Dublin Bus Network Review

Chuchoter

KC61 wrote: »

The western orbital services are the subject of a later phase of the review project.

Never heard of this, what areas are these and when will these be happening?

Aard

Afaik, Nice funds its tramway and busses via local taxes, namely property tax and habitation tax. For an apartment in the centre of town, you're looking at about €2,000 in such taxes per year. Irish people get pissy about €200 on a second home. Once people accept local taxes, they'll get better services. As well as that, if local authorities had to fund infrastructure, I doubt that Galway and Clare would prioritise the railway, and would probably have spent it on better intercity and local bus services.

KC61

crayolastereo wrote: »

Never heard of this, what areas are these and when will these be happening?

76/a/b, 210 and 239 are the western orbital routes.

They are to be reorganised at a later stage.

Cool Mo D

Aard wrote: »

Afaik, Nice funds its tramway and busses via local taxes, namely property tax and habitation tax. For an apartment in the centre of town, you're looking at about 2,000 in such taxes per year. Irish people get pissy about 200 on a second home. Once people accept local taxes, they'll get better services. As well as that, if local authorities had to fund infrastructure, I doubt that Galway and Clare would prioritise the railway, and would probably have spent it on better intercity and local bus services.

The local authorities would only be funding local infrastructure - not intercity rail.

I do think that the idea of locally provided services such as waste, water, local roads, and local transport paid for locally is fundamentally sound.

Flukey

KC61 wrote: »

I'm guessing that you're in Mount Merrion, which suggests that you will be no more than a 10 minute walk from a bus on average every 4 minutes in the morning peak between the 46a, 145, 116 and 118. Many people would kill for that level of service.

The economics of the current climate mean that realistically it is not possible for everyone to have door-to-door services. The 46b outside the morning peak often was going around with thin air on board. There has to be a balance struck here.

I'm in Kilmacud actually, a little further away, but that is not the issue. You're talking to a man that is well capable of walking and frequently gets buses to and from Stillorgan, so I am not worried about that. The problem is the way that a change which means the people that use some of the routes going or being adjusted are going to be worse off is sold as being an improvement. Terminus to terminus may be quicker, but for a lot of passengers destination to destination will now be slower. If the likes of the 46B is empty off-peak, and I know it can be, then just retain it at peak times. The 46A can more than make up for a lot of the losses that the periphery routes have.

dynamick wrote: »

The new timetable for the 46a schedules 28 minutes for Donnybrook-Dun Laoghaire, whereas before the scheduled time was 50 minutes. The QBC monitoring report carried out each November will track the number of people using the route from before and after the time table changes. That will tell us whether a 44% reduction in journey time attracts more passengers than it discourages. Every time I'm on a bus and it starts its halting meander around Stillorgan shopping centre to save someone a 150m walk, my heart sinks.

Your heart may sink, but for the people that want those stops, it is a positive thing. Of course it does not suit you, but I am sure there would be people on the bus who would be happier if it didn't stop at your stop. It is a flawed logic to say the majority are happy about it. If you take each individual stop on any route, the majority of the people on the bus at the time will not want to stop at it, as it slows their journey. So if we removed all the stops that the majority on a bus don't want, then there would be no stops at all. There are plenty of meanders on many routes, and although they slow me down I have the common sense to see that some people actually need them to suit them. It would be a lot quicker for the 46A to just go under the UCD flyover or not take the big detour around Mounttown etc. but there are people that want to get on or off at those stops, even if the majority on the bus at the time don't. Every, not just some customers are important.

The ideal for every one of us would be for the bus to serve just two stops: the one you get on at and the one you get off at. All other stops are an inconvenience and slow the journey, but there are other passengers to consider. So while it might slow you down, in order to be a service for all passengers, the buses should go through Stillorgan village, and stay using the slip roads at UCD and doing that detour at Mounttown etc. It is what customers want. A minority yes, but as I've already said, each and every stop is only wanted by a minority of passengers, but they have to be served nonetheless. If we serve every minority, then we serve everybody, which is surely the whole idea.

If you want to bring your logic to the full extreme, then the 46A would be scrapped altogether, as it is more direct to go from town out the Rock Road to Dún Laoghaire instead of going the magical mystery tour that the 46A is. Maybe a compromise might work. It could go part of the Stillorgan Road and maybe turn off at Mount Merrion Avenue or at the junction at Stillorgan and head down Stillorgan Park and on towards the Monskstown Ring Road. That would cut off the major time delay of having to go all the way to Foxrock Church and down through Deans Grange. That would cut far more off the journey time than bypassing Stillorgan village does, wouldn't it? Stuff those that it inconveniences. Sure can't they walk?

