What is your opinion on flamboyant/stereotypical homosexuals?

shay_562

Links234 wrote:

And you know it's also probably impossible to tell that the more typically masculine acting aren't putting on an act and playing up to a masculine stereotype either. Is that really how they've felt all along, or is it pressure both from within the gay community and outside of it not to act effeminate, camp or flamboyant? Especially with prevalent attitudes that it's OK for people to hate the gay men who show those qualities, it makes me wonder how often the gay men who are ever so vocal about not being a "stereotypical gay" are really doing just what you accuse others of?

It strikes me as being willfully blind to view one type of gender expression as normative and another as purely an act, conforming or playing up. God knows, during my denial I felt enormous pressure to put up a constant facade of masculinity. I also know some straight friends who act quite differently when they're in the pub, soft spoken and relaxed only to become gruffer and more aggressive with the lads. One friend in particular is a very sensitive person, wonderfully caring and willing to listen, very intelligent and has a lot to say about current events, but out in the pub he's just a completely different person, I can't even talk to him because all he wants to talk about then is football. There's a degree of conformity to a lot of masculine behavior, and I see that in straight friends all the time.

Am I saying that all gay people who aren't camp, effeminate or flamboyant are putting on an act and conforming to pressure? No, not at all. If that's you just being yourself, then great. But if you're going to speak out against other gay people for how they express themselves, if you're going to say it's all an act, that it's all pretense, well.. people in glass houses my friend. And I really do wonder sometimes about people who feel the need to so vocally set themselves apart from "the stereotype", I wonder if they're really just another stereotype themselves.

Fair point to say that there are 'masculine' people, gay and straight, whose personalities are shaped by more general societal norms, but I don't think that in any way undermines what I was saying. I wasn't suggesting that "it's all an act", I was saying that some flamboyant gay people derive some of that flamboyance from community pressures. If I find flamboyant gay people more annoying than uber-masculine gay people, it's more because they tend to be louder (and therefore harder to ignore) than because their falseness is any worse than other people's falseness.

And you know what else kinda worries me about this constant putting down of "stereotypical gays"? It says that it's ok to be gay as long as nobody can perceive you to be gay, and that's not really acceptance or tolerance, that's just people being able to bury their heads in the sand. That's people not caring because they don't see it. And that's very, very far from acceptance.

Or it says that in general, there are societal norms that tend against displaying one's sexuality or being just kinda gross about stuff. Straight guys who talk about nothing but tits and shagging annoy me. Gay guys who talk about nothing but how gay they are annoy me. If I judge a guy for wearing a "ReadthiswhileIstareatyourtits" t-shirt, why shouldn't I judge a girl wearing a "Nobody Knows I'm A Lesbian" equivalent? (Granted, the former is slightly more pervy, and I actually find the latter t-shirts kinda funny, but still...)

Links234 wrote:

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me —
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

I'm willing to accept that I'm a judgemental misanthrope, but whipping out Nazi comparisons this easily is just childish, and the smiley face doesn't make it any less offensive.

Johnnymcg wrote:

Being gay is in itself a diversion from gender norms

Yes, but there's a scale. Liking someone of the same gender is one diversion. Wearing non-gender-conforming clothing is another. Your hair, your taste in music, whether or not you like sports, what you drink in bars - all of these are things that have some level of gender norm attached to them, and the presumption that because a gay person differs in one they must be totally OK with differing in all doesn't sit right with me, particularly when enforced in a weird "You're one of us, so you must think like us" way. I may fancy guys, but I will never, ever, ever accept that men wearing skinny jeans aren't an abomination against God and nature.

Links234

shay_562 wrote: »

Or it says that in general, there are societal norms that tend against displaying one's sexuality or being just kinda gross about stuff. Straight guys who talk about nothing but tits and shagging annoy me. Gay guys who talk about nothing but how gay they are annoy me. If I judge a guy for wearing a "ReadthiswhileIstareatyourtits" t-shirt, why shouldn't I judge a girl wearing a "Nobody Knows I'm A Lesbian" equivalent? (Granted, the former is slightly more pervy, and I actually find the latter t-shirts kinda funny, but still...)

I'm not talking about people who are being obnoxious about their sexuality or people who talk about sex all the time and you know it.

shay_562 wrote: »

I'm willing to accept that I'm a judgemental misanthrope, but whipping out Nazi comparisons this easily is just childish, and the smiley face doesn't make it any less offensive.

On another forum someone asked "Why the T in LGBT?"
Perhaps the most saddening truth of it is as one person said, homosexuals and transsexuals tend to get beaten up and murdered by the same kind of people. The people who murdered Brandon Teena were the same kind of people who murdered Matthew Sheppard. So you're right, maybe the "We're in this together" attitude isn't because of really having anything in common, but because we face the same dangers and prejudices and discrimination.

