Dublin Bus Network Review

qerty

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Network-Direct/Network-Direct-Phase-2/Ballyfermot-/

Newly updated page for Ballyfermot. The 26 will indeed be removed from the area.
Route 40 will have 10 minute peak frequency.
Route 79 will have 12 minute peak frequency.
No map yet.

Also, new map for the Tallaght area too.
http://www.dublinbus.ie/PageFiles/7090/TallaghtFinal.pdf


I've noticed that they've changed these details on the sly

dfx-

Maybe other ND routes can confirm, but are buses being run slower [or more carefully] with the change?

I've been on AV107 today, AV245 late tonight and AX482 on empty roads last night, so it's not the buses or even garage specific.

SteM

The 27 route isn't running well in rush hour as far tell. There seems to be busses bunching together by the time they get from Edenmore to the City Centre. So there could be 20 minutes wait or 4 minutes wait. It's something I fully expected to be honest.

Dodge

qerty wrote: »

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Network-Direct/Network-Direct-Phase-2/Ballyfermot-/

Newly updated page for Ballyfermot. The 26 will indeed be removed from the area.
Route 40 will have 10 minute peak frequency.
Route 79 will have 12 minute peak frequency.
No map yet.

Any proposed schedule for these changes?

I'm also wondering when the new route 13 (Clondalkin to Ballymun) will be operational if anyone knows.

EDIT; Just reading that 40 presser. It uses the term "offering connections to" so the actual City Centre route good be anything

Bazzer2

Dodge wrote: »

I'm also wondering when the new route 13 (Clondalkin to Ballymun) will be operational if anyone knows.

Well, the Network Direct page relating to that change claims 'September 2011'.....

http://www.dublinbus.ie/Network-Direct/Network-Direct-Phase-2/BallymunClondalkin/

jh385

The extended 77a hardly counts as a replacement for the 50. The route around Old Bawn is longer, and makes the total journey into town at least 1h20m.

I had suggested during consultation that they should extend the 77 up to Citywest, as that's a more direct route. But was ignored.

Speaking of 'direct' - I consider Dublin Bus to be in violation of advertising standards. In the leaflet I received it said they are offering a 'more direct' service. Replacing the 50 with the 77a actually makes it less direct. In fact, this makes the project name 'Network Direct' also misleading, as it's far from direct.

The luas also isn't the answer. For anyone traveling in to the Trinity/Dame Street/Pearse Street area there's now a 15-20min walk when you get off the luas (not to mention 10 minutes to the luas stop at the citywest end)

50 Citywest->Ringsend total journey time: 1h 10m - now cancelled
77a Citywest -> Ringsend journey time: 1h 20m
Luas Citywest -> Ringsend (including walk) : 1h 30m

How has this improved the service?

SteM

jh385 wrote: »

The extended 77a hardly counts as a replacement for the 50. The route around Old Bawn is longer, and makes the total journey into town at least 1h20m.

I had suggested during consultation that they should extend the 77 up to Citywest, as that's a more direct route. But was ignored.

Speaking of 'direct' - I consider Dublin Bus to be in violation of advertising standards. In the leaflet I received it said they are offering a 'more direct' service. Replacing the 50 with the 77a actually makes it less direct. In fact, this makes the project name 'Network Direct' also misleading, as it's far from direct.

The luas also isn't the answer. For anyone traveling in to the Trinity/Dame Street/Pearse Street area there's now a 15-20min walk when you get off the luas (not to mention 10 minutes to the luas stop at the citywest end)

50 Citywest->Ringsend total journey time: 1h 10m - now cancelled
77a Citywest -> Ringsend journey time: 1h 20m
Luas Citywest -> Ringsend (including walk) : 1h 30m

How has this improved the service?

I'd have to agree with you on all of this. The 50 was a good alternative to the 77a and 77 during rush-hour because

a) It travelled via Kilnamanagh missing out on the village which can be a pig to get through during rush hour.
b) The 77a misses out the village but it travels around Oldbawn which takes as long.

