Dublin Bus Network Review

markpb

Stevek101 wrote: »

Can we get a scan of these ad's with the maps?

It's basically this with a list of improvements along the left and two small boxes at the bottom, one showing combined buses and one explaining what passengers on the 746 and 46x should do.

Bazzer2

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

What do you mean by "It's a huge improvement on everything that's come out of number 59 in the past"? Do you mean the route number or newspaper page number?

I think the poster means the Dublin Bus Head Office at 59 Upper O'Connell Street.

Chuchoter

Buses with minor timetable changes like the 25, when will we hear/see those changes? They said they will make more even departure times, does that mean no more 3 hour gaps between buses?

patrickbrophy18

crayolastereo wrote: »

Buses with minor timetable changes like the 25, when will we hear/see those changes? They said they will make more even departure times, does that mean no more 3 hour gaps between buses?

I'm guessing that if gaps like these where reduced that it would mean routes such as the 25 being turned from minor routes to major routes. The 7D is also mentioned as a bus route that may have a minor timetable change. However, I'd say that by minor timetable change, Dublin Bus mean pulling a service or two off these routes which for the 7D will render it completely non-existent! While the previous comment is pure speculation, I will not hold out any hope for it's expansion.

thomasj

Interesting.........

Both the blanchardstown and Lucan maps are saying just the 76a will depart from blanch with the blanchardstown map saying it will only go as far as the square

KC61

crayolastereo wrote: »

Buses with minor timetable changes like the 25, when will we hear/see those changes? They said they will make more even departure times, does that mean no more 3 hour gaps between buses?

Correct -the 25 is planned to be hourly going forward (according to the last version of the plan).

KC61

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

What do you mean by "It's a huge improvement on everything that's come out of number 59 in the past"? Do you mean the route number or newspaper page number?

Sigh - he means Dublin Bus head office at 59 Upper O'Connell Street.

With respect the routes you keep going on about are to be reviewed at a later stage in the review process - it would be far easier for everyone if we keep it to the three areas that are about to be changed now for the moment?

I have no idea what is planned for the Rock Road/Dun Laoghaire/Dalkey areas and nor does anyone else right now, but I'm sure we'll find out in due course. When that is I don't know before you ask.

Patience - I think that there is enough going on in the three areas where change is imminent to keep us all on our toes without worrying about the rest of the routes!

KC61

thomasj wrote: »

Interesting.........

Both the blanchardstown and Lucan maps are saying just the 76a will depart from blanch with the blanchardstown map saying it will only go as far as the square

I imagine that's a typo on the Blanchardstown version as the 76/a/b are not up for review yet!

Bazzer2

crayolastereo wrote: »

Buses with minor timetable changes like the 25, when will we hear/see those changes? They said they will make more even departure times, does that mean no more 3 hour gaps between buses?

I don't quite understand this statement. Current daytime gaps on the 25 are only about one hour apart. By any chance, have you been reading the timetable from top to bottom, instead of from left to right?

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/25/

Chuchoter

Bazzer2 wrote: »

I don't quite understand this statement. Current daytime gaps on the 25 are only about one hour apart. By any chance, have you been reading the timetable from top to bottom, instead of from left to right?

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/25/

On the Sunday towards Lucan, no bus between 17:05 and 20:40, thats a 3hr35min gap :eek:. I know its a Sunday, but an 18:30 bus or something would be brilliant.

thomasj

I Don't think Crayolastereo was specifically referring to the 25 as having a 3 hour frequency

Just asking when routes with small changes like the 25 will be tidied up?

richardjjd

KC61 wrote: »

Not quite no change. The 238 will replace the 236/38c to/from Tyrrelstown. I'd imagine that DB are being restricted by the NTA in terms of what they can do in terms of improving the service linking Blanchardstown and Tyrrelstown due to the URbus services that are not subsidised.

No word yet as to the implementation date.

Apologies - you're right (though you can appreciate local frustrations - the UrBus and Dublin Bus timetables are not integrated and neither are the ticketing systems - but that's a separate whinge!).

robbie_998

thomasj wrote: »

Interesting.........

Both the blanchardstown and Lucan maps are saying just the 76a will depart from blanch with the blanchardstown map saying it will only go as far as the square

on their website it says the 76/a/b will have no route changes but will have minor timetable reviews.

there was a rumor a while back in this thread saying the 76 would go from blanch to lucan to liffey valley to clondalkin then to the square only which would be great and i hope that happens but as i recall being on a bus some woman asked the driver "Is it true that the 76 is gonna stop going through ballyfermot ?" the driver responded with "its only rumors!"

on a side note the 210 should be done away with completely.... i mean just look at it..... 76 should replace it and just finish off by heading to blanch. job done.

xper

AlekSmart wrote: »

Mind you the Digital Destination,if set up properly,could help immeasurably...simply programming a flashing NOT SERVING SOUTHERN CROSS element would suffice.