There's an extremely worrying trend for gay people to drop other parts of the LGBT movement or outright pretend they don't exist when it suits them or their agenda. The Employment Non-Discrimination Act in America for example, plenty of gay activists were happy to drop the sections covering discrimination based on gender identity if it meant the act would pass with less opposition. And when police in Pakistan broke up the wedding of a transgender woman and jailed the couple, there were lots of gay people who felt the need to erase the identity of the woman and claim it was a gay marriage, just like the Pakistani government did.

I don't know what it is, maybe some people think that some elements of the LGBT community are beneath them now? But really, we are all in this together because historically we always have been. When gay people were being jailed for their sexual orientation, it didn't matter if they were the flamboyant annoying gays that you don't like or the 'normal' masculine acting gays, they all got locked away the same. And just in the same way that transsexuality has been considered a mental disorder, so once was homosexuality having been listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders up until 1980. We're in this together because to the people who hate us, we're all the same freaks, abominations, deviants and mental cases..
To Fred Phelps and his cronies we're all fags.

After Angie Zapata's murderer was jailed for beating her to death with a fire extinguisher, he said "Gay things must die!"
15 year old Larry King was shot in the head twice because he was gay and acted effeminate.
To these murderers, we are all the same.

And I think when members of the LGBT community come along with the attitude that it's OK to hate the camp, the effeminate, the butch, the people with non-standard gender expression. That just enables more hatred because you're sending a message. The bigots will just take their queue from that.

So no, I'm not whipping out a nazi comparison, I'm making a point of why we're in this together, and why you should be accepting and tolerant of different types of gender expression. That's why I posted the Martin Niemoller poem, to remind you of why the so-called "enforced tolerance" as you put it exists.

See, to them, you're just another freak... like me! :pac:

shay_562

Links234 wrote: »

I'm not talking about people who are being obnoxious about their sexuality or people who talk about sex all the time and you know it.

...do I? The OP referred to "homosexuals who parade around announcing to the world their sexuality"; definitions of flamboyance may vary, but I was very much under the impression that we were talking about people who are extreme in their personal expression of their sexual identity.

Links234 wrote:

On another forum someone asked "Why the T in LGBT?"
Perhaps the most saddening truth of it is as one person said, homosexuals and transsexuals tend to get beaten up and murdered by the same kind of people...

...See, to them, you're just another freak... like me! :pac:

OK, so the same group of people hate us all. And to them, it doesn't matter how stereotypical or not any gay person is, any deviation from the norm is enough to warrant a "God Hates Fags" sign, so yeah, I get in that sense why we all push for the same stuff in terms of legal rights. I can also see where you're coming from on the whole 'employment rights' thing (though I think there's just as much of an argument to be made that the activists in question were perfectly entitled to push for what they saw as 'their' community first; that's getting off the point, though) But why does that mean acceptance and tolerance on a personal level? You're telling me why I should support rights for transgendered people and flamboyant gay people. I already do. What I want to know is why that entails me not finding excessive flamboyance annoying. This diversion started because you posted that "It saddens [you] to see LGBT people to say that non-standard gender expression is not ok"; what I want to know is why that shouldn't be the case? There's a gulf between supporting legal freedoms and what you personally think about other people who are some class of LGB or T, and I don't know why commonality in the former seems, in some people's minds, to mean happy-clappy-everyone-get-along in the latter? There's something creepy and more than a little oxymoronic in the phrase 'enforced tolerance'.

And I'd still maintain that quoting a poem about apathy in the face of Nazi suppression at someone who you perceive as intolerant amounts to "whipping out a Nazi comparison"; I honestly don't know how you can see it as anything else.

baby and crumble

I kind of agree with both sides of this- I appreciate and understand, and support anyone who is straight, gay or transgendered to be themselves entirely, and for some men that means being very flambouyant, for some women it means scowling and liking sports. Stereotypes have to come from somewhere!

But I also think that just because I support someones rights to be who they are, doesn't mean I have to like it, and even agree with it. I personally don't understand trangendered issues. I just don't get it, and tbh I sometimes think that transgendered issues have no place in the lgb camp, because it's being transgendered is not a sexuality. But at the same time I'm not going to think someone is 'wrong' for transitioning their body to match up with their mind.

Likewise, I find the character traits of effeminate, camp men grating. Just like I find the character traits of 'girly girls' grating. It's just MY personality.

it boils down to the same thing I deal with in my line of work. I work with people with intellectual disabilities, and so many people who have very little contact with PWID fall into one of 2 camps. Either they think they're completely abnormal and have nothign good to say, or they think everyone with a disability is 'sweet' and 'precious'. Yes, a lot of people with disabilities are lovely people. But I've met a lot of w*!kers who have disabilities. It would be wrong of me to stand there going 'Ah, they're all lovely!' when I can't stand being in the same room as them because of their personality.

And that's what it gets down to: personality. Some people find other people really, really annoying. That's life. It only gets dodgy when you won't even allow yourself the possibility of being wrong- maybe someday I'll meet a gay guy who's super super camp and he'll become a great friend. Who knows?

