Dublin Bus Network Review

angel01

markpb wrote: »

Why would anyone assume they want less people to use the Luas? That's a fight that DB are never going to win (if only because of peoples natural preference for trains over buses).



I'm one of those people who commutes from the northside to Sandyford and I don't have a problem with this plan. I do occasionally use the bus instead of the Luas (because it brings me right across the city centre) but I would never, ever advocate DB allocating more buses to compete with the Luas.

What I would like to see are more cross-city routes which do not go through the city centre. I've mentioned it before here but a bus route that uses the Eastlink or Samuel Beckett would save a lot of time. Similarly, I think a route that crosses the city west of the city centre would also be useful. I also think that they should use this opportunity to beef up the Sandyford, Dart and Luas feeder services. The 17a is being made more frequent which is great for Howth Junction - they need to repeat this all over the city. Shorter routes that serve local areas are vital. Almost everyone I work with lives near Sandyford but few, if any, use buses to get there so the traffic jams continue.

How many buses does it take you on an average day? It is not about putting extra buses to compete, they are already doing that already on several routes. I think Merrion Square is not the correct location to start a bus on, it really isn't that central in my opinion.

markpb

angel01 wrote: »

How many buses does it take you on an average day? It is not about putting extra buses to compete, they are already doing that already on several routes. I think Merrion Square is not the correct location to start a bus on, it really isn't that central in my opinion.

17a, 128, Luas or 17a, 16a, Luas or some variation of the above. Lets not get into a how-crappy-is-my-commute contest, I'd gladly spend less than 60-90 minutes each way to get to work but running buses in parallel with Luas is not the way to go about it. If I had my way, the 130, 7 and 45 which run parallel to the Dart would also be cut back but Irish Rail are such a terrible operator, I can understand peoples switch to DB.

Merrion Square might not be central but it makes a useful hub for lots of other buses (like the 27x) which cross the city centre.

BluntGuy

I think one of the great things that this network review has brought to the fore is the latent potential not just in our bus services, but in our rail and tram services if we can integrate them properly and get frequencies up to scratch. I genuinely wish DB well with this and hope that Irish Rail carry out a similar exercise to bring their operations into the 21st century, especially if they're going to be operating two high-frequency DART lines come 2018/19/20 (or whenever Interconnector is built).

KC61

markpb wrote: »

17a, 128, Luas or 17a, 16a, Luas or some variation of the above. Lets not get into a how-crappy-is-my-commute contest, I'd gladly spend less than 60-90 minutes each way to get to work but running buses in parallel with Luas is not the way to go about it. If I had my way, the 130, 7 and 45 which run parallel to the Dart would also be cut back but Irish Rail are such a terrible operator, I can understand peoples switch to DB.

Merrion Square might not be central but it makes a useful hub for lots of other buses (like the 27x) which cross the city centre.

With the loadings that are on the 7 and 130 I very much doubt they are going to be cut back. The 4, 4a and 7 have all got very strong loadings.

The 130 in fairness goes to Clontarf and Dollymount much of which is nowhere near the DART.

thomasj

one of the things that has me baffled is the lack of connection between the hartstown/huntstown loop and the blanchardstown centre. (according to that map)

i have heard dublin bus drivers (including a poster here) say that that section is one of if not the busiest on the 39 route surely that would have to be covered?

Or am i missing something?

Bazzer2

thomasj wrote: »

one of the things that has me baffled is the lack of connection between the hartstown/huntstown loop and the blanchardstown centre. (according to that map)

i have heard dublin bus drivers (including a poster here) say that that section is one of if not the busiest on the 39 route surely that would have to be covered?

Or am i missing something?

To me, the map shows an extended 37 in a semi-circle loop, before reaching the Shopping Centre. Maybe that's it?

EDIT: DB have changed the schematic since the last time I saw it. The 37 is now showing as operating direct to the Centre along Blanch Road South, with the 39/39A going via the Loop.

thomasj

thanks for that baz, it seems the 39/a will operate via the centre with the 39 via coolmine and blanch village and the 39a straight down the bypass.

devnull

It is worrying that despite this study having took the last 11 months, that we have already seen several revised versions of those route maps from the ones that were published originally little over 24 hours ago in the first phase of the Network Direct project.

