Dublin Bus Network Review

Corruptedmorals

Does it really take an hour? I'd iamgine it would take 45 minutes off-peak, the 66 is 40.

KC61

Corruptedmorals wrote: »

Does it really take an hour? I'd iamgine it would take 45 minutes off-peak, the 66 is 40.

45/50 minutes would be about right off-peak.

clunked

Any exact details for what is to happen in the Beaumont area especially routes 16/a and 20B? Thanks

antoinolachtnai

Well, the problem with route timings isn't just the absolute time, it's also the variance. What I mean is that if the route timing varies greatly depending on conditions, that is a big problem with the route and will deter users. This will happen if you have more than one bottleneck on a route (you can manage with one big bottleneck, and maybe a second small bottleneck, but any more than that and the schedule gets tough to maintain.)

Stevek101

clunked wrote: »

Any exact details for what is to happen in the Beaumont area especially routes 16/a and 20B? Thanks

From the rumblings around various DB sites. 16/a is to be merged into one route 16a. Leaving from a new terminus in Ballinteer following its current routing to the airport except by passing Beaumont (similar to 41 746 etc.)

20b is to be amalgamated with the 14/14a. Beaumont to Dundrum Luas Station.

27b will revert to its old terminus at Castletimon but will join with route 79 to Ballyfermot.

KC61

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well, the problem with route timings isn't just the absolute time, it's also the variance. What I mean is that if the route timing varies greatly depending on conditions, that is a big problem with the route and will deter users. This will happen if you have more than one bottleneck on a route (you can manage with one big bottleneck, and maybe a second small bottleneck, but any more than that and the schedule gets tough to maintain.)

In other words schedules should always have some recovery time built in for unforeseen delays.

antoinolachtnai

For sure, but if the padding in the schedule is too big, then it just won't work for you, because you won't be able to get enough utilisation out of the vehicle and driver.

More importantly, the congestion will mean the service (and subsequent services) just won't be predictable enough or fast enough for middle-class commuters to depend upon it. Recovery time won't really combat this (although you could try having very rigid intermediate timings, but there is a problem with that too, see next point)

Worst of all, if you have big recovery times built-in, you will end up parking and standing buses around the quays and in various other stupid places at exactly the busiest parts of the day. The result of this will be that if you didn't have congestion to begin with, the parked bus will actually become a cause of congestion on an otherwise free-flowing rush hour.

In practice you can 'manage' one bottleneck, but if you have bottlenecks all along the route, it's very difficult to hold the thing together.

Polar101

I got a leaflet from Brian Lenihan's office, which pretty much said he supports these (Blanch area) changes.

Anyway, changes to the 39 are looking pretty good to me.

KC61

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

For sure, but if the padding in the schedule is too big, then it just won't work for you, because you won't be able to get enough utilisation out of the vehicle and driver.

More importantly, the congestion will mean the service (and subsequent services) just won't be predictable enough or fast enough for middle-class commuters to depend upon it. Recovery time won't really combat this (although you could try having very rigid intermediate timings, but there is a problem with that too, see next point)

Worst of all, if you have big recovery times built-in, you will end up parking and standing buses around the quays and in various other stupid places at exactly the busiest parts of the day. The result of this will be that if you didn't have congestion to begin with, the parked bus will actually become a cause of congestion on an otherwise free-flowing rush hour.

In practice you can 'manage' one bottleneck, but if you have bottlenecks all along the route, it's very difficult to hold the thing together.

Very true.

It's a balancing act and sometimes it can take a few attempts to get right.

The key to this is frequent reliable schedules with easily remembered frequency patterns.

antoinolachtnai

Well, it's also the route. Congestion means that some routes are just unworkable and no schedule will make them work, unless you find some way to greatly reduce the variance in journey times (i.e., reduce congestion).

clunked

Stevek101 wrote: »

From the rumblings around various DB sites. 16/a is to be merged into one route 16a. Leaving from a new terminus in Ballinteer following its current routing to the airport except by passing Beaumont (similar to 41 746 etc.)

