Dublin Bus Network Review

KC61

markpb wrote: »

So instead of having buses use the main roads (Ballymun rd/Glasnevin ave) and leaving people with a 5 minute walk, they'll wind through residential housing estates with badly parked cars and speed ramps?

There is a balance to be struck at the end of the day here. Every corridor needs a mix of direct and indirect services. It's how that is achieved is the challenge. You are never going to please everyone.

To my mind if there is a high frequency direct service along each corridor then that is the key. In the case of the Stillorgan QBC, that is the 46a and 145. People are not going to use the 84 for its entire route but in all probability will switch to the 145 in Bray. People are going to have to get used to that idea - and if that involves buying different prepaid tickets so be it.

For me the disappointing part of the 84 change is south of Bray. The 184 and 84 have not been integrated with the result that they leave Bray within 5 minutes of each other, and return fairly close together as well.

There are both positives and negatives out of this process in the first phase.

For me the negatives out of this phase are:
1) The serious curtailment of the 4/4a - I cannot understand that
2) The lack of timetable integration between the 84 and 184 south of Bray and the lack of a consistent 15 minute service due to the 84 extension northwards to UCD - this is a major disappointment.
3) The cancellation of the 746

The positives are:
1) Clear consistent high frequency services on the 46a and 145 - a vast improvement
2) An all day link from Heuston and the Quays to the south city CBD and beyond
3) The removal of deviations from the 46a and 145 - which should deliver far more consistent headways in service
4) The redesign of the service routings around Monkstown Farm

I am inclined to think that the positives do outweigh the negatives, but I think that the negatives will need to be revisited.

In the longer term I believe that customer habits are going to have to change - people will (with a smartcard) be changing buses more often - for example they will use the 47 or 84 to get to the QBC and then switch to a 46a or 145 rather than taking those routes all the way to the city.

schemingbohemia

KC61 wrote: »

Stand at the bottom of Grafton Street from 0730 to 0830 and observe the loadings on outbound 4 and 7 buses - then you'll see what people mean.

apologies i missed the southbound part of devnulls post:o

thomasj

Looks like according to the latest blanchardstown information, 17a has lost it's high frequency status and will terminate at the centre

markpb

thomasj wrote: »

Looks like according to the latest blanchardstown information, 17a has lost it's high frequency status and will terminate at the centre

What's the link for that?

dazmetron

AlekSmart wrote: »

The presence of a large scale Park & Ride at Cherrywood allied to Motorway access may well see these folks decide to drive their car to the Luas...we really needed to short-circuit that possibility with some aggressive and targeted marketing of the sort also badly needed by the 84X route.


A missed opportunity ?

Aggressive marketing is definitely needed for the 84x service. One of the main reasons the 84x to/from Newtownmount Kennedy has been cancelled is Dublin Buses inability to properly promote this service. Things like having the wrong route map on the website and the wrong timetable on bus stops didn't help the service. Neither did the constants complaints on the evening service: "what do you mean this bus doesn't go down the southern cross?". While I have been getting it regularly in the mornings since it first was started, the low loadings particularly out of school/college term made it more than inevitable that the service would be cancelled.

thomasj

Sorry misread the information!

The blanchardstown homepage has been updated and 17a has been removed as a route with peak frequencies of 10 minutes or better. I take it this is down to the reintroduction of the 220.

It does still say a high frequency service from blanchardstown centre to hj dart station

KC61

thomasj wrote: »

Looks like according to the latest blanchardstown information, 17a has lost it's high frequency status and will terminate at the centre

I don't know where you are getting the loss of the high frequency from?

It clearly states on this link (http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Network-Direct/Network-Direct-Phase-1/Blanchardstown/) the following:

A high frequency orbital service from Blanchardstown Centre serving James Connolly Hospital, Snugborough Road, Cappagh Hospital, Finglas, Dublin City University, Santry, Beaumont Hospital, Coolock and Kilbarrack (Howth Junction Rail Station).

