What is your opinion on flamboyant/stereotypical homosexuals?

AlmostFamous

I ask this question out of curiousity because in my case I dislike homosexuals who parade around announcing to the world their sexuality 'cos I don't care what gender they like. I feel it is attention seeking behaviour, to be honest. I'm not sure if it is a minority or majority who act as such. My friend came out to me and he is a true bro and I respect him more than I used to for being so courageous, although it is not public knowledge that he is, and why should it be? He behaves in a non flamboyant manner.

I treat him the same as I always did, I hug him and sometimes slap his ass (usually when I'm drunk) as I do with my other friends. I'm comfortable in my sexuality that the ass slapping isn't anything sexual to me but should I refrain from doing that to my friend? Would it lead him on?

Tricity Bendix

Live and let live. There are all sorts in this world, you can't expect all of them to behave as you would like them to.

Annasopra

AlmostFamous wrote: »

I treat him the same as I always did, I hug him and sometimes slap his ass (usually when I'm drunk) as I do with my other friends. I'm comfortable in my sexuality that the ass slapping isn't anything sexual to me but should I refrain from doing that to my friend? Would it lead him on?

Personally I never slap anyone on the arse but if it is friendly and your friend knows that you do it to everyone else then I see no problem

I ask this question out of curiousity because in my case I dislike homosexuals who parade around announcing to the world their sexuality 'cos I don't care what gender they like. I feel it is attention seeking behaviour, to be honest. I'm not sure if it is a minority or majority who act as such. My friend came out to me and he is a true bro and I respect him more than I used to for being so courageous, although it is not public knowledge that he is, and why should it be? He behaves in a non flamboyant manner.

Why do you like this behaviour so much? What difference does it make to you how other people want to behave?

AlmostFamous

Tricity Bendix wrote: »

Live and let live. There are all sorts in this world, you can't expect all of them to behave as you would like them to.

Yeah, I realise that but what is your opinion of them? Obviously they are entitled to their freedom of expression and all that. But if you are or if you aren't a member of the gay community, do you not think they are bad reflection on that community? Or would they represent a minority/majority of homosexuals.

Do you not think they are part of the problem with the stigma associated with homosexuality because they are "different" as others would see them?

AlmostFamous

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Why do you like this behaviour so much? What difference does it make to you how other people want to behave?

I presume you mean dislike and it doesn't make any difference to me personally but I'm adamant that it creates differences for other people who view it is typical gay behaviour and then this creates difficulties for people coming out and society accepting them. I would almost blame this flamboyant behaviour with the repression of homosexuality (well that, and organised religion) because it used to be widely accepted like it was in Ancient Rome.

reggiews

Ya, iv thought about this myself, i have a large group of close friends and if any of them were gay it wouldnt bother me, although the flamboyant homosexuals which act beyond what you could describe as overly feminine do make me slightly uncomfortable. A gay man wants to have sex with other men....fair enough, i have no problem with that. Perhaps the very flamboyant homosexuals have some of that "woman trapped in a mans body" thing going on, and end up overcompensating with the extreme flamboyance. I apolagise in advance for everyone i have offended with this comment.

Annasopra

AlmostFamous wrote: »

I presume you mean dislike and it doesn't make any difference to me personally but I'm adamant that it creates differences for other people who view it is typical gay behaviour and then this creates difficulties for people coming out and society accepting them. I would almost blame this flamboyant behaviour with the repression of homosexuality (well that, and organised religion) because it used to be widely accepted like it was in Ancient Rome.

Yes I did mean dislike - So your view is that you want gay people to be accepted but only if they behave in a certain way?

AlmostFamous

Johnnymcg wrote: »

So your view is that you want gay people to be accepted but only if they behave in a certain way?

I'm afraid that was not the point I was making, you must have misinterpreted what I meant and then went about questioning me in a very blunt and simplified manner.

People have the right to express themselves as they wish. I'm just making the point that behaviour of certain flamboyant homosexuals has negative repercussions for the rest of the gay community and I would like to get peoples' opinions on this.

Annasopra

AlmostFamous wrote: »

I'm afraid that was not the point I was making, you must have misinterpreted what I meant and then went about questioning me in a very blunt and simplified manner.

People have the right to express themselves as they wish. I'm just making the point that behaviour of certain flamboyant homosexuals has negative repercussions for the rest of the gay community and I would like to get peoples' opinions on this.