20b is to be amalgamated with the 14/14a. Beaumont to Dundrum Luas Station.

27b will revert to its old terminus at Castletimon but will join with route 79 to Ballyfermot.

If that is the case it means a serious diminution of the quality of bus service for the Beaumont area. The 16 group still does good business and I often see people from the Beaumont area travelling northbound towards the airport. Afterall there are plenty of buses from Drumcondra serving the Airport, 41 AND 746. The Beaumont area has a considerable number of OAPs who rely on the comprehensive service that is there at the moment.

If traffic was discouraged from entering Collins Ave from the Swords Road and vice versa with the help of Dublin City Council it would be a win-win for Public Transport in the area. But no we seem to be going for the lazy half-baked approach once more. Serving all the community my A&£€

schemingbohemia

It's between a 5 and 10 minute walk for most people in Beaumont from the current stops on the 16a route and what are guesses at the 'new' route. Not exactly the long retreat from Moscow is it?

The same thing is happening in Monkstown Farm on the 46a route, yes there are going to be some people who will have a further walk to a bus stop but better that and serving most of the community an awful lot better than going through every side street to pick up people and making the service worse for all and having continued declines in passenger numbers.

Ste.phen

clunked wrote: »

If that is the case it means a serious diminution of the quality of bus service for the Beaumont area. The 16 group still does good business and I often see people from the Beaumont area travelling northbound towards the airport. Afterall there are plenty of buses from Drumcondra serving the Airport, 41 AND 746. The Beaumont area has a considerable number of OAPs who rely on the comprehensive service that is there at the moment.

If traffic was discouraged from entering Collins Ave from the Swords Road and vice versa with the help of Dublin City Council it would be a win-win for Public Transport in the area. But no we seem to be going for the lazy half-baked approach once more. Serving all the community my A&£€

If the 20b has more departures than before, the only people worse off are those:
* On collins ave between swords road / beaumont road
* People for whom the Shantalla Road stops for the 16 are vastly closer than the 16/33/41/746 stops at the N1/Swords road or the 20B stops on Beaumont Road

[edit] I see schemingbohemia has made a similar point [/edit]

I moved out of the area about 2 years back so I'm not sure if this is still the case, but the congestion on Collins Ave / Shantalla Road used to be so bad that they had to stop the 16 going through there at all in the mornings, and run contra-flow services starting at the Bingo Hall and working the northbound 16 route as far as the N1 / Shantalla Road junction. This is essentially a permanent solution to that problem (albeit solving it for most of the route's users at the expense of a longer walk for those that used the 4 stops which will be removed)

clunked

I grew up in the area. Indeed I worked on both routes as a CIE/ Dublin Bus employee in a previous existence so I have some knowledge of the situation. As I have said the area contains many OAPs who would NOT be in a position to walk to the Swords Rd. Students use the 16 to travel to Schools in the Beaumont area and from Beaumont to Drumcondra.
Yes Shantalla Road Beaumont Road and Collins Avenue causes problems but if there were joined up thinking between the traffic department of the City Council and Dublin Bus I'm sure that the traffic flow could be improved. In fact the 20B is probably affected by a build up of traffic westbound on Collins Avenue.

Many people from estates such as Elm Mount, Ardmore have no choice but to use the 16 route to get to areas where the 20b is not an option and now would have a considerable walk to the Swords Road to access these routes. Will the 20B be augmented as a service. I doubt it, afterall its been gradually been having buses removed off the route for 25 years. Although I would say that reinstating the 20B as a cross city route all of the time would be most welcome after a gap of 22 years.

in essence This plan for me has the look of nice straight lines on a map but one which will annoy many.

AlekSmart

But if there were joined up thinking between the traffic department of the City Council and Dublin Bus I'm sure that the traffic flow could be improved

Clunked,Hell will comprehensively freeze over long before this particular miracle occurs.