On another minor issue, coming back to the 46B et al. Now I know there has been lots of publicity about this with brochures and full page adverts in the newspapers etc., but one place that the advertising is notable by its absence is on the buses themselves. I use the 46B regularly and I have not seen one notice, seen one leaflet or heard one announcement on the bus about its imminent demise. I haven't seen any on the bus stops it particularly serves either. Most passengers probably do know, but I am sure there will be some unaware that use it everyday or at least frequently. Come next week they'll be standing waiting for their usual bus and thinking it is late. I assume the same can be said of other services. With just 3 days of its life left, Dublin Bus should be making sure that every passenger knows, by every means possible. Surely the best way to get the news to them is on the bus itself. They shouldn't be just assuming that everyone knows. Most probably do know, but Dublin Bus should be covering all the bases.

I noted that a number of people were surprised by my use of the term "reliable" when I spoke about the 46B. One goes at about 7:50am, one at 8am and one at 8:15am, all of which get to me very quickly, so I've a good idea of when they arrive. The route that is supposed to be replacing it, will have about a half hour gap between them, and their time of arrival will be far less predictable by the time they get to the heartland of the current 46B. That is not a very good replacement. After leaving the old 46B heartland it will then take a slower and very different route into town. I am presuming it is near the Trinity College end, but the timetable doesn't indicate where on Pearse Street it will terminate. About the only positive thing about the demise of the 46B will be that we will no longer have people with a surprised look wondering why the bus they are on is turning up Fosters Avenue instead of going straight on along the Stillorgan Road. It should never have been called the 46B in the first place but just re-used the 64 (or was it 64A?) that it used to be many years ago before that was removed.

dazmetron

Flukey wrote: »

On another minor issue, coming back to the 46B et al. Now I know there has been lots of publicity about this with brochures and full page adverts in the newspapers etc., but one place that the advertising is notable by its absence is on the buses themselves. I use the 46B regularly and I have not seen one notice, seen one leaflet or heard one announcement on the bus about its imminent demise. I haven't seen any on the bus stops it particularly serves either. Most passengers probably do know, but I am sure there will be some unaware that use it everyday or at least frequently. Come next week they'll be standing waiting for their usual bus and thinking it is late. I assume the same can be said of other services. With just 3 days of its life left, Dublin Bus should be making sure that every passenger knows, by every means possible. Surely the best way to get the news to them is on the bus itself. They shouldn't be just assuming that everyone knows. Most probably do know, but Dublin Bus should be covering all the bases.

.

+1 to that
I get the 84x from Newtownmountkennedy into the city centre each morning which is also being cancelled and as of yet there are no signs of leaflets or posters on the bus or bus stops. I have also yet to see anything similar on the 145 informing passengers of the route changes. As you say, on bus notification of changes is the best (and easiest) way of informing those who are most likely to need to know about the changes and unless this happens between now and Friday, I can see Monday morning being a mess.

While to all intensive purposes, the Phase one Network Direct changes in the North Wicklow and N11 areas are being used as a trial in which Dublin Bus will hopefully learn from their mistakes when introducing changes in other areas, we can still already see several places where they are avoidably slipping up, particularly in terms of communication to their customers.

Telchak

With the the 10 not being cancelled until October (presumably with the Blachardstown phase implementation and the extension of the 39a) does that mean the 10 will run concurrently with the extended 46a all the way to the Phoenix Park

AlekSmart

I get the 84x from Newtownmountkennedy into the city centre each morning which is also being cancelled and as of yet there are no signs of leaflets or posters on the bus or bus stops.

Indeed,and that is to me a damn shame and indicative of a lack of something.....
Here is a hugely marketable Express Bus service with a substantially untapped catchment area,which offers a direct(ish) return journey to An Lar for €3.70......and we admit to being unable to fill seats on it...?

Yet I would be surprised if one could find any highly visible promotional material in or around any of the Newtownmountkennedy area.

I remain convinced that it should be possible to at least have the 84X half-full leaving Newtown each morning.....but it`s all academic now as the accountants have spoken.... :mad:

Dynamik posted...

There are a lot of public transport strikes in Paris. The drivers get paid a lot less than they do here and they pay higher income taxes.