I have no problem with the behaviour of the vast majority of gay people - I don't particularly understand why other people do have a problem with peoples behaviour and I really object to people telling us that all LGBT people must act the same as all straight people, I am not flamboyant, effeminate, camp - I am a non stereotype, but if people want to act camp or effeminate or flamboyant - I will always defend the right of people to be themselves and really I don't see the problem - Is it that society is dictating that people must not act this way? In my view that is totally wrong

thirtythirty

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Yes I did mean dislike - So your view is that you want gay people to be accepted but only if they behave in a certain way?

I'd like to jump in here if that's alright, as I don't think he's articulating his point very well.

I know exactly what he's talking about. I've a couple gay friends who range from being "a lad's lad" right up to being pretty damn camp. But i think there's an important distinction between being legitimately camp, and overtly and actively flamboyant.

With massive flamboyance comes irritation, and its just plain annoying. I really don't like it. Everything is surrounded in drama, even with simple tasks like getting a glass of water. Humour is normally localised to themselves and generally no one else finds the jokes funny, and the whole charade just smacks of attention seeking tbh.

Even "extremely camp" can carry a personality and you know what the person's like and everything else that goes in hand with "a personality". Extreme flamboyance cannot, and the reason the stereotypical image is then drawn up is because of the fact that extremely flamboyant people all seem to talk, act, and think exactly the same, so it becomes possible to draw up this characature of "a gay person" that everyone agrees on and quite honestly, or at least in my experience, don't like.

And that is my little summary of why i (personally) don't like extreme flamboyance (as a guide i'm talking about the main guy with the shaved head from pineapple dance studios on sky!).

Boston

I encountered a country girl the other day. It was obvious to me in a dozen ways that she was a country girl, and the minute she opened her mouth I knew she was from limerick. I feel it is attention seeking behaviour, to be honest. I'm not sure if it is a minority or majority who act as such but it's definitely something I've picked up on. What is it about country people that they feel the need to set themselves a part from the rest of us dubs? Why can't they get with the program? I know I'd feel more comfortable if everyone looked, talked and acted like me.

People get louder and exasperate certain characteristics when drunk in bars. But the rest of the time they are just themselves. I've been around enough camp, flamboyant and effeminate gay men to know it's seldom an act. Many would dearly love to be more hetronormative.

Tricity Bendix

AlmostFamous wrote: »

Yeah, I realise that but what is your opinion of them? Obviously they are entitled to their freedom of expression and all that. But if you are or if you aren't a member of the gay community, do you not think they are bad reflection on that community? Or would they represent a minority/majority of homosexuals.

I actually don't know if they are a minority or a majority. And frankly, I can't bring myself to care. I think if people are living their life the way they want to and expressing themselves as they see fit (without hurting anyone else) then they aren't just a good reflection on "the community", but a good reflection on Irish society as a whole.

Do you not think they are part of the problem with the stigma associated with homosexuality because they are "different" as others would see them?

Nope. The only problem with the stigma associated with homosexuality are the bigots who attach the stigma in the first place.

kisaragi

My opinion on flamboyant/stereotypical homosexuals really depends on much more than how camp they are. I don't have a problem with campness in itself though, I even enjoy it.

anotherlostie

I don't care if they are stereotypical or not as long as they are not obnoxious - you can be very camp and very endearing, but you can also be a total prat.

What I do object to is people telling you that you aren't a proper gay if you aren't flamboyant and 'out there' to all and sundry. I know there are people that judge me for keeping my sexuality discreet (while not in the closet), yet scream if someone says they don't like the flamboyant stereotypes. I have a partner, I socialise on the scene, my friends all know, but why should everyone I work with have to know? But I'm doing a disservice to gay people by living like that apparently.

Goodshape

Two things I don't like, one is this --

anotherlostie wrote: »

people telling you that you aren't a proper gay if you aren't flamboyant and 'out there' to all and sundry.

and yup, it happens often enough.

The other is the assumptions people jump to when I do "come out" to them, because all they're aware of is the stereotype.

