Dublin Bus Network Review

patrickbrophy18

RichieD wrote: »

Oh how i will miss the number 5.

Seeing the 5 coming around Nassau street on a sunny afternoon was a rare treat,

1.80 for an entire bus to myself, how can this be?

While I do love the rare occassion when I have an entire bus to myself, it is probably the same reason that it is being axed! Mind you, I never thought skeleton bus routes (i.e. infrequent routes mainly with nine or less journeys each way per day) where going to do well given that commuters have to time these services to a tee at intermediate stops! To a lesser extent, this may be the reason why the 45 and 114 are often seen carrying air or taking on a hand full of passengers.

starviewadams

68 will be going through Camden Street,very handy!

RichieD

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

While I do love the rare occassion when I have an entire bus to myself, it is probably the same reason that it is being axed! Mind you, I never thought skeleton bus routes (i.e. infrequent routes mainly with nine or less journeys each way per day) where going to do well given that commuters have to time these services to a tee at intermediate stops! To a lesser extent, this may be the reason why the 45 and 114 are often seen carrying air or taking on a hand full of passengers.

Yes thats a fair point. The only times i remember getting the 5 from the city center was around 12.05, 1.30 and 3.15.

Whos going to be getting the bus at those times apart from students and old ladies going 3 stops.

Im sure if they ran the 5 during rush hour there would be plenty of people on it. . . . . . . . .but then it wouldnt be the 5 anymore!

honru

The 5 was an hourly peak service in the 90s, but its frequency has severely whittled down since then. It used to be the most convenient bus for me (living off Mount Merrion Avenue) so I was always glad to see one, though I'm not surprised to see it being axed.

Also that video about the 46A protests is indeed a facepalm. A half-hour peak service on the 63 is honestly not too shabby and if you want to go to the city centre then change at Stradbrook for a 4 or Deansgrange for a 46A. Do they understand that that Monkstown Farm detour added about 8-10 minutes to each trip? It was one of the more sensible changes on Network Direct.

CIE

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

While I do love the rare occassion when I have an entire bus to myself, it is probably the same reason that it is being axed! Mind you, I never thought skeleton bus routes (i.e. infrequent routes mainly with nine or less journeys each way per day) where going to do well given that commuters have to time these services to a tee at intermediate stops! To a lesser extent, this may be the reason why the 45 and 114 are often seen carrying air or taking on a hand full of passengers.

Yes...frequency sells, especially corridor frequency. Cut that frequency and sales are cut as well. All political nonsense.

Boulevardier

The less frequent a route is, the fewer people will use it. That is why an hourly (or less) city service never has, and will never have, more than a handful of people on it. Running an hourly city service is a complete waste of time.

Also, requiring people to change buses to get to or from the city centre is an abdication by DB of its responsibilities. Doing this, as seems to be effectively the case in Monkstown, willl sooner or later play into the hands of the privatisation lobby, and my advice would be: let's not go there.

markpb

Boulevardier wrote: »

The less frequent a route is, the fewer people will use it. That is why an hourly (or less) city service never has, and will never have, more than a handful of people on it. Running an hourly city service is a complete waste of time.

Absolutely agree. It feels (to me) like a sop by DB towards saying an area is "served by bus" but without the area having the demand for it and without DB really making any effort there. They're almost always a waste of buses and drivers.

Also, requiring people to change buses to get to or from the city centre is an abdication by DB of its responsibilities.

Couldn't disagree more. For four years I ignored the direct bus from my apartment into the city centre in favour of an obital bus and arterial bus. As long as both routes are reasonably frequent, it's perfectly fine (and in my case, faster and more frequent than my "direct" bus route).

Cookie_Monster

Boulevardier wrote: »

Also, requiring people to change buses to get to or from the city centre is an abdication by DB of its responsibilities.

no no no no no.

This needs to become a defacto part of travel over here if anything is ever to improve. The policy of running 70% (or whatever) of buses to the CC is crazy, there needs to be dedicated switching points, a re done fare structure to allow for it, properly timed connections etc.