Nevyn

shay_562 wrote: »

Why is that? There's a difference between issues of sexual orientation and issues of gender identity, and I always find something kinda weird about the assumption that because you're gay, you should be ultra-tolerant and accepting of anything that remotely constitutes a diversion from gender norms. I'm fully supportive of people's rights to do stuff, yeah, but that doesn't mean that I don't find something weird about, say, gay people who go to saunas, or straight people who engage in dogging, or drag kings/queens.

Believing that they should be allowed to do stuff doesn't mean full-on acceptance of everything, ever, and for reasons that I find hard to articulate, I dislike the enforced-tolerance, "We're all in it together!" attitude that sometimes gets adopted by the LGBT community. Sexuality aside, we're often very, very different people.

Oh look Homonormativity rises it's ugly head again.

Being gender queer doesn't mean a person is gay or that they are transgendered, it just means that their mannerism don't fall inline with people's binary assumptions of what a man is and what a woman is and how to behave.

Gender queer is queer, we are here we are queer get over it and stop trying to divide up lgbt people into little segments where community is harder to find and it also makes it harder to lobbby for change.

Like you said they are your issues, go figure them out and deal with them rather then trying to shun or push away thing and people which make you uncomfortable due to your issues.

Links234

shay_562 wrote: »

...do I? The OP referred to "homosexuals who parade around announcing to the world their sexuality"; definitions of flamboyance may vary, but I was very much under the impression that we were talking about people who are extreme in their personal expression of their sexual identity.

Well first of all, I came into the discussion after this point, so if you're following the thread at all, you know I'm not responding directly to the OP.
And second, some people might take simple things like certain mannerisms, speech patterns, ways of dress or hairstyle as "announcing to the world their sexuality".

shay_562 wrote: »

But why does that mean acceptance and tolerance on a personal level? You're telling me why I should support rights for transgendered people and flamboyant gay people. I already do. What I want to know is why that entails me not finding excessive flamboyance annoying. This diversion started because you posted that "It saddens [you] to see LGBT people to say that non-standard gender expression is not ok"; what I want to know is why that shouldn't be the case? There's a gulf between supporting legal freedoms and what you personally think about other people who are some class of LGB or T, and I don't know why commonality in the former seems, in some people's minds, to mean happy-clappy-everyone-get-along in the latter?

Maybe because I think people shouldn't be belittled by their own community? That they shouldn't be humiliated by other LGBT people? That they shouldn't be hated because of the manner in which they express themselves? Because someone who isn't hurting anyone by how they walk or talk doesn't deserve the kind of scorn they get. Maybe because if you're gay, you should have a little more empathy towards other LGBT people, because if you don't, who else will? Maybe I don't like to see attitudes that can hurt people and make them feel ostracized in their own community.
Or you know, maybe I see all of this effecting me in the long term?

wonderfulname

To be honest I'm not a big "community" person, I've always wanted to live my own life in a manner not dictated by sexuality, LGBT is something I don't overly get (Yes I see the irony when I'm drawn to this forum!). And even coming from that position I am absolutely disgusted to see things such as

There's a gulf between supporting legal freedoms and what you personally think about other people who are some class of LGB or T, and I don't know why commonality in the former seems, in some people's minds, to mean happy-clappy-everyone-get-along in the latter?

and

because I support someones rights to be who they are, doesn't mean I have to like it

Everyone here understands what its like to be part of a minority, everyone here knows the feeling of hearing something like "Oh I don't mind what they do on their own they just better not come over to me", Its disheartening, you think, is this what acceptance is? Everyone is equal, and that doesn't just refer to future rights or legislation, and its the people who are sometimes viewed as that little bit less equal, who listen to the casual unintended insults of the uninformed who should understand what hurt that little detachment can cause.

baby and crumble

^^ So does that mean I have to agree with everything everyone does?

I'm not Catholic, and I find people praying to statues/ with rosary beads weird, and I don't agree with it, but why am I not allowed say that? It's ridiculous to be expected to like and agree with everything everyone does as part of their daily lives. I don't understand praying with rosary beads, I don't 'get' praying to saints, but I fully support people who do to do that. Just like I would never expect all people to understand by being a lesbian- I have friends who don't really like it as part of my personality, but they like ME.

It's so hypocritical to say 'we all have to get along and support each other', and then those same people make life difficult for everyone else by MAKING people assume we're all the same. That is what makes it difficult for straight people to see us as individuals, because, for example, we ALL like going out every weekend getting smashed and shagging strangers.

It really ticks me off. I would NEVER dream of slagging someone off about transitioning, I think it's an incredibly brave thing to do. BUT at the same time I'm not going to say "oh, yeah, i totally understand it", because I don't. Would it not be worse if we all went around lying? I also do not belittle someone for their personal tics, be that having tourettes, the fact they constantly play with their hair, or them being overly flambouyant. WHat I am saying is that it's ludicrous to expect all of us in the 'non straight' community to all like each other. It's NEVER going to happen. At least be upfront about it. Support each other, yes, but that never has to mean you have to like everything about each other.

