Dublin Bus Network Review

LXFlyer

BenShermin wrote: »

Probably a really stupid question but do the NTA have a say when a company decides to cancel a route?

I would have assumed Dublin Bus simply cancelled the Ballyfermot routed 26 when the NTA granted Dublin Bus the licence for the current 26 route?

Dublin Bus do not have route licences as such. They just have to notify the NTA of proposed changes. However, the NTA must approve every change.

KD345

BenShermin wrote: »

Probably a really stupid question but do the NTA have a say when a company decides to cancel a route?

I would have assumed Dublin Bus simply cancelled the Ballyfermot routed 26 when the NTA granted Dublin Bus the licence for the current 26 route?

Not necessarily. Route 26 still exists from terminus to terminus, it hasn't been cancelled. Dublin Bus probably provided the NTA with passenger figures showing the service was not being used in Ballyfermot, and that there were passenger on the N4 having trouble boarding a bus coming in from Lucan as they were all full, which I've seen happen. Perhaps they felt the 26 was more useful on this corridor instead of Ballyfermot.

Personally, I think it's a shame the 26 has been removed from Ballyfermot. I also think it's a shame it has been taken out of a large chunk of Palmerstown. The stop at the Silver Granite was quite busy. Ideally this route could have been extended to Liffey Valley which would only add about 5 minutes to the route and offer a brand new connection.

LXFlyer

KD345 wrote: »

The new 13 will follow the existing 51B to Grange Castle.

Cherrywood is now covered by the 51D and 68.

Not correct re the 13 route.

The 13 will follow the 51c routing as far as the Fonthill Road South/Nangor Road Junction (i.e. will operate via Convent Road) and then the current 51b routing via New Nangor Road and Bawnogue to Grange Castle.

Telchak

Here's a map of the Clondalkin changes I made to show friends where their buses will be going XD THink I have it all right (:

LXFlyer

KD345 wrote: »

Not necessarily. Route 26 still exists from terminus to terminus, it hasn't been cancelled. Dublin Bus probably provided the NTA with passenger figures showing the service was not being used in Ballyfermot, and that there were passenger on the N4 having trouble boarding a bus coming in from Lucan as they were all full, which I've seen happen. Perhaps they felt the 26 was more useful on this corridor instead of Ballyfermot.

Personally, I think it's a shame the 26 has been removed from Ballyfermot. I also think it's a shame it has been taken out of a large chunk of Palmerstown. The stop at the Silver Granite was quite busy. Ideally this route could have been extended to Liffey Valley which would only add about 5 minutes to the route and offer a brand new connection.

I think you've hit the nail on the head.

Firstly the 26 was re-routed to cover the proposed removal of the 68/69 from Islandbridge and then the proposed removal of the 76/a/b from Ballyfermot. The 69 will still cover the SCR at Islandbridge and the 76 will cover Ballyfermot.

Anecdotally loadings were not great on the 26 in Ballyfermot, and there were people being left behind on the Lucan QBC at Palmerstown, so I would imagine all of those factors made DB have a rethink.

However, I find the choice of outer terminus bizarre as you point out it cuts off the southern end of Kennelsfort Road. I would have thought Liffey Valley was the obvious choice of terminus for this route by bringing it along Kennelsfort Road and Coldcut Road.

As for Ballyfermot - why not just take the 79 off Inchicore Road altogether and follow the 79a routing along Con Colbert Road? That would provide a reasonably quick route to/from the city.

I think loadings to/from Inchicore, Kilmainham and Thomas Street both to Ballyfermot and the city would require the 78a/40 to retain that route.

KD345

lxflyer wrote: »

Not correct re the 13 route.

The 13 will follow the 51c routing as far as the Fonthill Road South/Nangor Road Junction (i.e. will operate via Convent Road) and then the current 51b routing via New Nangor Road and Bawnogue to Grange Castle.

Apologies, you're correct. It serves Convent Road before Bawnogue.

KD345

lxflyer wrote: »

I think loadings to/from Inchicore, Kilmainham and Thomas Street both to Ballyfermot and the city would require the 78a/40 to retain that route.

I agree, there is a lot of local usage along the route between North Clondalkin/Ballyfermot - Ballyfermot/Inchicore/Kilmainham.

Also, perhaps it's just me, but Thomas Street and James' Street are not the bottleneck they once were. Traffic generally moves well.

starviewadams

Traffic on Thomas Street and James Street is usually fine,it's Old Kilmainham to Emmet Road where the bus usually ends up sitting in traffic.

Ben D Bus

KD345 wrote: »

Also, perhaps it's just me, but Thomas Street and James' Street are not the bottleneck they once were. Traffic generally moves well.

Very true. Particularly true outbound since the right turn from Old Kilmainham onto the SCR was banned a few of years back.

