Dublin Bus Network Review

D14

But isn't the 128/15 running to ballycullen?

LXFlyer

T1978 wrote: »

sounds great. I wonder if they are using the firhouse qbc model which involves 2 years construction at a cost of more than 2 million euros, only for them to scrap the 74 route, thus rendering it useless!

Both the 49 and 75 will still use it and benefit from it - both of which are far more frequent than the 74.

Boulevardier

I visited the DB roadshow in Terenure yesterday, and told a DB official that I consider the proposed hourly 61 a pathetically inadequate substitute for the 14 and 14A. This will have to be a half-hourly off-peak route if anything like the present service levels are to be maintained in the areas concerned.

T1978

D14 wrote: »

But isn't the 128/15 running to ballycullen?

You obviously don't live in the area.
I went to the DB roadshow yesterday to state my concerns and was told that the proposed change to the 74 route was the one that received the most complaints

Devilman40k

Boulevardier wrote: »

I visited the DB roadshow in Terenure yesterday, and told a DB official that I consider the proposed hourly 61 a pathetically inadequate substitute for the 14 and 14A. This will have to be a half-hourly off-peak route if anything like the present service levels are to be maintained in the areas concerned.

Welcome to ND, it's aim is not about providing the same level of service on all routes, but providing a service /covering services where routes are cut. There's no point having buses with 2/3 passengers travelling on a half hourly basis, its not cost effective (and considering how much I am against some of the proposals I do understand the need to cut underused services)

Judging by another thread here on proposed fare increases, it looks like we could be in for further cuts in future - if passenger numbers continue to fall as a result of cars becomming a more viable mode of transport! (I know it has been in my case :mad:)

Boulevardier

Devilman, in my opinion an hourly service in an urban area is really no better than no service at all. City buses are not something people can or should consult a timetable for before leaving the house. That is OK for long-distance and rural trips, but not for cities.

An hourly 61 will be even less used than the 14/14A (which in my experience are much better used than you seem to think), and that of course will give DB an excuse to terminate it (and similar services) as well.

T1978

lxflyer wrote: »

Both the 49 and 75 will still use it and benefit from it - both of which are far more frequent than the 74.

Firstly, the 75 does not go down the ballycullen road which is the section of the qbc i'm talking about. Also, it goes to Dun Laoighre and the vast majority of people need to get to the city centre. (It only runs every 30 mins too, like the 74 and 74a, so no, it's not "far more frequent")

The 49 is slightly more frequent, running every 20 mins, but it only uses half of the ballycullen road. The people at the top of the ballycullen road will be left with the choice of sitting in traffic as the bus crawls over the M50, or opt for the new 74a/15b which by the looks of things will probably take about 45 mins just to get through templeogue village. (Or walk for 20-25 mins to the nearest 49 stop)

I could live with the 74a/15b route change but not if the 74/15 goes ahead. One other thing to consider is that the people from knocklyon who are used to getting on the bus first will have to get used to buses going by full because they will be jammed by the time they get to orlagh.

Finally, for the return journey from town, anyone who has been stuck in the evening traffic on colmcille's way will know that trying to run a bus service through this is just a complete non-starter. And when there is a freqent accident on the M50....

LXFlyer

Boulevardier wrote: »

I visited the DB roadshow in Terenure yesterday, and told a DB official that I consider the proposed hourly 61 a pathetically inadequate substitute for the 14 and 14A. This will have to be a half-hourly off-peak route if anything like the present service levels are to be maintained in the areas concerned.

Boulevardier wrote: »

Devilman, in my opinion an hourly service in an urban area is really no better than no service at all. City buses are not something people can or should consult a timetable for before leaving the house. That is OK for long-distance and rural trips, but not for cities.

An hourly 61 will be even less used than the 14/14A (which in my experience are much better used than you seem to think), and that of course will give DB an excuse to terminate it (and similar services) as well.

The 61 is not replacing both of the 14/14a. All of the buses currently operating on the 14a will just switch to being a 14. The 14 will have the same combined frequency as the existing 14 and 14a (15 minute peak and 20 minute off-peak).

The 61 will replace the 14a between Churchtown and Upper Rathmines, a section of the route that has (thanks to LUAS) minimal passenger usage!

It will see the service to/from Whitechurch revert to the previous 15c levels - the current level of service is overkill for that small estate.

schemingbohemia

lxflyer wrote: »

The 61 is not replacing both of the 14/14a. All of the buses currently operating on the 14a will just switch to being a 14. The 14 will have the same combined frequency as the existing 14 and 14a (15 minute peak and 20 minute off-peak).