As for people actually being camp -- no, I don't mind that at all. Each to their own.

ding-dong

Hey AlmostFamous, I used to have the same thought process as you! The truth is if you are so bothered by physical mannerisms/accents, then you may need to get out more. If you're talking about individual personalities that you find abrasive and think they are a product of homosexuality, then just consider your own friend and realise that this is just not the case. I know loads of annoying heterosexual jerks, don't you? What is your opinion on stereotypical heterosexuals?

unreggd

The other question in this thread is wether or not OTT campness is natural or an act


Personally, I find most campness annoying / cringeworthy
But I wouldnt hold it against anyone personally

Kanoe

unreggd wrote: »

The other question in this thread is wether or not OTT campness is natural or an act

not sure what's meant by natural but I think it's organic in the sense that its a gradual development of the persona in a certain environment
When I was younger I tried desperately to shake off traits that were without doubt inherent, because by my teenage years it just wasn't acceptable among my peers. (god forbid they might have thought I was gay) I tried to have relationships with men and even became a mother (single) and between here and there those qualities have disappeared so much that people have difficulty accepting that I am at this point. I think all the qualities that make me who I am today are a product of motherhood - and had I continued to be who I was I would probably be considered the card carrying stereotype
In saying that I'm glad of who I've turned out to be.

I also have a friend who came out after several years of marriage and who was up until that point very subtle and now two years on could give Graham Norton a run for his money.

Coeurdepirate

To be perfectly honest, I sort of agree with the OP... Although I don't have a problem with flamboyant gays, I don't see why they won't get a sex change if they feel more comfortable acting effeminate.
However, what I DO have a problem with is the way so many straight people expect for all gays to act like that. I'm gay and in Secondary School, and not flamboyant, yet so many people expect me to start prancing around with a hangbag singing songs from Annie.

So really, I don't have a problem with flamboyant gays, moreso with how to straight people, flamboyancy is some genetic trait that all gay people have.

Links234

Coeurdepirate wrote: »

I don't see why they won't get a sex change if they feel more comfortable acting effeminate.

I don't see why gender expression has to be so black & white. In fact, the attitude that men must be completely masculine and women must be completely feminine is something I find a bit disturbing. Some men are feminine, some women are masculine, and that doesn't mean they should get a sex change just because of how they act. There's feminine straight men out there who are perfectly ok with their genders you know? Fitting male and female into rigid roles with strict codes about how they can and cannot act just doesn't work.

It always saddens me to see LGBT people to say that non-standard gender expression is not ok.

Coeurdepirate

Links234 wrote: »

I don't see why gender expression has to be so black & white. In fact, the attitude that men must be completely masculine and women must be completely feminine is something I find a bit disturbing. Some men are feminine, some women are masculine, and that doesn't mean they should get a sex change just because of how they act. There's feminine straight men out there who are perfectly ok with their genders you know? Fitting male and female into rigid roles with strict codes about how they can and cannot act just doesn't work.

It always saddens me to see LGBT people to say that non-standard gender expression is not ok.

I really didn't intend to be so blunt about it, but it's my opinion. I really don't see why men will act 'girly' and women will act 'manly' without a wish to be a woman, or a man. I'm not saying that men should be masculine, or that women should be feminine, but why else would they act that way if they didn't want it?
I mean, it's a well known fact that flamboyant gays and masculine girls get some stick even within the LGBT community, and (i know, i'm completely repeating myself) I really don't see why they'd subject themselves to it, if it's not what they wanted.

rainbow kirby

Links234 wrote: »

It always saddens me to see LGBT people to say that non-standard gender expression is not ok.

+1

Coeurdepirate wrote: »

I mean, it's a well known fact that flamboyant gays and masculine girls get some stick even within the LGBT community, and (i know, i'm completely repeating myself) I really don't see why they'd subject themselves to it, if it's not what they wanted.

Some people just do happen to be naturally more "stereotypical" than others. I'm one of those - a relatively masculine-presenting girl, it's just the way I am and I've never been anything different. Such is life.

Annasopra

Coeurdepirate wrote: »

I really didn't intend to be so blunt about it, but it's my opinion. I really don't see why men will act 'girly' and women will act 'manly' without a wish to be a woman, or a man. I'm not saying that men should be masculine, or that women should be feminine, but why else would they act that way if they didn't want it?
I mean, it's a well known fact that flamboyant gays and masculine girls get some stick even within the LGBT community, and (i know, i'm completely repeating myself) I really don't see why they'd subject themselves to it, if it's not what they wanted.