Getting through Inchicore outbound with the right turn at the Black Lion can be a bit busy at peak.

CIE wrote:

Just to clear that up: are you saying that there are huge numbers that ride from Ballyfermot (or further west) to Thomas Street and vice-versa? I don't remember that too much on the old 78/A/B; it was more local riders getting on city-bound and getting off westbound. Also, where is your regular stop?

Yes, I get on at Liffey Gaels GAA club. Loads of passengers that are on the bus at that stage get off on Thomas St. There is regularly a queue to get down the stairs to alight at the Spar opposite Catherines Church. Outbound, plenty board at the Francis St junction and at Catherines Church. You have the local traditional shopping, one of the German discounters, the NCAD, and a lot of businesses in the area. Thomas St may look a bit run down but it's a very vibrant area.

Dyr

starviewadams wrote: »

Balls,will have to get the bus at Molloys and get off there aswell,about a 20 minute walk each way in the mornings and evenings,lovely.

Yes but your journey time will be shortened by having a new "more direct" route. :rolleyes:

CIE

Telchak wrote: »

Here's a map of the Clondalkin changes I made to show friends where their buses will be going XD THink I have it all right (:

You have the 68 on Aylmer Road instead of Lock Road and Peamount Road.

Bazzer2

Telchak wrote: »

Here's a map of the Clondalkin changes I made to show friends where their buses will be going XD THink I have it all right (:

Also, the 13 won't be terminating in (or directly serving) Ikea, but at Harristown.

Good effort though!

Dodge

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/13-Revised-Times-/

Anyone else being asked for a log in/password to view those pdfs

CIE

BTW, is this the total end of bus service on New Road in Clondalkin...? Not even the 76 will be running that way anymore?

LXFlyer

Not yet. The 51 and 76/a/b are not changing as part of these changes. It's only the 13, 51b, 51c, 51d, 220 and 221 that are changing.

Final confirmation of the precise 76/a routing has yet to be provided.

ax586

What depot is going to be doing the 13 route is it harristown only or is it harristown and c/road sharing the route

LXFlyer

ax586 wrote: »

What depot is going to be doing the 13 route is it harristown only or is it harristown and c/road sharing the route

Both depots will operate it - as with the 14/20b, 27/77, 40/78a, 15/128, 27b/79 mergers - all are/will be dual garage operated.

qerty

KD345 wrote: »

I agree, there is a lot of local usage along the route between North Clondalkin/Ballyfermot - Ballyfermot/Inchicore/Kilmainham.

Also, perhaps it's just me, but Thomas Street and James' Street are not the bottleneck they once were. Traffic generally moves well.

Spot on
The 78A has huge patronage as a local route. It provides a lot of connections to a lot of frequently used services.

Liffey valley,city centre,ballyfermot/inchicore/collinstown/liberties colleges of further education,schools (13 in Ballyfermot alone), thomas street, and not to mention James's Hospital!

The route (although slow at times) is one of those routes that can't really be changed!

Bazzer2

qerty wrote: »

The route (although slow at times) is one of those routes that can't really be changed!

I don't think that's a reason to deny passengers in outlying areas a quicker service to the city centre. If Blanchardstown can have both a 39 and 39A, Corduff a 38, 38A and 38B, why can't Ballyfermot/North Clondalkin have something similar?

Chris_5339762

Anyone know when the 15 series of changes is coming in?

qerty

Bazzer2 wrote: »

I don't think that's a reason to deny passengers in outlying areas a quicker service to the city centre. If Blanchardstown can have both a 39 and 39A, Corduff a 38, 38A and 38B, why can't Ballyfermot/North Clondalkin have something similar?

I was not suggesting that the Ballyfermot/Clondalkin area should be denied a faster service, I'm just stating that this faster service would have to be a new service (Or taking the 79 out of decies road and running it along sarsfield road) The 78a (40) being rerouted along con-colbert road to make it faster wouldn't work. There is such a high local usage between Clondalkin/Ballyfermot/Inchicore/Kilmainham/James's street that such a move would be mental and would ultimately be reversed.


Speaking about the 40, does anybody know when it will go ahead?

A2000

qerty wrote: »

Bazzer2 wrote: »

I don't think that's a reason to deny passengers in outlying areas a quicker service to the city centre. If Blanchardstown can have both a 39 and 39A, Corduff a 38, 38A and 38B, why can't Ballyfermot/North Clondalkin have something similar?

I was not suggesting that the Ballyfermot/Clondalkin area should be denied a faster service, I'm just stating that this faster service would have to be a new service (Or taking the 79 out of decies road and running it along sarsfield road) The 78a (40) being rerouted along con-colbert road to make it faster wouldn't work. There is such a high local usage between Clondalkin/Ballyfermot/Inchicore/Kilmainham/James's street that such a move would be mental and would ultimately be reversed.