The 77a is a poor replacement.

schemingbohemia

jh385 wrote: »

The extended 77a hardly counts as a replacement for the 50. The route around Old Bawn is longer, and makes the total journey into town at least 1h20m.

I had suggested during consultation that they should extend the 77 up to Citywest, as that's a more direct route. But was ignored.

Speaking of 'direct' - I consider Dublin Bus to be in violation of advertising standards. In the leaflet I received it said they are offering a 'more direct' service. Replacing the 50 with the 77a actually makes it less direct. In fact, this makes the project name 'Network Direct' also misleading, as it's far from direct.

The luas also isn't the answer. For anyone traveling in to the Trinity/Dame Street/Pearse Street area there's now a 15-20min walk when you get off the luas (not to mention 10 minutes to the luas stop at the citywest end)

50 Citywest->Ringsend total journey time: 1h 10m - now cancelled
77a Citywest -> Ringsend journey time: 1h 20m
Luas Citywest -> Ringsend (including walk) : 1h 30m

How has this improved the service?

I'm a slow walker and it would never take 15-20 minutes to walk from the Luas to any of the places you mention, 10 max.

jh385

schemingbohemia wrote: »

I'm a slow walker and it would never take 15-20 minutes to walk from the Luas to any of the places you mention, 10 max.

Okay, I'll meet you at Bus Aras Luas stop in the morning, and we'll see how long it takes us to get to Ringsend, walking slowly.

ETA:Google Maps; Bus Aras to Ringsend Garage is 1.8km (22 minutes walking) - I do it in 15 mins.

schemingbohemia

you never said Ringsend!

KD345

The quickest route to Citywest from the city centre is the 69. There is also the 65B.

If you don't want to travel through Seskin View and Tymon North on the 77A, you could always get off at The Square and transfer to a 54A/65/65B/77.

I agree with schemingbohemia, it does not take 15/20 minutes to walk from Abbey Street to Trinity.

jh385

schemingbohemia wrote: »

you never said Ringsend!

jh385 wrote: »

Luas Citywest -> Ringsend (including walk) : 1h 30m

Regardless of whether the walk is 10 mins or 20 mins (plus the walk to the luas stop, as most of the bus stops are outside the estates) - it's still a walk that wasn't needed before.

I look on it as my daily exercise.

LXFlyer

Dodge wrote: »

Any proposed schedule for these changes?

I'm also wondering when the new route 13 (Clondalkin to Ballymun) will be operational if anyone knows.

EDIT; Just reading that 40 presser. It uses the term "offering connections to" so the actual City Centre route good be anything

They haven't announced a specific date yet - but given that they appear to be happening every two weeks I would think the 13/51 could be the last weekend in September (24th/25th), while the other phases will be in October/November.

The 40 routing was announced previously as straight down O'Connell Street, D'Olier Street and Dame Street.

LXFlyer

jh385 wrote: »

The extended 77a hardly counts as a replacement for the 50. The route around Old Bawn is longer, and makes the total journey into town at least 1h20m.

I had suggested during consultation that they should extend the 77 up to Citywest, as that's a more direct route. But was ignored.

Speaking of 'direct' - I consider Dublin Bus to be in violation of advertising standards. In the leaflet I received it said they are offering a 'more direct' service. Replacing the 50 with the 77a actually makes it less direct. In fact, this makes the project name 'Network Direct' also misleading, as it's far from direct.

The luas also isn't the answer. For anyone traveling in to the Trinity/Dame Street/Pearse Street area there's now a 15-20min walk when you get off the luas (not to mention 10 minutes to the luas stop at the citywest end)

50 Citywest->Ringsend total journey time: 1h 10m - now cancelled
77a Citywest -> Ringsend journey time: 1h 20m
Luas Citywest -> Ringsend (including walk) : 1h 30m

How has this improved the service?

This is where they have communicated the project poorly.