I don't understand this at all - First of all you use the word act - I don't see someone expressing themselves and expressing their personalities as 'acting' - Secondly your assumption that every person who has gender characteristics that might not be perceived to match their gender really wants to be another gender is frankly bizarre - Let me put it this way 'you fancy men - do you want to be a woman?'

Dwn Wth Vwls

Coeurdepirate wrote: »

I'm not saying that men should be masculine, or that women should be feminine, but why else would they act that way if they didn't want it?

Isn't that exactly what you're saying? You're suggesting an extreme change to their life, physically, financially, socially, emotionally, so that only men will "act manly" and only women will "act girly". I presume you don't realise how ridiculous (and perhaps insulting) a suggestion this is.

These people are just being themselves, and they simply don't conform to the standard. Do you seriously think they're just putting it on? Why would they? They're "subjecting themselves to it" because they don't want to live a lie and pretend to be something they're not just to fit in. Why should they have to act a certain way?

You're in secondary school so you're dealing with teenagers like yourself. Many of them may have never met someone who is gay but not flamboyant before, simply because the flamboyant people are more noticeable. It's undoubtedly frustrating dealing with ignorance, but the only way to educate people is to just continue being yourself and they'll learn soon enough. I'm sure you'll also learn more about it all when you meet more gay people.

shay_562

Coeurdepirate wrote: »

...so many people expect me to start prancing around with a hangbag singing songs from Annie.

When really, dahling, Wicked is so much more au courant.

Re: the above, I dunno. There's definitely some people who play up to the stereotype. Having known people before and after they've come out, many (especially the ones who surround themselves entirely with gay friends and 'fag hags') become flamboyant to the point of it seeming ridiculous. It's impossible to tell how much of it is them expressing how they've felt all along and how much is them feeling pressure within the community to conform to a stereotype, but to discount the latter effect entirely and say "They're just being themselves!" strikes me as being wilfully blind.

There's also, to my mind, a difference between flamboyance and effiminacy. The latter is, simplistically, being 'girly' - in mannerism, in tastes and so on. The former is being 'loud', and while there's often some crossover between the two, they aren't the same thing. I find flamboyance quite annoying, because I find loud, obnoxious people annoying. It's not me treating gay people any differently - I find the group of bitchy teenage wannabes in the George as annoying as the shrieking hen party in Templebar. I simply have a low tolerance for wreck-the-heads.

Link234 wrote:

It always saddens me to see LGBT people to say that non-standard gender expression is not ok.

Why is that? There's a difference between issues of sexual orientation and issues of gender identity, and I always find something kinda weird about the assumption that because you're gay, you should be ultra-tolerant and accepting of anything that remotely constitutes a diversion from gender norms. I'm fully supportive of people's rights to do stuff, yeah, but that doesn't mean that I don't find something weird about, say, gay people who go to saunas, or straight people who engage in dogging, or drag kings/queens. Believing that they should be allowed to do stuff doesn't mean full-on acceptance of everything, ever, and for reasons that I find hard to articulate, I dislike the enforced-tolerance, "We're all in it together!" attitude that sometimes gets adopted by the LGBT community. Sexuality aside, we're often very, very different people.

Dwn Wth Vwls

shay_562 wrote: »

It's impossible to tell how much of it is them expressing how they've felt all along and how much is them feeling pressure within the community to conform to a stereotype, but to discount the latter effect entirely and say "They're just being themselves!" strikes me as being wilfully blind.

Oh yeah, that's true too of course. I tend to forget about those people because I don't know any.

DubArk

AlmostFamous wrote: »

Yeah, I realise that but what is your opinion of them? Obviously they are entitled to their freedom of expression and all that. But if you are or if you aren't a member of the gay community, do you not think they are bad reflection on that community? Or would they represent a minority/majority of homosexuals.

Do you not think they are part of the problem with the stigma associated with homosexuality because they are "different" as others would see them?

Gay people come in every shape, size, colour and creed …. ugly, beautiful and sometime down right plain!

How anyone could think that camp, flamboyant and effeminate Gays are reprehensive of all Gays just has been locked up in some bog hole for far too long. Television/Media these days represents all the different facets of Homosexual life in the 21st century.

My attitude is, if it annoys you so much, then get anger management or hang out with different friends.
Otherwise build a bridge and get over it!