Speaking about the 40, does anybody know when it will go ahead?[/Quot


i still think 26 should run from current terminus through ballyfermot and via route 78 to merrion sq. Would make the 26 viable and provide the direct link ballyfermot deserves and needs.

CIE

qerty wrote: »

The 78A has huge patronage as a local route. It provides a lot of connections to a lot of frequently used services.

Liffey valley, city centre, ballyfermot/inchicore/collinstown/liberties colleges of further education, schools (13 in Ballyfermot alone), thomas street, and not to mention James's Hospital.

The route (although slow at times) is one of those routes that can't really be changed

Wasn't it changed in the past...? Back when the terminus was Balgaddy, the route was more direct. And if you want to count "local" travel, then it currently duplicates the 76 between Ballyfermot and Neilstown/North Clondalkin. Nobody would drive over the route it takes. If the classic 78/A/B routing via the Thomas St/James St corridor still works for the new route 40, then fine, but the western extreme of the route might bear some looking at, because having it as the sole route servicing that area from the city centre is denying choices to a lot of passengers and keeping a lot of them driving their cars, not to mention damaging the average speed. (Or are they just trying to drum up support for "Luas to Lucan"?)

LXFlyer

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Anyone know when the 15 series of changes is coming in?

The first any of us knows is when they announce it on the Dublin Bus website - so the answer to your specific question is no.

The changes are happening on average every two to three weeks, so keep an eye on the website.

LXFlyer

CIE wrote: »

Wasn't it changed in the past...? Back when the terminus was Balgaddy, the route was more direct. And if you want to count "local" travel, then it currently duplicates the 76 between Ballyfermot and Neilstown/North Clondalkin. Nobody would drive over the route it takes. If the classic 78/A/B routing via the Thomas St/James St corridor still works for the new route 40, then fine, but the western extreme of the route might bear some looking at, because having it as the sole route servicing that area from the city centre is denying choices to a lot of passengers and keeping a lot of them driving their cars, not to mention damaging the average speed. (Or are they just trying to drum up support for "Luas to Lucan"?)

The only change was to extend it west to Balgaddy and then to extend it to Liffey Valley offering connections for the residents of Neilstown and Ronanstown to both the shopping centre and the city.

CIE

lxflyer wrote: »

The only change was to extend it west to Balgaddy and then to extend it to Liffey Valley offering connections for the residents of Neilstown and Ronanstown to both the shopping centre and the city.

The latter change is what affects journey times the most. The 78A did not operate via the 51's route in Neilstown until then, and can be considered a more "direct route" prior to that. Was extending the 51 to Liffey Valley Centre ever considered? or running the 78A to St. John's Meadows and thus avoiding the creation of a 51C route?

As for "offering connections", that can be more expediently done via a better transfer-ticket system rather than bus routes that are shaped like Ursa Major or the symbol for "infinity". Keeps routes more direct and more reliable without sacrificing average speed.

KD345

The 78A was extended into Neilstown long before Liffey Valley opened. When it did open the 51 was a peak time service only, so there was no point extending it to the centre.

You seem to think the 51 was a more direct route from Neilstown to the city but I wouldn't agree. Clondalkin village was a nightmare for traffic as was the Nass Road. Neilstown bridge wasn't the most bus friendly road either! The average journey time now from Aston Quay to Neilstown on a 78A is about 40 minutes during the day and perhaps 50/60 minutes at peak. The 51 was no quicker than that. In fact, the 78A was welcomed by many in Neilstown, as the new CitySwift service gave them an 8 min frequency, much better than the timetable of the 51.

Remember, there is still a morning peak time service on the 51 from Neilsown, and Rowlagh and Balgaddy have a direct peak time service with the 51D operating via the N4.

Travel the current 78A route any time of the day and you'll see just how many people use the route to connect between Neilstown and Liffey Valley. Passing through Neilstown today, a Sunday afternoon, and there was an average of 4 people at each stop waiting for the 78A. The bus goes to Liffey Valley because that's where the passengers want to go. It would be wrong for Dublin Bus to continue to terminate the 78A at Balgaddy when so many of its passengers want to travel a few stops further to a major shopping centre.

What happened in the mid 90s really has no relevance to now. Like so many parts of Dublin, Clondalkin is a different place to how it was 15 years ago. Roads have changed, buses and routes have changed and will continue to do so. Peoples traveling habits change and routes adapt.

starviewadams

The current 51C doesn't serve St.Johns Meadows/Greenpark and,the 78A would be going well out of its way to serve it.The 69 does,but isn't frequent enough for me to use,the old 68A was the best route that ever served Greenpark,that and of course the original 51C with it's terminus right beside Greenpark Shopping Centre.

D14

RTPI is now available to almost everyone! Here
This also looks promising

A2000

Any word on how the new 13 is doing?