The French are vastly different in social activism than ourselves,but this still leaves them with systems which are highly functional and popular.

It`s certainly true to say the French Bus Driver is paid less than me,but then so are most other employees in France relative to their opposite in Ireland .

Luas is publicly owned but privately operated on licence. It seems to be working very well and is an obvious model for the future.

Quite true,however it`s operator Veolia,has not embarked on a wage-cutting excercise as yet and remains one of the very few employers here to have paid a wage increase this year.

I sense that the suggestion is that a wage cut for Dublin Bus staff is seen as the way to address the problems ?

Perhaps...perhaps not...

German trains up the tunnel. Deutsche Bahn will be sold off and the french government is banned by state aid rules from stuffing their transport companies full of cash. I'm sure public transport will improve in the uk with the new arrivals.

It`s a hoot alright,however the French,and to a lesser extent the Germans,are quite pragmatic about how they interpret EU rules and regulations and with the French having a particularly well developed sense of pride in their national outfits I would not be surprised at creativity carrying the day

I would fully agree that the involvement of the European Groups will improve UK public transport.
Already there is evidence of these entities having a far broader appreciation of where Public Transport fits in the greater scheme of things than their more tightly defined predecessors.

It`s always interesting to note just how easily the French and German Public Transport systems synchronize with the various communes in which they operate,whereas at home and in parts of the UK,Public Transport appears to start from a position of conflict with every other aspect of the urban mix.

You're not arguing that EU membership has disimproved transport in Ireland?

Good Gracious NO !

I`m pondering aloud on how we singularly failed to grasp the golden opportunity to get involved with the European ideals of Public Transport planning and provision..

Whilst our EU membership resulted in vast improvements to our Transport infrastructure generally,I`m of the opinion that we really could have derived great social benefit by developing an understanding of their thinking on Public Transport

Something we could have done on our own too...if we had any interested people ??

KC61

Telchak wrote: »

With the the 10 not being cancelled until October (presumably with the Blachardstown phase implementation and the extension of the 39a) does that mean the 10 will run concurrently with the extended 46a all the way to the Phoenix Park

Yes.

angel01

KC61 wrote: »

Yes.

What a ridiculous decision, while others are getting routes cut back, they get way too many buses running that route. Dublin Bus clearly have zero sense.

KC61

angel01 wrote: »

What a ridiculous decision, while others are getting routes cut back, they get way too many buses running that route. Dublin Bus clearly have zero sense.

It is not quite as black and white as that.

The company presumably got agreement with the NTA and drivers over the changes on the N11 corridor.

However there are still issues I understand with the NTA on the Blanchardstown changes, and with drivers on the Lucan changes.

So, having got agreement on the N11 changes do they sit and wait? I think that it is better to get the first phase up and running. No it's not ideal, but I would imagine that it is only going to last a few weeks.

KC61

Flukey wrote: »

I'm in Kilmacud actually, a little further away, but that is not the issue. You're talking to a man that is well capable of walking and frequently gets buses to and from Stillorgan, so I am not worried about that. The problem is the way that a change which means the people that use some of the routes going or being adjusted are going to be worse off is sold as being an improvement. Terminus to terminus may be quicker, but for a lot of passengers destination to destination will now be slower. If the likes of the 46B is empty off-peak, and I know it can be, then just retain it at peak times. The 46A can more than make up for a lot of the losses that the periphery routes have.

Your heart may sink, but for the people that want those stops, it is a positive thing. Of course it does not suit you, but I am sure there would be people on the bus who would be happier if it didn't stop at your stop. It is a flawed logic to say the majority are happy about it. If you take each individual stop on any route, the majority of the people on the bus at the time will not want to stop at it, as it slows their journey. So if we removed all the stops that the majority on a bus don't want, then there would be no stops at all. There are plenty of meanders on many routes, and although they slow me down I have the common sense to see that some people actually need them to suit them. It would be a lot quicker for the 46A to just go under the UCD flyover or not take the big detour around Mounttown etc. but there are people that want to get on or off at those stops, even if the majority on the bus at the time don't. Every, not just some customers are important.

The ideal for every one of us would be for the bus to serve just two stops: the one you get on at and the one you get off at. All other stops are an inconvenience and slow the journey, but there are other passengers to consider. So while it might slow you down, in order to be a service for all passengers, the buses should go through Stillorgan village, and stay using the slip roads at UCD and doing that detour at Mounttown etc. It is what customers want. A minority yes, but as I've already said, each and every stop is only wanted by a minority of passengers, but they have to be served nonetheless. If we serve every minority, then we serve everybody, which is surely the whole idea.