T1978

lxflyer wrote: »

Well you should have been more specific in your post. The 49 will still benefit from all of the bus lanes, while the 75, (which, despite what you seem to think, carries more passengers than the 74 in that area, having 8 departures before 9am as opposed to 5 for the 74) will benefit from the Firhouse Road scheme. The 74a is irrelevant as it does not use those facilities.

The amount of Ballycullen Road not served by buses is one stop in each direction by merging the 74 and 15. The number of buses going to Stocking Avenue will increase to 10 an hour between the 15 and 15b, as opposed to 4 an hour as at present. I can hardly imagine that means people in Knocklyon won't be able to get on unless there is a huge increase in usage from Stocking Avenue/Ballycullen?

You do have a point on the journey times regarding the 15b -v-74a, but funnily enough the people in Whitechurch seemed to survive that when the 15b replaced the 15c a few years back.

At the end of the day the company is faced with the fact that it needs to cut costs - people need to realise that the status quo just cannot go on. This change eliminates the substantial duplication of the 49 and the 74 from Ballycullen to Knocklyon Road, an area that for many years was served only by the 49 (and which has had little extra housing built since the introduction of the 74), and uses the resources more efficiently by combining the 128, 15 and 74.

I never said the 75 gets less passengers than the 74. My point is that most people commute to the city centre using whatever bus is available.
I understand the need for the cost-cutting exercise and would not object to smart alternatives but the simple fact of the matter is that running a bus service over the M50 at ColmCille's way is a recipe for disaster and the revised 74a route sounds like you could grow old waiting to get into town on busy days.
One of my suggestions to DB was to provide a minimal 74 service along the existing route for peak times only, when it certainly does get enough footfall.

KD345

Boulevardier wrote: »

The less frequent a route is, the fewer people will use it. That is why an hourly (or less) city service never has, and will never have, more than a handful of people on it. Running an hourly city service is a complete waste of time.

Also, requiring people to change buses to get to or from the city centre is an abdication by DB of its responsibilities. Doing this, as seems to be effectively the case in Monkstown, willl sooner or later play into the hands of the privatisation lobby, and my advice would be: let's not go there.

Your posts sugget every area of Dublin should have a 10/15 minute bus service direct to the city centre. That can't happen with the current financial problems. What is being proposed is that the main corridors will have a high frequency service, with less frequent services operating nearby.

There is nothing wrong with expecting passengers to change buses. It's really not a difficult thing to do, and with RTPI and integrated ticketing on the way it'll be even easier. Also, with more super routes corssing the city, you may find passengers choosing to switch buses at various points to improve their journey.

Boulevardier

KD, I do not agree.

I do not think that all routes must be high-frequency, but I do think that a city route should have a minimum 30 minute frequency, or else peole will not bother to use the service.

I do not agree with you either about changing buses. Some pepole have no problem with it, but many others have, and they will vote with their feet- i.e they will take their car or cadge lifts from friends.

That is not how a modern capital city bus service should operate.

KD345

Boulevardier wrote: »

KD, I do not agree.

I do not think that all routes must be high-frequency, but I do think that a city route should have a minimum 30 minute frequency, or else peole will not bother to use the service.

I do not agree with you either about changing buses. Some pepole have no problem with it, but many others have, and they will vote with their feet- i.e they will take their car or cadge lifts from friends.

That is not how a modern capital city bus service should operate.

Thousands of passengers change buses every day in Dublin. Not everybody works in the city centre, many passengers travel across the city each day to work. Ballsbridge, Blanchardstown, Liffey Valley, Swords, Grange Castle, Leixlip, Parkwest, Ballymount are all areas which have busy outbound bus services in the mornings, and you'll find the majority of these people have used another bus to start their journey. This thread alone has highlighted the demand for more buses outbound to these areas.