Bazzer2

I think Thomasj is right. I'm sure that page used to state the provision of four core routes (17a, 37, 38/a, 39a). Now it's three routes, minus the 17a.

thomasj

Blanchardstown map is also still down since yesterday!

KC61

Bazzer2 wrote: »

I think Thomasj is right. I'm sure that page used to state the provision of four core routes (17a, 37, 38/a, 39a). Now it's three routes, minus the 17a.

It might reduce to every 15 minutes but even that is still an improvement.

Bazzer2

Boards.ie link to the original statement:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055894539

In addition, the 38 as a core route is now being referred to as 38/a, probably meaning the 38a won't be cut back as much as originally planned.

KC61

Bazzer2 wrote: »

Boards.ie link to the original statement:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055894539

In addition, the 38 as a core route is now being referred to as 38/a, probably meaning the 38a won't be cut back as much as originally planned.

Yes I get the impression that the 38a will now be an all day service.

AlekSmart

where's that then?
There is none planned

Apologies Cookie_Monster,you are correct,but I was speaking figuratively in a way.

However I would not be surprised in the slightest if some entreprenurial type made the connection between large tracts of empty space and a money making opportunity,similar to the situation which developed in Sandyford.

My belief is that the original Network Direct 84 proposal effectively short-circuited the need for such thinking,but the current proposal actually provides an impetus for it...?

Cookie_Monster

AlekSmart wrote: »

Apologies Cookie_Monster,you are correct,but I was speaking figuratively in a way.

However I would not be surprised in the slightest if some entreprenurial type made the connection between large tracts of empty space and a money making opportunity,similar to the situation which developed in Sandyford.

One can only hope. Its going to be a crazy few weeks when it first opens and people park all over the Ind est car park and local roads to Tullyvale. I wonder how active parking enforcement will be by both the Ind Estate owners and whoever Tullyvale employs as clampers.

There is a lot of heavy concrete pieces gone into the empty land recently, looks like something may be kicking off. I don't see them being anything to do with the Luas

AlekSmart

Neither did the constants complaints on the evening service: "what do you mean this bus doesn't go down the southern cross?".

This is an element which is VERY easy to avoid if the Driver makes effective use of the PA system.

Mind you the Digital Destination,if set up properly,could help immeasurably...simply programming a flashing NOT SERVING SOUTHERN CROSS element would suffice.

When operating a Newcastle bound 84X I would always make announcements on Departure,at Foxrock Church and importantly,Loughlinstown Hospital.

My intention being to ensure I have NO passenger on board who expects the service to travel via Shankhill,Bray and Lord Meath`s Gate...:)

I would agree totally with Dazmetron on the marketing issue...with a return fare of €3.70 still available via Travel90 It is beyond belief that we cannot entice 72 commuters from the North Wicklow area on a regular basis.

All I can point to is the fact that I still come across people who are unaware of the availability and validity of the Travel90 ticket....now that,by any yardstick,surely represents a failure in marketing terms ?

I believe a combination of the original Network Direct 84 and a rejuvenated 84X would have been a substantial shot-in-the-arm for Public Transport in the North Wicklow region,but,as KC61 points out,if the negatives are not revisited then the positives will suffer ?

thomasj

So I see we are reverting back to the "buses every x minutes" era

As a 39 passenger, I have experience of when this timetable on the route under the cityswift was a flop. I would always be waiting longer than the expected time and frequency often upto 30 minutes even an hour!

Can we trust it will work this time?

dynamick

I guess this is where RTPI comes in

Sulmac

thomasj wrote: »

So I see we are reverting back to the "buses every x minutes" era

As a 39 passenger, I have experience of when this timetable on the route under the cityswift was a flop. I would always be waiting longer than the expected time and frequency often upto 30 minutes even an hour!

Can we trust it will work this time?

I'm not sure, but that could just be the "general timetable". According to yesterday's announcement, there will be new individual timetables showing departure times from that stop (hopefully saying "10:00 / 10:07 / 10:14" instead of "every 7 minutes").