If you want to bring your logic to the full extreme, then the 46A would be scrapped altogether, as it is more direct to go from town out the Rock Road to Dún Laoghaire instead of going the magical mystery tour that the 46A is. Maybe a compromise might work. It could go part of the Stillorgan Road and maybe turn off at Mount Merrion Avenue or at the junction at Stillorgan and head down Stillorgan Park and on towards the Monskstown Ring Road. That would cut off the major time delay of having to go all the way to Foxrock Church and down through Deans Grange. That would cut far more off the journey time than bypassing Stillorgan village does, wouldn't it? Stuff those that it inconveniences. Sure can't they walk?

On another minor issue, coming back to the 46B et al. Now I know there has been lots of publicity about this with brochures and full page adverts in the newspapers etc., but one place that the advertising is notable by its absence is on the buses themselves. I use the 46B regularly and I have not seen one notice, seen one leaflet or heard one announcement on the bus about its imminent demise. I haven't seen any on the bus stops it particularly serves either. Most passengers probably do know, but I am sure there will be some unaware that use it everyday or at least frequently. Come next week they'll be standing waiting for their usual bus and thinking it is late. I assume the same can be said of other services. With just 3 days of its life left, Dublin Bus should be making sure that every passenger knows, by every means possible. Surely the best way to get the news to them is on the bus itself. They shouldn't be just assuming that everyone knows. Most probably do know, but Dublin Bus should be covering all the bases.

I noted that a number of people were surprised by my use of the term "reliable" when I spoke about the 46B. One goes at about 7:50am, one at 8am and one at 8:15am, all of which get to me very quickly, so I've a good idea of when they arrive. The route that is supposed to be replacing it, will have about a half hour gap between them, and their time of arrival will be far less predictable by the time they get to the heartland of the current 46B. That is not a very good replacement. After leaving the old 46B heartland it will then take a slower and very different route into town. I am presuming it is near the Trinity College end, but the timetable doesn't indicate where on Pearse Street it will terminate. About the only positive thing about the demise of the 46B will be that we will no longer have people with a surprised look wondering why the bus they are on is turning up Fosters Avenue instead of going straight on along the Stillorgan Road. It should never have been called the 46B in the first place but just re-used the 64 (or was it 64A?) that it used to be many years ago before that was removed.

I would say that the majority of people do want a faster more direct and more reliable service along the main corridors and are prepared to walk a little bit further for that.

But for those (such as yourself) you will need to change your pattern - either walk to the QBC or take the 47 and change en route (I would suggest at UCD to any of the 39a, 46a or 145). Given the numbers that leave buses there (and that the 39a will be empty) it should be relatively easy to get on a bus.

The 11 and the LUAS still also serve the Kilmacud area.

Changes to public transport will never please everyone but the key is that there are alternatives (which there certainly are in your case) provided.

oneweb

There's a 2-page spread in Metro
http://edition.pagesuite-professiona...945c89&pnum=10


Did I miss something or is the notice period really just 3 days? As I've posted in another thread...
they must think no-one needs to plan how much further they'll need to walk to a different stop... Wonder if they've put notices on the bus stops for those who don't get to read papers. They do say though that

"We have begun to remove information from bus stops in preparation for the changes and we will start posting new timetables in the week commencing 19th September 2010."

So if you see less information on your bus stop, you should have the cop-on to guess that it'll be changed.

devnull

If what has been suggested really does happen, and timetables are not there on Sunday, because they are removing the old timetables before they put the new ones up, then it just makes a laughing stock of the whole thing, but we should not be surprised as this has happened on several occasions in the past.

I'd have thought the solution was simple, pay someone once to change the timetables and take the old ones down at the weekend, and put the new ones up at the same time. No doubt that would involve in someone in the on street information working over a weekend, and from past experiences that never happens so we will go through the ridiculous procedure of taking the old timetables down Thursday or Friday, and then putting the new ones up next week. Why make it efficient and do it all in one day when someone can do it in two.

It would be ironic now, if DUblin Bus, who have cut down the notice they have given to their passengers, claim they do not have enough notice to change the timetables at stops.