It seems that greater proof reading is required in future to ensure that the information Dublin Bus publishes is actually correct, whilst there has been an improvement in DB information of late, this type of thing is typical of the kind of errors which have occurred in the past.

There are many people at Hawkins Street asking about what is happening in the 39 no longer going to the shopping centre, but now we actually find it is and the first map was an error - all of this hassle drivers and inspectors are getting could have been avoided if someone proof-read the maps.

KC61

I understand that the 39 will go via Clonsilla Village and the 39a via the New Ongar Road, before both serving the Hartstown loop and the Blanchardstown S.C., with the 39 then following the current route and the 39a operating direct onto the bypass.

The problem is that the maps are based on stages which in certain cases take no account of changes in the landscape. The S.C. is not a stage.

No excuse for it though. The maps need to be crystal clear.

expectationlost

how can we tell these changes we need before and after routes and times side by and and on real maps too

stop

KC61 wrote: »

The maps need to be crystal clear.

I believe the OS maps would have been clearer..

Cookie_Monster

stop wrote: »

I believe the OS maps would have been clearer..

mud would have been clearer

devnull wrote: »

It is worrying that despite this study having took the last 11 months, that we have already seen several revised versions of those route maps from the ones that were published originally little over 24 hours ago in the first phase of the Network Direct project.
.

Indeed it is worrying. I hope that it was simple error or request for clearer route due to bad stages rather than pressure from Gov/bosses/unions/lobby groups/vested interests etc

AlekSmart

The problem is that the maps are based on stages which in certain cases take no account of changes in the landscape. The S.C. is not a stage.

Yet again an example of trouble & strife that would never have arisen had the Stage Points been clearly marked for ALL to see and take note of.

This for me is a HUGE issue as yet not recognised by Deloitte or any other investigative body.....Identify the Stage Points to EVERYBODY-Surely this HAS to be a first step in moving the entire system forward IF the current fare-stage operating principle is being retained ?

Nevyn

I had noticed that they moved on of the bus stops on the blakestown road down closer to the shopping center, seems it's to be the last stop before the 39a takes the turn off to the bypass.

patrickbrophy18

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

hmmm... I wonder what that means? obviously there are routes talked about here already impacted by the Luas, but what about the likes of the 4,7,8 which all run directly parallel to the DART for much of their route, will we see an impact here maybe?



frankly I don't believe this either, but we'll have to wait for full implementation to see. I reckon this first phase won't have cuts but later ones will.
Clearly the amalgamation of 39/10/46a will see parts of their original route removed somewhere along the line

Cookie_Monster, to a certain extent you are right regarding the parallel nature of the 8 to the DART as it is essentially a duplicate route. I wont dispute that at all and you're right, it is madness when the DART is already there. A suggestion that I would make to this is to flat out scrap the 7d. From here, reroute the 8 in the direction of the 9 as discussed in another thread and make it half hourly on peak and hourly off peak. This would certainly be a more sensible option. It would provide a new bus route for the people who eventually move into the apartments built on both the grounds of the old Mackey's Garden Center and Dun Laoghaire Golf Club. As there appears to be no route covering the Monkstown Ringroad, it would certainly pick up a great deal of people from there. IADT students from Dalkey and Glenageary would also benefit from this on a short haul basis as would those who go to UCD in the same vain. After all, if a QBC is being built along a stretch of the Upper Glenageary Road by the old Golf Club, the only quick workable way to this without any detours is from the Dalkey end.

The 111 should be rerouted up Johnstown Road and into Macintosh Park with the restoration of it's old frequency. As such it would no longer be a duplicate of the 7 route. It could terminate in Cornelscourt or Carrickmines acting as an alternate route to the Luas. Again, joint up thinking.

Regarding an earlier post on this thread, if the 46E is indeed to avail of the Monkstown Ringroad, that would be a huge detour. This would be madness as it would essentially be a gigantic u-turn. The only sensible route for the 46E would be Merrion Avenue.