Dublin City Council`s main,and some would say sole,interest in the Network Direct plan is the removal of City Centre Bus Termini,most likely so that it can be reallocated to the Taxi Fraternity.

It`s worth noting that DCC are currently seking submissions from the public regarding the Taxi Rank situation in the City....kinda fortuituous for the Council really....:rolleyes:

Will the 20B be augmented as a service. I doubt it, afterall its been gradually been having buses removed off the route for 25 years.

My understanding of the current 14/20b amalgamation plans are a core frequency of 10 Min Peak and 20 Min Off-Peak which would be quite a significant inprovement on current frequencies ?

saeglopur

Im kinda holding back here until the routes are made official but the current soundings around the 16a are not good. I understand that the beaumont routing is an extra few mins onto a journey but as signs at the airport suggest it is a local route servicing local areas and it's not is if there aren't alternatives. If people want to get into town faster they can use the 747/748 express routes that go directly into town and if they still dont want to go near Beaumont there is the 41 and 746. A lot of the sports facilities for the Beaumont/Artane area are also located along the current 16a route with ALSAA, Sportslink, Whitehall Colmcilles and Trinity College all containing pitches that are used by locals.

Surely a public bus service should offer more to an area than a single route into town?

Also it will be interesting to see if there will be any real changes to the bus service at the airport after the review because at the moment it sounds like db expects the few thousand people working south of the airport to live along/near the old airport road. Areas such as Clarehall, Artane, Coolock, Donnycarney, St. Margarets?, currently are not serviced by a bus route to the airport but contain hundreds of airport workers and Beaumont, Collins Ave seem like they will be added to this list after the review.

Another point about the airport route is that flights start checking in at 3 every morning, while flights land into Dublin well after 12 at night. At the moment there is little or no recognition of this on the db schedule leaving pax and staff alike with no alternative but to get taxis to and from the airport. If the airport is open 24 hours surely there should be some sort of skeleton service throughout the night too (even on Sundays:eek:).

Aard

saeglopur wrote: »

Surely a public bus service should offer more to an area than a single route into town?

I wouldn't agree with that. If everywhere just had a single route into town, with a few orbitals, it shouldn't be difficult to get to most places in the city. It's inefficient if everybody gets to where they want to go (within reason) on just one bus. Transfers will become a lot more common with Network Direct, and once people get used to them, they'll realise that their journey is more frequent and reliable.


(I'm not commenting on your area per se, as I'm not familiar with the routes there.)

clunked

AlekSmart wrote: »

My understanding of the current 14/20b amalgamation plans are a core frequency of 10 Min Peak and 20 Min Off-Peak which would be quite a significant inprovement on current frequencies ?

That certainly is no improvment on the current 20b frequency with a 20 minute off peak freuency. As you are well aware of 'Alek', there is plenty of scope for buses to to run late through Rathmines for example, making the new service far more unreliable than what is currently available.

Clunked aka Shilltpo

clunked

dupiicated post

markpb

Aard wrote: »

It's inefficient if everybody gets to where they want to go (within reason) on just one bus. Transfers will become a lot more common with Network Direct, and once people get used to them, they'll realise that their journey is more frequent and reliable.

In general I agree but asking people who live relatively close to the airport to take two buses to get to work isn't going to encourage many DAA/AL/FR staff to give up their car. I know plenty of people who live between Coolock and Glasnevin who work in the airport and almost all of them drive. DB should be *adding* bus routes to the airport, setting it up as a transport hub. People should be able to take the 747 through DPT and continue their journey (to Swords, Ballymun, Beaumont, etc) by local bus.

DB should be aiming to connect people to their workplaces, especially huge employers like the DAA estate.

KC61

We don't know whether there will be more orbital services yet which may bridge those gaps. I suspect that there may be.

