Dublin Bus Network Review

dynamick

World's most obvious astroturfing by the ULA being reported by the Irish Times as fact.

robbie_998

a lot of these protesters seem to be missing the plot

yes they are taking buses away and changing the routes completely but they are also REPLACING them with other buses.

from what im reading they seem to think they are gonna be left walking everywhere.

markpb

robbie_998 wrote: »

a lot of these protesters seem to be missing the plot

yes they are taking buses away and changing the routes completely but they are also REPLACING them with other buses.

from what im reading they seem to think they are gonna be left walking everywhere.

That's not entirely true. In some cases the buses are removed entirely and in others they are replaced by buses that no longer go where people need/want. Change is inevitable of course but so is resistance to change. In my case, DB removed my bus to the city centre and hobbled my orbital bus so I cancelled my (fifth) annual bus ticket and moved to a Luas line. You can sell this any way you want but some people will be negatively affected, its unavoidable.

SparkyTech

markpb wrote: »

That's not entirely true. In some cases the buses are removed entirely and in others they are replaced by buses that no longer go where people need/want. Change is inevitable of course but so is resistance to change. In my case, DB removed my bus to the city centre and hobbled my orbital bus so I cancelled my (fifth) annual bus ticket and moved to a Luas line. You can sell this any way you want but some people will be negatively affected, its unavoidable.

Which route(s) was this? Out of curiosity.

bk

markpb wrote: »

In my case, DB removed my bus to the city centre and hobbled my orbital bus so I cancelled my (fifth) annual bus ticket and moved to a Luas line. You can sell this any way you want but some people will be negatively affected, its unavoidable.

It sounds like your bus route is close to and overlaps with a Luas line?

Therefore it is hardly surprising it was scrapped. No point in running a competing service when something like Luas is in place.

Better to send these buses and drivers to areas of the city without such a high quality public transport service like Luas.

markpb

SparkyTech wrote: »

Which route(s) was this? Out of curiosity.

17a / 104 / 27b - The 17a was rerouted through Beaumont making it stupidly slow. The 104 was truncated so it no longer passed my road and the 27b is about to be truncated so I'd have to walk over 1km to get to it. If it was a decent bus route, a 1km walk would be tolerable but it's not.

bk wrote: »

It sounds like your bus route is close to and overlaps with a Luas line?

Nope, I moved out of my apartment to somewhere where I didn't have to rely on Dublin Bus. I had four years of putting up with a rubbish service so when they made it worse, I cancelled my ticket and moved.

dynamick

Politicians are constantly faced with the chance to implement policies that help more people than they harm. Usually they don't take these actions because the gainers take their gains for granted while the losers get angry and never forget.

Are the network direct changes attracting more customers? If they are, then it's a success, otherwise not. My route (46A) has much reduced journey times and higher frequency so I'd say it's carrying more passengers.

It's hard to isolate the effect of ND changes because there are other factors influencing passenger numbers such as fare increases, RTPI and rising unemployment.

AlekSmart

dynamick wrote: »

Politicians are constantly faced with the chance to implement policies that help more people than they harm. Usually they don't take these actions because the gainers take their gains for granted while the losers get angry and never forget.

Are the network direct changes attracting more customers? If they are, then it's a success, otherwise not. My route (46A) has much reduced journey times and higher frequency so I'd say it's carrying more passengers.

It's hard to isolate the effect of ND changes because there are other factors influencing passenger numbers such as fare increases, RTPI and rising unemployment.

Very good points Dynamick.

The 46A ND mods have eventually shown fruition on the route,however it has been a slow tortuous process due to the initial mishandling of the ND Phase 1 changes.

The focus now,should be to build upon the real improvements in an ND`d route rather than allow the Boyd Barrett "We're all Doomed,DOOMED I say" ethos to prevail.

Looking,for example,at the revised 11 route.

Whilst it is true that the Kilmacud terminus is being vacated,the options at the new Beacon Centre remain there for the exploration.