Correct destination displays are one thing, giving what were two very different routes the same route number was inexplicable. Their web timetables were even seperate with "84X - y'know, the other one" links

When operating a Newcastle bound 84X I would always make announcements on Departure,at Foxrock Church and importantly,Loughlinstown Hospital.

Well done you. I wish other drivers would not be so shy. Or when they are talking to passengers, use the damn PA instead of shouting over their shoulder and, unsuccesfully, the engine noise ... "Was someone back there lookin' for the Raddison?"

My intention being to ensure I have NO passenger on board who expects the service to travel via Shankill, Bray and Lord Meath`s Gate...

Now you mention it, dropping out dated and/or local-knowledge-only stage names would be an idea too. I wager not many know where Lord's Meath Gate is .. and its no longer where DB think it is either.

I should post something actually on topic...
My overall opinion of the Stillorgan QBC changes is that they appear to have gotten the trunk routes correct and in line with the stated goals of the review but they have made a totally avoidable pig's ear of the local/feeder routes and DB's patronage and income will suffer as a result.

Spotted another curiosity... the 84's Saturday frequency (90 min) is now lower than its Sunday frequency (80 min once the latter gets going). Both crap though. In fact, a general decimation of weekend services seems to be the cost-saving penalty we have to pay for the 'improved' weekday services that DB are trumpeting.

Flukey

Thanks to the new "improved" service I am now getting, from Monday I will go from having one bus that brings me almost door to door for work, to having at least one if not two long walks or taking two buses to do the same thing. Now I don't mind long walks, much longer than the ones I may now need, but when you are told it is all part of an improved service, it is a bit annoying.

The 46B is being got rid of and a newly extended 47 will go a different route into town and leave me well short of where I have to go. Because the 47 starts further away, the timing of the arrival to me in the morning will be a bit of a lottery compared to what I currently have. Even if it is predictable, it may not be suitable. The option is to get the 47 part of the way, then change onto another bus (if there is space) and that will get me closer to where I want to go, or I could take a longer walk at the start and go for another bus, again with just a chance of getting on. I could do it and occasionally I actually do something like those options at present when necessary, but it is very annoying that the best option of all is now being taken away. It will still be possible for me to get from my door to my destination, but from next Monday it will be much more awkward and unpredictable. I have a great service at present. Next week's "improvements" will see me lose it. Thank you Dublin Bus. :mad:

All the various Network Direct "improvements" that are being rolled out in the coming months may make the journey of the actual bus itself shorter or quicker, but it ends up adding time and/or uncertainty for many of the passengers. For the driver and for the passengers who get on near the beginning of a route it may be a good thing, but not for many of the rest of the passengers. It is great for some people that a route goes more direct, but not for those that were on the part of the route that is no longer served. The routes themselves may run faster, but that is very little compensation for those who will now have an extra 15 or 20 minutes added to their journey times between walking to a bus, or having to get a second bus, if there is space on it. That lost time will not be made up by the faster service. The drivers and inspectors and the management may see this as an improvement, when they start ticking off shorter terminus to terminus times, but there are going to be a lot of disgruntled passengers losing good services or being inconvenienced as Network Direct kicks in over the coming months.

We get terms that sound lovely, but not when examined closer. For example:

More Direct Routes - means the bus will no longer come as near to you as it used to.

Amalgamated Routes - means your old reliable bus route is now history.

Alternative services available - means you now need to get 2 buses instead of one or walk a lot further to connect with another route.

The changes will be an improvement for some people, but it will be a disimprovement for others.

Aard

You use the word "reliable" above. I have never found DB to be reliable in the slightest, save the 46a.

AlekSmart

In fact, a general decimation of weekend services seems to be the cost-saving penalty we have to pay for the 'improved' weekday services that DB are trumpeting.

Xper gets the prize for spotting the real end-gane here.

No matter how this is dressed up,reality dictates that maintaining or improving a given service level becomes impossible once the reductions in staff and vehicles are completed.

Dublin Bus are en route to becoming a Peak oriented service provider and we can expect far more in the way of these cutbacks as the ND project progresses....mind you the Public Relations angle will,as ever,portray base metal as gold,but that worked for our Bankers and Developers did`nt it ??? :rolleyes:

AlekSmart

You use the word "reliable" above. I have never found DB to be reliable in the slightest, save the 46a.