The rerouted 63 from Dun Laoghaire will essentially make it a feeder bus to the Carrickmines Luas stop. This very sensible indeed. The 114 should also match this from Blackrock with services on a Sunday. If a feeder bus from Dalkey were introduced to Cherrywood Luas Stop upon it's openning, the interchange system from DART to LUAS between Blackrock and Dalkey would pan out as follows:

1. Blockrock-Sandyford (Improved 114)
2. Dun Laoghaire-Carrickmines (Proposed new 111 and 63)
3. Dalkey-Cherrywood (Perhaps a 112 route)

As you can see, the suggested routes are largely unparallel with the DART leading to a joint up network with little or no duplicates. I also think that an orbital route or routes should be introduced connecting Sandyford, Tallaght, Liffey Valley, Blanchardstown, Ballymun and the Airport so that the focus of their bus needs is not only on their connectivity with town. Again, these routes would have to be implemented in a simple yet joint up way with extremely high frequency. Essentially, areas such as City West would only be a change away from areas like Blanchardstown and Ballymun as opposed to the two or even three changes that many of the commuters currently make between these areas.

Cookie_Monster

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Cookie_Monster, to a certain extent you are right regarding the parallel nature of the 8 to the DART as it is essentially a duplicate route.

Some sensible route suggestions there.

I would however make slightly different ones. The 8 should be binned and the 7d frequency expanded as I think its a much more useful service, connection Dalkey to the N11 corridor to match the DART connecting the coastal corridor.

I'd leave the 111 as is into Loughlinstown, I'm presuming that the 7 will finally be pulled out of Loughlinstown with the later phase release so as to have a decent mini hub at Cherrywood (luas, 7, 84 - hopefully properly built terminus). Hopefully the 7 will also divert down Sallyglen road as intended years ago, saving 10 mins on its route. this will also leave Sallynoggin estates for the 111 to cover.

Further extend the 63 from DL to Dalkey (or every 2nd one) to further cover the gap to the Luas, in terms of running time doesn't add too much.

the 59 route could probably be streamlined a bit but not sure how or where exactly, but its very indirect at the moment.

Bazzer2

Thaedydal wrote: »

I had noticed that they moved on of the bus stops on the blakestown road down closer to the shopping center, seems it's to be the last stop before the 39a takes the turn off to the bypass.

That stop was always there, it was only removed and replaced recently due to bus lane works on Blakestown Road.

KC61

Thaedydal wrote: »

I had noticed that they moved on of the bus stops on the blakestown road down closer to the shopping center, seems it's to be the last stop before the 39a takes the turn off to the bypass.

Just to make clear - I understand that BOTH the 39 and 39a are to serve the Blanchardstown Centre. The 39 will continue via the current route while the 39a will then continue through the centre out onto the bypass.

schemingbohemia

KC61 wrote: »

Just to make clear - I understand that BOTH the 39 and 39a are to serve the Blanchardstown Centre. The 39 will continue via the current route while the 39a will then continue through the centre out onto the bypass.

how does this make the service quicker? while the 39a will be quicker by taking the new ongar road QBC it will still get caught up in the centre traffic before hitting the bypass, won't it?

thomasj

schemingbohemia wrote: »

how does this make the service quicker? while the 39a will be quicker by taking the new ongar road QBC it will still get caught up in the centre traffic before hitting the bypass, won't it?

That is where the centre bus lanes hopefully will help!

KC61

Extra bus lanes I would imagine through the centre to the Quinn building exit if they are not already there.

Ham'nd'egger

Some additional information that is being distributed informally in relation to follow on bus changes....

• The 40/78 merged route will be called the 40 and will run from Liffey Valley to Finglas Place via Finglas locally. The local variations at each end is to be decided in the coming weeks.
• The 83 will no longer run towards Harristown and will likely terminate around Mckee Road.
• The 19A will terminate at Charlestown SC

• The 79A/27B will run from Parkwest to Kilmore as per the old 27B and will drop the run towards Harristown and Coolock Lane.
• The 151 will be extended towards Kishogue station and will continue to serve Docklands station.
  
• The 68/69 will run to and from Red Cow Luas stop only.
  