Currently,just as with Monkstown Farm,a small but regular patronage from the Goatstown area use the 11 to bring them to the Stillorgan Shopping Centre,the most common bags on display being Dunnes & Tesco.

Once at the current Kilmacud terminus these folk have to walk a significant distance onwards to the Stillorgan Centre proper,often in inclement conditions etc.

With the new routing the 11 will terminate almost directly outside the new Dunnes Stores at the Beacon,(Existing Bus Bay directly outside the old Halifax Branch) with covered access to and from the door.

In addition,the Beacon Hospital,Beacon Clinic and Beacon Hotel are now within sight of the Terminus.
I'm not suggesting the customers or patients of these establishments will find much use for the new 11,but with a large complement of STAFF there surely will be some new business to be found.

I'm quite certain that the Dunnes Stores Management at their Beacon Store will be keen to take full advantage of a new regular public transport to their door,it remains to be seen however if DB will see any synergy between the two operations...;)

Network Direct is only now starting to find it's intended shape,the initial mishandling has inflicted a serious level of damage to customer confidence and usership.

The challenge now is to re-engage with that element of customer and perhaps attract some new business whilst doing it !!

LXFlyer

Excellent post Alek.

As I've said repeatedly - the key in implementing phase 2 is firstly that the running times allow the published timetable to be delivered reliably, and also that the capacity delivered is sufficient to get everyone from A to B. That took forever to fix on the N11 and N3 corridors, but hopefully lessons have been learnt.

I think you could be spot on with the 11 changes.

pclive

Its great to read some positive comments on ND at last

Cookie_Monster

while I agree with the rest of the post

AlekSmart wrote: »

Once at the current Kilmacud terminus these folk have to walk a significant distance onwards to the Stillorgan Centre proper,often in inclement conditions etc.

300m is hardly significant to be fair

popebenny16

what is the situation with the NTA or the Department of Transport or whoever it is these days who issue licences to operate routes? Surely the wholescale changes that BAC are doing require individual permissions from the regulator? whats is going on is far more than just the tinkering of routes.

LXFlyer

popebenny16 wrote: »

what is the situation with the NTA or the Department of Transport or whoever it is these days who issue licences to operate routes? Surely the wholescale changes that BAC are doing require individual permissions from the regulator? whats is going on is far more than just the tinkering of routes.

All of the changes require will NTA approval, and all the changed rosters have to be agreed with drivers.

To be fair though there are very limited numbers of private operators in Dublin operating bus services that the potential for conflict is quite small.

coylemj

coylemj wrote: »

The locals have voted with their feet when it comes to the 45, if you drive up Clonkeen Road you'll hardly see anyone standing at the bus stops. If you live a couple of miles from the terminus, a service that only runs every 45 minutes is useless because 2/3 of the time you will be waiting for over half an hour for a bus and that's assuming they don't cancel some of them which they have a habit doing on that route based on past performance.

Back on my hobby-horse of the 45, the bus service that nobody uses...

Today at 16:15 I drove the full length of Clonkeen Road from the N11 to Deansgrange Cross with a 45 bus on my tail. There are three bus stops along the road and there was a grand total of zero people waiting for the 45 i.e. all three bus stops were empty.

Now don't get me wrong, the 46A is one of the best bus services in the city and I use it all the time, I just cannot see the point in the 'service' that is the 45.

LXFlyer

coylemj wrote: »

Back on my hobby-horse of the 45, the bus service that nobody uses...

Today at 16:15 I drove the full length of Clonkeen Road from the N11 to Deansgrange Cross with a 45 bus on my tail. There are three bus stops along the road and there was a grand total of zero people waiting for the 45 i.e. all three bus stops were empty.

Now don't get me wrong, the 46A is one of the best bus services in the city and I use it all the time, I just cannot see the point in the 'service' that is the 45.

Main customer base on that section - schoolchildren - in school term it does carry large numbers.