What is the problem with somebody using two buses to complete their journey? I do it regularly, along with using a bus and Luas in my journey. It's not difficult and it costs nothing more if you use the correct pre-paid ticket

I completely disagree with your view of how a modern capital city bus service should run. There should be as many change points as possible along each corridor to open up more connections. As I've already mentioned, the introduction of RTPI will help people making journeys across the city. Changing buses on your journey is not exclusive to Dublin, it's promoted heavily in most European cities without any issue.

It would be wonderful to have every bus in the city running at a high frequency but the money is simply not there. I think the proposed 61 will run just fine at an hourly service. It's not too different to the current 47 route from Belarmine which has a frequency meeting the demand there. There is also extra capacity for Whitechurch at peak times, and you also now have a connection to the Green Line Luas and high frequency 16.

Boulevardier

KD, I think the point you are missing is that although thousands may well be happy to change buses, thousands of others are not. How is DB going to attract those people away from cars? A bus service, to expand and progress, needs to cater to people who have previously not used the service. Unnecessary bus changes are very likely to go against that.

You say the 47 (which I have never been on) meets the demand there. Really? How many people use it? Would it not be fair to say that demand for a service is affected by frequency as much as the other way round?

Speaking of the route number 47, that used to be a route which ran down Leinster Road. guess what? There are no longer any buses on Leinster Road. I suspect that we can expect to see more busless roads in the coming months!

LXFlyer

No one (bar a handful) of people ever used the old 47 between Rathgar and Rathmines over the 25 years that I used it, before it was replaced by the 15c (which took a more direct route along Rathgar Road). Why? Because they had the high frequency service along the Rathgar Road - The real purpose of the 47 was to link the area south of Rathfarnham Church with the city, for which the service was at an adequate frequency.

So why did the 47 survive so long? It and the new 61 are social services that are provided to link in outlying areas (such as Whitechurch), that do not have an alternative bus service, to the city centre.

The main demand for the 61 will be to/from Whitechurch (rather than anywhere else) as most of the rest of the route is within walking distance to/from an alternative higher frequency service such as the 14, 16, 140 and LUAS. I cannot imagine that off-peak it will have a need for a service at a higher frequency.

Boulevardier

Oh no, lets not touch this "social service" thing with a bargepole!
A "social" bus service has always meant a service for people who can't drive. It is an outdated concept which implicitly concedes that people who can get around in "normal" ways should do so.

LXFlyer

I'm not in any way suggesting that everyone else can use their car. Everyone else has the 14, 16, 140 and LUAS within a relatively short walk.

My use of the term "social service" refers to the fact that Whitechurch estate is out on a limb geographically, does not need high frequency, but does need a bus service.

The 61 frequency matches (in my view) that demand, with an hourly service to the city and an hourly service to Dundrum with the 161, thereby giving it a half hourly service.

The same applies in Dunboyne with the 70 and 270 and seems to work well.

patrickbrophy18

lxflyer wrote: »

The 61 frequency matches (in my view) that demand, with an hourly service to the city and an hourly service to Dundrum with the 161, thereby giving it a half hourly service.

To a certain extent, I appreciate the logic behind this statement because the area of Whitecurch mightn't necessarily have the population to make a higher frequency service sustainable. Nevertheless, I do think skeleton routes such as the 1, 5, 7D, 8, 38B, 33A, 41B, 116, 118 and 161 take on very few people because the low frequency undermines their attractiveness. The 1, 7D, 116 and 118 are particularly unattractive as they are practically non-existent with a mere one or two services in each direction. To that end, I would encourage Dublin Bus to revisit these services after all phases of Network Direct are completed.

LXFlyer

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

lxflyer wrote: »

The 61 frequency matches (in my view) that demand, with an hourly service to the city and an hourly service to Dundrum with the 161, thereby giving it a half hourly service.

To a certain extent, I appreciate the logic behind this statement because the area of Whitecurch mightn't necessarily have the population to make a higher frequency service sustainable. Nevertheless, I do think skeleton routes such as the 1, 5, 7D, 8, 38B, 33A, 41B, 116, 118 and 161 take on very few people because the low frequency undermines their attractiveness. The 1, 7D, 116 and 118 are particularly unattractive as they are practically non-existent with a mere one or two services in each direction. To that end, I would encourage Dublin Bus to revisit these services after all phases of Network Direct are completed.