Barna77

Hmmm... can of worms....

Coeurdepirate wrote: »

However, what I DO have a problem with is the way so many straight people expect for all gays to act like that.

+1

And that's why I find campness quite irritating. I was in a club in Dublin a couple of months ago and I had to leave the place. It was so overwhelmingly camp that I couldn't stand it. of course I won't kill a gay guy for being camp, but it is something that it's not my style. I don't feel the need of shouting to the world that I'm gay.

Sorry if I offend someone but that's what I think.

Another thing, I came out to a friend recently and she told me now she could talk with me about hot guys... wtf? No way.

Nevyn

again being gender queer doesn't mean you are trangendered.

Annasopra

Barna77 wrote: »

Hmmm... can of worms....


+1

And that's why I find campness quite irritating. I was in a club in Dublin a couple of months ago and I had to leave the place. It was so overwhelmingly camp that I couldn't stand it. of course I won't kill a gay guy for being camp, but it is something that it's not my style. I don't feel the need of shouting to the world that I'm gay.

Sorry if I offend someone but that's what I think.

Another thing, I came out to a friend recently and she told me now she could talk with me about hot guys... wtf? No way.

Are you for real? The post you're quoting is suggesting that effeminate men and butch men should just go and get a sex change - Do you agree with this?

Barna77

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Are you for real? The post you're quoting is suggesting that effeminate men and butch men should just go and get a sex change - Do you agree with this?

Jesus, I missed that. Of course I don't.

My apologies.

Edited my post.

wonderfulname

zoegh wrote: »

I'm not Catholic, and I find people praying to statues/ with rosary beads weird, and I don't agree with it, but why am I not allowed say that? It's ridiculous to be expected to like and agree with everything everyone does as part of their daily lives. I don't understand praying with rosary beads, I don't 'get' praying to saints, but I fully support people who do to do that. Just like I would never expect all people to understand by being a lesbian- I have friends who don't really like it as part of my personality, but they like ME.

Then you should understand this key difference;

catholicism = choice

sexuality/gender identity = no choice

Neither of these is what makes a person or their personality. Also nobody is making anyone believe anything, there was a time when anyone with issues with gender identity were viewed as a sort of Extreme-Gay (coming soon to a store near you) or something of that nature, the majority of people now know different.

Neither of these would ever form a basis for my liking or disliking of someone. Indeed neither of these should be an issue at all, thats how equality should work not this PC crap but anyway.. I'm beginning to think your just being a little too free with words, liking something and agreeing with it are two very different things in this context.

Barna77 wrote:

she told me now she could talk with me about hot guys... wtf? No way.

This I get, straight men think about women so much differently to me! I wish they didn't suddenly feel so comfortable, note to any straight men reading: Lesbians do not want to look at the porn stash on your phone, they will not identify with "snow white does7dwarves" or anything like it.

Dammit off topic again, especially when that doesn't seem to be your issue at all..

Links234

You know, on the subject of effeminate men/butch women just getting sex changes. Johnnymcg said something interesting earlier on along the lines of "if you like men why don't you just be a woman?"

Did you know that in Iran homosexuality is punishable by death but sex changes are condoned? Many gay men feel that transition is their only option, and undergo hormone treatment and genital reassignment surgery not because they are transgender but because it's either that or death. Be Like Others is a film about transsexuality in Iran.

Dr. Baltar

Links234 wrote: »

You know, on the subject of effeminate men/butch women just getting sex changes. Johnnymcg said something interesting earlier on along the lines of "if you like men why don't you just be a woman?"

Did you know that in Iran homosexuality is punishable by death but sex changes are condoned? Many gay men feel that transition is their only option, and undergo hormone treatment and genital reassignment surgery not because they are transgender but because it's either that or death. Be Like Others is a film about transsexuality in Iran.

I've heard about that practice and the idea is absolutely revolting to me.
Sexuality and gender are absolutely different. I may be attracted to males, but I also identify 100% as a male. Even effeminite men who are gay will feel 100% man.

Links234

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

I've heard about that practice and the idea is absolutely revolting to me.
Sexuality and gender are absolutely different. I may be attracted to males, but I also identify 100% as a male. Even effeminite men who are gay will feel 100% man.

I know, it is pretty horrific.
Even as someone who desperately wants a sex change herself, I think that a sex change for the wrong reasons is nothing short of mutilation. For someone who is comfortable with their physical sex to have that changed... I know what torture it is to be at odds with your body, and I wouldn't wish that pain on anyone.
Thank god I wasn't born in Iran, I'm attracted to females and I identify as female, I'd be screwed! Either pick a gender or sexuality I'm not happy with. No thanks!

baby and crumble

Then you should understand this key difference;

catholicism = choice

sexuality/gender identity = no choice

Neither of these is what makes a person or their personality. Also nobody is making anyone believe anything, there was a time when anyone with issues with gender identity were viewed as a sort of Extreme-Gay (coming soon to a store near you) or something of that nature, the majority of people now know different.

