Dublin Bus Network Review

D14

CIE wrote: »

f®eak s©enery wrote: »

On a similar note one thing that bothers me is that the 39A doesn't serve D'Olier Street, close enough to the stop that serves the 46A and 145. For those of us who live on the stretches that the all these routes share, as well as those wanting to go to UCD, it's annoying to see one pass by when it would be a perfectly valid way of getting to these places.

Why is the stop on College Street at all? I seem to remember the 10 stopping on D'Olier, especially since College Street had the terminus for several bus routes. Has it helped or hurt to have the bus that operates directly into Belfield no longer stop on O'Connell Street as well?

For my part, I'm one of those that remembers the 14 going to Phoenix Park. Maybe the 14 should have returned to the Phoenix Park, and the bus to Dún Laoghaire via Stillorgan should have been amalgamated with the 20B while calling the amalgamated route the 20...?? :rolleyes:

A bus every 4-8 mins to ardlea road?

dfx-

BenShermin wrote: »

Anybody popping out for a farewell to the 19 this evening;)?

I did..understated...AX564 last southbound and I think AV365 northbound as the proper cross-city services (not the crappy 19Cs). D464 was out and about too earlier on.

Perhaps it has been mentioned, but what happens to all the RVs that live on the 83? RV620-631, there were only two of them out today on it...prepared for transfer, Blanchardstown, prepared for departure or the only ones being kept on..

Pretty much much every other RV500 was out on it, RV561, RV546, RV570, RV571, RV574, RV587, RV588, RV589, RV592 + RV625 and RV626 being the last southbound 83. That's a huge hole to fill if they all go..

CIE

D14 wrote: »

A bus every 4-8 mins to ardlea road?

The 20B has already seen frequencies of buses every eight minutes or fewer (and oddly enough, the Saturday schedule was busier than the Monday-Friday one, with buses leaving every six minutes). That was a lot of buses turning around at Maryfield Drive.

the groutch

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

I am still at a loss as to why the 45, 7 and 8 operate via Blackrock Village on their northbound route. The right-hand filter turn is abysmally slow as is the section along the Main Street/Carysfort Avenue. This usually takes 10 minutes to get through. Effectively, the routing alignments along this portion defeat the whole purpose of having a Dual Carriageway parallel to it. The number 4 bus is the only city bound route which operates on the entire Dual Carriageway from Rowan Park and Monkstown Road without time-consuming meandering. The hilarious thing is that the DART station is less than a quarter of a mile from the stops along this stretch bar the stop opposite Seapoint Avenue. Ideally, the bus stops in Blackrock Village should only be used for feeder buses to and from the station. The 45, 7 and 8 could do with taking a leaf out of the 46A's book.

should have been taken care of a long long time ago, but now Dublin Bus will use the new VEC opening alongside the library as an excuse not to change it

LXFlyer

f®eak s©enery wrote: »

On a similar note one thing that bothers me is that the 39A doesn't serve D'Olier Street, close enough to the stop that serves the 46A and 145. For those of us who live on the stretches that the all these routes share, as well as those wanting to go to UCD, it's annoying to see one pass by when it would be a perfectly valid way of getting to these places.

Driver changes take place on College Street on the Navan Road and Lucan Road buses - D'Olier Street would not have enough space for that to happen safely.

Dub13

lxflyer wrote: »

Driver changes take place on College Street.

On Driver changes,how does that work with the new Real Time info...?the system does not know if the new driver will be there or if there will be a 10min hold up.

LXFlyer

I think you answered your own question there. Same issue as with heavy traffic.

The system is not that smart!

Dub13

lxflyer wrote: »

I think you answered your own question there. Same issue as with heavy traffic.

The system is not that smart!

But with heavy traffic it can pull some info from the bus in front or other busses using the road.In the case of a change of driver there is just no way to tell.

LXFlyer

No it doesn't - it is based on average speeds from where the bus is.

There is no computer smart enough to tell you if cars are, for example, blocking a yellow box that the bus is going to take longer.

It can only take the GPS location and the scheduled journey time from that point based on average speeds.

qerty

lxflyer wrote: »

No it doesn't - it is based on average speeds from where the bus is.