Perhaps in comparison with Le lignes d`Azur.. ?

Aard

Reliability and a 1 euro flat fare to boot!

KC61

Flukey wrote: »

Thanks to the new "improved" service I am now getting, from Monday I will go from having one bus that brings me almost door to door for work, to having at least one if not two long walks or taking two buses to do the same thing. Now I don't mind long walks, much longer than the ones I may now need, but when you are told it is all part of an improved service, it is a bit annoying.

The 46B is being got rid of and a newly extended 47 will go a different route into town and leave me well short of where I have to go. Because the 47 starts further away, the timing of the arrival to me in the morning will be a bit of a lottery compared to what I currently have. Even if it is predictable, it may not be suitable. The option is to get the 47 part of the way, then change onto another bus (if there is space) and that will get me closer to where I want to go, or I could take a longer walk at the start and go for another bus, again with just a chance of getting on. I could do it and occasionally I actually do something like those options at present when necessary, but it is very annoying that the best option of all is now being taken away. It will still be possible for me to get from my door to my destination, but from next Monday it will be much more awkward and unpredictable. I have a great service at present. Next week's "improvements" will see me lose it. Thank you Dublin Bus. :mad:

All the various Network Direct "improvements" that are being rolled out in the coming months may make the journey of the actual bus itself shorter or quicker, but it ends up adding time and/or uncertainty for many of the passengers. For the driver and for the passengers who get on near the beginning of a route it may be a good thing, but not for many of the rest of the passengers. It is great for some people that a route goes more direct, but not for those that were on the part of the route that is no longer served. The routes themselves may run faster, but that is very little compensation for those who will now have an extra 15 or 20 minutes added to their journey times between walking to a bus, or having to get a second bus, if there is space on it. That lost time will not be made up by the faster service. The drivers and inspectors and the management may see this as an improvement, when they start ticking off shorter terminus to terminus times, but there are going to be a lot of disgruntled passengers losing good services or being inconvenienced as Network Direct kicks in over the coming months.

We get terms that sound lovely, but not when examined closer. For example:

More Direct Routes - means the bus will no longer come as near to you as it used to.

Amalgamated Routes - means your old reliable bus route is now history.

Alternative services available - means you now need to get 2 buses instead of one or walk a lot further to connect with another route.

The changes will be an improvement for some people, but it will be a disimprovement for others.

At the end of the day as I said above there is a price to be paid for a more streamlined service and that will be at the expense of some services like the 46b above. I'm guessing that you're in Mount Merrion, which suggests that you will be no more than a 10 minute walk from a bus on average every 4 minutes in the morning peak between the 46a, 145, 116 and 118. Many people would kill for that level of service.

The economics of the current climate mean that realistically it is not possible for everyone to have door-to-door services. The 46b outside the morning peak often was going around with thin air on board. There has to be a balance struck here.

The core principle is get a high frequency reliable service on each QBC with standard headways between buses which ought to mean that passengers ought not to be waiting abnormally long for a bus. On the Stillorgan QBC those routes are the 46a and 145 (and later the 39a additionally on the inner section).

I do think people will have to get used to perhaps walking a bit further - as it is I have to walk 15 minutes every day from my bus to my work place - it's a pain but you do get used to it and you get some extra exercise!!

On the mornings that I have taken a bus via the Stillorgan QBC I don't see huge hoards of people being left behind at stops, so getting on buses does not appear to be a problem.

People need to see the bigger picture here.

KC61

robbie_998 wrote: »

on their website it says the 76/a/b will have no route changes but will have minor timetable reviews.

there was a rumor a while back in this thread saying the 76 would go from blanch to lucan to liffey valley to clondalkin then to the square only which would be great and i hope that happens but as i recall being on a bus some woman asked the driver "Is it true that the 76 is gonna stop going through ballyfermot ?" the driver responded with "its only rumors!"

on a side note the 210 should be done away with completely.... i mean just look at it..... 76 should replace it and just finish off by heading to blanch. job done.

The western orbital services are the subject of a later phase of the review project.

Dyr

KC61 wrote: »

People need to see the bigger picture here.

Which is what exactly?

dynamick

Flukey wrote: »

All the various Network Direct "improvements" that are being rolled out in the coming months may make the journey of the actual bus itself shorter or quicker, but it ends up adding time and/or uncertainty for many of the passengers. For the driver and for the passengers who get on near the beginning of a route it may be a good thing, but not for many of the rest of the passengers.

