold off for development. Just like the DART station. While Barry Kenny claims that the company is aware of recession, they obviously aren't aware of the implosion of property development. I'm convinced these state agencies (semi or otherwise) believe the building boom will make a comeback. It won't...ever.

DWCommuter

HydeRoad wrote: »

I don't know who is fundamentally responsible, but Dempsey, and Cullen before him, are a good place to start.

From the top right down to the bottom. That's who's responsible. All the hands are dirty, not just Government.

JHMEG

HydeRoad wrote: »

Am I the only person in Dublin who is dumbfounded by this route from Lucan to the city, about as far away as possible from anything that makes logical sense?

There seems to be a prevailing line of thought that says any rail service is great, no matter how bad it is.

JHMEG

DWCommuter wrote: »

I'm convinced these state agencies (semi or otherwise) believe the building boom will make a comeback. It won't...ever.

CIE supports NAMA!

donvito99

JHMEG wrote: »

Does this mean that to go to Lucan from Leixlip, (1 mile apart) I'll have to get a Dart into Pearse, another Dart to Inchicore, and then a Luas to Lucan?

or you could walk.

JHMEG

donvito99 wrote: »

or you could walk.

Seems like that's what they have in mind alright.

donvito99

Indeed. Has the option of the Lucan line connecting with the I/C at Christchurch been abandoned?

I'd love to see it go to Stephen's Gr.

KC61

JHMEG wrote: »

Does this mean that to go to Lucan from Leixlip, (1 mile apart) I'll have to get a Dart into Pearse, another Dart to Inchicore, and then a Luas to Lucan? 100 years ago the two were connected by rail!

66, 66a, 66b or 66d?

JHMEG

KC61 wrote: »

66, 66a, 66b or 66d?

They bring their own problems. One of them is the departure times are from the terminii, none of which are in Lucan.

KC61

JHMEG wrote: »

They bring their own problems. One of them is the departure times are from the terminii, none of which are in Lucan.

A fair point, which is to be addressed as part of the network review I understand. However if you are in any way a regular user you'll soon figure out that buses get to Lucan Village in about 30/35 minutes off-peak, and maybe an extra 5-10 minutes in the peak.

alias no.9

JHMEG wrote: »

Does this mean that to go to Lucan from Leixlip, (1 mile apart) I'll have to get a Dart into Pearse, another Dart to Inchicore, and then a Luas to Lucan? 100 years ago the two were connected by rail!

A bus route running between either Louisa Bridge or Confey and Adamstown Station, via Lucan Village would seem like a good solution.
In the longer term (but still probably sooner than any Lucan Luas) the rail interconnector between Heuston and the Docklands via Stephens Green will be up and running, when that happens there should be a web of busses across Lucan delivering people to Adamstown station from there they'll get to the city centre very quickly. All other stations on the Kildare line should receive the same treatment, with feeder busses to a much higher frequency train service, and of course integrated ticketing.

FlameoftheWest

DWCommuter wrote: »

That new route looks to be based on part of Inchicore works being sold off for development. Just like the DART station. While Barry Kenny claims that the company is aware of recession, they obviously aren't aware of the implosion of property development. I'm convinced these state agencies (semi or otherwise) believe the building boom will make a comeback. It won't...ever.

The only other thing I can think of that the works is going to be converted into a public amenity; park, museum or an arts space.

Saint Patrick's Atlentic also wanted to build a new stadium in the area for years now. It was to be located on Saint Micheal's Estate but that not knocked down and then there was talk of the railway works.

dowlingm

donvito99 wrote: »

Indeed. Has the option of the Lucan line connecting with the I/C at Christchurch been abandoned?

I'd love to see it go to Stephen's Gr.

They are calling that section F2 (Luas Liberties) now - I wonder if that means F-2-Decades-From-Now.

JHMEG

KC61 wrote: »

However if you are in any way a regular user you'll soon figure out that buses get to Lucan Village in about 30/35 minutes off-peak, and maybe an extra 5-10 minutes in the peak.

I'm not, but the 66 will get me to Leixlip in 30 mins or a bit less off peak. PITA the odd time I'm in Lucan and I go to get the bus home. No info at the bus stop... have I missed the bus, which was the *last* bus... could I have had another 10 mins to finish my pint... will I be waiting half an hour at a bus-stop in downtown Lucan late at night on my own, only to end up getting a cab home...

KC61

JHMEG wrote: »

I'm not, but the 66 will get me to Leixlip in 30 mins or a bit less off peak. PITA the odd time I'm in Lucan and I go to get the bus home. No info at the bus stop... have I missed the bus, which was the *last* bus... could I have had another 10 mins to finish my pint... will I be waiting half an hour at a bus-stop in downtown Lucan late at night on my own, only to end up getting a cab home...

That will be addressed as part of the rollout of the realtime passenger information this year - you'll be able to check the bus on your mobile.

JHMEG

KC61 wrote: »

That will be addressed as part of the rollout of the realtime passenger information this year - you'll be able to check the bus on your mobile.

I presume it's not going to be free to check?

