Dublin Bus Network Review

BenShermin

CIE wrote: »

Not to mention, I've always wondered why a majority of the buses between Ballyfermot and the city centre never ran via the painfully-obvious route (meaning the one that you'd drive in a car), i.e. via Con Colbert Road in both directions to St. John's Road West and onto the quays.

I asked Dublin Bus that very question around 5 years ago and they claimed that there was no patronage for such a service and that the majority of customers wanted the "slower" Inchicore/Kilmainham routing. Absolute bull IMO.

I don't think the company grasped the fact that they were actually forcing the patronage to use the slower route!! Five years on, these Network Direct proposals show that they still haven't grasped that fact.

It's quite intresting to see that patronage hasn't suffered on the 25a/b, 39a or the 46a because they take faster routes now. Seems only silly passengers from Ballyfermot "want" slower routes, hmm!

Anyway I E-mailed Dublin Bus recently about my disgust at the 26 re-routing and the Network Direct team couldn't be bothered giving me a reply. Seems the merits of Network Direct don't apply to Ballyfermot and North Clondalkin!!

CIE

BenShermin wrote: »

I asked Dublin Bus that very question around 5 years ago and they claimed that there was no patronage for such a service and that the majority of customers wanted the "slower" Inchicore/Kilmainham routing. Absolute bull IMO.

I don't think the company grasped the fact that they were actually forcing the patronage to use the slower route!! Five years on, these Network Direct proposals show that they still haven't grasped that fact.

It's quite interesting to see that patronage hasn't suffered on the 25A/B, 39A or the 46A because they take faster routes now. Seems only silly passengers from Ballyfermot "want" slower routes, hmm!

I've wondered this about the 78/A/B and 79 even way back before there was a Chapelizod Bypass. The buses could only go one way on Inchicore Road westbound (as the 79 still does) up as far as Memorial Road; and when the lower part of Sarsfield Road that goes under the railway bridge was still one-way going eastbound (i.e. prior to the institution of the contra-flow bus lane), all the westbound buses were forced to go via Memorial Road onto Con Colbert Road to reach the two-way part of Sarsfield Road anyhow, so you had both westbound and eastbound buses running in the same direction on Memorial Road. I don't remember any large patronage on those part of the routes back then either; I think if they suddenly re-routed the 79 via Colbert Road in both directions, the passengers would like that a lot better, especially since (like the 40 replacing the 78A) the 79 will be an extended route serving the north side of the city.

I sometimes also wonder why the primary Clondalkin routes were suddenly switched to running via Old Kilmainham and Thomas Street/James Street. Originally, this was the domain of short routes like the 21/21A (Ring Street/Bluebell respectively); and then suddenly the 21A was extended to Woodford (don't ask me why), which later developed into the long-standing 51B/C reroute while the 51 to Neilstown was deprecated to an infrequent service from a highly-frequent one. And now, this will be the new south-side route 13 (sorry, you don't go to Ranelagh now?? or past the Botanic Gardens...?)

Not to mention, I don't see any significant improvement to the part of Sarsfield Road that goes under the railway even with the quad-tracking of part of the Kildare Line...would have thought that widening the street under the railway was merited when they started running the buses two ways on there (so as to prevent a possible head-on collision), but no to that either. (Then again, back in the 80s, the genii in the government also bought the KD-class, which was amazingly too tall for the clearance under the Sarsfield Road bridge, so while other bus routes got the KDs, the Ballyfermot routes were stuck with the Atlanteans until the Olympians arrived. Hello, run buses in both directions on Con Colbert Road and you could have had the KDs? or fix the railway bridge, because it's not like you didn't have the money during the so-called "Celtic Tiger" days?)

BenShermin wrote: »

Anyway I E-mailed Dublin Bus recently about my disgust at the 26 re-routing and the Network Direct team couldn't be bothered giving me a reply. Seems the merits of Network Direct don't apply to Ballyfermot and North Clondalkin!!

I don't know why they suddenly did that to the 26. It's gone back to its routing from the 70s and 80s with that move; it was even more useful when running to/from the hospital. They looking to push another route into irrelevancy so they can cancel it? not to mention, there might be some use to a permanent frequent route between the city centre and Clondalkin via the N4 corridor (a "permanent 51D" if you like); the 78A (later to be 40) still has too much out-of-the-way running via Neilstown, Balgaddy and Rowlagh, trying to serve too many areas at once while coming back around to Liffey Valley Centre (this was one of the real weaknesses of cancelling the frequent 51 Neilstown). Passengers prefer the direct routing; they'd never voluntarily drive the way some of these bus routes go.