Rock of Gibraltar

Does anyone else think the timetabling for the new 63 route is a bit light around rush hour?
Considering that it is the only bus interchanging with Carrickmines Luas stop, a stop that has no parking.
The new route opens up the Luas to a bunch of new areas, seeing as the route is shorter and the timetabling very regular I can imagine the 63 becoming very popular, maybe a little too popular around rush hour.

schemingbohemia

Flukey wrote: »

I'm in Kilmacud actually, a little further away, but that is not the issue. You're talking to a man that is well capable of walking and frequently gets buses to and from Stillorgan, so I am not worried about that. The problem is the way that a change which means the people that use some of the routes going or being adjusted are going to be worse off is sold as being an improvement. Terminus to terminus may be quicker, but for a lot of passengers destination to destination will now be slower. If the likes of the 46B is empty off-peak, and I know it can be, then just retain it at peak times. The 46A can more than make up for a lot of the losses that the periphery routes have.




Your heart may sink, but for the people that want those stops, it is a positive thing. Of course it does not suit you, but I am sure there would be people on the bus who would be happier if it didn't stop at your stop. It is a flawed logic to say the majority are happy about it. If you take each individual stop on any route, the majority of the people on the bus at the time will not want to stop at it, as it slows their journey. So if we removed all the stops that the majority on a bus don't want, then there would be no stops at all. There are plenty of meanders on many routes, and although they slow me down I have the common sense to see that some people actually need them to suit them. It would be a lot quicker for the 46A to just go under the UCD flyover or not take the big detour around Mounttown etc. but there are people that want to get on or off at those stops, even if the majority on the bus at the time don't. Every, not just some customers are important.

The ideal for every one of us would be for the bus to serve just two stops: the one you get on at and the one you get off at. All other stops are an inconvenience and slow the journey, but there are other passengers to consider. So while it might slow you down, in order to be a service for all passengers, the buses should go through Stillorgan village, and stay using the slip roads at UCD and doing that detour at Mounttown etc. It is what customers want. A minority yes, but as I've already said, each and every stop is only wanted by a minority of passengers, but they have to be served nonetheless. If we serve every minority, then we serve everybody, which is surely the whole idea.

If you want to bring your logic to the full extreme, then the 46A would be scrapped altogether, as it is more direct to go from town out the Rock Road to Dún Laoghaire instead of going the magical mystery tour that the 46A is. Maybe a compromise might work. It could go part of the Stillorgan Road and maybe turn off at Mount Merrion Avenue or at the junction at Stillorgan and head down Stillorgan Park and on towards the Monskstown Ring Road. That would cut off the major time delay of having to go all the way to Foxrock Church and down through Deans Grange. That would cut far more off the journey time than bypassing Stillorgan village does, wouldn't it? Stuff those that it inconveniences. Sure can't they walk?

On another minor issue, coming back to the 46B et al. Now I know there has been lots of publicity about this with brochures and full page adverts in the newspapers etc., but one place that the advertising is notable by its absence is on the buses themselves. I use the 46B regularly and I have not seen one notice, seen one leaflet or heard one announcement on the bus about its imminent demise. I haven't seen any on the bus stops it particularly serves either. Most passengers probably do know, but I am sure there will be some unaware that use it everyday or at least frequently. Come next week they'll be standing waiting for their usual bus and thinking it is late. I assume the same can be said of other services. With just 3 days of its life left, Dublin Bus should be making sure that every passenger knows, by every means possible. Surely the best way to get the news to them is on the bus itself. They shouldn't be just assuming that everyone knows. Most probably do know, but Dublin Bus should be covering all the bases.

I noted that a number of people were surprised by my use of the term "reliable" when I spoke about the 46B. One goes at about 7:50am, one at 8am and one at 8:15am, all of which get to me very quickly, so I've a good idea of when they arrive. The route that is supposed to be replacing it, will have about a half hour gap between them, and their time of arrival will be far less predictable by the time they get to the heartland of the current 46B. That is not a very good replacement. After leaving the old 46B heartland it will then take a slower and very different route into town. I am presuming it is near the Trinity College end, but the timetable doesn't indicate where on Pearse Street it will terminate. About the only positive thing about the demise of the 46B will be that we will no longer have people with a surprised look wondering why the bus they are on is turning up Fosters Avenue instead of going straight on along the Stillorgan Road. It should never have been called the 46B in the first place but just re-used the 64 (or was it 64A?) that it used to be many years ago before that was removed.

Me!Me!Me! You ever think about the greater good at all?

Yes there will be some people that the new services will have a detrimental affect on but for the vast vast majority it will be a more reliable frequent service. Kilmacud isn't exactly a wasteland for public transport you know.