KC61

JHMEG wrote: »

I presume it's not going to be free to check?

Well if you're in a free wifi zone it will be.

There will be "at stop" displays too...but the internet/text version is coming first....

And before you blame the bus company...that one is the government's fault as they withdrew the funding.

JHMEG

KC61 wrote: »

Well if you're in a free wifi zone it will be.

Are they providing free wifi at bus stops! Woohoo! Means I'll have to bring my laptop tho

KC61 wrote: »

There will be "at stop" displays too...but the internet/text version is coming first....

And before you blame the bus company...that one is the government's fault as they withdrew the funding.

The government is the bus company!

The at stop displays are vital. Anything else is just window dressing.

Zebra3

JHMEG wrote: »

The at stop displays are vital.

Before they come in, there needs to be a new law brought in with serious punishment for vandalising anything to do with public transport.

steve-o

I wonder when will the RPA stop wasting our money on feasibility studies and designs for rubbish Luas routes that should not and will not ever be built?

dowlingm

I'd disagree there actually. One of the problems with infrastructure is if you wait to plan until money is there, the money is often gone again by the time you are ready to act.

In Toronto, the light rail plan is going to be delayed now because the money ran out, but Calgary had plans in their back pocket which they whipped out as soon as the federal government said "if you can spend it, you can have it".

What we should be doing though while waiting for cash to start flowing again is making sure these plans make sense - such as making Metro West an orbital LUAS, interlined and sharing depots with Lines A and F1, and figuring out if the wandering route of F1 is really necessary.

krugerrand

It's no secret that CIE intend rationalising the land use in their Inchicore Works. Much of the Inchicore Works site is under-used or disused and it comprises of about 75 acres. That is the context of the location of the Inchicore Dart Underground Station. The other context is that the ample land provides a location for the turnback facility.

Providing a Luas station next to the Inchicore Dart Underground Station makes a lot of sense to me. Journey times on the Dart from Inchicore to St Stephens Green will be less than 10 minutes. Therefore folks coming to town from Lucan and Ballyer on the Luas will interchange at Inchicore and hop on the high speed Dart to the City Centre.

DWCommuter

krugerrand wrote: »

It's no secret that CIE intend rationalising the land use in their Inchicore Works. Much of the Inchicore Works site is under-used or disused and it comprises of about 75 acres. That is the context of the location of the Inchicore Dart Underground Station. The other context is that the ample land provides a location for the turnback facility.

Providing a Luas station next to the Inchicore Dart Underground Station makes a lot of sense to me. Journey times on the Dart from Inchicore to St Stephens Green will be less than 10 minutes. Therefore folks coming to town from Lucan and Ballyer on the Luas will interchange at Inchicore and hop on the high speed Dart to the City Centre.

Sounds good on paper, but it is heavily dependent on an up turn in the building/development sector.

dowlingm

Detroit is proposing to level districts of the city and return it to parkland, allowing city services such as fire/ambulance/police to cover more people in less area.

How does this apply in Dublin? Level some of the half built estates in the middle of nowhere and build government financed high density housing in places like Inchicore (and the LUAS extension routes too, where the government or local authority owns land).

I'd also propose as an alternative that the DIT centralised campus (with integrated student housing) be built in Inchicore rather than Grangegorman if residential was too big a risk, but the northside pols would freak out at the thought of something like that crossing the river.

FlameoftheWest

dowlingm wrote: »

Detroit is proposing to level districts of the city and return it to parkland, allowing city services such as fire/ambulance/police to cover more people in less area.

How does this apply in Dublin?

Can't be compared at all. Detroit is more like a thrid world bombed out city. The downtown area is basically empty and derelict. I am not surprised they are doing this. Dublin is paradise compared to Detroit.

foggy_lad

Zebra3 wrote: »

Before they come in, there needs to be a new law brought in with serious punishment for vandalising anything to do with public transport.

the laws are only as good as the police enforcing them!

dowlingm wrote: »

Detroit is proposing to level districts of the city and return it to parkland, allowing city services such as fire/ambulance/police to cover more people in less area.

How does this apply in Dublin? Level some of the half built estates in the middle of nowhere and build government financed high density housing in places like Inchicore (and the LUAS extension routes too, where the government or local authority owns land).

I'd also propose as an alternative that the DIT centralised campus (with integrated student housing) be built in Inchicore rather than Grangegorman if residential was too big a risk, but the northside pols would freak out at the thought of something like that crossing the river.

move ballymun flats to inchicore?

Cool Mo D

dowlingm wrote: »

I'd also propose as an alternative that the DIT centralised campus (with integrated student housing) be built in Inchicore rather than Grangegorman if residential was too big a risk, but the northside pols would freak out at the thought of something like that crossing the river.

There's a Luas line planned for the DIT site in Grangegorman, which takes advantage of the old Broadstone railway, and would tie into the Maynooth line, and it's in general a much better location than Inchicore, with more space, closer to the city, and a better site available, so it would be a pretty bad idea to move DIT to Inchicore instead.

dowlingm

But that's my point - it only ties into Luas, and when will Line D get built anyway?