• Adamstown will receive a new route to the city, the 25B. Both it and the 25A are intended to run via the Palmerstown By Pass.
• The 76 will be re routed to run from Tallaght via Belgard, Clondalkin station, Liffey Valley and the M 50 into Blanchardtown; however it will no longer serve Ballyfermot village.
• A new route will serve also Tallaght to Liffey Valley; this will be the 166.
  
• The 41C will run to Glen Ellan only; the Manor will no longer be served by it.
  
• The 120 will run southside, possibly to Bulfin Road.

Bus routes that will cease to run will include the 3, 10, 19, 38c, 40a, 51c, 76a, 220, 237 and 239.

The Sparrow

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Further extend the 63 from DL to Dalkey (or every 2nd one) to further cover the gap to the Luas, in terms of running time doesn't add too much.

That is actually a brilliant idea. Makes so much sense as Dalkey is a very difficult place to get to without using the Dart.

Cookie_Monster

The Sparrow wrote: »

That is actually a brilliant idea. Makes so much sense as Dalkey is a very difficult place to get to without using the Dart.

I was trying to think of a way to connect Dalkey to Cherrywood Luas but without making the 59 any longer and slower. can't use the 111 either really as designed to serve Loughlinstown, not Cherrywood. New service not really justifiable on numbers basis.

63 expanding there seems to be the best compromise.

devnull

Still no news on the 40D?

Inspector has been telling people at the stop that it was going to be took out of the 40 group in the second phase and run via Navan Road? a bit strange?

murphaph

Where will 68 passengers from Newcastle be able to change onto a high frequency service? The 151 I presume on the Nangor Road? It goes to the Luas Red Cow but that means having a Luas and Bus ticket. When (someday) real integrated fares are introduced it will be no problem to change to Luas, but at present DB need to ensure a bus-bus connection to the city is maintained.

January

Hamndegger wrote: »

Some additional information that is being distributed informally in relation to follow on bus changes....

• The 40/78 merged route will be called the 40 and will run from Liffey Valley to Finglas Place via Finglas locally. The local variations at each end is to be decided in the coming weeks.
• The 83 will no longer run towards Harristown and will likely terminate around Mckee Road.
• The 19A will terminate at Charlestown SC

• The 79A/27B will run from Parkwest to Kilmore as per the old 27B and will drop the run towards Harristown and Coolock Lane.
• The 151 will be extended towards Kishogue station and will continue to serve Docklands station.
  
• The 68/69 will run to and from Red Cow Luas stop only.
  
• Adamstown will receive a new route to the city, the 25B. Both it and the 25A are intended to run via the Palmerstown By Pass.
• The 76 will be re routed to run from Tallaght via Belgard, Clondalkin station, Liffey Valley and the M 50 into Blanchardtown; however it will no longer serve Ballyfermot village.
• A new route will serve also Tallaght to Liffey Valley; this will be the 166.
  
• The 41C will run to Glen Ellan only; the Manor will no longer be served by it.
  
• The 120 will run southside, possibly to Bulfin Road.

Bus routes that will cease to run will include the 3, 10, 19, 38c, 40a, 51c, 76a, 220, 237 and 239.

Is the 238 included in the list of ditched bus routes?

murphaph

angel01 wrote: »

How many buses does it take you on an average day? It is not about putting extra buses to compete, they are already doing that already on several routes. I think Merrion Square is not the correct location to start a bus on, it really isn't that central in my opinion.

I asked you already, but maybe you didn't see it. What is your current route to work and back Angel? Will be interesting to see if the review does anything for you (positive or negative).

markpb

Hamndegger wrote: »

The 79A/27B will run from Parkwest to Kilmore as per the old 27B and will drop the run towards Harristown and Coolock Lane.

The seems odd considering DCC just finished a bus lane the entire length of Coolock Lane (which also benefits the 17a) and boardings are okay(-ish) north of Kilmore despite the ridiculous mess of a timetable they're currently operating.

KC61

adrieanne__x wrote: »

Is the 238 included in the list of ditched bus routes?

It would appear to be but again all of these plans may change as the public consultation takes place.