Dublin Bus Network Review

Aard

Bambi wrote: »

They need to compete, the customer suffers when they are held captive by a monopoly.

So in order to reduce the power of the monopoly, you suggest that DB "should be trying to take passengers from the competition", i.e. Luas? I'm not sure where to begin with that one.

Dyr

You don't know where to start? Start with the customer

Aard

That is totally avoiding my question. Do you have an answer for it?

Dyr

I think quite the opposite, that our public transport policy should be focussed on giving customers valid alternatives to using dublin bus thus freeing the commuter from reliance on a company that is not reliable.

Both the LUAS and the dublin bikes scheme have shown that we can get things largely right when we don't have to accommodate relic's from the glory days of state monopolies

Aard

You say "focussed on giving customers valid alternatives to using dublin bus". I take it you mean some sort of rail. That's all well and good for the future, but realistically we're looking at a solution way down the line in that regard. For the present, we have to work with what we've got. Let's use the Luas/Dart system that we have to the fullest. The only way of increasing the catchement area of these lines is to bring in people from further-afield. This means either people driving there, or people getting feeder busses there. If every Luas stop had a feeder bus for the surrounding housing estates, things would be easier. Obviously this all relies on an integrated ticket that gives a free transfer from bus to rail.

I have a sneeking suspicion that we actually agree, just that we're coming from opposite sides of the same coin.

dynamick

Flukey wrote: »

As I posted out in an earlier post, the likes of the 46A will see an increased usage because of the withdrawal of other routes and this could be dressed up as an actual increase in new passengers when it won't be. When assessing the figures, will they look at just a key route's old and new totals, or will they do the more accurate thing and allow for the users of withdrawn routes within the increase that the maintained route will see from next week? In other words will they really be totally new customers, or just transferred customers who are only new to that route because of the demise of their old one?

We will see two sets of figures: the annual report data showing the number of bus journeys per year (128m in 2009) and the QBC monitoring reports showing people per hour on the bus corridors.

The figure that matters is the total number of journeys which I'm sure will be way up (but we won't see until mid 2012).

atlantean

RayM wrote: »

Comparing the new 84 timetable with the old one, I can't really see many positives. Overall, they've made an unattractive service even more unattractive. Quite the achievement. The only improvement is that Newcastle will have an increase of four scheduled off-peak buses (each way) per weekday. The number of buses serving Kilcoole has decreased by four (each way). Hardly the 'improved timetable' as advertised on Dublin Bus' website.

Furthermore, with all 84s now serving Bray Station, Cherrywood Luas and Stillorgan village, it's completely laughable for Dublin Bus to claim that they've made this part of their Network more Direct in any way. Perhaps the inevitable fall-off in passenger numbers will be used as justification for further cuts to the route in the future.
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I have to totally agree to that! There is no way on earth that these changes to the 84 could be called an improvement! It will take longer to get to Belfield from Kilcoole than it did to reach the city centre on the current timetable!

I also note from the "Revised" timetable that the last bus back to Bray will be at 23:30! Where will the one arriving in Newcastle at 00:45 go to? There are a number of people who regularly use the 00:30 from Kilcoole to Bray!

According to the "Revised" timetable the first bus into Kilcoole will not arrive until 08:15 — the first bus use to arrive at 06:25 from Bray — this will affect people wishing to use public transport to get to work in the 3 business/industrial parks in Kilcoole!

I fail to see any justification in terminating the bus at Belfield. Any time I am on it very few get off at Belfield — most continue on into town! Dublin Bus have extended other routes in this revision claiming by doing so it will assist passengers using these routes — how then does shortening the 84 route assist passengers? Having to get two buses to make a journey to the city centre is not a step forward! Having to purchase two tickets to do so is even worse!

Bazzer2

atlantean wrote: »

Having to get two buses to make a journey to the city centre is not a step forward! Having to purchase two tickets to do so is even worse!

As has been mentioned many times on these threads, the Travel 90 ticket allows a passenger to make two trips in succession for less than the price of one.

noelfirl

And as has also been said, the original proposal was to terminate the 84 at Cherrywood Luas, operating at a 30 minute frequency, but thanks to local badgering, it has been crippled. Now there's equal blame to be layed on Dublin Bus' door for being spineless and giving in to those demands, but one thing if for certain is that people in this city are going to have to get used to the idea of having to change mode to get to their final destination and accept that it is uneconomic and inefficient to have a dose of routes coming from miles and miles out all dropping people from their door in the local housing estate to "An Lár". With integrated ticketing (which is a topic in itself for another time, due to the incompetentency of those in the DoT and elsewhere) it should become the norm for people to get a local lower frequency feeder service to a more frequent core bus route and/or a high frequency rail service. Until that happens public transport in the GDA will continue to be messy, indirect, unreliable and unsustainable in terms of trying to get the number of public transport users up from the current 1 in 5.