The project is about introducing more direct services along QBCs and giving more cross-city penetration thereby offering an improved product, but it is also about restructuring other services where there is over-capacity and routes unnecessarily duplicating one another, thereby reducing costs. Some of these will inevitably involve longer journeys.

The 27/77 is one of the former, but the 50/77a fall into the latter category.

You could still take the 65b or 69 and change in the city centre which would probably be shorter than the 77a, which using a Travel 90 ticket would only cost EUR 1.90 each way.

jh385

lxflyer wrote: »

You could still take the 65b or 69 and change in the city centre which would probably be shorter than the 77a, which using a Travel 90 ticket would only cost EUR 1.90 each way.

I'll look into that, thanks.

I know there are workarounds; the luas and walking, changing buses, fold-up bike etc. But my point is that they've taken away a service I was happy with (the 50), and replaced it with something inferior and inconvenient (the 77a)

schemingbohemia

jh385 wrote: »

I'll look into that, thanks.

I know there are workarounds; the luas and walking, changing buses, fold-up bike etc. But my point is that they've taken away a service I was happy with (the 50), and replaced it with something inferior and inconvenient (the 77a)

I hate to break it to you, but the world doesn't revolve around you

There are going to be winners and losers in Network Direct, the important thing is that there are more winners than losers.

So the people in Monkstown Farm have to either walk 5 minutes or get a bus to get the 46a/4 now so they lose, but everyone else on the 46a route wins by having 10 minutes knocked off their journey and no buses getting blocked going down unsuitable roads - in that instance way more winners than losers.

In your instance you lose out, better services on the more direct routes mean there are winners there.

LXFlyer

jh385 wrote: »

I'll look into that, thanks.

I know there are workarounds; the luas and walking, changing buses, fold-up bike etc. But my point is that they've taken away a service I was happy with (the 50), and replaced it with something inferior and inconvenient (the 77a)

The trouble is that DB need to cut services where there is overcapacity and thereby reduce unneccessary costs, with the annual PSO subvention being cut even further. Unfortunately it's not good news for you in terms of journey time with the 50/77a being merged at the outer end - I guess the improved frequency to/from Citywest is an improvement.

There is also the direct Morton's services from the city centre or Sydney Parade DART station - this would be the most direct routes to/from Citywest but it's only one service in either direction.

Details are here.

wayne040576

I'm so glad I'm moving out of Tallaght in a few days, this would drive me mad. I got the 77A from citywest at 7:15 on monday morning and didn't arrive into work until 8:45. I'll be walking from Kimmage to the city centre to avoid having to rely on the buses.
The luas will do me for the few days I have left.

What hasn't been mentioned (I think) is that there are people who live on this route who are too far from the luas (Deselby - blessington road). They're pretty much screwed now as all the buses to town available to them have ridiculous routes.

LXFlyer

wayne040576 wrote: »

I'm so glad I'm moving out of Tallaght in a few days, this would drive me mad. I got the 77A from citywest at 7:15 on monday morning and didn't arrive into work until 8:45. I'll be walking from Kimmage to the city centre to avoid having to rely on the buses.
The luas will do me for the few days I have left.

What hasn't been mentioned (I think) is that there are people who live on this route who are too far from the luas (Deselby - blessington road). They're pretty much screwed now as all the buses to town available to them have ridiculous routes.

Surely the 65 and 65b are direct enough?

jh385

schemingbohemia wrote: »

In your instance you lose out, better services on the more direct routes mean there are winners there.

Do you work for Dublin Bus, or have some other vested interest? You seem to be very keen to defend their project. I'm not sure why.

Or am I not allowed to express my concerns here? - I tried approaching Dublin Bus, but that didn't work - This seems like the next best option.

And to clarify one point (not that I have to answer to you, of course) -

schemingbohemia wrote: »

I hate to break it to you, but the world doesn't revolve around you

I initially approached Dublin Bus, Marie Corr, and Brian Hayes as the main representative (and by request of) our residents association of 750 houses in the Citywest area.