You are right that some people will lose out but the key question is whether more people are attracted to the service by the changes than are put off. If more people use the service than before then the changes will be worthwhile.

The new timetable for the 46a schedules 28 minutes for Donnybrook-Dun Laoghaire, whereas before the scheduled time was 50 minutes. The QBC monitoring report carried out each November will track the number of people using the route from before and after the time table changes. That will tell us whether a 44% reduction in journey time attracts more passengers than it discourages. Every time I'm on a bus and it starts its halting meander around Stillorgan shopping centre to save someone a 150m walk, my heart sinks.

I don't want a service that passes my door but that arrives at random, gets held up in housing estate bottlenecks & travels all around the world on a magical mystery tour.

Amalgamated Routes - means your old reliable bus route is now history.

ya wha?

KC61

Bambi wrote: »

Which is what exactly?

That instead of a mish-mash of irregular services going all over the place, a new service is delivered which provides a consistent high frequency service along the QBC routes backed up with local services at lower frequency.

angel01

Flukey wrote: »

Thanks to the new "improved" service I am now getting, from Monday I will go from having one bus that brings me almost door to door for work, to having at least one if not two long walks or taking two buses to do the same thing. Now I don't mind long walks, much longer than the ones I may now need, but when you are told it is all part of an improved service, it is a bit annoying.

The 46B is being got rid of and a newly extended 47 will go a different route into town and leave me well short of where I have to go. Because the 47 starts further away, the timing of the arrival to me in the morning will be a bit of a lottery compared to what I currently have. Even if it is predictable, it may not be suitable. The option is to get the 47 part of the way, then change onto another bus (if there is space) and that will get me closer to where I want to go, or I could take a longer walk at the start and go for another bus, again with just a chance of getting on. I could do it and occasionally I actually do something like those options at present when necessary, but it is very annoying that the best option of all is now being taken away. It will still be possible for me to get from my door to my destination, but from next Monday it will be much more awkward and unpredictable. I have a great service at present. Next week's "improvements" will see me lose it. Thank you Dublin Bus. :mad:

All the various Network Direct "improvements" that are being rolled out in the coming months may make the journey of the actual bus itself shorter or quicker, but it ends up adding time and/or uncertainty for many of the passengers. For the driver and for the passengers who get on near the beginning of a route it may be a good thing, but not for many of the rest of the passengers. It is great for some people that a route goes more direct, but not for those that were on the part of the route that is no longer served. The routes themselves may run faster, but that is very little compensation for those who will now have an extra 15 or 20 minutes added to their journey times between walking to a bus, or having to get a second bus, if there is space on it. That lost time will not be made up by the faster service. The drivers and inspectors and the management may see this as an improvement, when they start ticking off shorter terminus to terminus times, but there are going to be a lot of disgruntled passengers losing good services or being inconvenienced as Network Direct kicks in over the coming months.

We get terms that sound lovely, but not when examined closer. For example:

More Direct Routes - means the bus will no longer come as near to you as it used to.

Amalgamated Routes - means your old reliable bus route is now history.

Alternative services available - means you now need to get 2 buses instead of one or walk a lot further to connect with another route.

The changes will be an improvement for some people, but it will be a disimprovement for others.

You are lucky you could go from your stop to your workplace, I wish I was that lucky, I spend over 2 hours flittering around from bus to bus and then eventual luas, If you have to spend a bit of time walking, so be it, To be honest, you are lucky you had it so good for so long.

Dyr

KC61 wrote: »

That instead of a mish-mash of irregular services going all over the place, a new service is delivered which provides a consistent high frequency service along the QBC routes backed up with local services at lower frequency.

buses are supposed to go all over the place, it's called network coverage and the bus timetables I use aren't irregular the buses just don't show up sometimes :pac:

So the big picture is a cost cutting exercise leaving less routes, can't believe joe public is unhappy with that, no sense of civic duty these paying customers.

paddyland

What I would like to see, and what would make transferring from one bus to another more attractive, is proper interchange points along routes, say for example where route 18 meets some of the radial QBC corridors, or route 17, key interchange locations like Dundrum, Terenure, Blackrock, for example.

These interchange points would consist of a proper bus stop along the main QBC, and perhaps one or two waiting bays for terminating services. There would be a tiny newsstand, selling papers, sweets, tea and coffee, muffins. There would be seating, and a real time display showing the various stopping services. The whole thing would be enclosed by glass, something like a very large bus shelter, with cctv, bright lighting, heat, and perhaps low piped music. The entire edifice would be quite small, say the size of the average large traffic island, like the kiosk in Ballsbridge, small enough to fit anywhere, but large enough to accommodate seating for say fifteen or twenty people, with the newsstand.