Aside from that local traffic and relief to the 7.

lucernarian

lxflyer wrote: »

Main customer base on that section - schoolchildren - in school term it does carry large numbers.

Aside from that local traffic and relief to the 7.

Not much relief in that the 45 doesn't stop at where most of the 7's passengers disembark when reaching the city centre. I've even seen plenty of people shunning a 45 in favour of waiting on a 4 or 7 along Merrion Road and Ballsbridge.

coylemj

lxflyer wrote: »

Main customer base on that section - schoolchildren - in school term it does carry large numbers.

Aside from that local traffic and relief to the 7.

Then run it during morning and afternoon rush hour during school term and put the buses to better use at other times of the day.

From the Blackrock end of Monkstown Road into town is served very well by the No. 7 and frankly I doubt if anyone waiting for a No.7 (70 per day) on the Rock Road would bother catching a No. 45 (25 per day) considering that the No. 45 terminates at Merrion Sq and the No. 7 goes all the way to the Pearse St. side of TCD.

I say scrap the 45 as an all day service.

lucernarian

coylemj wrote: »

Then run it during morning and afternoon rush hour during school term and put the buses to better use at other times of the day.

From the Blackrock end of Monkstown Road into town is served very well by the No. 7 and frankly I doubt if anyone waiting for a No.7 (70 per day) on the Rock Road would bother catching a No. 45 (25 per day) considering that the No. 45 terminates at Merrion Sq and the No. 7 goes all the way to the Pearse St. side of TCD.

I say scrap the 45 as an all day service.

The 7's route travels as far as O'Connell St. The 47 travels to the Pearse St. side of TCD.

CIE

coylemj wrote: »

I say scrap the 45 as an all day service

...versus restoring its former level of service, and into the city centre? They only did this cut to force patronage of the DART and their new route 145 after all. That leaves about 3 kilometres of Deansgrange Road/Clonkeen Road with bad bus service too. Bad politics at work again.

AlekSmart

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

while I agree with the rest of the post
300m is hardly significant to be fair

Perhaps of little significance to many able-bodied folk,Cookie,however the customers I am specifically referring to here are in the main of advanced years and of generally limited mobility.

My point being that the NEW ! IMPROVED! 11 route will actually leave these customers with significantly less walking to do,if only they can be persuaded to remain on the bus as it heads up to the Beacon.

backboiler

The Finglas East map shows the 83 route going Glasanaon Road - Ballygall Road - Tolka Estate - Glasnevin Hill.
Glasanaon to Ballygall Road (East) via Fitzmaurice Road (aka the Ballygall shops) is currently its route. Am I to understand that it will still do this, then detour via either (narrow) Glasilawn Road or Griffith Avenue to get to the south end of Tolka Estate and then take the current 19 route back onto Old Finglas Road and down Glasnevin Hill? Map attached...
Seems like a bit of a pointless detour and will add 15-odd minutes to the morning runs with the school "parking" at the upper end of Old Finglas Road.

coylemj

CIE wrote: »

...versus restoring its former level of service, and into the city centre?

In the 20 years I've lived in the area the 45 service has always been terrible so I'm not sure what you mean by 'restoring its former level of service'. The timetable of a few years ago that claimed a peak time frequency of 15 minutes was complete fiction.

CIE wrote: »

They only did this cut to force patronage of the DART and their new route 145 after all.

Why would anyone in the area need to use the 145 when the 46A passes through Deansgrange Cross?

To get the Dart you'd need to catch a 46A to Dun Laoghaire, again I can't see what this has to do with the lousy service that is the 45.

CIE wrote: »

That leaves about 3 kilometres of Deansgrange Road/Clonkeen Road with bad bus service too. Bad politics at work again.

As has been the case for as long as I can remember. That's why I'm saying they should just scrap the 45 altogether, nobody would notice based on the number of people who (don't) stand and wait for it at the bus stops on Clonkeen Road and Deansgrange Road

CIE

coylemj wrote: »

In the 20 years I've lived in the area the 45 service has always been terrible so I'm not sure what you mean by 'restoring its former level of service'. The timetable of a few years ago that claimed a peak time frequency of 15 minutes was complete fiction

How long ago do you mean by "a few years ago"?

The former level of service was every ten minutes. Can you remember that service on the 45?

coylemj wrote: »

Why would anyone in the area need to use the 145 when the 46A passes through Deansgrange Cross?

The 46A doesn't go to Blackrock, Booterstown or Ballsbridge though, and only serves the cross. Deansgrange Road itself had much higher level of bus service. Going through Stillorgan alone is restricting the choices available to passengers.

coylemj wrote: »

To get the Dart you'd need to catch a 46A to Dun Laoghaire, again I can't see what this has to do with the lousy service that is the 45

Sorry for not clarifying; I was referring to service within Bray and Shankill. The 145 of course does not serve Deansgrange Cross.

coylemj wrote: »

As has been the case for as long as I can remember. That's why I'm saying they should just scrap the 45 altogether, nobody would notice based on the number of people who (don't) stand and wait for it at the bus stops on Clonkeen Road and Deansgrange Road

Why let the bus company win? How do you just sit idly by and let them go from a ten-minute service to almost no service? Doesn't make sense to me. You do know what I mean by "bad politics", I hope?

NuMarvel

qerty wrote: »

http://www.dublinbus.ie/PageFiles/6844/Merrion%20Road%20QBC%2015.06.2011.pdf
New map for merrion road.


http://www.dublinbus.ie/PageFiles/6940/Finglas%20East%20v7.pdf
New map for finglas east.

The Merrion Road map looks better than what's currently available on the route, but it's missing the 4 and the 5.

I'd also suggest adding a few more landmarks like St Vincent's Hospital, and maybe the RDS (you could change Ballsbridge to Ballsbridge/RDS), but I can understand that if everyone suggested local landmarks, then the map would get very unwieldly. Still and all, a major hospital should be included.

KD345

NuMarvel wrote: »

The Merrion Road map looks better than what's currently available on the route, but it's missing the 4 and the 5.

The 5 is being cancelled. It's being replaced by Route 47. Unfortunately, this route is also missing from the map.

lucernarian

Not having the 4 and 47 on the Merrion Rd. map was pretty stupid, between the two routes they provide a large proportion of bus capacity on that road!

Cookie_Monster

Blackrock has also lost it's Dart station on that map...

You'd think something like that would be important to note

NuMarvel

KD345 wrote: »

The 5 is being cancelled. It's being replaced by Route 47. Unfortunately, this route is also missing from the map.

I didn't know that about the 5, thanks. Shame though, it was great having the bus all to myself the last time I got on a number 5 .

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Not having the 4 and 47 on the Merrion Rd. map was pretty stupid, between the two routes they provide a large proportion of bus capacity on that road!

It might be that there's another page on the DB website that gives some context. After all we only have the link directly to the map, the previous page on the DB website might explain why some routes aren't included.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Blackrock has also lost it's Dart station on that map...

You'd think something like that would be important to note

Ballsbridge took it .

lucernarian

NuMarvel wrote: »

It might be that there's another page on the DB website that gives some context. After all we only have the link directly to the map, the previous page on the DB website might explain why some routes aren't included.

I don't think it matters if there's some other page to give it context. The point is that the map they have planned for Merrion Rd is missing the second-most-frequent route on it. I can't see any good reason for leaving such a route out. Space to fit in the 4 at least doesn't look like much of an issue.

schemingbohemia

lxflyer wrote: »

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Network-Direct/Merrion-Road/

</H2>

Should DB not use the opportunity of this change to the 8 to re-route it? At the moment it's basically a 7 in disguise with a meandering route from Dalkey to Monkstown. I sometimes get the 7d into work in the morning (735am) and I think the 8 might be better going the 7d route, or should it go some other route?