The 61 will replace the 14a between Churchtown and Upper Rathmines, a section of the route that has (thanks to LUAS) minimal passenger usage!

It will see the service to/from Whitechurch revert to the previous 15c levels - the current level of service is overkill for that small estate.

The services from Whitechurch attract a lot of passengers from Moyville and Edmondstown estates also (about 500 houses). I'm not totally au fait with how the revised services will operate but there's also a lot of patronage from Taylor's lane also, how will that be served?

Boulevardier

Sorry, I hadn't realised that the 14 was still being given that level of service.

Nevertheless, my comments about hourly city services stand. They are pointless, and are probably a prelude to termination.

LXFlyer

T1978 wrote: »

Firstly, the 75 does not go down the ballymount road which is the section of the qbc i'm talking about. Also, it goes to Dun Laoighre and the vast majority of people need to get to the city centre. (It only runs every 30 mins too, like the 74 and 74a, so no, it's not "far more frequent")

The 49 is slightly more frequent, running every 20 mins, but it only uses half of the ballycullen road. The people at the top of the ballycullen road will be left with the choice of sitting in traffic as the bus crawls over the M50, or opt for the new 74a/15b which by the looks of things will probably take about 45 mins just to get through templeogue village. (Or walk for 20-25 mins to the nearest 49 stop)

I could live with the 74a/15b route change but not if the 74/15 goes ahead. One other thing to consider is that the people from knocklyon who are used to getting on the bus first will have to get used to buses going by full because they will be jammed by the time they get to orlagh.

Finally, for the return journey from town, anyone who has been stuck in the evening traffic on colmcille's way will know that trying to run a bus service through this is just a complete non-starter. And when there is a freqent accident on the M50....

Well you should have been more specific in your post. The 49 will still benefit from all of the bus lanes, while the 75, (which, despite what you seem to think, carries more passengers than the 74 in that area, having 8 departures before 9am as opposed to 5 for the 74) will benefit from the Firhouse Road scheme. The 74a is irrelevant as it does not use those facilities.

The amount of Ballycullen Road not served by buses is one stop in each direction by merging the 74 and 15. The number of buses going to Stocking Avenue will increase to 10 an hour between the 15 and 15b, as opposed to 4 an hour as at present. I can hardly imagine that means people in Knocklyon won't be able to get on unless there is a huge increase in usage from Stocking Avenue/Ballycullen?

You do have a point on the journey times regarding the 15b -v-74a, but funnily enough the people in Whitechurch seemed to survive that when the 15b replaced the 15c a few years back.

At the end of the day the company is faced with the fact that it needs to cut costs - people need to realise that the status quo just cannot go on. This change eliminates the substantial duplication of the 49 and the 74 from Ballycullen to Knocklyon Road, an area that for many years was served only by the 49 (and which has had little extra housing built since the introduction of the 74), and uses the resources more efficiently by combining the 128, 15 and 74.

LXFlyer

Boulevardier wrote: »

Sorry, I hadn't realised that the 14 was still being given that level of service.

Nevertheless, my comments about hourly city services stand. They are pointless, and are probably a prelude to termination.

It won't as it will be the only bus linking Whitechurch Estate with the city centre.

It is returning the level of service to Whitechurch to that of the 15c/old 47 and provides a service along Nutgrove Avenue - I would certainly not see it being a precursor to being terminated. It matches the bus service with customer demand.

LXFlyer

schemingbohemia wrote: »

The services from Whitechurch attract a lot of passengers from Moyville and Edmondstown estates also (about 500 houses). I'm not totally au fait with how the revised services will operate but there's also a lot of patronage from Taylor's lane also, how will that be served?

They will still have the 15b at Ballyboden roundabout - which is the busiest stop in the area.

Boulevardier

Well, the people in Whitechurch must be easy to please. Personally, I would rather live in a cardboard box than an estate with 1 bus per hour.

KD345

Boulevardier wrote: »

Well, the people in Whitechurch must be easy to please. Personally, I would rather live in a cardboard box than an estate with 1 bus per hour.

There are many areas of Dublin with a similar level of service as the proposed 61. Rathcoole, Newcastle, Toberburr, Kilcoole, Blessington and other areas survive just fine with an hourly bus service.

There simply isn't enough demand in Whitechurch for a frequent all day service. At peak times there is also the 161 and 116 serving Whitechurch.

SparkyTech

Its not just Whitechruch thats affected by the NEW! IMPROVED! :rolleyes: 61 in place of the 15b. Rathfarnham is losing the 74a (quicker then the 16 at getting into town, also an alternative for those who could link up to the platora of buses on the Rathmines QBC, Nutgrove Avenue is losing the 16a, and the whole section of Lower Churchtown/Dartry is losing the 14a. Granted, these areas do not have a high demand for a 46a type service, but, at the least, should be provided with a 30min all day service. Having a bus that runs once every 60 mins replacing two frequent and one adequate route is a pathetic excuse for a public service provider.

So, as we see, its not just the 15b DB are jinxing. This is supposed to substitute for the 14a, the 16a and the 74a! :O

LXFlyer

Boulevardier wrote: »

Well, the people in Whitechurch must be easy to please. Personally, I would rather live in a cardboard box than an estate with 1 bus per hour.

It will be half-hourly in the peak, and Whitechurch will still also have a link to Rathfarnham every hour with the 161 which will in turn link in with the 16.

To be quite honest the unique sections of the route that it would take would not warrant a higher frequency than that.

SparkyTech wrote: »

Its not just Whitechruch thats affected by the NEW! IMPROVED! 61 in place of the 15b. Rathfarnham is losing the 74a (quicker then the 16 at getting into town, also an alternative for those who could link up to the platora of buses on the Rathmines QBC, Nutgrove Avenue is losing the 16a, and the whole section of Lower Churchtown/Dartry is losing the 14a. Granted, these areas do not have a high demand for a 46a type service, but, at the least, should be provided with a 30min all day service. Having a bus that runs once every 60 mins replacing two frequent and one adequate route is a pathetic excuse for a public service provider.

So, as we see, its not just the 15b DB are jinxing. This is supposed to substitute for the 14a, the 16a and the 74a! :O

As a frequent user of the 14, 14a, 16 and 48a I can actually comment on this from the perspective of my daily commute.

Stand at the junction of Nutgrove Avenue and Grange Road for the duration of the morning peak and compare the loadings on inbound 16 and 16a buses. There is no comparison. The 16a will generally have 5-6 people on it, while the 16 will have a far heavier load. The number of times that I have seen a 14a stop between Churchtown and Trinity Hall I can count on one hand (and I am a frequent user). I would say that the proposed 61 frequency does actually meet the demand of the unique sections it will serve (Whitechurch Estate, Nutgrove Avenue and Dartry).

Your comparison between the 16 and the 74a does not in fact stack up. Quite often at the start of the morning peak (around 0700) I've been on a 16, got off at Georges Street, walked across to Suffolk Street to meet the 74a that was going through Rathfarnham at the same time.

The reality is we cannot afford to continue providing a higher level of service to areas where usage is very limited. People need to get this into their heads.

Boulevardier

An hourly frequency on a city route inherently fails to meet any demand. Meeting demand, in terms of city dwellers, means that nobody has to wait more than a few minutes for their desired bus. An hourly route in an urban area is a complete waste of time. Among other things, drivers will certainly not bother to leave their cars at home.

In any case, I am dismayed to see that on a thread like this there are people prepared to defend/advocate inferior levels of service, in the interest of "realism". Varadkar and DB management will doubtless be spurred on to even greater cuts if they see this.

Boulevardier

One more thing, as Columbo would say.

What is the basis for saying that the 14 service wil continue? It does not appear on the new map. I am inclined to think it is for the chop, but I am prepared to stand corrected.

Misticles

They're taking away the 2 buses that go near my house (50, 65b) and replacing it with one that goes around the world before it leaves Tallaght... yes the 77a!!

Thats a nice 15 minutes added onto my journey :mad:

LXFlyer

Boulevardier wrote: »

One more thing, as Columbo would say.

What is the basis for saying that the 14 service wil continue? It does not appear on the new map. I am inclined to think it is for the chop, but I am prepared to stand corrected.

The 14 and 14a were both dealt with in the Ballinteer consultation.

Here is the extract dealing with them. Please stand corrected. :-)

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Network-Direct/Network-Direct-Phase-2/Kilmacud--Goatstown--Ballinteer--Dundrum/

Route 14 and 14a will be amalgamated and will offer significantly improved cross city options with direct connections to Connolly Rail Station, Fairview, Donnycarney and Beaumont Hospital

Route Improvements
Route 14 and 14a will be amalgamated and operate as route 14. The service will operate to Beaumont offering improved travel options for our customers. The route will operate from Dundrum Luas Station via Ballinteer Road, Ballinteer Avenue, Broadford Road, Barton Road East, Beaumont Avenue, Breamor Road, Braemor Park, Orwell Road, Rathgar Road, Rathmines Road Lower, Richmond Street South, Earlsfort Terrace, St. Stephen’s Green, O’Connell Bridge, Eden Quay, Connolly Rail Station, Fairview, Malahide Road, Collins Avenue, Beaumont Avenue, Beaumont Hospital and terminate opposite Artane Castle Shopping Centre (Ardlea Road/Maryfield Road).

Service Frequencies (Estimates)
Route Peak Off Peak
14: 15 / 20

LXFlyer

Boulevardier wrote: »

An hourly frequency on a city route inherently fails to meet any demand. Meeting demand, in terms of city dwellers, means that nobody has to wait more than a few minutes for their desired bus. An hourly route in an urban area is a complete waste of time. Among other things, drivers will certainly not bother to leave their cars at home.

In any case, I am dismayed to see that on a thread like this there are people prepared to defend/advocate inferior levels of service, in the interest of "realism". Varadkar and DB management will doubtless be spurred on to even greater cuts if they see this.

There are low frequency routes all over the city - the key is that on the main corridors that there are high frequency routes - there are areas of the city demand does not justify the frequencies that you seem to think necessary.

Taking your argument forward, are you suggesting that we just continue the status quo? Or do we provide a higher frequency service that has buses travelling around with maybe only 15 people on them or less?

Who is going to pay for that?

The 61 is pretty much serving a niche, namely Dartry, Nutgrove and Whitechurch. Higher frequency routes will cover most of the rest of the routes, namely City-Palmerston Park will be covered by the 140, Churchtown by the 14, and Grange Road/Rathfarnham by the 16, while the 15b will continue to serve Ballyboden.

LXFlyer

Misticles wrote: »

They're taking away the 2 buses that go near my house (50, 65b) and replacing it with one that goes around the world before it leaves Tallaght... yes the 77a!!

Thats a nice 15 minutes added onto my journey :mad:

I tend to agree that there is some justification for the retention of the 65b.

Rabbitt

Deffo there is.
The nearest bus stop for me in citywest on the 65 is a death trap on the blessington road.
You step off the bus on to a piece of concrete the size of a stamp nestled in a bush!

patrickbrophy18

SparkyTech wrote: »

Found this little jem on youtube...Monkstown protests in action!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3pk448dlFk

This is just idiocy at it's finest. You have the number 4 from Monkstown Avenue and the 46A from Kill Avenue. Also, Monkstown Farm/Oliver Plunkett Road is only half a mile in length. The worst case scenario is a quarter mile walk to each service into town or the 63 to Dun Laoghaire and the Green Line Luas at Carrickmines. In essence, they have the best bus service you can get. Furthermore, Bakers Corner is not the only place where either route stops as there are three other stops on Kill Avenue and another four stops (at least) between Stradbrook, Abbey Road and Monkstown Avenue. I had to laugh at the rather young looking woman in the video who works in UCD as she is complaining about a 10 minute walk when she is very energetic looking. Heaven forbid that these people would have to take a small amount of exercise to get to public transport:rolleyes: when someone like myself has a 10-15 minute walk to my nearest DART station which isn't a bother to me at all. The bus service in the vicinity of Monkstown Farm is far superior to that in many parts of Dublin that do, in fact, need more bus services such as Lucan, Blanchardstown, Damastown, Tallaght and Ballymun that are experiencing rather severe cuts in their bus service.

starviewadams

Anyone have any info of when the proposed Clondalkin network changes will come into effect?We got a letter in the door about it before Christmas saying that the 51 will become the 13 and that the 69 will only be going to the Red Cow Luas station and we haven't heard anything about it since.

A2000

The Ballyfermot page was never updated after the consultation period. In fact it has not been updated for 8 months now since 21st October. The map has not been changed to reflect changes decided. People have just been left in the dark as to whats happening and when if ever.

RichieD

Oh how i will miss the number 5.

Seeing the 5 coming around Nassau street on a sunny afternoon was a rare treat,

1.80 for an entire bus to myself, how can this be?

LXFlyer

starviewadams wrote: »

Anyone have any info of when the proposed Clondalkin network changes will come into effect?We got a letter in the door about it before Christmas saying that the 51 will become the 13 and that the 69 will only be going to the Red Cow Luas station and we haven't heard anything about it since.

All of the changes will be happening in phases during the summer.

The final plans are here:
http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Network-Direct/Network-Direct-Phase-2/BallymunClondalkin/

LXFlyer

A2000 wrote: »

The Ballyfermot page was never updated after the consultation period. In fact it has not been updated for 8 months now since 21st October. The map has not been changed to reflect changes decided. People have just been left in the dark as to whats happening and when if ever.

There seems to be a drive to update all the areas so in the last few weeks so I imagine they'll update those details soon.