There would be a world of difference in using a frequent QBC from the city, and then waiting in one of these for 15 minutes for a lower frequency local bus to your home, than getting off the 46A and standing in the freezing cold and rain on a dark winter's night at a lonely bus stop pole wishing the 114 would come.

You will see these interchanges all over Paris, for example, and they appear to be very successful, and user friendly.

KC61

Bambi wrote: »

buses are supposed to go all over the place, it's called network coverage and the bus timetables I use aren't irregular the buses just don't show up sometimes :pac:

So the big picture is a cost cutting exercise leaving less routes, can't believe joe public is unhappy with that, no sense of civic duty these paying customers.

Yes and no. The key to delivering a reliable solid network is to have core high frequency routes that operate along the QBCs without going into every village/estate along the way, but also to back them up with other routes that do serve those places but at a lower frequency.

That's what's being done here.

On the Stillorgan QBC the 46a, 145 and (later) the 39a will be the three core high frequency routes backed up by the 47 and 84 (and to a lesser extent the 116 and 118) which serve the local areas but at a lower frequency. The 17, 18 and 75 provide orbital connections.

There still is full network coverage - people may need to change buses more often or walk a little further to a high frequency service.

AlekSmart

Aard posted.....

Reliability and a 1 euro flat fare to boot!

Paddyland posted......

You will see these interchanges all over Paris, for example, and they appear to be very successful, and user friendly.

I do not think it`s coincidental that both the above posters mention French cities as providing attractive levels of service.

I have used both Cities Bus services and found exactly the same sense of high quality service levels combined with affordability.

However the French (and Europeans generally) benefit from a far more developed understanding of what urban Public Transport is all about.

Unfortunately for us Irish,our proximity to John Bulls island has left us still wallowing in the wake of Margaret Hilda Thatchers battleship which effectively obliterated the notion of anything being Publicly owned and operated in Her Majesty`s Kingdom.

It is hugely interesting,and not a little bitter-sweet i`m sure,that we are now seeing nearly 40% of Londons Public Transport Services returning back into State owned control...albeit the French,German and Dutch State owned Transport Entities,RATP, DB and Abellio something which must be warming the cockles of many a True Blue Tory in the Home Counties !

ALL that aside,I firmly believe that the French approach of having their Public Transport planned,controlled and operated by the Municipalities which they serve has a proven positive result which our Political leadership really do need to take note of.

For me,it remains one of the really wasted opportunities which full membership of the EEC/EC/EU afforded us,the opportunity to alter our national view of what constitutes "The Greater Good".... :eek:

dynamick

AlekSmart wrote: »

However the French (and Europeans generally) benefit from a far more developed understanding of what urban Public Transport is all about.

There are a lot of public transport strikes in Paris. The drivers get paid a lot less than they do here and they pay higher income taxes.

Unfortunately for us Irish,our proximity to John Bulls island has left us still wallowing in the wake of Margaret Hilda Thatchers battleship which effectively obliterated the notion of anything being Publicly owned and operated in Her Majesty`s Kingdom.

Ah come off it, Aleksmart. Ireland paid Dublin bus 83 million last year to run a 100% state owned service and Dublin Bus lost another 13 million on top of that and nobody in Dublin Bus got a pay cut. They were only told to rationalise their routes when they managed to lose passengers after receiving a 30% fleet increase. How is that Thatcherite?

Luas is publicly owned but privately operated on licence. It seems to be working very well and is an obvious model for the future.

It is hugely interesting,and not a little bitter-sweet i`m sure,that we are now seeing nearly 40% of Londons Public Transport Services returning back into State owned control...albeit the French,German and Dutch State owned Transport Entities,RATP, DB and Abellio something which must be warming the cockles of many a True Blue Tory in the Home Counties !

Yes it is funny. German trains up the tunnel. Deutsche Bahn will be sold off and the french government is banned by state aid rules from stuffing their transport companies full of cash. I'm sure public transport will improve in the uk with the new arrivals.

ALL that aside,I firmly believe that the French approach of having their Public Transport planned,controlled and operated by the Municipalities which they serve has a proven positive result which our Political leadership really do need to take note of.

Ireland is only the size of a French region

For me,it remains one of the really wasted opportunities which full membership of the EEC/EC/EU afforded us,the opportunity to alter our national view of what constitutes "The Greater Good".... :eek:

You're not arguing that EU membership has disimproved transport in Ireland? Nobody in europe made us run stupid empty meandering bus services to please local politicians and rebuild disused railways to please a priest. We did all that on our own.