Dublin Bus Network Review

KD345

HydeRoad wrote: »

Edit: Would there be any merit in renumbering the new route as 170, getting rid of that superfluous 'A,' and giving the rather dowdy and tired old 17A route a new image?

That sounds like a nice idea. The 17A does really stick out and goes against some of the recommendations in the report which criticised confusing route numbering (17/17A).

josephgriffin

Is there any point of tweaking the 104 so its extended to Blanchardstown? It could then cover parts of Finglas the 220 would cover. Give it a better frequency and tidy up its routing up a bit.

Cookie_Monster

KD345 wrote: »

That sounds like a nice idea. The 17A does really stick out and goes against some of the recommendations in the report which criticised confusing route numbering (17/17A).

as does retaining the 46a or e while having no 46. but that ain't ever going to change

Stevek101

Maybe the number changes are coming when the timetables etc will be posted. Talking about number changes now could lead to some confusion?

Aard

Bambi wrote: »

I am not getting off one transport unit to stand at a bus stop for 15 minutes and then being packed onto it like a sardine because it's halfway though its journey..thanks all the same.

The average customer won't be standing for 15 minutes for a transfer. The problem for years has been the point-to-point nature of the service. By providing a high frequency radial network, complemented by local feeder routes, DB will ensure that people can get across the city whenever they want. Some buses go directly into town but come once an hour atm. If you miss it, you have a long wait. With the new system, the bus will come more frequently, but you will have to change to a high-frequency QBC route. In this scenario, if you miss your bus, you'll only have to wait a fraction of the time for the next one.

For ex., on the 84, atm there's often a wait of over an hour. The new 84 comes every 30 mins (even off-peak). Combined with the new 145, this gives an average wait time of 20 minutes off peak, compared to 35 minutes on just the old 84. Added to this, the 145 goes all the way to Heuston. A 15-minute saving is a lot in economic terms. This pattern will be replicated throughout Dublin.

Cookie_Monster

Aard wrote: »

The average customer won't be standing for 15 minutes for a transfer. The problem for years has been the point-to-point nature of the service. By providing a high frequency radial network, complemented by local feeder routes, DB will ensure that people can get across the city whenever they want. Some buses go directly into town but come once an hour atm. If you miss it, you have a long wait. With the new system, the bus will come more frequently, but you will have to change to a high-frequency QBC route. In this scenario, if you miss your bus, you'll only have to wait a fraction of the time for the next one.

For ex., on the 84, atm there's often a wait of over an hour. The new 84 comes every 30 mins (even off-peak). Combined with the new 145, this gives an average wait time of 20 minutes off peak, compared to 35 minutes on just the old 84. Added to this, the 145 goes all the way to Heuston. A 15-minute saving is a lot in economic terms. This pattern will be replicated throughout Dublin.

but in order for this to work properly you need to overhaul thae fare system, which they haven't done. you should be able to pay cash fair that give you an hours travel or point a to b regardless of the changes you require. There is no provision for this.

You can of course buy tickets but not everyone will be willing or able to do this

Mr Trade In

17a/220 route is leaving out Poppintree,also what will the powers that be at Dublin Zoo have to say about the abolition of the 10 service,it will have a serious effect on the gate figures.

KD345

Mr Trade In wrote: »

17a/220 route is leaving out Poppintree,also what will the powers that be at Dublin Zoo have to say about the abolition of the 10 service,it will have a serious effect on the gate figures.

I would imagine they will be quite happy considering they now have a frequent service stretching far beyond Belfield and onto places like Stillorgan, Foxrock, Deansgrange and Dun Laoghaire.

I don't think anybody going to the zoo is too concerned with the actual number on the front of the bus!

Chuchoter

I'm actually so pissed off. These changes do nothing for getting anywhere new for Lucan. What happened to all these orbital routes they were talking about? This is exactly the same as before, just a bit faster. Least I can get into town 15,000 ways though :mad:

Aard

@crayolastereo:
These are not the full and final changes. My guess would be that they'll announce orbital routes for West Dublin at a later date.

The Sparrow

I like this new plan and I hope it is implemented. Every morning I wait for often 15-20 mins on the N11 in Cornelscourt and two 145s and two 84s come at almost the same time. One of the 145s is usually quite packed but the other busses are largely empty. I always thought it was pointless. Now it looks like it will mean much more frequent busses.

Are the stops marked on the route map now the only stops that each bus will make? If so, there is no Stephens Green/ Grafton St stop which may be a goood thing tbh. And no Nassau St stop.

I agree that they need to change the tickets so that they give you an hours worth of bus travel on any service so that you can switch routes. be great if they extended that to Luas and Dart services too.

Its going to be mad to see the 63 in Dun Laoghaire though!