I really do dispair of the selfishness of people, they seem to demand to be dropped from their front door to the front door of their place of employment/socialising at whatever time they wish at a price that they feel it's worth without any consideration of the cost of providing that service to the whole community.

ardmacha

I would read that as stating that certain locations along the route will have a stop specific timetable. Other stops would use the timetable either for that specific stop or one reasonably close by - drawing a timetable up for every single stop would be overkill and would require enormous work in the event of timetable changes in the future.

"We have begun to remove information from bus stops in preparation for the changes and we will start posting new timetables in the week commencing 19th September 2010."

In this day and age of computers and printers, specific timetables can be calculated for each stop at the push of button and printed out individually. Someone armed with these individual timetables could remove the old ones and post the new one as they went along. It is not rocket science and it is an unwillingness to address details like this that ensure that people give these changes little credibility.

the buses should go through Stillorgan village, and stay using the slip roads at UCD

Stillorgan and UCD are probably the two busiest stops outside the canals on the bus corridor.

Flukey

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Me!Me!Me! You ever think about the greater good at all?

Yes there will be some people that the new services will have a detrimental affect on but for the vast vast majority it will be a more reliable frequent service. Kilmacud isn't exactly a wasteland for public transport you know.

I really do dispair of the selfishness of people, they seem to demand to be dropped from their front door to the front door of their place of employment/socialising at whatever time they wish at a price that they feel it's worth without any consideration of the cost of providing that service to the whole community.

If you've read my posts properly you'll see I am prepared to make the changes, and that I already do a lot of those things regularly for years anyway. What I am highlighting is the problems that this will cause for people generally, not just me personally. I've just been using my personal situation to show that. I happen to be a frequent user of one of the buses that does not seem important to Dublin Bus, but it is important to its regular passengers. The "majority" you speak of is made up of people like me, so I am speaking for them. Even for those in the minority, the service they use is of importance to them. I see many of the same people on the 46B very regularly for years now. Their service is as important to them as the more high profile routes are to the people that use those regularly. Terminus to terminus the buses will be faster, but for many of the people that will make little difference as they are not terminus to terminus passengers. Terminus to terminus is not the way to measure the quality of service.

KC61 wrote:

But for those (such as yourself) you will need to change your pattern - either walk to the QBC or take the 47 and change en route (I would suggest at UCD to any of the 39a, 46a or 145). Given the numbers that leave buses there (and that the 39a will be empty) it should be relatively easy to get on a bus.

The 11 and the LUAS still also serve the Kilmacud area.

The 11 is great, but getting it at rush hour is like swimming through mud. As for the Luas, surely Dublin Bus should be trying to take passengers from the competition, not give them more. There are already major gaps in Dublin Bus services that the Luas is filling, like Sunday and Saturday mornings, without handing them even more. I am well aware of the alternatives and I frequently use the likes of the 46A, 10, 145, 84, etc. and I frequently do the swap from the 47 at UCD to one of those. I am far from just a 46B passenger. It won't be a problem for me as I've been doing those things for years. I am just highlighting the obvious flaws in this and blowing the myth that most people will be happy about it. The terminus to terminus mentality that Dublin Bus measure this by, or the idea that just because people get on along a QBC means that they are happy to do so and have not come from far, is wrong. You can be almost certain that the measurement of success of this will be based on the terminus to terminus times and the amount of passengers. People will still have to get the buses to go where they want to go, so the fact they keep doing so does not indicate they will be happy about how they now have to do it. There will be an increase in the people using the likes of the 46A from next week because their own service has been removed, not because the 46A is an improved service. Dublin Bus will use that increase as a justification of the success of their changes, but it isn't. So again it will be a flawed statistic.

On the informing of passengers on the bus issue again, a 46B driver I spoke to today did not even know it was finishing, never mind the passengers. I spoke to a man that normally gets on at the same stop as I do, and he knew nothing about it either. It is the same on other routes from what people are posting in this thread. The changes should have been published on every affected bus route for weeks now, but there has been nothing. We shouldn't be waiting for the first notices of it now, and assuming that everyone knows through other sources. I am not working tomorrow, so that is the end of the 46B for me... unless common sense prevails and Dublin Bus sees the flaws behind the terminus to terminus statistics and the real meaning of the increased amount of passengers statistics. With their track record, we can be certain they won't, so today was it for me. The end of a good era, in favour of a backwards "improvement".