Some of your reasoning is way off:
The 116 and 118 are jammed full every morning with schoolchildren going to the gaelscoileanna on the Stillorgan Road - that is their primary purpose.

The 38b exists to offer a morning peak service via the Blanchardstown bypass and is fully integrated with the 38 and 38a timetable.

The 1 is quite rightly for the chop and the 7d is a peaktime extra.

Cookie_Monster

lxflyer wrote: »

Some of your reasoning is way off:
The 116 and 118 are jammed full every morning with schoolchildren going to the gaelscoileanna on the Stillorgan Road - that is their primary purpose.

so run school buses instead then...

Aard

As a former 116 student, I would welcome a dedicated school-bus. No need to go through the industrial estate!

Boulevardier

I heard Ruari Quinn make a speech (largely unreported) recently, in which he indicated that school transport is one area being looked at for major savings. Best not hold our breath for the introduction of any new school transport.

NuMarvel

DB has updated the route map on the bus stop outside St Vincent's Hospital. Similar to the previous map, it does a good job of showing services in the general locality, but it fails to display the maps for three of the four routes that service that particular bus stop.

paddyland

Boulevardier wrote: »

I heard Ruari Quinn make a speech (largely unreported) recently, in which he indicated that school transport is one area being looked at for major savings. Best not hold our breath for the introduction of any new school transport.

Much better to farm it out to hordes of tax paying, SUV driving yummie mummies, who are far better, safer, and more environmentally efficient than one school bus. If all the kids get dropped right at the school gate, there'll be no need for a lollipop lady either, saving more money, and that'll be another parking space for a BMW X5.

trellheim

Nothing mentioned of what will serve the far Docklands when the 74 is withdrawn.


Also running the 15 up colmcilles way just to combine with the 74 is gross idiocy given the heavy traffic patterns. ( i.e. it looks sexy on paper but there's no buslane ).

KD345

trellheim wrote: »

Nothing mentioned of what will serve the far Docklands when the 74 is withdrawn.

Routes 15a and 15b will now operate to Britain Quay.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/PageFiles/7366/Swords%20Road%20Map.pdf

dfx-

Just looking for a bus to Donaghmede there on DB's website...

Put Donaghmede into the timetable search and up it came with the 29A, 29N and......the 65:eek:

Is the 65 going there as part of this new system or something?

qerty

dfx- wrote: »

Just looking for a bus to Donaghmede there on DB's website...

Put Donaghmede into the timetable search and up it came with the 29A, 29N and......the 65:eek:

Is the 65 going there as part of this new system or something?

Just a website mistake!

LXFlyer

2 additional roadshows:

Wednesday July 6th – Ballyroan BNS, Junction of Ballyroan and Ballyboden Roads 5pm-8pm
Friday July 8th – Omni Shopping Centre, Santry 2pm-8pm

qerty

Nothing has been updated in quite a while. I wonder what's going on.

LXFlyer

qerty wrote: »

Nothing has been updated in quite a while. I wonder what's going on.

I'm not sure where you're coming from? Many of the details were updated in the last month on the website post-consultation.

You've just had a group of changes implemented (Merrion Road and Ranelagh). I think it is better to do this in a phased manner, giving time to check each one as they go along and make any changes necessary before the next implementation.

Also, the Swords/Templeogue/Rathfarnham areas are still under consultation and the results may well impact on other areas.

For the other areas, I would imagine that, as I suggested before in this thread, the internal process of agreeing driver rosters for the new routes is ongoing - that can take time if there are multiple rejections of the rosters by drivers, or issues highlighted by them that require a revision to the original rosters. This is a complicated process, particularly with the requirement to abide by the EU working time directive.

It may be complicated by the fact that, as I understand it, some of the new merged cross-city routes will be operated by two depots rather than one, so there are two sets of drivers to agree to rosters rather than one.