Aard

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

You can of course buy tickets but not everyone will be will or able to do this

What's stopping people from buying the T90 tickets? Cash fares are baroque (much like the fare system itself, as you note), and cause delays.

Aard

The Sparrow wrote: »

I agree that they need to change the tickets so that they give you an hours worth of bus travel on any service so that you can switch routes. be great if they extended that to Luas and Dart services too.

This already exists: Travel 90 tickets. Travel anywhere on Dublin Bus within 90 minutes for €1.80 (a ten-journey adult T90 card costs €18).

Nevyn

Lack of awareness of the tickets and not enough convient places to get them.

KC61

The Sparrow wrote: »

Are the stops marked on the route map now the only stops that each bus will make? If so, there is no Stephens Green/ Grafton St stop which may be a goood thing tbh. And no Nassau St stop.

They are the fare stages not the actual stops.

Bus stops are not changing.

Cookie_Monster

Aard wrote: »

What's stopping people from buying the T90 tickets? Cash fares are baroque (much like the fare system itself, as you note), and cause delays.

not buying in advance, not having the time, not having the cash; only enough change for one trip. being hammered and just falling onto a bus (:D)

KC61

Thaedydal wrote: »

Lack of awareness of the tickets and not enough convient places to get them.

Surely as I said above much of that boils down to an education programme and a change in attitude.

There are over 180 ticket agents throughout the city.

Some ticket machines at busy stops would also address that.

Aard

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

not buying in advance, not having the time, not having the cash; only enough change for one trip.

Why can't people buy them in advance? Just keep one in the wallet. They last a year, so it wouldn't be wasted money.

The Sparrow

Aard wrote: »

This already exists: Travel 90 tickets. Travel anywhere on Dublin Bus within 90 minutes for €1.80 (a ten-journey adult T90 card costs €18).

Yeah I know, I use them. But no matter what anyone says, at some stage you will forget to buy a ticket or be out somewhere without it or just run out of journeys without realising it and have to buy a ticket. Or if you very rarely use busses you will not be prepared with a ticket. So tickets will still be bought on the bus and with this new system you will have to get another connection so they should make each ticket last an hour.

I don't see what the big deal would be?

hardCopy

There's no incentive to buy in advance for some people. My fare is €1.80 each way and no ticket makes this cheaper. Annual tickets are useless because I cycle half the time.

The old travel ten cards were great. The could be used one trip at a time and didn't have a 1 month use by date. I never understood why they were phased out.

Dyr

Aard wrote: »

The average customer won't be standing for 15 minutes for a transfer. The problem for years has been the point-to-point nature of the service. By providing a high frequency radial network, complemented by local feeder routes, DB will ensure that people can get across the city whenever they want. Some buses go directly into town but come once an hour atm. If you miss it, you have a long wait. With the new system, the bus will come more frequently, but you will have to change to a high-frequency QBC route. In this scenario, if you miss your bus, you'll only have to wait a fraction of the time for the next one.

Dublin bus havent been able to get busses to bus stops reliably for as long as I've used them. I doubt very much this plan has cracked that little conundrum. The problem is that they can't deliver a consistent service..the more variables and interdependencies you give DB and their staff, the more scope they have to make a mess of it.

I can remember back to the waffle that was spouted when they were pulling the 36/a out of ballymun about how it would improve the service when in fact it was less buses, less seats and less coverage. This sounds like more of the same to me, nice buzzwords like "easier" and "simpler" that will boil down to one thing...less, less coverage, less seats, less routes.

Not to mention that multiple changes just do not work for people who are not familiar with the city or the routes.

AlekSmart

I'm a bit surprised they didn't remove the dog-leg where it deviates off Killarney Road to go down Herbert Road for just one junction, not that I'm really complaining since it now virtually goes right past the end of my road, but an extra 8 or 9 mins walk wouldn't have killed me

Spot on Alun.

It`s this kind of slip that tells me little is REALLY changing.

Allowing the 145 to proceed directly along the Killarney Road actually opens up a substantial new catchment area alongside it.
The Traffic Signals at the Killarney Road/Kilbride Lane junction really do impede this service.
The 45A offers enough choice to the Herbert Road customers who would still be able to choose their preferred route with relative ease.
BAC really do NEED to embrace the spirit of Deloitte in its entirety instead of spoling the ship for a h`àpworth of tar.

Interestingly Phase 2 will most likely see the ending of one of Dublins oldest cross-city routes ,the 11.
Word is that it will be operating only from Sandyford (Perhaps Belarmine ?) to the City Centre via an indeterminate routing as yet......the 62 returneth..????

Aard

The Sparrow wrote: »

... So tickets will still be bought on the bus and with this new system you will have to get another connection so they should make each ticket last an hour.

I don't see what the big deal would be?

I agree that it should be possible to buy a single T90 ticket. Say €2, to incentivise a bulk-buy.