There is no computer smart enough to tell you if cars are, for example, blocking a yellow box that the bus is going to take longer.

It can only take the GPS location and the scheduled journey time from that point based on average speeds.

Educated guess

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

No it doesn't - it is based on average speeds from where the bus is.

There is no computer smart enough to tell you if cars are, for example, blocking a yellow box that the bus is going to take longer.

It can only take the GPS location and the scheduled journey time from that point based on average speeds.

It should and could take the position and time of all buses over time to build up a statistical model to better predict arrival time.

Google are doing precisely this with their Google Traffic system recently introduced in Ireland.

Actually I wonder if the NTA could come to an arrangement with Goggle to share the data, it would help make GPS systems far more accurate.

It would also be nice if the NTA shared all the schedules, routes and timing information with Goggle Transit.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

It should and could take the position and time of all buses over time to build up a statistical model to better predict arrival time.

Google are doing precisely this with their Google Traffic system recently introduced in Ireland.

Actually I wonder if the NTA could come to an arrangement with Goggle to share the data, it would help make GPS systems far more accurate.

It would also be nice if the NTA shared all the schedules, routes and timing information with Goggle Transit.

Presumably that will happen (the first paragraph).

However that will not account for a bus being held up at a set of lights with cars blocking a junction for example, heavier than normal traffic, or indeed a bus stopped for a driver change.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

However that will not account for a bus being held up at a set of lights with cars blocking a junction for example, heavier than normal traffic, or indeed a bus stopped for a driver change.

There are statistical models that can take such variances into account. I'm not saying it will make it perfect, but the more info you have the better such models can operate and more accurate estimates can be given.

KD345

bk wrote: »

There are statistical models that can take such variances into account. I'm not saying it will make it perfect, but the more info you have the better such models can operate and more accurate estimates can be given.

I use buses a lot in this city. I know it just takes 30 Spanish students boarding /a blocked bus bay/incident on a vehicle to cause a delay. How do you build those type of things into the RTPI system?

LXFlyer

I think the point is that it'll never be perfect and people need to realise this. But to expect a computer model to know, for example that a driver is not at a bus stop on time for a driver change is expecting a little bit too much!

That being said, some of the signs do need recalibrating as the time taken for certain routes is either longer/shorter than that being displayed.

As the system is rolled out over the rest of the year hopefully the timings will be refined based on the statistical data obtained.

markpb

KD345 wrote: »

I use buses a lot in this city. I know it just takes 30 Spanish students boarding /a blocked bus bay/incident on a vehicle to cause a delay. How do you build those type of things into the RTPI system?

You don't need to, it doesn't matter. How often, in the scale of a system that has thousands of departures every day, does a single event matter? If it's wrong by a minute or two for a single departure, it's not worth bothering about.

AlekSmart

markpb wrote: »

You don't need to, it doesn't matter. How often, in the scale of a system that has thousands of departures every day, does a single event matter? If it's wrong by a minute or two for a single departure, it's not worth bothering about.

This is also a vaild point,Markpb.

There is a tendency to lose sight of what utilization of a High-Frequency,High Capacity Mass PUBLIC Transport Service entails.

There is always going to be a degree of uncertainty,potential discomfort or disturbance factor with using a Mass-Transit system...there is even a Private element available to counter this,known as a Taxi.

It's about the choice being available,which it certainly now is,with 20,000 Taxi's vying for that private business.

What's happening in Dublin now,is only enabling us to play catch-up with the generally far better funded European PT models...so lets not diss it too much.....Yet ?

schemingbohemia

schemingbohemia wrote: »

On a plus point the re-routing of the 14 was of benefit to me this morning when I got off the Dart at Tara Street to get a 128, I just missed one and a few seconds later a 14 came around the corner and I scampered to the next stop just in time to get it.

Quoting myself now, but does anyone know why the 128 and 14 stop at different stops outside Tara Street Station? Seems a bit odd given they share the same bus stops elsewhere, it means you have to hang out in between the two bus stops.

Also very annoying waiting over ten minutes for either to come and then 2 128s and 1 14 arrive at the same time!

LXFlyer

I think it's down to the driver change on the 14 taking place on Georges Quay and that they don't want to block the stop outside Tara Street DART Station. The 128 changes driver on Burgh Quay.