Aard

Flukey wrote: »

As for the Luas, surely Dublin Bus should be trying to take passengers from the competition, not give them more.

Ahhh!!

No, not in the least! They are not competition, they are complementary. The more they are viewed as competition, the further away integrated ticketing will become. Look at Oslo: they have busses, trams, metro, and ferries, all on the same ticket. It's expected that most people in the Northwest of the city will get a bus to Majorstuen, then change to the metro into the city. Take a look at a map of the city: it'd be like most busses stopping in Drumcondra, then turning back, avoiding the city altogether. Once Metro North is built, this is what they should be doing. Negotiating the winding streets of the city centre is not constructive, whereas funnelling people onto grade-seperated rail is.

SafetyPin

I think the new 'route 4' timetable that shouldn't be allowed commence before PHASE 2 of Network Direct is completed (seeing as Ballymun is supposed to be looked upon then). The current 4/a routes are a lifersaver for any commuter from Ballymun as the current fleet of 13/a have become very irregular in recent years and of course stretch into various hosuing estates (serving the entire community - every 20-50minutes). However the CitySwift branding of 13/a were to be every 10mintues obviosuly overtime this has changed and the introduction of the 4/a began.

Supposidly the plans for the new 'route 13' is to take a new route (instead of using it's current route will take on the northside route 11 as it's being cancelled) but that won't happen for a further 3months at least. I don't think it's fair to put Northside commuters at a disadvantage, it's not our fault the 4/a dupilcate the DART on the southside.

sushisushi

For what it's worth, there were guys giving out leaflets about the route changes on the 46a today. I got a new timetable from the guy at the Dun Laoghaire terminus in the morning, and two blue Network Direct leaflets when I got back on at Baker's Corner in the afternoon (one about the general area changes and one for Monkstown Farm).

Sulmac

sushisushi wrote: »

For what it's worth, there were guys giving out leaflets about the route changes on the 46a today. I got a new timetable from the guy at the Dun Laoghaire terminus in the morning, and two blue Network Direct leaflets when I got back on at Baker's Corner in the afternoon (one about the general area changes and one for Monkstown Farm).

Is the timetable any different to the style we have now? In other words, does it show times just from the termini or does it show stops along the way?

Dyr

SafetyPin wrote: »

I think the new 'route 4' timetable that shouldn't be allowed commence before PHASE 2 of Network Direct is completed (seeing as Ballymun is supposed to be looked upon then). The current 4/a routes are a lifersaver for any commuter from Ballymun as the current fleet of 13/a have become very irregular in recent years and of course stretch into various hosuing estates (serving the entire community - every 20-50minutes). However the CitySwift branding of 13/a were to be every 10mintues obviosuly overtime this has changed and the introduction of the 4/a began.

Supposidly the plans for the new 'route 13' is to take a new route (instead of using it's current route will take on the northside route 11 as it's being cancelled) but that won't happen for a further 3months at least. I don't think it's fair to put Northside commuters at a disadvantage, it's not our fault the 4/a dupilcate the DART on the southside.

Sad truth is that once the summers over the 13/a is unreliable even after the move to harristown, only for the 4 taking up the strain ballymun bus stops would be jammed every morning. Timetable revisions aren't going to improve this and turning it into the 11/13 sure won't...you're just going to have people who'll have to walk further to wait the same amount of time for buses that won't show up.

It would be interesting if dublin bus published the current figures for network coverage by route with bus journeys and passenger capacity against what they're proposing with this network direct scheme. Would be better than the market speak approach.

Dyr

Aard wrote: »

Ahhh!!

No, not in the least! They are not competition, they are complementary. The more they are viewed as competition, the further away integrated ticketing will become. Look at Oslo: they have busses, trams, metro, and ferries, all on the same ticket. It's expected that most people in the Northwest of tts he city will get a bus to Majorstuen, then change to the metro into the city. Take a look at a map of the city: it'd be like most busses stopping in Drumcondra, then turning back, avoiding the city altogether. Once Metro North is built, this is what they should be doing. Negotiating the winding streeof the city centre is not constructive, whereas funnelling people onto grade-seperated rail is.

They need to compete, the customer suffers when they are held captive by a monopoly. Giving people access to alternative modes of transport that are not run by an outmoded monolith might force dublin bus to become customer focussed. A complementary model will only ever be as strong as it's weakest link..

sushisushi

Sulmac wrote: »

Is the timetable any different to the style we have now? In other words, does it show times just from the termini or does it show stops along the way?