The problem I would think with the paper ticket currently given is that it could easily be forged. DB have a policy against drivers handling money or tickets, but if they got over this the drivers could hand a customer a single T90 card for the €2 and then the customer validates it in the machine. It's pretty sloppy, but I can't think of any other way off-hand to cater for such a situation.

xper

AlekSmart wrote: »

Spot on Alun.
It`s this kind of slip that tells me little is REALLY changing.

Yes, that continuation of the around-the-houses tour of south west Bray flies in the face of the stated objective. I would suggest that they run directly along Kilarney Rd and make a new short deviation to run up the slip road to the Southern Cross Retail park roundabout and have a bus stop there serving the western end of the Southern Cross, currently a long way from the nearest 145 bus stop. IIRC, there's a bus lane between the Retail park roundabout and the Kilarney Road roundabout so that may actually be quicker in heavy traffic than the 'direct' route.


The initial shock of seeing the 84 route truncated is overcome IF the integration with the 145 route is made work. This is absolutely essential. Otherwise they're killing it like they've killed the 45. There is no mention of the 184 - will they now cop on and schedule it to run equidistant in the gaps between the 84's and not within five minutes of it? That gives a a Bray-Greystones-Charlesland service every 15 minutes.



A broader observation on bus changing....
I hope DB and the local authorities think long and hard about helping people make their now obligatory bus changes. I would suggest that a small number of strategic bus stops at relevant locations be designated as Bus Interchanges. These would feature
- large bus bays (using multiple angled-in parking points where space allows)
- large capacity shelters
- extra seating
- very well lit and security cameras (if you're going to make a young wan get off half way home, look after her)
- RTI displays and maps
- On-bus announcements ("Change here for ...")
- active management by supervisors and drivers using the vehicle location system to co-ordinate change overs (there's nothing worse than seeing the bus you want to catch pulling out as your pulls in).

mrsdewinter

Very interesting... plenty of scope for commuters like myself. I live near the 39A route but had discounted it because although it had its terminus in town, it seemed somehow to always spit me out in the middle of nowhere. The proposed new route looks very promising. Where do I sign up?

AlekSmart

I hope DB and the local authorities think long and hard about helping people make their now obligatory bus changes. I would suggest that a small number of strategic bus stops at relevant locations be designated as Bus Interchanges. These would feature
- large bus bays (using multiple angled-in parking points where space allows)
- large capacity shelters
- extra seating
- very well lit and security cameras (if you're going to make a young wan get off half way home, look after her)
- RTI displays and maps
- On-bus announcements ("Change here for ...")
- active management by supervisors and drivers using the vehicle location system to co-ordinate change overs (there's nothing worse than seeing the bus you want to catch pulling out as your pulls in).

Xper has it dead-on here and coincedentally highlights the very point I try to make....this current Dublin Bus plan cannot work in isolation.
For a major alteration in Public Transport thinking such as this the other Civic and Administrative Agencies MUST be fully involved from day 1.

If anybody needs an illustration of what may happen to the actuality of this Network Direct plan then just take a look at the Stillorgan Road Super-Shelter and other assorted delerict pieces of recently cunstructed infrastructure along the country`s premier QBC.

This Super-Shelter,intended to offer comfortable accomadation and secure waiting space has been derelict for some years now,a blackened Coventry Cathederal of a Bus Shelter at St Laurences Park on the N11.

Nobody,it seems is prepared to accept responsibility for its upkeep and so it lies strewn with refuse and all manner of other waste as a stark example of where exactly Public Transport and it`s users stand in the pecking order of Irish Public Administration.

Add that to the numerous broken shells of Bicycle Shelters dotted along the N11 and you get a rather bleak outline of why NOT to use Public Transport.

Network Direct deserves support and encouragement,but we have a long way to go before we can aspire to mainland European standards of Public Transport...the only way to achieve this is to start kicking asses other than Dublin Bus one`s !!!!

Cookie_Monster

Is it just me or is there nothing in the papers today about this. I can't see anything up on independant.ie anyway, strange!

Zebra3

I wonder why the map for "Lucan" has the Hitching Post still on it but not the factory across the road that employs about 4,000 people.

eejoynt

It would seem that we are getting to a bus route network that is not based on the tram network
follow this link

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/exhibition/dublin/transport/9.html

most of the routes below 25 are old tram routes, reflect on this you 16/ 16A passengers as you turn right at Leonard's Corner and crawl down the SCR rather than teking the direct rout down clanbrassil street!

JHMEG

Zebra3 wrote: »

I wonder why the map for "Lucan" has the Hitching Post still on it but not the factory across the road that employs about 4,000 people.

Should be called Lidl, Intel, or Leixlip Amenities Centre alright. I doubt whoever drew the map was familiar with that part of the network.