KC61

markpb wrote: »

Giving people 4 working days notice shows just how much contempt DB have for their customers. A proper company would have given people 2 weeks notice, would have been giving out flyers on the affected buses and would have made sure that the maps on their website wouldn't be broken the day you announce large changes (yes, all the affected route maps are broken!).

Whatever hope I had for DB has been dashed - they're just as inept as usual. I'm speechless. Don't forget this is from the company who claimed they could do more with less (buses) and simultaneously put up the ticket prices so everyone in the €1.15, €1.60 and €1.80 zones will all be paying cash for their trips, slowing the buses down even more.

To be honest I don't think that 1 week -v- 2 weeks makes that big a difference. A week is sufficient for most people to take in the changes.

There is a very clear explanation of the changes on page 5 of today's Irish Times - in fact I'd give them credit as it clearly explains the mergers, cancellations etc.

KC61

A much much clearer version of the Blanchardstown QBC map has now been released on the Dublin Bus website:

http://www.dublinbus.ie/PageFiles/5994/New%20Blanchardstown%20Corridor%20v10%20copy.pdf

markpb

KC61 wrote: »

To be honest I don't think that 1 week -v- 2 weeks makes that big a difference. A week is sufficient for most people to take in the changes. There is a very clear explanation of the changes on page 5 of today's Irish Times - in fact I'd give them credit as it clearly explains the mergers, cancellations etc.

I haven't seen that yet and credit to them for that but it's not enough. Lots of people don't check the Irish Times or the website (especially not users of the 4 who won't know that changes to Stillorgan/Wicklow will affect them) so they need to be putting notices on the bus stops and handing out flyers on the buses. They need time for people to figure out how the change affects them. I don't believe four days is enough.

Sulmac wrote: »

I'm not sure, but that could just be the "general timetable". According to yesterday's announcement, there will be new individual timetables showing departure times from that stop (hopefully saying "10:00 / 10:07 / 10:14" instead of "every 7 minutes").

The text of the website is very unclear (to me):

All routes will now have stop-specific departure times at selected locations for e.g. route 46a will have specific departure times from D’Olier Street and UCD Belfield making it easier to plan your journey.

Does this mean all bus stops will have their timetables or a small number of bus stops will be used to mark intermediate departure times?

devnull

What it means is that we will no doubt have a mix of the following at bus stops which is exactly what we have now

1) Bus stops with no information at all other than a stop number
2) Bus stops which has a head which tells you which bus stops there
3) Bus Shelters with displays for a group of routes
4) Bus stops with carousel timetables which I see confuse tourists every day.
5) New style trueform stops which have maps and more info
6) New style trueform stops without maps and less details than previously

The new trueform stops were, whilst not perfect the best of what was previously a very poor bunch of on street information. Now I notice a lot of them in the city centre are having their stage maps taken off them, and just plain timetables in the usual trueform style, which is a regressive step.

The fact that the carousel timetables are still being printed in the old style that has been around for years, with no indication that the times listed on the stops are actually from the terminus I would hope is going to be exterminated in this round of changes and these older carousel style timetables get a new layout, I hoped they would get a similar layout to the trueform layouts, but it never happened.

The info in the bus shelter displays should also be adjusted to be the same format as the trueform stops, again these are using a similar format to the carousel timetables, although at least these tend to have stages listed at the bottom of the timetables which is a bit of improvement.

It is ridiculous we have so many layouts and type of stops going around, a proper review of on street information should result in a common layout that all printed timetables share, but I don't expect that to happen when I see a print on my local carousel dates last week that reads across, with the one for another route reading down.

What I would expect would happen is the trueform stops will get intermediate times on a number of locations, whereas the non trueform ones certainly will not and we'll be stuck with the old style timetables.

KC61

markpb wrote: »

I haven't seen that yet and credit to them for that but it's not enough. Lots of people don't check the Irish Times or the website (especially not users of the 4 who won't know that changes to Stillorgan/Wicklow will affect them) so they need to be putting notices on the bus stops and handing out flyers on the buses. They need time for people to figure out how the change affects them. I don't believe four days is enough.