So if you want to take that up with the residents, I can give you the mailing list address.

SteM

lxflyer wrote: »

Surely the 65 and 65b are direct enough?

No use if you want to go to walkingstown/crumlin though.

schemingbohemia

As it's C&T civility month I'll play nice.

Are you saying only people who work for Dublin Bus or have a vested interest are allowed to see the bigger picture and defend Network Direct?

I've never said ND is perfect but Dublin Bus are trying to make a more efficient effective network on less money, it's a very difficult thing to do, they certainly don't get it right all the time.

I don't know enough about your area and the impact of the changes to comment fully. That's why I said there are winners and losers everywhere, your loss is another community's gain, you can't keep all the people happy all the time .

If you hadn't posted misinformation about the amount of time taken to get from the Luas to Trinity/Dame St/Pearse St I wouldn't have commented.

wayne040576

lxflyer wrote: »

Surely the 65 and 65b are direct enough?

65b is a disaster in the morning. The only fast part of the route is on the Bypass then it gets stuck in all of the villages along the way. Don't know about the 65.

jh385

schemingbohemia wrote: »

I don't know enough about your area and the impact of the changes to comment fully.

Then we're in agreement.

KD345

JH385, the 50 was not carrying enough passengers to continue as it was. It never had high loadings and when Luas arrived, it got even worse. The way things are financially, Dublin Bus need to cut costs/redeploy resources elsewhere. I have been on many 50s where it didn't pick up/drop off a single passenger between The Square and Cuckoos Nest. That would suggest to me the routing was wrong. While the new 77a is about 10 minutes longer, it has a much better frequency and serves far more people on it's route.

SteM

KD345 wrote: »

JH385, the 50 was not carrying enough passengers to continue as it was. It never had high loadings and when Luas arrived, it got even worse. The way things are financially, Dublin Bus need to cut costs/redeploy resources elsewhere. I have been on many 50s where it didn't pick up/drop off a single passenger between The Square and Cuckoos Nest. That would suggest to me the routing was wrong. While the new 77a is about 10 minutes longer, it has a much better frequency and serves far more people on it's route.

I think it's more that 10 minutes to be honest. Google maps say the distance from the Square to the Cuckoos Nest pub on the 50 was 3.36km. The Square to the Cuckckoos nest on the 77a is coming up at 6.5km.

Add in the extra stops on the 77a route around Oldbawn etc and I would imagine it's longer than an extra 10 minutes. I can't say for sure as I haven't taken it yet because I have no wish to die of boredom as I travel around south west county Dublin to get home.

So Dublin Bus have added an extra 3km onto an already long journey.

jh385

KD345 wrote: »

JH385, the 50 was not carrying enough passengers to continue as it was. It never had high loadings and when Luas arrived, it got even worse. The way things are financially, Dublin Bus need to cut costs/redeploy resources elsewhere. I have been on many 50s where it didn't pick up/drop off a single passenger between The Square and Cuckoos Nest. That would suggest to me the routing was wrong. While the new 77a is about 10 minutes longer, it has a much better frequency and serves far more people on it's route.

I understand this is a cost-cutting exercise. But I wish they'd looked at the new 77a route a bit more carefully. I always hated getting the 77a if the 50 didn't show up, and that was *before* they extended the route. IMO they're trying to cover too many estates with the one route.

On the issue of loadings; I only ever took the 50 during peak hours, and it was always standing room only by the time it reached The Coombe. In the mornings from Citywest to Killinarden the whole top deck filled with schoolchildren, who were dropped off along the Greenhills Road, with some school kids going as far as Crumlin or D'Olier Street. (Funnily enough, when we got leaflets about the route changes, a girl got on at Christchurch and gave them out - One of the quietest parts of the route.)

Additionally, the 50 was always a more pleasant journey. For some reason, all the smokers, drunks, and troublemakers seem to congregate on the 77/77a (and yes, I've got my emails to Dublin Bus with specific incidents)

If this was all about frequency and number of areas served, then all we need is one route taking a spiral pattern towards the city centre, departing every 2 minutes.