Ben D Bus

BenShermin wrote: »

I asked Dublin Bus that very question around 5 years ago and they claimed that there was no patronage for such a service and that the majority of customers wanted the "slower" Inchicore/Kilmainham routing. Absolute bull IMO.

As a regular user of the 78A, I find huge numbers of passengers board and alight on Thomas St. In both directions.

I also see plenty of people choose not to take the express 78 when it arrives at my regular stop.

Just an observation.

Also, I find that the difference in journey time from Aston Quay to Sarsfield Road between the 78A and the 79 is only about 4 minutes. Less than you might think. They often leave together (separate issue ) and if I take the 79, I know when to expect to see the 78A pass after I get off on Sarsfield Rd. 79A is a bit faster alright.

Bazzer2

BenShermin wrote: »

Anyway I E-mailed Dublin Bus recently about my disgust at the 26 re-routing and the Network Direct team couldn't be bothered giving me a reply. Seems the merits of Network Direct don't apply to Ballyfermot and North Clondalkin!!

+1.

Isn't it bizarre that a trip on the 78A to Liffey Valley takes an hour to complete, yet in the same time you could get a Leixlip bus to Liffey Valley in about half that time and be out in County Kildare within 60 minutes....

CIE

Ben D Bus wrote: »

As a regular user of the 78A, I find huge numbers of passengers board and alight on Thomas St. In both directions.

I also see plenty of people choose not to take the express 78 when it arrives at my regular stop.

Just an observation

Just to clear that up: are you saying that there are huge numbers that ride from Ballyfermot (or further west) to Thomas Street and vice-versa? I don't remember that too much on the old 78/A/B; it was more local riders getting on city-bound and getting off westbound. Also, where is your regular stop?

Ben D Bus wrote: »

Also, I find that the difference in journey time from Aston Quay to Sarsfield Road between the 78A and the 79 is only about 4 minutes. Less than you might think. They often leave together (separate issue ) and if I take the 79, I know when to expect to see the 78A pass after I get off on Sarsfield Rd. 79A is a bit faster alright.

Ever time the average speed of both routes?

BenShermin

Ben D Bus wrote: »

As a regular user of the 78A, I find huge numbers of passengers board and alight on Thomas St. In both directions.

I also see plenty of people choose not to take the express 78 when it arrives at my regular stop.

Just an observation.

I also observe large numbers alighting and boarding at Thomas Street.

But for a start those boarding could easily be accomadated on the 123 service which is now fully serviced by double deckers and no longer suffers overcrowding.

As for those alighting, whos to say that they are not walking from Thomas Street down Bridge Street to their destination on the quays? I know that when I have to catch a train I sometimes take a 78a to James's Street and walk to my destination at Heuston Station. I suspect many others are the same.

As a frequent user of the bus myself it's clear as mud to see that the majority of passengers board the bus at Aston Quay and alight at Ballyfermot/North Clondalkin and vice versa. These people deserve a faster service. The whole objective of Network Direct was to have less buses running more efficiently, routing buses through the Kilmainham/Inchicore bottleneck with no bus lanes certainly doesn't fit that discription.

dfx-

BenShermin wrote: »

I also observe large numbers alighting and boarding at Thomas Street.

But for a start those boarding could easily be accomadated on the 123 service which is now fully serviced by double deckers and no longer suffers overcrowding.

As for those alighting, whos to say that they are not walking from Thomas Street down Bridge Street to their destination on the quays? I know that when I have to catch a train I sometimes take a 78a to James's Street and walk to my destination at Heuston Station. I suspect many others are the same.

As a frequent user of the bus myself it's clear as mud to see that the majority of passengers board the bus at Aston Quay and alight at Ballyfermot/North Clondalkin and vice versa. These people deserve a faster service. The whole objective of Network Direct was to have less buses running more efficiently, routing buses through the Kilmainham/Inchicore bottleneck with no bus lanes certainly doesn't fit that discription.

And what about the large number of passengers on Emmet Rd outside Richmond Park and the at times very large (often a bus-full) volume of tourists coming back from Kilmainham Jail? Which the 123 doesn't serve..and that the current 51B/C helps out on. A lightly loaded 51B/C at Inchicore will be very crowded by Thomas St if a 78A doesn't appear - or goes a different route.

Dodge

With the Bulfin road 19 gone, the loadings on Emmet Road aren't likely to become less either.

One of the busiest stops on both the 78a and 51b/c route is the first stop on Emmet Road

thomasj

Just wondering is there any update on the date the planned Ballymun/clondalkin changes are expected to start?

phasers

CIE wrote: »

the 78A (later to be 40) still has too much out-of-the-way running via Neilstown, Balgaddy and Rowlagh, trying to serve too many areas at once while coming back around to Liffey Valley Centre (this was one of the real weaknesses of cancelling the frequent 51 Neilstown). Passengers prefer the direct routing; they'd never voluntarily drive the way some of these bus routes go.

A lot of 78a passengers live in those out-of-the-way areas you know.

Stevek101

thomasj wrote: »

Just wondering is there any update on the date the planned Ballymun/clondalkin changes are expected to start?

Drivers have been out route training the past week or two on the 13, so its imminent. It was suppose to be implemented on this Sunday the 25th. It'd say it's a safe enough bet to assume it'll have begun the following week 2nd October now.

thomasj

Stevek101 wrote: »

Drivers have been out route training the past week or two on the 13, so its imminent. It was suppose to be implemented on this Sunday the 25th. It'd say it's a safe enough bet to assume it'll have begun the following week 2nd October now.

Thanks for that Stevek.

Will we see the timetables today and will the 76 changes be in the coming changes?

Stevek101

thomasj wrote: »

Thanks for that Stevek.

Will we see the timetables today and will the 76 changes be in the coming changes?

If its going live on the 2nd we should see the timetables either today or Monday. I thought the 76 changes were going ahead with the realignment of the 26. So I am not too sure on that one.

dynamick

Does anyone know when the orbital routes 175 and 75 will be changed?

KD345

Changes to bus services in Clondalkin, Inchicore, Drumcondra and Ballymun


http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/News-Centre/Travel-News/Changes-to-bus-services-in-Clondalkin-Inchicore-Drumcondra-and-Ballymun/

Dublin Bus is pleased to announce revised proposals for services in Ballymun and North Clondalkin as part of Network Direct. These improvements will be implemented on Sunday 2nd October and will provide our customers with significant service enhancements including more direct routes, faster journey times, improved frequency and a cross city route.


Key Network Changes

Routes 13/a and 51b/c will be amalgamated and operate as Route 13. It will provide a high frequency cross city connection between Ballymun and Clondalkin via Balbutcher Lane, Ballymun Main Street, DCU, Drumcondra, O'Connell Street, Dame Street, St. James's Hospital, Emmet Road, Inchicore, Naas Road, Woodford, Clondalkin Village and Bawnogue. Journey times will now be significantly improved with trips to/from the city centre from Ballymun no longer operating via the Silogue and Coultry loops. Bawongue and Drumcondra will experience a significant improvement in frequency on the revised Route 13.

Route 221 will operate every 30 minutes during the day time linking Shangan, Coultry and Silloge with Ballymun (Shopping Centre).


Route 220 will now operate from Shangan providing a direct link to Poppintree, Finglas, Ballycoolin, Blanchardstown and Mulhuddart. Route 220 will also serve Deanstown in Finglas.


Route 17a is now more direct and currently operates from Kilbarrack via Ballymun to Blanchardstown Centre. It operates every 10 minutes at peak times toward Blanchardstown Centre in the mornings with a 20 minute service throughout the day.
Route 76 will operate from Tallaght Square to Chapelizod via Clondalkin Village, Neilstown, Liffey Valley SC and Ballyfermot Road.


Route 76a will operate from Tallaght Square to Blanchardstown Centre via Neilstown, Liffey Valley, N4 and M50.


Route 68 now operates to the city centre (Hawkins Street) via Newcastle, Cherrywood, Clondalkin Village, Monastery Road, Inchicore, Bulfin Road, South Circular Road, Camden Street and Dame Street providing new connections for our customers to key business and leisure centres.


Route 69 operates to the city centre (Hawkins Street) from Rathcoole via St John’s Wood, Clondalkin Village, Monastery Road, Inchicore, Con Colbert Road, Parkgate Street and Dame Street.


Route 51d will have a revision to the evening timetable, there is no change to the morning timetable.


Routes 4, 17a, 51x, 69x and 151 will remain unchanged.

Dyr

I wonder how they think they'll improve journey times when the 13 is now being pushed through the much slower drumcondra route instead of the whitworth road

LXFlyer

dynamick wrote: »

Does anyone know when the orbital routes 175 and 75 will be changed?

No date set yet.

The first any of us will know about it will be when it's announced on the Dublin Bus website.

They appear to be focussing on the changes that deliver cost savings first.

Baron de Robeck

[back in the 80s, the genii in the government also bought the KD-class, which was amazingly too tall for the clearance under the Sarsfield Road bridge, so while other bus routes got the KDs, the Ballyfermot routes were stuck with the Atlanteans until the Olympians arrived. ]


The KD did operate on the 78A and 79 in later years. When the 79 was converted for "Autofare" operation KD321/2 were specifically allocated to it to provide extra capacity. Maybe by that stage there was greater clearance under Sarsfield Bridge. Many of the drivers and passengers were quite happy to "stuck" with Atlanteans with their lower steps, quieter engines and better roadholding.

A2000

Baron de Robeck wrote: »

[back in the 80s, the genii in the government also bought the KD-class, which was amazingly too tall for the clearance under the Sarsfield Road bridge, so while other bus routes got the KDs, the Ballyfermot routes were stuck with the Atlanteans until the Olympians arrived. ]


The KD did operate on the 78A and 79 in later years. When the 79 was converted for "Autofare" operation KD321/2 were specifically allocated to it to provide extra capacity. Maybe by that stage there was greater clearance under Sarsfield Bridge. Many of the drivers and passengers were quite happy to "stuck" with Atlanteans with their lower steps, quieter engines and better roadholding.[/Quote


around early 1990' s the bridge was indeed lifted hence the introduction of kd's on ballyfermot routes

AlekSmart

A2000 wrote: »

Baron de Robeck wrote: »

Around early 1990' s the bridge was indeed lifted hence the introduction of kd's on ballyfermot routes

This being Ireland,we took the well known film title literally...."Don't raise the bridge-Lower the river "

It was in fact easier to actually lower Sarsfield Road than raise the Railway and so it was done !

A2000

AlekSmart wrote: »

A2000 wrote: »

Baron de Robeck wrote: »

Around early 1990' s the bridge was indeed lifted hence the introduction of kd's on ballyfermot routes

This being Ireland,we took the well known film title literally...."Don't raise the bridge-Lower the river "

It was in fact easier to actually lower Sarsfield Road than raise the Railway and so it was done !

The bridge was definetly lifted. You can see the boulders in place from where it was done. Rail replacement bus services to kildare were in place for the duration and buses used con colbert road in both direction. I remember watching progress with interest daily as the boulders were put in place. They sit on the original paraphet for the old bridge. Im not sure but think original height was 14'9 raised to 15'8. Still not high enough for vg's?

CIE

phasers wrote: »

me wrote: »

the 78A (later to be 40) still has too much out-of-the-way running via Neilstown, Balgaddy and Rowlagh, trying to serve too many areas at once while coming back around to Liffey Valley Centre (this was one of the real weaknesses of cancelling the frequent 51 Neilstown). Passengers prefer the direct routing; they'd never voluntarily drive the way some of these bus routes go

A lot of 78a passengers live in those out-of-the-way areas you know

They weren't originally 78A passengers until the 51 was so drastically cut and the 78A rerouted.

Alek Smart wrote: »

It was in fact easier to actually lower Sarsfield Road than raise the Railway

Can't imagine that it was that easy to widen Cork Street and extend it eastward by comparison, but it was done. The question as to why they couldn't widen underneath the bridge on Sarsfield Road to two lanes remains open, of course. (Point is, one done on the cheap with another done not so cheaply; certainly no joined-up thinking infrastructure-wise.)

Good to see that the 220 will be staying. Maybe if/when the extended 17A starts becoming unreliable in the timetable, the 220 will be able to take up the slack? How long does it look like the 221 (which is a glorified Ballymun estate shuttle) will last?

Don't see a revised route 76 timetable yet. Where's the terminus in Chapelizod? and where can you turn a bus in that town anyway?

A2000

CIE wrote: »

phasers wrote: »

me wrote: »

the 78A (later to be 40) still has too much out-of-the-way running via Neilstown, Balgaddy and Rowlagh, trying to serve too many areas at once while coming back around to Liffey Valley Centre (this was one of the real weaknesses of cancelling the frequent 51 Neilstown). Passengers prefer the direct routing; they'd never voluntarily drive the way some of these bus routes go

A lot of 78a passengers live in those out-of-the-way areas you know

They weren't originally 78A passengers until the 51 was so drastically cut and the 78A rerouted.

Alek Smart wrote: »

It was in fact easier to actually lower Sarsfield Road than raise the Railway

Can't imagine that it was that easy to widen Cork Street and extend it eastward by comparison, but it was done. The question as to why they couldn't widen underneath the bridge on Sarsfield Road to two lanes remains open, of course. (Point is, one done on the cheap with another done not so cheaply; certainly no joined-up thinking infrastructure-wise.)

Good to see that the 220 will be staying. Maybe if/when the extended 17A starts becoming unreliable in the timetable, the 220 will be able to take up the slack? How long does it look like the 221 (which is a glorified Ballymun estate shuttle) will last?

Don't see a revised route 76 timetable yet. Where's the terminus in Chapelizod? and where can you turn a bus in that town anyway?[/Quote


the 76 goes under n4 and turns left up by west county hotel to a turning bay only because theres no safe layover or turning point in ballyfermot. It doesnt really serve chapleizod at all.

starviewadams

Wonder which route the new 13 will follow when it reaches Clondalkin Village?ie will it follow the current 51b route(turning right in the village and going down by The Mill Centre)or the current 51c route(left in the village and up past Tesco and the GAA club).

Hopefully (for me anyways) it will be the latter!

BenShermin

dfx- wrote: »

And what about the large number of passengers on Emmet Rd outside Richmond Park and the at times very large (often a bus-full) volume of tourists coming back from Kilmainham Jail? Which the 123 doesn't serve..and that the current 51B/C helps out on. A lightly loaded 51B/C at Inchicore will be very crowded by Thomas St if a 78A doesn't appear - or goes a different route.

An easy problem to solve I think. At peak times the 78a via Kilmainham can take anything up to 30 minutes from Aston Quay to Sarsfield Road, the 78 via John's Road usually just takes 15 minutes. The amount of time saved by routing the bus down John's Road could free up a few buses to run a dedicated Inchicore via Kilmainham to City Centre service.

This new route could do a loop around Memorial Road, onto Con Colbert Road and turn around to have a terminus at Sarsfield Road (Cleary's Pub), This could be made possible by making this section of Sarsfield Road completely one way eastbound, remember no traffic (except buses) has the right of way westbound anyway.

This would never in a million years be implimented anyway, seems the Dublin Bus idea of making their network more "direct" is to run ridiculously long cross city routes on the slowest roads possible to the city avoiding whenever possible the QBC lanes:rolleyes:!!

Instead of implimenting ideas like this, they'd rather run four route 26 buses during the weekday peak period carrying thin air on a so called "improved" route that has been re-aligned away from one of the biggest population centres of West Dublin:(.

AlekSmart

BenShermin wrote: »

Instead of implimenting ideas like this, they'd rather run four route 26 buses during the weekday peak period carrying thin air on a so called "improved" route that has been re-aligned away from one of the biggest population centres of West Dublin:(.

I've no rational answer to BenShermin's point either...?

I wonder if the NTA has been approached specifically on the 26 re-routing issue ?

BenShermin

AlekSmart wrote: »

It was in fact easier to actually lower Sarsfield Road than raise the Railway and so it was done !

I'm actually quite sure that the road was lowered also. If you walk underneath as a pedestrian you can see that the distance from the footpath kerb to the road is huge. This is why metal railings were installed between the footpath and the road on either side underneath the bridge.

I remember bus transfers between Heuston and Kildare also, but I thought this was part of the upgrading of the bridge as part of the Kildare Route Project. I never heard of the bridge being highered. I shall have to ask some of my anorak friends;).

KD345

starviewadams wrote: »

Wonder which route the new 13 will follow when it reaches Clondalkin Village?ie will it follow the current 51b route(turning right in the village and going down by The Mill Centre)or the current 51c route(left in the village and up past Tesco and the GAA club).

Hopefully (for me anyways) it will be the latter!

The new 13 will follow the existing 51B to Grange Castle.

Cherrywood is now covered by the 51D and 68.

starviewadams

Balls,will have to get the bus at Molloys and get off there aswell,about a 20 minute walk each way in the mornings and evenings,lovely.

BenShermin

AlekSmart wrote: »

I wonder if the NTA has been approached specifically on the 26 re-routing issue ?

Probably a really stupid question but do the NTA have a say when a company decides to cancel a route?

I would have assumed Dublin Bus simply cancelled the Ballyfermot routed 26 when the NTA granted Dublin Bus the licence for the current 26 route?