Neither of these would ever form a basis for my liking or disliking of someone. Indeed neither of these should be an issue at all, thats how equality should work not this PC crap but anyway.. I'm beginning to think your just being a little too free with words, liking something and agreeing with it are two very different things in this context.

The original question was what is your opinion on flamboyant gay people. I don't like the typical flamboyant gay actions that some gay guys have. Just like I don't particularly like the ridiculous cliquey-ness I have experienced, by and large, in the lesbian community in Ireland. Not only do I find it hard to believe that gay men, in general, 'just act like that'- i think some of it may be 'put on' (for lack of a better word) because it's what society expects, which is a whole other issue. BUT what I do is simply avoid people who have traits I don't like. I won't like, cross the street or whatever, but frankly, Ive stopped going places where it's likely that there will be a bunch of people who I don't particularly gel with- that includes some of the gay bars in town, most goth places and nightclubs in general (yes, I'm getting old and young wans with their arse cheeks hanging out of their 'skirts' just don't do it for my anymore... :rolleyes:)

I don't see what the problem is with people having an opinion. It's like it's expected we'll all get on, just cos we're gay. I have nothing in common with a person going through transition, on the surface. I don't. I have NO idea what it's like to be born in the wrong body. I have nothing in common with flamboyant gay guys. I have very little in common with a lot of people. Just as I would expect a lot of other people to have nothing in common with me, and no interest in getting to know me. That's fine.

It's just this ridiculous notion that we all have to be happy clappy super duper with everyone who is lumped, or lumps themselves in the gay community. Some people are just loud annoying gits to me, just like to some people I'll probably come off as a condescending twat.

And I just want to re-iterate somethign you said, wonderfulname:

there was a time when anyone with issues with gender identity were viewed as a sort of Extreme-Gay (coming soon to a store near you) or something of that nature, the majority of people now know different.

You've said it yourself- gender issues are unrelated to gay issues. The constant linking of the two when there is no link makes 2 things happen: everyone assume that gay people want to change sex, and also that people who are transitioning must be gay.

I do apologise to anyone if I've said something that offends them during this post. I don't condone belittling anyone because of a choice of religion, etc or because of fundamental elements of themselves (their gender or sexuality). But I also don't condone not debating things.

shay_562

zoegh wrote:

^^ So does that mean I have to agree with everything everyone does?...At least be upfront about it. Support each other, yes, but that never has to mean you have to like everything about each other.

This. Liking someone doesn't mean liking every part of them. Accepting someone doesn't mean liking them. Being gay doesn't mean we're all bestest friends.

Thaedydal wrote:

Like you said they are your issues, go figure them out and deal with them rather then trying to shun or push away thing and people which make you uncomfortable due to your issues.

wonderfulname wrote:

And even coming from that position I am absolutely disgusted to see things such as...Everyone here understands what its like to be part of a minority, everyone here knows the feeling of hearing something like "Oh I don't mind what they do on their own they just better not come over to me", Its disheartening, you think, is this what acceptance is? Everyone is equal, and that doesn't just refer to future rights or legislation, and its the people who are sometimes viewed as that little bit less equal, who listen to the casual unintended insults of the uninformed who should understand what hurt that little detachment can cause

Links234 wrote:

Maybe because I think people shouldn't be belittled by their own community? That they shouldn't be humiliated by other LGBT people? That they shouldn't be hated because of the manner in which they express themselves? Because someone who isn't hurting anyone by how they walk or talk doesn't deserve the kind of scorn they get. Maybe because if you're gay, you should have a little more empathy towards other LGBT people, because if you don't, who else will? Maybe I don't like to see attitudes that can hurt people and make them feel ostracized in their own community.
Or you know, maybe I see all of this effecting me in the long term?

This is exactly my problem. Links234, I'm not humuliating, ostracising, scorning or any of the other extreme words you're using here; I'm saying that personally, there are traits that I find annoying in some other gay people. I'd be shocked if any random LGBT person's sense of personal validation is dependent on my personal acceptance of them. This applies just as much to wonderfulname - why can't acceptance be just that? Honestly, I'd be perfectly happy for everyone in the world to simply accept all LGBT people - if everyone were treated on their own merits, not in a "It's fine if I don't have to see it" way, but in a "It's fine, but not my cup of tea" way. It'd solve one of the recurring problems mentioned on this thread (all gay people being painted with the same brush, because we're all 'freaks', to use Links234's delightful word), and mean that everyone could just get on with living and finding other people that they liked for reasons beyond sexuality.

But Thaedydal, thanks for illustrating what I've been struggling to articulate all day - that this isn't something that we're allowed to talk about here. Saying "I don't like people who act in a particular way" simply isn't allowed if you're gay yourself - it's demonstrative of 'issues' that I more or less need to piss off and sort out, the better to fit with the correct mindset. This is why I don't believe in an LGBT community - because it simply doesn't exist. There's a mindset, and you can agree with it or sod off. That dissonance - "We're accepting, unless you don't agree with us" - is what made me comment on Links234's post in the first place.