Nope, it just gives times from the terminus, and a list of the stages below. Pretty much exactly what you get here: http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/46a-Revised-Route/

Cool Mo D

Bambi wrote: »

They need to compete, the customer suffers when they are held captive by a monopoly. Giving people access to alternative modes of transport that are not run by an outmoded monolith might force dublin bus to become customer focussed. A complementary model will only ever be as strong as it's weakest link..

They certainly don't need to compete.

Public transport requires subsidies, so subsidising two companies to run the same routes is a massive waste of money.

Competition in public transport should come from companies competing for the right to run a route, rather than actually running services.

Why would someone need two bus routes, or a bus and Luas when one would do?

What happens if bus companies compete is that buses are withdrawn from quieter routes, and flooded onto busy corridors with predatory pricing, until the most deep-pocketed company drives the others out of business, cuts back services, raises fares, and creams in the profits.

BenShermin

I actually can't believe the stupidity of posts here claiming that Dublin Bus and Luas should complete against each other.

One only has to look at our nearest capital city London to see how idiotic the idea is. Suburban commuters over there never get a bus from the suburbs to the city centre, instead they use the bus as a means to get to a faster form of transport to the city ie. the Tube. The only time you'll ever get a London bus going from the outer suburbs to the city is at night when the Tube is closed between midnight and 5am.


In an ideal world the 46a and the 145 would never exist in their present or Network Direct form and instead these buses would be used as Dart feeder buses feeding 12 to 16 carriage Darts with 5 minute frequencies.

In any other European capital the idea of people commuting a length from North Wicklow to Dublin City by bus when it's directly beside a heavy rail link would be laughed at. In this city however we see it as the norm, and may God help anybody who tries to make that journey faster for the un-intergrated commuter as that person will feel the wrath of Mrs O'67 year old and her local TD who shop in the Stillorgan Shopping Centre.

ardmacha

n any other European capital the idea of people commuting a length from North Wicklow to Dublin City by bus when it's directly beside a heavy rail link would be laughed at. In this city however we see it as the norm, and may God help anybody who tries to make that journey faster for the un-intergrated commuter as that person will feel the wrath of Mrs O'67 year old and her local TD who shop in the Stillorgan Shopping Centre.

The logic of this is that Wicklow commuters should be on the train rather than compromising journeys to Stillorgan that are well suited to a bus.

As for coordination between services you could have a "node" at Sandyford. Peak time express services (75X) could run on the M50 from Tallaght or Wicklow and people could quickly change to services departing for Blackrock and Belfield. As noted here Dublin is completely lacking in sheltered interchange points and lacks the ticketing to make interchange attractive.

dynamick

Flukey wrote: »

[...arguing for the retenetion of the Stillorgan diversion...] but for the people that want those stops, it is a positive thing. Of course it does not suit you, but I am sure there would be people on the bus who would be happier if it didn't stop at your stop. It is a flawed logic to say the majority are happy about it. If you take each individual stop on any route, the majority of the people on the bus at the time will not want to stop at it, as it slows their journey. So if we removed all the stops that the majority on a bus don't want, then there would be no stops at all.

If a change to a public service results in more people being served than before then it is worthwhile. Removing all the bus stops from a service bar the start and end points would result in fewer people taking the bus, so that would be a bad thing to do.

If the network direct changes to the bus service result in fewer people taking the bus then I'll agree with you. However I expect that the significant reduction in journey times and the increased frequencies will attract more new customers than they will lose.

One problem with the communication of route changes in phases is that there is a confusion where different route corridors overlap. Route changes in future phases may affect Flukey in a positive or negative way that he doesn't yet know about. I have been told that the 75 is being rerouted and that a second outer orbital southside route is to be introduced but there are no details published as yet. Maybe the 11 will change...

Flukey

dynamick wrote: »

If the network direct changes to the bus service result in fewer people taking the bus then I'll agree with you. However I expect that the significant reduction in journey times and the increased frequencies will attract more new customers than they will lose.

As I posted out in an earlier post, the likes of the 46A will see an increased usage because of the withdrawal of other routes and this could be dressed up as an actual increase in new passengers when it won't be. When assessing the figures, will they look at just a key route's old and new totals, or will they do the more accurate thing and allow for the users of withdrawn routes within the increase that the maintained route will see from next week? In other words will they really be totally new customers, or just transferred customers who are only new to that route because of the demise of their old one?