RichieD

KD345 wrote: »

JH385, the 50 was not carrying enough passengers to continue as it was. It never had high loadings and when Luas arrived, it got even worse. The way things are financially, Dublin Bus need to cut costs/redeploy resources elsewhere. I have been on many 50s where it didn't pick up/drop off a single passenger between The Square and Cuckoos Nest. That would suggest to me the routing was wrong. While the new 77a is about 10 minutes longer, it has a much better frequency and serves far more people on it's route.

Can I put it you you that the reason the 50 didnt have a high load is because it only came every 35-50 mins, so most of the passengers were mopped up by the 77.

Also people aren't likely to wait around 30 mins for a single bus, when they can walk 5-10 minutes to the 77 stop and probably wait 15 minutes max.

SteM

I have no problem with changes being made on routes in Tallaght. If they had to be done they had to be done. I think it would have been fairer for DB to hold off doing them until the real time system had been implemeted out there though. It's all well and good for people to say jump off this bus and jump on that bus, people would be much more likely to do that if they had an idea when busses are going to show up. None of the bus stops past Superquinn are showing real time information as far as I can tell.

KD345

jh385 wrote: »

I understand this is a cost-cutting exercise. But I wish they'd looked at the new 77a route a bit more carefully. I always hated getting the 77a if the 50 didn't show up, and that was *before* they extended the route. IMO they're trying to cover too many estates with the one route.

On the issue of loadings; I only ever took the 50 during peak hours, and it was always standing room only by the time it reached The Coombe. In the mornings from Citywest to Killinarden the whole top deck filled with schoolchildren, who were dropped off along the Greenhills Road, with some school kids going as far as Crumlin or D'Olier Street. (Funnily enough, when we got leaflets about the route changes, a girl got on at Christchurch and gave them out - One of the quietest parts of the route.)

Additionally, the 50 was always a more pleasant journey. For some reason, all the smokers, drunks, and troublemakers seem to congregate on the 77/77a (and yes, I've got my emails to Dublin Bus with specific incidents)

If this was all about frequency and number of areas served, then all we need is one route taking a spiral pattern towards the city centre, departing every 2 minutes.

I see your point, but I can also understand the reason for the 50 being canceled. None of the areas you mention have been left without a service, they just have to travel through Seskin View and Tymon North. It's not ideal for anyone traveling to the city centre, but if that's your destination, there are more direct routes available (27/54A/65/65B).

I agree that the 50 was a more pleasant bus, but that was probably because it carried far less people.

RichieD wrote: »

Can I put it you you that the reason the 50 didnt have a high load is because it only came every 35-50 mins, so most of the passengers were mopped up by the 77.

Also people aren't likely to wait around 30 mins for a single bus, when they can walk 5-10 minutes to the 77 stop and probably wait 15 minutes max.

Possibly, but if that's the case then why keep a route where it's passengers are being mopped up by an existing high frequency service?

The Luas is in Citywest, the 65B is in Killinarden Heights, along with the 54a for Killinarden, and the Greenhills area has a frequent service with the new 27.

There simply isn't the cash to operate the 50 on a more frequent level, it would be great if there was. I agree the new 77A is long and meandering, but what are Dublin Bus to do? Personally, I'd prefer if the 54A was extended to Citywest through Killinarden, and extend the 77A to Ellensborough, but you're still left with the problem of a direct link between Crumlin and Killinarden/Citywest.

I know people don't like it, but you can easily change buses mid route to a more direct service if that suits. With RTPI it is getting easier to plan your journey on route.

SteM wrote: »

None of the bus stops past Superquinn are showing real time information as far as I can tell.

Poles have been erected at Greenhills, Tallaght Village, The Square, Fettercairn and there is also one at Jobstown House inbound. I'd say they'll be live shortly along with the phone app.