To be honest Mark, I do think that you underestimate people's ability to take in the changes. I would expect that there will be notices going out on buses pretty much immediately.

markpb wrote: »

The text of the website is very unclear (to me):

All routes will now have stop-specific departure times at selected locations for e.g. route 46a will have specific departure times from D’Olier Street and UCD Belfield making it easier to plan your journey.

Does this mean all bus stops will have their timetables or a small number of bus stops will be used to mark intermediate departure times?

I would read that as stating that certain locations along the route will have a stop specific timetable. Other stops would use the timetable either for that specific stop or one reasonably close by - drawing a timetable up for every single stop would be overkill and would require enormous work in the event of timetable changes in the future.

markpb

KC61 wrote: »

To be honest Mark, I do think that you underestimate people's ability to take in the changes. I would expect that there will be notices going out on buses pretty much immediately.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I think it's a little inconsiderate of DB to give such little notice. IIRC, Irish Rail have to give a minimum of two weeks notice before changing any timetable - I don't see why DB should be any different.

I would read that as stating that certain locations along the route will have a stop specific timetable. Other stops would use the timetable either for that specific stop or one reasonably close by - drawing a timetable up for every single stop would be overkill and would require enormous work in the event of timetable changes in the future.

I've no problem with that - staged timetables are perfectly acceptable to me. But the website says "stop specific departure times" which isn't clear.

thomasj

And the thing is, db have more or less being shouting from the rooftops for the last few weeks that we would be given 2 weeks notice. Everytime I corresponded with them through email or over the phone, that was the last thing they said.

devnull

thomasj wrote: »

And the thing is, db have more or less being shouting from the rooftops for the last few weeks that we would be given 2 weeks notice. Everytime I corresponded with them through email or over the phone, that was the last thing they said.

Those of us who have been around for previous changes in the past have learnt to take what Dublin Bus say with regards to notice with a pinch of salt.They frequently used to post changes on a Friday and implement them on a Sunday.

I spoke to them earlier and they claimed they have never said such thing, and quoted that they are only required to give 5 days notice as per their contract with the NTA.

KC61

devnull wrote: »

Those of us who have been around for previous changes in the past have learnt to take what Dublin Bus say with regards to notice with a pinch of salt.They frequently used to post changes on a Friday and implement them on a Sunday.

I spoke to them earlier and they claimed they have never said such thing, and quoted that they are only required to give 5 days notice as per their contract with the NTA.

I would not disagree re the past - but I do honestly think a week is sufficient.

The ads in the national newspapers are full page ads and are really clear. If you haven't seen them take a look.

I would expect something similar on board the buses.

These changes have been in the pipeline long enough and if agreement is in place then I would say get on with implementing them at this stage.

markpb

KC61 wrote: »

The ads in the national newspapers are full page ads and are really clear. If you haven't seen them take a look.

I just checked out the ad now. It's a huge improvement on everything that's come out of number 59 in the past but it would be easy to miss the fact that two routes have been dropped and there's no mention of the huge reduction in frequency on the 4 - the only mention is an "improved" service on the south-side. I guess it's the best we're going to get from them.

Also, the schematic route map places all the south-side stops at the top and the north-side stops at the bottom. I'm not sure who thought that would be a good idea, perhaps it's because these changes are focused on the south-side? I hope it's not a common theme, it's very confusing

Stevek101

Can we get a scan of these ad's with the maps?

patrickbrophy18

markpb wrote: »

I just checked out the ad now. It's a huge improvement on everything that's come out of number 59 in the past but it would be easy to miss the fact that two routes have been dropped and there's no mention of the huge reduction in frequency on the 4 - the only mention is an "improved" service on the south-side.

What do you mean by "It's a huge improvement on everything that's come out of number 59 in the past"? Do you mean the route number or newspaper page number?