I don't think Inchicore should be social housing - I doubt the area could absorb it and it would just reinforce a swath of poverty from Ballyfermot through the Liberties along Line F - market value housing is the way to go, aimed at younger 2 car households willing to look at either downsizing to one or going zero-car with car-sharing in the building car park. One thing we're seeing in Toronto is redevelopment of all social housing estates from mid-20thC. into part-market value part-social, with the banks and other commercial concerns being drawn in as partners to increase retail footprint.

monument

dowlingm wrote: »

But that's my point - it only ties into Luas, and when will Line D get built anyway?

Possibly long before the Lucan Luas.

The idea behind Line D is generally good and it has good potential for an extension up into Finglas.

dowlingm wrote: »

I'd disagree there actually. One of the problems with infrastructure is if you wait to plan until money is there, the money is often gone again by the time you are ready to act.

In Toronto, the light rail plan is going to be delayed now because the money ran out, but Calgary had plans in their back pocket which they whipped out as soon as the federal government said "if you can spend it, you can have it".

What we should be doing though while waiting for cash to start flowing again is making sure these plans make sense - such as making Metro West an orbital LUAS, interlined and sharing depots with Lines A and F1, and figuring out if the wandering route of F1 is really necessary.

Agreed. There's too little long term planning in Dublin and Ireland in general.

Even if one disagrees with some projects or elements of them, projects should be planned even if they can't be built yet.

HydeRoad wrote: »

Am I the only person in Dublin who is dumbfounded by this route from Lucan to the city, about as far away as possible from anything that makes logical sense?

Even with the traffic problems, you could drive from Lucan to town and back far quicker than any tram would negotiate this tortuous trek through half of south Dublin. When you get in your car, you will drive the most direct route to the city. And that is the way a public service should go, in order to encourage people out of cars. Direct.

Between Liffey Valley and after Ballyfermot Village the route is the most direct route towards town. How much segregation and priority it will get along roads like the Ballyfermot Road is another question. The line then gets diverted south after Ballyfermot Village to the current red line at Backhorse.

Any route along the N4 from Lucan is actually less direct and, more to the point, would be away from all the population centers. Although, if the route after Ballyfermot Village continued down the Ballyfermot Road and then on to the N4 and into the city centre, it would be faster. One stop at the junction of the South Circular Road and St John's Road on the N4 could serve high density areas of Island Bridge and the recent development on and around the Inchicore Road, beside the Hilton Hotel.

If those near the end of the route in Lucan are going into the city centre, they can travel to the Dart stations at Adamstown, Kishoge, and Fonthill.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I am not sure about the route of the Lucan Luas at all. I agree that it will serve Ballyfermot, which is highly populated. However, what is the advantage to those living further out?

Not much AFAIS. I am no engineer or road/public transport designer, but it looks to me that local politics has decided the route.

So if you are living in Lucan, you have to go around the houses (maybe that is the point to hoover up passengers... LOL), and arrive in Dublin City about an hour later. The Bus Corridor from Lucan is good, gets into town in the morning rush about 35minutes (someone correct me, I am talking about the expresso here). It is buslane all the way from Palmerstown to the city centre, one of the best bus corridors I know.

As above those further out and heading directly into town will be able to use the Dart stations at Adamstown, Kishoge, and Fonthill.

And keep in mind that Dart going to Maynooth does not have to mean bus services will be curtailed along the N4. There's some high frequency bus routes along the current Dart line.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

OK lets say the Luas went from Lucan down the spinal route of the N4 and turned up Kylemore Road at Lucan Road junction to join the Red line... the Ballyfermot people would have access, but it wouldn't be a snake taking forever to get to town.

After the maze that is route in Lucan it self, the bit going down the Kylemore Road is a long detour to the red line.

The Ballyfermot Road section of the route is the straight stretch. How well trams run on the road is dependent on the priority and segregation given to the line.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Sorry about the long post, but I thoroughly agree that the towns of Tallaght, Lucan, Clondalkin, and Blanchardstown should be accessible to each other. What about a bus corridor alongside the M50. Probably would make sense with overbridges, but it is probably too sensible!!

Tallaght, Lucan, Clondalkin, and Blanchardstown will be linked by Metro West. It's going to more like be Luas West and it's a project that a lot of people on these boards have a problem with. The project is not without its plus points but it has flaws and, on the other hand, some people thing other lines should have a hight priority than an orbital line.

krugerrand wrote: »

Providing a Luas station next to the Inchicore Dart Underground Station makes a lot of sense to me. Journey times on the Dart from Inchicore to St Stephens Green will be less than 10 minutes. Therefore folks coming to town from Lucan and Ballyer on the Luas will interchange at Inchicore and hop on the high speed Dart to the City Centre.

Yes, with the current route diverting south away from a more directed city centre route after Ballyfermot, the interchange makes a lot of sense.

What does not make sense (from a passenger point-of-view) is is the last stop on the Lucan Luas is left currently unconnected to Adamstown station, when there is just 2km of mostly (still ?) open land in between.