Craguls

Apologies if it's already been asked and replied to, but does anyone know when Network direct is actually coming into Santry etc? We got note of the changes months ago....

dfx-

lxflyer wrote: »

No it doesn't - it is based on average speeds from where the bus is.

There is no computer smart enough to tell you if cars are, for example, blocking a yellow box that the bus is going to take longer.

It can only take the GPS location and the scheduled journey time from that point based on average speeds.

On the whole taking of GPS locations and calculating from where the bus is, I present the phantom, timetabled, 2100 ex-Dolphins Barn 56, Mon-Fri.

It shows up on the displays along the Crumlin Rd as approaching along with the real 56A that departs the city at 2030. But the service has never operated and there is never a bus at Dolphins Barn for the display to communicate with or get a GPS location from. So why does it appear?

KD345

dfx- wrote: »

On the whole taking of GPS locations and calculating from where the bus is, I present the phantom, timetabled, 2100 ex-Dolphins Barn 56, Mon-Fri.

It shows up on the displays along the Crumlin Rd as approaching along with the real 56A that departs the city at 2030. But the service has never operated and there is never a bus at Dolphins Barn for the display to communicate with or get a GPS location from. So why does it appear?

From what I understand, every scheduled departure in the timetable will appear on the screen. This is required for stops which are at, or close to the terminus, otherwise the bus would just appear as DUE when the bus leaves. In this case, the 56 appears as scheduled, which is correct. The problem is that in reality, for whatever reason, the service does not run.

What should happen is Dublin Bus central control are informed of the bus not operating and remove it from the public displays.

Have you contacted Dublin Bus about this error?

LXFlyer

dfx- wrote: »

On the whole taking of GPS locations and calculating from where the bus is, I present the phantom, timetabled, 2100 ex-Dolphins Barn 56, Mon-Fri.

It shows up on the displays along the Crumlin Rd as approaching along with the real 56A that departs the city at 2030. But the service has never operated and there is never a bus at Dolphins Barn for the display to communicate with or get a GPS location from. So why does it appear?

It is scheduled to operate and is in the timetables and as such appears on the screens as a scheduled departure.

However, I suspect given that the 2030 56a passes Dolphin's Barn at 2100 a local agreement was reached between management/staff not to operate it, as what would be the point of two buses going in tandem on that route.

Why not send an email to Dublin Bus about it as KD345 suggests?

LXFlyer

Craguls wrote: »

Apologies if it's already been asked and replied to, but does anyone know when Network direct is actually coming into Santry etc? We got note of the changes months ago....

Once the revised network has been published to the public, the detailed work of drawing up new driver rosters has to then be completed, along with the process of getting driver agreement to them, and then NTA approval for the changes gained, so it's a bit diffictult to give specific dates for the implementation of each phase of changes.

The changes are being implemented on average every 2-3 weeks.

There are about 8-9 phases to go, so you'll just need to wait and see.

dfx-

I've no real issue with the non-running of the service. It's a strange one, the timetable suggests if there was a bus to run the leg...it appears out of nowhere and then doesn't come back from the Square either. It makes sense not to run it.

My enquiry was more how it counts down the minutes to a bus it cannot communicate with because there isn't anything to communicate with. So when the display lists that there's a bus doesn't necessarily reflect the existence of a bus. It's a reflection of the schedule

lxflyer wrote: »

However, I suspect given that the 2030 56a passes Dolphin's Barn at 2100 a local agreement was reached between management/staff not to operate it, as what would be the point of two buses going in tandem on that route.

Not always, that's why I noticed it. If the 2030 departs the garage on time (rarely), it gets to the Barn at 2045. The 2030 departure does leave very late often [15-20 minutes] to arrive at 2100. I know Ringsend are aware it doesn't run [I have been on board the 2030 departure that has stopped and waited at the Barn until 2100, but it doesn't do that anymore], but not necessarily headquarters. I do know that the phantom departure has been scheduled long before RTPI came about, so whatever mistake in the original timetable has been doubled by entering it into the RTPI system too.

I must check out one of these days how long it stays up for and how far away before the Network Changes. I'd love to see it remaining as a phantom service after the network direct changes.

rx8

dfx- wrote: »

I've no real issue with the non-running of the service. It's a strange one, the timetable suggests if there was a bus to run the leg...it appears out of nowhere and then doesn't come back from the Square either. It makes sense not to run it.

My enquiry was more how it counts down the minutes to a bus it cannot communicate with because there isn't anything to communicate with. So when the display lists that there's a bus doesn't necessarily reflect the existence of a bus. It's a reflection of the schedule



Not always, that's why I noticed it. If the 2030 departs the garage on time (rarely), it gets to the Barn at 2045. The 2030 departure does leave very late often [15-20 minutes] to arrive at 2100. I know Ringsend are aware it doesn't run [I have been on board the 2030 departure that has stopped and waited at the Barn until 2100, but it doesn't do that anymore], but not necessarily headquarters. I do know that the phantom departure has been scheduled long before RTPI came about, so whatever mistake in the original timetable has been doubled by entering it into the RTPI system too.

I must check out one of these days how long it stays up for and how far away before the Network Changes. I'd love to see it remaining as a phantom service after the network direct changes.

The 'phantom' bus as you call it, is actually the 20.30 from the square.As it comes down towards Dolphins Barn, the RTPI system displays the time that it's due on the outbound screens.What actually happens, is the 20.30 56A from Ringsend doesn't leave until 20.40 and it's this bus that passes Dolphins Barn at 21.00.

The 20.30 bus from The Square works all the way into Ringsend as a 56A, and this saves 2 buses going out to the Square within a few minutes of each other..

This will all end in 10 days when the 77/27 and new 56A schedule come into force, as the Dolphins Barn departures are being scrapped.

D14

rx8 wrote: »

dfx- wrote: »

I've no real issue with the non-running of the service. It's a strange one, the timetable suggests if there was a bus to run the leg...it appears out of nowhere and then doesn't come back from the Square either. It makes sense not to run it.

My enquiry was more how it counts down the minutes to a bus it cannot communicate with because there isn't anything to communicate with. So when the display lists that there's a bus doesn't necessarily reflect the existence of a bus. It's a reflection of the schedule



Not always, that's why I noticed it. If the 2030 departs the garage on time (rarely), it gets to the Barn at 2045. The 2030 departure does leave very late often [15-20 minutes] to arrive at 2100. I know Ringsend are aware it doesn't run [I have been on board the 2030 departure that has stopped and waited at the Barn until 2100, but it doesn't do that anymore], but not necessarily headquarters. I do know that the phantom departure has been scheduled long before RTPI came about, so whatever mistake in the original timetable has been doubled by entering it into the RTPI system too.

I must check out one of these days how long it stays up for and how far away before the Network Changes. I'd love to see it remaining as a phantom service after the network direct changes.

The 'phantom' bus as you call it, is actually the 20.30 from the square.As it comes down towards Dolphins Barn, the RTPI system displays the time that it's due on the outbound screens.What actually happens, is the 20.30 56A from Ringsend doesn't leave until 20.40 and it's this bus that passes Dolphins Barn at 21.00.

The 20.30 bus from The Square works all the way into Ringsend as a 56A, and this saves 2 buses going out to the Square within a few minutes of each other..

This will all end in 10 days when the 77/27 and new 56A schedule come into force, as the Dolphins Barn departures are being scrapped.

10 days?

Rabbitt

If it was 10 days away surely the new timetables would have to be up on the website?

LXFlyer

Rabbitt wrote: »

If it was 10 days away surely the new timetables would have to be up on the website?

They have to give 5 working days notice of any changes per the contract with the NTA. If they're happening on the 11th (I don't know) the changes should appear today on the website.

rx8

lxflyer wrote: »

They have to give 5 working days notice of any changes per the contract with the NTA. If they're happening on the 11th (I don't know) the changes should appear today on the website.

I don't know what obligations they have, but I do know that the 56A, and 77/27 schedules have been voted on by the Ringsend drivers concerned, and that 10 drivers will lose their cars on the 50/56A. The agreed implementation date is Sunday Sept. 11th.

This may change however as Clontarf seem to be dragging their heels on their end of the 27/77 schedule.