To my mind there is a case for a bus from the Airport to the Beaumont, Malahide Road and Clontarf/Raheny areas.

KC61

markpb wrote: »

In general I agree but asking people who live relatively close to the airport to take two buses to get to work isn't going to encourage many DAA/AL/FR staff to give up their car. I know plenty of people who live between Coolock and Glasnevin who work in the airport and almost all of them drive. DB should be *adding* bus routes to the airport, setting it up as a transport hub. People should be able to take the 747 through DPT and continue their journey (to Swords, Ballymun, Beaumont, etc) by local bus.

DB should be aiming to connect people to their workplaces, especially huge employers like the DAA estate.

The problem with the Airport is the multitude of private operators who could object to such services, or indeed the NTA/DoT which may refuse permission. It isn't as black and white as other areas.

KC61

clunked wrote: »

That certainly is no improvment on the current 20b frequency with a 20 minute off peak freuency. As you are well aware of 'Alek', there is plenty of scope for buses to to run late through Rathmines for example, making the new service far more unreliable than what is currently available.

Clunked aka Shilltpo

The amount of late running has diminished significantly of late - Rathmines Road has an inbound bus lane and the bus gate has had a very positive effect.

The same could be said about the 16/16a through Harolds Cross and the SCR.

RentDayBlues

Guys, I've had a look through but cant see this anywhere so hoping someone might be able to help. Does anyone know if the route reviews are going to affect the 11/11A service?

For those of us unfortunate enough to have to use it, its poor already and if it goes there is really no other bus service to Clonskeagh from town.

Any thoughts?

Stevek101

RentDayBlues wrote: »

Guys, I've had a look through but cant see this anywhere so hoping someone might be able to help. Does anyone know if the route reviews are going to affect the 11/11A service?

For those of us unfortunate enough to have to use it, its poor already and if it goes there is really no other bus service to Clonskeagh from town.

Any thoughts?

The 11a and 11b are to cease operations. The 11 is apparently following the routing of the old 62. I don't recall that bus myself.

schemingbohemia

How far are you from the Luas? Does that not suit?

KC61

They have yet to get to that area in terms of announcements. Anything that could be added would be from the rumour mill.

I would expect that the southside part of the 11 will be retained as there is no other bus service in the area.

RentDayBlues

Thanks for the replies. Too far from the Luas I'm afraid - hoping they don't get rid of it altogether, its the only service in the area! I know someone who asked a Dublin Bus Driver if he knew and he reckoned it was being re-routed to DL!

KC61

RentDayBlues wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. Too far from the Luas I'm afraid - hoping they don't get rid of it altogether, its the only service in the area! I know someone who asked a Dublin Bus Driver if he knew and he reckoned it was being re-routed to DL!

As I said above they have yet to announce what is to happen in the Rathmines/Rathgar areas.

However, I genuinely do expect the 11 to continue as there has to be some service along that route.

Stevek101

KC61 wrote: »

As I said above they have yet to announce what is to happen in the Rathmines/Rathgar areas.

However, I genuinely do expect the 11 to continue as there has to be some service along that route.

11 is to continue from Stillorgan to CC, just with some routing changes. 11a/b are definitely ceasing operations from the winter. It was discussed at the public information meeting.

To add to this Neale Richmond of Glencullen/Sandyford stated:

The first major piece of news is that the 47 bus will now go from Belarmine all the way into the city centre, terminating at Merrion Square. This service had previously terminated at Donnybrook. The route will be largely the same with a slight change being that it will now call at Mount Merrion. The frequency of the service will also remain the same with buses departing every 15 minutes at peak time and every 30 minutes during off peak hours.

There will also be a re-alignment of the 63 bus which will now go from Kilternan to Dun Laoghaire DART station with an increased frequency. The 11A, 11B, 14A, 16A and 48A will all now be cancelled but thankfully there will be no cuts to the 44 route.

These changes will be fleshed out in more detail over the coming months and the new timetables should be operational from November.