Links234

shay_562 wrote: »

Re: the above, I dunno. There's definitely some people who play up to the stereotype. Having known people before and after they've come out, many (especially the ones who surround themselves entirely with gay friends and 'fag hags') become flamboyant to the point of it seeming ridiculous. It's impossible to tell how much of it is them expressing how they've felt all along and how much is them feeling pressure within the community to conform to a stereotype, but to discount the latter effect entirely and say "They're just being themselves!" strikes me as being wilfully blind.

And you know it's also probably impossible to tell that the more typically masculine acting aren't putting on an act and playing up to a masculine stereotype either. Is that really how they've felt all along, or is it pressure both from within the gay community and outside of it not to act effeminate, camp or flamboyant? Especially with prevalent attitudes that it's OK for people to hate the gay men who show those qualities, it makes me wonder how often the gay men who are ever so vocal about not being a "stereotypical gay" are really doing just what you accuse others of?

It strikes me as being willfully blind to view one type of gender expression as normative and another as purely an act, conforming or playing up. God knows, during my denial I felt enormous pressure to put up a constant facade of masculinity. I also know some straight friends who act quite differently when they're in the pub, soft spoken and relaxed only to become gruffer and more aggressive with the lads. One friend in particular is a very sensitive person, wonderfully caring and willing to listen, very intelligent and has a lot to say about current events, but out in the pub he's just a completely different person, I can't even talk to him because all he wants to talk about then is football. There's a degree of conformity to a lot of masculine behavior, and I see that in straight friends all the time.

Am I saying that all gay people who aren't camp, effeminate or flamboyant are putting on an act and conforming to pressure? No, not at all. If that's you just being yourself, then great. But if you're going to speak out against other gay people for how they express themselves, if you're going to say it's all an act, that it's all pretense, well.. people in glass houses my friend. And I really do wonder sometimes about people who feel the need to so vocally set themselves apart from "the stereotype", I wonder if they're really just another stereotype themselves.

And you know what else kinda worries me about this constant putting down of "stereotypical gays"? It says that it's ok to be gay as long as nobody can perceive you to be gay, and that's not really acceptance or tolerance, that's just people being able to bury their heads in the sand. That's people not caring because they don't see it. And that's very, very far from acceptance.

shay_562 wrote: »

I dislike the enforced-tolerance, "We're all in it together!" attitude that sometimes gets adopted by the LGBT community. Sexuality aside, we're often very, very different people.

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me —
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

Chuchoter

I think stereotypically gay people are generally either that way from birth and have been covering it up or its the whole excitement about being newly out. I honestly don't care. Its more the media that perpetrates bad stereotypes by only putting super camp men on TV, which would be fine, but on top of that they are bitchy and have no personality, which is not true of real people.

To be honest I have more of a problem with people wearing leather and no clothes at pride....I know I sound like Brenda Power *eek!* but leather/no clothes is not an orientation or a gender identity. I think people like that who go out of their way to be absolute weirdos just so they can get on TV or get a picture in the paper do a lot of harm to young people not out who see that as what gay is, and if they are not like that then they must not be gay.

Annasopra

shay_562 wrote: »

Why is that? There's a difference between issues of sexual orientation and issues of gender identity, and I always find something kinda weird about the assumption that because you're gay, you should be ultra-tolerant and accepting of anything that remotely constitutes a diversion from gender norms.

Being gay is in itself a diversion from gender norms

wonderfulname

AlmostFamous wrote: »

I ask this question out of curiousity because in my case I dislike homosexuals who parade around announcing to the world their sexuality 'cos I don't care what gender they like. I feel it is attention seeking behaviour, to be honest. I'm not sure if it is a minority or majority who act as such. My friend came out to me and he is a true bro and I respect him more than I used to for being so courageous, although it is not public knowledge that he is, and why should it be? He behaves in a non flamboyant manner.

I treat him the same as I always did, I hug him and sometimes slap his ass (usually when I'm drunk) as I do with my other friends. I'm comfortable in my sexuality that the ass slapping isn't anything sexual to me but should I refrain from doing that to my friend? Would it lead him on?

For some people it is them and thats ok.
But I find a lot of people around my age (19) fall back on 80s stereotypes, I think its a comfort thing but it saddens me.
Has any one seen the McCaul twins since they came out? That sort of thing..

And as for your friend thinking your coming on to him, does every female friend you make a joke with think your coming on to them? Exactly! Homosexual means you like the same sex, not all of the same sex, common mistake that..