AlekSmart

Bambi posted....

You don't know where to start? Start with the customer

At the risk of being H,D and Q`d,I beg to differ.
We are paying a phenomenal amount of money to many different Bodies and Individuals who proffess to be expert in their fields and who in return produce a wealth of reports,recommendations and suggestions on how best to be efficient,effective and popular.

Whilst the notion of being Customer Focused is a generally positive one,there are limits to it`s effectiveness in this business.

We can currently see this being acted-out in the street protests regarding the 46A by-passing Monkstown Farm.

Here we have a poorly planned,poorly laid out,location where the largest vehicles in our fleet were routinely mounting the footpath as they attempted to maintain headway through the place.

Sensible safety-orientated traffic management suggestions such as a one-way system were swiftly ridiculed by a cross-section of flat-earthers who consider everything must remain the same in perpetuity,even if its just plain dangerous.

Lets be honest,if we consult a cross section of any group of Bus users,each one will want the Bus to facilitate them as far as possible....that`s a reflection on how we think as a people.

Other countries think,and more importantly,act differently,whereby a location such as Cherrywood Luas would be pounced upon and turned into a fully functioning Public Transport Hub with rapid transfer between LRT and Bus/Coach the order of the day.....Sadly it`s not happening for us.

The reason why a sound new approach to a route such as the 84 has been stillborn is rather unpalatably down to vocal and well connected customers who for their own satisfaction have ensured that the potential of both the route itself and the broader concept of a functional multi-modal interechange will be stillborn.

Atlantean posted.....

There is no way on earth that these changes to the 84 could be called an improvement! It will take longer to get to Belfield from Kilcoole than it did to reach the city centre on the current timetable!

My understanding is the "New-Improved" 84 will be serving Sea Road,Bray Station,Cherrywood Luas and Stillorgan Village all in both directions en route.

With such a serpentine arrangement it`s little wonder there is such a disparity in journey times.

Worse still is the apparent lack of comprehension that high-frequency,direct and reliable routes are popular and remain one of the few Public Transport concepts capable of being marketed at a new users...I cannot see the new Improved 84 appealing to anybody ....

Stevek101

There is talk of an unofficial strike tomorrow over the new 4.

Telchak

Stevek101 wrote: »

There is talk of an unofficial strike tomorrow over the new 4.

By who?

devnull

There has been discontent all week on the 4/a, having got one every day the main problems seem to be:

1) The savage cuts by 30% during the week
2) The huge Saturday and Sunday cuts (Over 50%) to once every half hour on Saturday and once every hour on Sundays.
3) The unrealistic reduction in travel time. now a driver is expected to get from Harristown to Monkstown in 60 minutes, previously 90, despite the fact the route is now longer.
4) Drivers are expected to operate a return journey 60 minutes after their journey in the other direction begins
5) The withdrawal of high capacity articulated buses.

Whilst I never like to see strike, the facts are, as has been discussed in this thread previously, what they have done to the 4 is nothing short of scandalous, and the new timetable will result in frequently overcrowded or full buses, and the travel time is too low that it will likely cause the service to also come unreliable.

Stevek101

Telchak wrote: »

By who?

The drivers of course. I haven't heard of the walk out so it must of been dealt with. There is huge discontent among drivers of the run/break times of the new routes.

Sulmac

So are these Dublin Bus' idea of "improved" timetables?

On a route as long as the new 46A (it must be around 15km long), they have departure times from just four stops (Phoenix Park - D'Olier Street - UCD Belfield - Dún Laoghaire).

They're just as vague as the old ones, with "every X minutes".

I suppose I was being too optimistic when I thought they'd be redesigned into something useful like these bus timetables from Reykjavík (granted a much smaller city than Dublin, but with understandable bus timetables and maps).

xper

Sulmac wrote: »

They're just as vague as the old ones, with "every X minutes".

I think "every x minutes" is fine if 'x' is less than 10 as the margin of error, especially with DB's highly variable idle time at stops due their single-door, multiple cash fares policy. However, "every 15" or "every 20mins" is just a "stand there and stop annoying us" middle finger to the customers.

As someone pointed out elsewhere, modern information technology (This is an area I know something about!) makes the provision of custom timetables for all en-route stops (or at least stages) very feasible and cost effective. Off the top of my head, I could envisage a web version that would display the times for the departing terminus by default but with a list of stops that the user can click on/select and the timetable updates with the times for that stop. The same process can produce individual printed timetables for display at individual stops. This is fairly easy to do technology wise. But if there is no will or imagination on the part of the management responsible ...