Since Catholicism is apparently a flippant choice that doesn't count (and even as an atheist with a lot of anti-religion issues, I find that dismissive), let me try another example - I'm Irish, proud to be Irish, would never hide it, and if talking to someone from another country would often be quite defensive about the country's merits. That said, there are Irish people, and common Irish personality traits that I simply don't like. I hate our tendency towards insularity and fear of the unknown. I hate our conservatism as a country. I hate the gombeenishness of Irish politics. To pick out one particular social group, I find most South Dublin private-school-rugby-heads to be quite annoying. I have some friends who fit into this group, but for the most part I've found that I have little in common with and don't get on with them. Thus, if someone is immediately obvious about this part of themselves (still wearing a Gonzaga scarf long after graduating, using words like 'roysh' unironically) I'm quicker to judge them, less likely to go out of my way to talk to them and more likely to have to overcome pre-existing distaste to like them as a person. I'm willing to bet that most of you have some other group that would fit into this category quite well - people who you just don't particularly like, not because it's right to dislike them, just because you don't click with them and find them annoying. If you can honestly say that you don't, that you judge each and every person as a completely blank slate, then congratulations, you're a better human being than everyone I've ever met.

Why is the above paragraph so different if it's about me being LGBT and finding flamboyant gay people annoying? Why can I be Irish, while finding a group of other Irish people irritating without compromising my Irishness, committment to this country or being accused of having 'issues' and ostracising people, and yet I can't do the same as an LGBT person?

baby and crumble

Ok, Shay, you've totally just said what I was trying to in a much more eloquent and convincing manner.

wonderfulname

shay_562 wrote: »

Since Catholicism is apparently a flippant choice

I most certainly did not say that! I said a choice, which it is, it is a belief system that for a lot of the country has been indoctrinated into them but it is none the less a choice.
No I do not understand what its like to identify myself as the opposite sex to the one i was born, but people connect the two, not equate, connect, as neither party is conforming to gender norms, as a result we receive much of the same setbacks and insults, as a result we should be understanding.

I find flamboyant gay people annoying, at least the ones for whom the flamboyancy is a security blanket, you seem to be assuming that just because that is the topic of the thread its what we were actually discussing :P

Zoegh, earlier i said "I'm beginning to think your just being a little too free with words, liking something and agreeing with it are two very different things in this context." and I'm pretty confident I'm right now, for example had I said I "disagree with flamboyant gay people" above that would be a matter of principle, that would suggest something entirely different to how i actually feel. None of any of our points are really too dissimilar..

Links234

shay_562 wrote: »

This is exactly my problem. Links234, I'm not humuliating, ostracising, scorning or any of the other extreme words you're using here; I'm saying that personally, there are traits that I find annoying in some other gay people. I'd be shocked if any random LGBT person's sense of personal validation is dependent on my personal acceptance of them.

Why do you think this is about your personal opinion?
When I was talking about activists being happy to drop sections protecting transgender people from the employment non-discrimination act in America, do you think that related directly to you? It's that and other similar things where a portion of the LGBT movement are happy to cut off their most vulnerable members, that's what I'm referring to by people being ostracized. Not that you are personally doing any of it.

Honestly, it's not your personal opinion I take issue with. I take issue with the general attitudes among seemingly a lot of gay people that it's ok to hate the other LGBT people or completely dismiss them if they don't toe the party line. I'm concerned about those kinds of attitudes when they impact on rights issues like that. I'm concerned about the larger problems faced by the LGBT community as a whole, and I think such attitudes merely enables discrimination for people within this community when some try to suppress element they feel is a bad reflection on them.

Nevyn

shay_562 wrote: »

But Thaedydal, thanks for illustrating what I've been struggling to articulate all day - that this isn't something that we're allowed to talk about here. Saying "I don't like people who act in a particular way" simply isn't allowed if you're gay yourself - it's demonstrative of 'issues' that I more or less need to piss off and sort out, the better to fit with the correct mindset. This is why I don't believe in an LGBT community - because it simply doesn't exist. There's a mindset, and you can agree with it or sod off. That dissonance - "We're accepting, unless you don't agree with us" - is what made me comment on Links234's post in the first place.

There is no 'us', 'the scene' is not community there is more diversity now then there ever was before and more ways for people who are lgbtq to communicate then there was 40 years ago when it was still illegal in this country. There are lots of different communities who all come together under the header of lgbtq because we are queer, different, deviant from what we are told is normal.

I am not welcome on 'the scene'.
I am not butch enough for the dykes,
I am not femme/girlie enough for the gays
I am a parent so that makes me a 'breeder'
I am bisexual so that makes me 'greedy'/'confused'
I am a switch so that makes me a 'pervert'.

The amount of decisive derision I have been on the end of has been unreal.
but still I will stand up for the right for everyone to be themselves and not be stereotyped and make to feel less due to who and how they are.

There are ways to be active in the wider community with out ever going to certain pub or going to see the latest lesbian band gig.

Handsome Bob

I just don't like dominating personalities in general, that's where I would stand on the subject. Be they straight men, OTT camp men or women, I find this kind of behaviour incredibly grating. I wouldn't hold it against them because they are just being themselves, but I just wouldn't want to be around people with dominating personalities. That's not to say I wouldn't be perfectly polite to them.

Links234

Thaedydal wrote: »

There is no 'us', 'the scene' is not community there is more diversity now then there ever was before and more ways for people who are lgbtq to communicate then there was 40 years ago when it was still illegal in this country. There are lots of different communities who all come together under the header of lgbtq because we are queer, different, deviant from what we are told is normal.

I am not welcome on 'the scene'.
I am not butch enough for the dykes,
I am not femme/girlie enough for the gays
I am a parent so that makes me a 'breeder'
I am bisexual so that makes me 'greedy'/'confused'
I am a switch so that makes me a 'pervert'.

The amount of decisive derision I have been on the end of has been unreal.
but still I will stand up for the right for everyone to be themselves and not be stereotyped and make to feel less due to who and how they are.

There are ways to be active in the wider community with out ever going to certain pub or going to see the latest lesbian band gig.

And that is the kind of exclusion and ostracizing I mean.
There's too many people who are just incredibly exclusive towards others, it's like they're not queer enough or they're too queer.

Lets look at it from a transgender perspective. Today, the term "transgender" is one that covers a lot of different things including transsexuality, cross dressing, gender queer, and among other things, drag. There are a lot of transsexuals who hate drag queens. Some feel that the over the top dress and the whole act reflects really badly on transsexual women who just want to blend in, that it gives the impression that wearing women's clothing is all for a laugh.

One of my best friends, a fairly regular straight guy, loves to dress up in drag from time to time, wearing the kinds of things I absolutely hate and wouldn't be caught dead in, and just goes all out for fun. From my perspective, if someone can't tell the difference between a person who dresses up in an exaggerated style for fun, and a person who is transsexual, that's their problem. If I was worried about that, I'd have to give one of my best friends the boot, and I would never do that, because he is just an amazing guy and he has fun and doesn't hurt anyone. I think that the way some would like to have it is that you can't wear women's clothing unless you're 100% living as female. But I don't really care about someone who might think they're better than my friend just because they're on the titty skittles.

Even among transsexuals they're still exclusion and resentment. People who'll say oh you're not true trans unless you're getting genital reassignment surgery. I've come to learn that there are girls out there who are perfectly happy with having penises, but still want to be female in every other regard, and that doesn't mean that they are any less transsexual or less valid or have any less discomfort with living as male than someone who does want a vagina. I know one girl online who was in such a bad way that she actually cut out her own testes by herself. Literally performed an orchiectomy on herself! I'd be lying if I said the thought hadn't crossed my mind to do it myself, but do actually go and do it? I can't imagine how out of sorts she must have felt to do something like that. But there are also other girls I know online who really don't seem to have much of any discomfort with their genitalia. And some would say that they aren't serious about transitioning and aren't truly trans.

I read something before that made me cry here.

Take a look at this beautiful young woman:

Sarah: Transsexual Committed suicide by hanging herself.
Died; April17th, 2008

While Sarah was not a regular member here her story must be told. Many TS's who committ suicide are often driven by non-acceptance by Mainstream society or family members. This was not the issue with Sarah as her familiy and friends supported her. This was a case where she was not supported by her own community. Sarah frequented a site run by Harry Benjamin Syndrome members where she was disparaged and put down by the elite group becuase she had not yet had SRS surgery, She was told she was a fetishist because of this which was not the case. She was Transsexual.
This is not the first time that HBS elitists have caused a Transgender suicide. All transgender people need support and treatment especially within their own community. These people attack new transgendered who may or may not always be 100% certain of their path or those they deem not as elite as they are. When you see these kind of attack taking place, please speak up to this small minority. You very well may be saving the life of a member of our Community.

baby and crumble

See now, I think I might very well be coming across incorrectly, and no doubt that's my problem. I have a few things I need to clarify, and I think then I'll move on.

1) I accept everyone's right to be themselves.

2) Sometimes their 'selves' cheese me off. I do not like the behaviour of some groups of people, whom I- on paper- have a lot in common with. Some sections of the gay community, some group of people who went to private school, some people who like punk music. I am not going to turn around and be a hypocrite saying 'I love everyone, no matter who they are!', because that would be a lie. I simply say good luck to them.

3) I am standing strong in my previous affirmation that transgendered issues are not directly relatable to minority sexualities. Like someone else has said, being gay does not mean you want to transition, nor does wanting to transition mean you're gay. I hate the term 'gender queer', in fact i hate the term queer. But again, that's just my opinion.

For the record, I would in no way advocate any kind of mistreatment by anyone to anyone, really in the world. A human is a human is a human. The fact that someone took their own life because they were not supported in a community they felt they should be is awful. I feel for her, and for her family. I also don't want anyone to think I 'hate' anyone else. Hate is a strong emotion reserved for people in my life who have physically or emotionally harm me or a member of my family.

And tbh I have been on the brunt of the ostracizing mentioned in a previous post- i'm not gay enough for a lot of people. This is why I limit my time on the scene and in the community, and make friends with people because we accept each other and like each other.

Nevyn

What do you think the term gender queer means?

For me it means I have a blokey brain, I was very much a tom boy growing up and I know I often have a take on things which time and time again has been described as 'male' thinking, (Wibbs has to opsite :P)

I am not a 'traditional' female, I am not butch but some where in between and am not girlie at all. I prefer male company and get on better with men I do not conform to the expected behavior, demeanor or apperance of a female in our society, I am gender queer. I don't want to be a man, I am happy with sex and my gender but I am an atypical female, I am gender queer.

i can certainly understand zoegh why you aviod "the scene" I found a hell of a lot more accpetance in other minority groups then I ever did there and I think that we all gravitate to there we feel respected and acepted and frankly 'the scene' needs to grow up.

Links234

zoegh wrote: »

3) I am standing strong in my previous affirmation that transgendered issues are not directly relatable to minority sexualities. Like someone else has said, being gay does not mean you want to transition, nor does wanting to transition mean you're gay. I hate the term 'gender queer', in fact i hate the term queer. But again, that's just my opinion.

Nobody is saying that it's the same thing though!
But I don't see that just because you can't directly relate to something that you shouldn't be aligned with and supportive of it. When you think of it, a gay man cannot relate to a lesbian woman in terms of who they find attractive. Or can a bisexual person relate to someone who exclusively finds the same sex attractive and vice versa?

Also from my point of view I cannot relate to Female-to-Male transsexuals. As much as I can't understand what it's like to be cisgendered, I'll be honest that the other side of the coin is something equally incomprehensible to me, maybe even more so. I understand extremely well what it's like to be disgusted with your own body, but for someone to want what I find so utterly repulsive in myself? For someone who's female bodied to want to be male bodied is just something I cannot possibly relate to, because they want something that made me want to kill myself, has caused me such incredible pain, anxiety, shame and filled me with such self loathing for as many years as I can remember. It's the opposite end of the spectrum to me, and I cannot relate to it.
But I don't think about that, because it's not what separates us that's important, it's not about where we don't relate, it's about where we DO relate, and what commonalities we have that is important. And for me and all the F2Ms out there, we have the same goals, the same struggles and the same wants and needs. So I don't even consider where I can draw a division between M2Fs and F2Ms, because that doesn't help anyone.

And even if you can't directly relate to transgender issues, there's plenty of overlap.
Transgender people can be lesbian, gay and bisexual as well. There are gay trans men and lesbian trans women. A whole load of the trans girls I know are lesbian, or at least bisexual. I read something that the number of M2Fs that are attracted to women is something like 40%, so it's a pretty huge minority. Are we to say that gay and lesbian trans people are accepted, but if you're straight and trans you don't get the support of the movement?

I think we should stop focusing on our differences.
LGBT has always been a varied group of people, and we do relate on a lot of things, and we also face a lot of social stigma, issues in employment and many other things. And we all face serious threats in terms of verbal abuse, physical abuse and even the threat of murder. Just recently a transgender student was attacked and the word "it" was carved into his chest. Johnnymcg pointed out earlier that being gay in and of itself is not gender normative. Whether we are gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender or gender queer (or whatever other term you might prefer), we are all deviating from gender norms, and I think that's what people find so threatening.
Watch this video from about 4:30 onwards.

We all have a sexual identity, gender identity and gender expression. And those don't go hand in hand. In fact, I think gender identity and gender expression are pretty different and can be completely separate. A man (gender identity) can be attracted to women (sexual identity) and can be somewhat effeminate (gender expression), and it can be different for everyone. I don't think my gender expression is very feminine at all, which is probably why my family have such a hard time believing I'm trans, I've never been particularly feminine, yet I say that I am female. A lot of people also have a hard time understanding that I'm attracted to other women. People assume that if you're a transgender woman, you must be very feminine and attracted to guys. And when I tell people that you know, I want to transition, they're still completely thrown by my sexuality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2DuqgZY-hY

bodice ripper

there is no community. stop trying to count me in. i hate that. stop speaking on my behalf in the media. stop claiming to represent me in sexually themed parades.

Links234

bodice ripper wrote: »

there is no community. stop trying to count me in. i hate that. stop speaking on my behalf in the media. stop claiming to represent me in sexually themed parades.

do you want people to stop campaigning for rights on your behalf too?

bodice ripper

Links234 wrote: »

do you want people to stop campaigning for rights on your behalf too?

spare me this rubbish. I am all for rights, but that is not linked to this community nonsense. Or at least it doesn't have to be.


there is no community. we have never met. We weren't born into culturally similar backgrounds. we don't share a language. we don't come from one geographical region.