EDIT: Its worth remarking that there are a number of third-party iPhone/mobile apps that attempt to do some or all of this but must, by virtue of the fact that they are third-parties, apply some guess work which reduces their reliablility.
Question: Where the hell is the OFFICIAL Dublin Bus iphone app? BUSTXT alone does not cut it in 2010.


Realtime displays will, when delivered, mitigate some of this but that shouldn't be an excuse not to improve the timetable information.

thomasj

Bazzer2 wrote: »

As has been mentioned many times on these threads, the Travel 90 ticket allows a passenger to make two trips in succession for less than the price of one.

Actually more than two if within the 90 minutes it would seem

Dublin bus website

10 Journey Travel 90 Adult €18.50

Valid for 10 journeys of 90 minutes unlimited travel

AlekSmart

Actually more than two if within the 90 minutes it would seem

A very important point Thomasj,the number of journeys made within each 90 minute validation period is unlimited.

That is highly relevant to the scenario of multiple transfers which appears to be looming ahead.

lucernarian

Could someone explain where all this talk of changes to the 4/a is coming from? I've seen no thread, news article or Dublin Bus press release dealing with it.

Cookie_Monster

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Could someone explain where all this talk of changes to the 4/a is coming from? I've seen no thread, news article or Dublin Bus press release dealing with it.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/4-Revised-Times/

seriously, did you even look? it's the second result when you use search by route number on the site

devnull

To be fair though Cookie_Monster, they have tried to hide all news of the cutbacks of the 4 in the posters I have seen, and have just simply gone on about the extension to try and take the focus off the disgraceful cuts.

Would be interested to see what things are like tomorrow in city centre southbound from about 7.30 to 8.30am., and how it effects things.

markpb

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Could someone explain where all this talk of changes to the 4/a is coming from? I've seen no thread, news article or Dublin Bus press release dealing with it.

Their ***** basically. They said there might be some small changes to the souther terminus of the 4 during the public consultation but didn't make a big deal about it.

lucernarian

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/4-Revised-Times/

seriously, did you even look? it's the second result when you use search by route number on the site

Wow, who pissed in your cornflakes this morning?

I checked this page on the dublin bus website:http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/News-Centre/Travel-News/

As it has "travel news" in the webpage address, I reasonably came to the conclusion that the news was not on that website yet. There is no mention of 4 changes, and in the case of other Dublin Bus changes they seem to have listed at least diversions and route changes, and the Network Review on that page.

Thanks for the link, but perhaps without the attitude:rolleyes:

Cookie_Monster

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Wow, who pissed in your cornflakes this morning?

I checked this page on the dublin bus website:http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/News-Centre/Travel-News/

As it has "travel news" in the webpage address, I reasonably came to the conclusion that the news was not on that website yet. There is no mention of 4 changes, and in the case of other Dublin Bus changes they seem to have listed at least diversions and route changes, and the Network Review on that page.

Thanks for the result, but perhaps without the attitude:rolleyes:

nobody "pissed in my cornflakes", anyway I had left over pizza for breakfast

patrickbrophy18

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

nobody "pissed in my cornflakes", anyway I had left over pizza for breakfast

Sounds delicious.:D

krattapopov

So the 47 is operating the new timetable this morning, every 30 mins in the morning as opposed to every 15 minutes, with the route running into the city centre.

They are going to have to put a few more buses on if you ask me, it was jammers this morning. There was a dublin bus official it seemed recording the number of passengers getting on so hopefully a couple more buses will be thrown on at peak times.

devnull

Where was it gathering lots of passengers and which direction was this?

krattapopov

Heading from Belarmine to town, 7.20 bus. All the seats on the bottom were gone from the second stop and half the ones on the top, and I'd say not all the people who regularly get it knew about the time changes. The old timetables are still up on the stops.

Cookie_Monster

krattapopov wrote: »

The old timetables are still up on the stops.

:rolleyes:

well done DB. FFS how hard can it be to organise to getting feckin timetables replaced on the small number of affected routes :rolleyes:

noelfirl

Couldn't help but notice the following on the N11 corridor this morning from D'Olier to UCD:

- I'm not joking when I say that about 12-14 46a's passed us on the way into town in the space of about a 20-25 minute interval. Most of them displayed "Phoenix Park" but at least three displayed "Mountjoy Square" and one displayed "Westmoreland Street". They were still bunching together in twos or threes, but I guess that's hard to avoid when there's so friggin many of them.

- One 46c passed us, by the looks of it an Xpresso from Belfield returning to the garage, but all the same being as that route now no longer exists, it would probably be better displayed as a truncated 46a to Parnell Square.

- Speaking of routes that no longer exist, two 746s passed us heading into town :rolleyes: