Dublin Bus Network Review

markpb

17a timetables still haven't been replaced two weeks after the route was altered. Large stretches of the Swords road corridor have been waiting two months for new timetables. This is a monumental cock-up. Emails to DB have gone un-answered.

Also, I love how the city recently spent a small fortune (and two years) widening a road, moving utilities and building expensive bus shelters with kassel kerbing and then DB have decided not to use half of it for the 17a, instead favouring a road with on-street parking, speed ramps, poor access to bus stops and 90 degree bends. And now they're proposing pulling the 27B off it to so most of the bus lane will go completely unused. What a waste of money.

AlekSmart

I am fully aware of the circumstances in which the changes with the 14, 14a and 48a in Ballinteer and Dundrum took place, but frankly it is a disgrace that this has been left sit as they are so long. These routes have far too long running times in the evenings and at weekends with the result that buses and drivers are laying over for long periods of time when they could be used far more productively.

All well and good KC61,but in the present context of the survival of a Public Bus Service in Dublin its a sideshow.water under the bridge.

The entire Dundrum situation was the subject of rushed and flawed planning (Familiar ring to this ?) and the final outcome bore absolutely no resemblance to any realistic assessment of the situation.

By the time of implimentation,almost every public representative or body had been given free rein to push their particular view,some with greater success than others.

It`s fair to say that Dundrum represented a very great failure (More Familiarity)to grasp an opportunity offered by the Luas Green Line startup.

However,a complete and total lack of policy direction from the TOP resulted in an unfocused illogical "Fire Brigade" managerial approach to what could have been a nice little earner for the Company.

No private company would have allowed these sort of inefficiencies to persist for over 18 months.

I disagree here,as the interference from above would result in the Private Operator simply operating whatever service level they were Paid for just as Dublin Bus do at present.

The National Transport Authority`s remit is expected to end this situation,however the proof of this has yet to be actually seen on the ground.

The entire thrust of Deloitte was supposed to be about efficiency and maximizing Dublin Bus`s ability to achieve this.

The somewhat chaotic situation we are now dealing with is the direct result of a very poor corporate understanding of what Deloitte was/is about.

This has resulted in what should be a positive and forward looking excercise being reduced to a plan now regarded as failed and unrepresentative of what the Customer actually requires.

Over the years,Management/Staff relations has sometimes been fraught,but,Dublin Bus has always had a better Industrial Relations environment than it`s CIE predecessor.

What is perplexing in this case however,is an almost total disregard for the negative feedback which has been flowing into the company`s Customer Service department from Day 1 of ND.

It is instructive that here on Boards, in a huge thread of over 1,800 contributions we,as yet,have little evidence of the ND Phase 1 changes actually achieving their desired result from a Customer perspective...surely that should be causing eyebrows to raise even a tad ?

The very obvious loss of customer confidence and goodwill en masse is not something my Senior Management should feel blasé about,but from earlier posts it appears the ND "Team" regard it as collateral damage which cannot interfere with the onward march of the Plan.

At this stage,collectively we can only sit and await the results of whatever "review" is undertaken next month and hope for the best.

A Plan of Network Direct`s complexity and scale really did deserve a far wider input from the greater Dublin City Administrative field rather than the somewhat disinterested regard we are used to...but thats all a dream right now !

Dub13

markpb wrote: »

. Large stretches of the Swords road corridor have been waiting two months for new timetables. This is a monumental cock-up. Emails to DB have gone un-answered.

What has happened on the Swords road corridor...?I have not noticed any changes apart from the 746 but could you justify changing the timetables on the Swords road corridor for the cancellation of one low frequency route.

AlekSmart

I posted....

A Plan of Network Direct`s complexity and scale really did deserve a far wider input from the greater Dublin City Administrative field rather than the somewhat disinterested regard we are used to...but thats all a dream right now !

And,as if by magic,along comes Markpb to illustrate my point !!

Also, I love how the city recently spent a small fortune (and two years) widening a road, moving utilities and building expensive bus shelters with kassel kerbing and then DB have decided not to use half of it for the 17a, instead favouring a road with on-street parking, speed ramps, poor access to bus stops and 90 degree bends. And now they're proposing pulling the 27B off it to so most of the bus lane will go completely unused. What a waste of money.

markpb

Dub13 wrote: »

What has happened on the Swords road corridor...?I have not noticed any changes apart from the 746 but could you justify changing the timetables on the Swords road corridor for the cancellation of one low frequency route.

The only change was the cancellation of the 746 so it's timetable needed to be removed from bus stops. At the airport, they covered the 746 timetable with a sheet of paper and left the rest intact. At almost all the other bus stops they removed all the timetables leaving nothing or they removed them and replaced them with a poster describing the N11 changes with a small note that the 746 was cancelled.

It's been two months and they haven't bothered. I posted here in July that I hoped DB would take their time, plan it carefully and do it properly but that I didn't expect them to. Sadly, I was proven right. Every time they undertake a plan of some sort, they show just how monumentally useless they are.

KC61

AlekSmart wrote: »

All well and good KC61,but in the present context of the survival of a Public Bus Service in Dublin its a sideshow.water under the bridge.

The entire Dundrum situation was the subject of rushed and flawed planning (Familiar ring to this ?) and the final outcome bore absolutely no resemblance to any realistic assessment of the situation.

By the time of implimentation,almost every public representative or body had been given free rein to push their particular view,some with greater success than others.

It`s fair to say that Dundrum represented a very great failure (More Familiarity)to grasp an opportunity offered by the Luas Green Line startup.

However,a complete and total lack of policy direction from the TOP resulted in an unfocused illogical "Fire Brigade" managerial approach to what could have been a nice little earner for the Company.



I disagree here,as the interference from above would result in the Private Operator simply operating whatever service level they were Paid for just as Dublin Bus do at present.

The National Transport Authority`s remit is expected to end this situation,however the proof of this has yet to be actually seen on the ground.

The entire thrust of Deloitte was supposed to be about efficiency and maximizing Dublin Bus`s ability to achieve this.

The somewhat chaotic situation we are now dealing with is the direct result of a very poor corporate understanding of what Deloitte was/is about.

This has resulted in what should be a positive and forward looking excercise being reduced to a plan now regarded as failed and unrepresentative of what the Customer actually requires.

Over the years,Management/Staff relations has sometimes been fraught,but,Dublin Bus has always had a better Industrial Relations environment than it`s CIE predecessor.

What is perplexing in this case however,is an almost total disregard for the negative feedback which has been flowing into the company`s Customer Service department from Day 1 of ND.

It is instructive that here on Boards, in a huge thread of over 1,800 contributions we,as yet,have little evidence of the ND Phase 1 changes actually achieving their desired result from a Customer perspective...surely that should be causing eyebrows to raise even a tad ?

The very obvious loss of customer confidence and goodwill en masse is not something my Senior Management should feel blasé about,but from earlier posts it appears the ND "Team" regard it as collateral damage which cannot interfere with the onward march of the Plan.

At this stage,collectively we can only sit and await the results of whatever "review" is undertaken next month and hope for the best.

A Plan of Network Direct`s complexity and scale really did deserve a far wider input from the greater Dublin City Administrative field rather than the somewhat disinterested regard we are used to...but thats all a dream right now !

Alek I was making the comment regarding addressing inefficiencies from any private company's perspective irrespective of what industry they are in and not just public transport. The days of running businesses and not addressing inefficiencies are gone - the nonsense that happened with regard to the 14, 14a and 48a should have been reviewed asap. But no it wasn't and it is still going on.

As for wastes of public money - have a look at Upper Rathmines Road where two bus stops are within 50 yards of one another either side of the junction with Church Avenue and both have now got kessel kerbing. One stop was installed purely to cover the 14a services that operated via Palmerston Road. It should have been removed once those services ceased. But no. And now God knows how many thousands of EURO have been wasted on converting a completely unnecessary bus stop.

stop

KC61 wrote: »

As for wastes of public money - have a look at Upper Rathmines Road where two bus stops are within 50 yards of one another either side of the junction with Church Avenue and both have now got kessel kerbing. One stop was installed purely to cover the 14a services that operated via Palmerston Road. It should have been removed once those services ceased. But no. And now God knows how many thousands of EURO have been wasted on converting a completely unnecessary bus stop.

Or other locations which got Kerbing but have marked parking bays at the stop - whats the point? Utter waste by DCC

dirtynosebeps

KC61 wrote: »

The problem now is that (from where I sit) on both the N11 and N3 they have cut the resources too much (in terms of running time), and that is having a seriously negative impact on reliability. At the same time they are still not in certain cases maximising internal efficiencies.

There is a balance to be struck and to my mind it is still some way off.

i couldn't agree with you more kc, lets all remmeber that the changes in so far are only the start of whats to come.theres already been a huge **** up with the changes so far, lets hope dublin bus management learn from their mistakes on the changes already made.

Gamesnash.ie: Pat

Well I had occasion to take a return bus trip to the city centre today from Blanchardstown. I became an uncle this morning and was heading for Holles St. I haven't been on a revamped 39 / 39a since the changeover nor did I know what route they took but I knew they had changed to cross into the southside Baggot St area figured I'd see how things went. Here's my experience.

Arrived at bus stop in Blanch centre. 39 arrives fairly stuffed. I knew that one of the changes to the 39 route was that one of them (39 or 39a bypassed the village and the other one didn't) The 39 bus in front of me says via Blanch Village on the route so I decided grand I'd wait for a 39a which must be the one bypassing the village. Another 39 pulls in practically empty followed by a third 39. Was about to give up on the 39a but then spotted one just behind it. Loads of questions to the driver about whether or not he would stop in Blanch village which he very politely answered no to and off we went. Whilst getting on myself the radio controller is asking him exactly where he was. Trip went well but for some reason we caught up with a 39A in front of us and all the passengers got off it and got on ours near Hanlons Corner. That bus goes out of service. Got off the bus at Baggot St a few min walk from the hospital in 30 min. Very happy.

The trip back though inspires the post here I was heading for Coolmine Ind Estate and therefore required a 39 back via Blanch Village. I head for Baggot St and just as I get to the stop a bus pulls in with 39 on it via navan road bypass or similar. I was a bit confused as to how it still went along the bypass and the village too but hey not knowing the exact route I get on as do many other passengers along the way until we get half way down the quays and a lady gets on paying cash and asks the driver for a ticket to Blanch village. He says this bus isn't going to Blanch village. She says but I though the 39 went to the village and he informs her he is a 39a. She correctly informs him that he is displaying a 39. He says but it says via the bypass not the village. At this point the driver starts turning the engine on and off trying to change what was displayed and asking the passengers at the bus stop what does it now display. (I'm presuming here that the displays can't be changed whilst the engine is running ??) He got on the radio and talked to the base and I heard him say he had displayed as a 39 and what should he do (did not hear reply)

Next thing though is he tells the lady that she would have to wait for a 39 as he wasn't going to Blanch Village. Cue a lot of Blanch village passengers standing up asking whats going on. Driver insists he's a 39A and people are on the wrong bus. He was literally repeating over and over again "What do you want from me - This is a 39a"

Another 39a pulls in behind us and driver says to go get on that bus - in the confusion most of the bus got off, the "39" passengers thinking there was a 39 behind them to get on when in fact it was another 39a, and a lot of 39a passengers assuming the bus was broken down due to the several on and offs of the engine. The second bus driver loses the rag trying to explain to the herd of passengers that he is not going to Blanch Village either and actually shuts the doors in peoples faces and pulls out refusing to acknowledge anyone else. The majority of passengers having just gotten off what they thought was a broken down bus then run back to it where first driver is trying to take off himself - he eventually lets them back on leaving a group behind who are wating for a 39.

As earlier whilst waiting but with the routes the other way round another 39a passes before a 39 arrives correctly displaying the village etc. This driver though doesn't have a clue about what has happened ahead of him and is trying to charge everyone again. After a couple of minutes trying to explain he eventually tells everyone to get on and mutters away to himself whilst we get on - presumably about the state of the network.

Just seems to be so much confusion out there. Considering there were 39a's bunched up behind us on the way back I'd have to ask why not let the driver run the 39 route back and save all the hassle. (Granted he would have been a few min later to the terminus in Ongar but that could have been sorted) Also on the way in 3 x 39s pulled in before a 39a arrived when the 39a is meant to be the far more frequent service. I have a feeling one of those 39's was actually a 39a too.

Passengers don't know what's going on, drivers seem equally perplexed at times. It's chaotic to say the least.

starviewadams

Was talking to a 51c driver today because I had heard rumours about the switch to the terminus from Aston Quay up to Hawkins Street was only a temporary measure,and he said that the 51's will probably be merging with the 13's in the new year to make a new cross city route.Anybody here heard anything about this?

KC61

KC61 wrote: »

As for wastes of public money - have a look at Upper Rathmines Road where two bus stops are within 50 yards of one another either side of the junction with Church Avenue and both have now got kessel kerbing. One stop was installed purely to cover the 14a services that operated via Palmerston Road. It should have been removed once those services ceased. But no. And now God knows how many thousands of EURO have been wasted on converting a completely unnecessary bus stop.

This has happened in Marino too, the 123 no longer serves the estates on the return leg, rather it goes all the way up Philipsburgh Avenue. But there's one or two stops there which had been upgraded to kessel kerbing and now aren't in use.

KC61

starviewadams wrote: »

Was talking to a 51c driver today because I had heard rumours about the switch to the terminus from Aston Quay up to Hawkins Street was only a temporary measure,and he said that the 51's will probably be merging with the 13's in the new year to make a new cross city route.Anybody here heard anything about this?

That was indeed one of the route mergers that I heard planned some time back.

There are still a lot of changes to take place but I suspect that the next phase (excluding the 40/78a and 79/27b) will be in 2011.

devnull

The 4/7 Corridor has hit an all time low yesterday afternoon and this morning, I've stood there watching several buses go past full for yesterday evening and this morning with seemingly no articulated buses in, has made the route a nightmare.

It has been hard to get on a bus even with the artics since the timetable cuts since it has been extended to Monkstown, but last night and this morning, the further cuts imposed by buses that hold less people, have made it a complete nightmare, and city centre heading southbound in the morning and the opposite in the evening is ridiculous.

Unless they bring the artics back, or increase the frequency on the corridor, I will be going back to a car very soon, some of my colleagues have already done so, it will be Dublin Bus' loss, they simply won't listen to any negative feedback, and dismiss anything that the people who use the route say.

Dublin bus complains it does not have enough passengers and they are dropping, that is hardly surprising when they continue to bury their head in sand and dismiss what their customers are telling them, as they are always right, and their customers are always wrong.

Unfortunately I think the only way of changing this regime who have failed time after time, is a complete management reshuffle and new heads and new ideas, the current guys mostly have been in the company for many years, the only way to turn it around is fresh people and fresh ideas, rather than the same old tired mistakes time after time.

AlekSmart

Unfortunately I think the only way of changing this regime who have failed time after time, is a complete management reshuffle and new heads and new ideas, the current guys mostly have been in the company for many years, the only way to turn it around is fresh people and fresh ideas, rather than the same old tired mistakes time after time.

Devnull,this is not strictly true as some of the Network Direct Office principals,whilst Senior Management,would have somewhat limited operational,customer facing,experience.

I would not wish to get drawn into personalization of the issues,as I believe it is a Corporate and Regulatory View which has lost it`s focus,but which with concentrated and effective targeting can be saved.

It should be borne in mind that the introduction of highly successful Routes such as the 4,123,128,140,145 was overseen by Senior Managers (Now largely Retired) of greater seniority than any of the Network Direct team.

What is difficult for me,as a footsoldier,to comprehend is why the present team are targeting these Successful routes and largely nullifying that success ? ....I cannot comprehend the reasoning behind that.

devnull

It's just the impression I got - I apologize if it's not the case, however I just get the impression that we're seeing the same mistakes over and over again of recent years, when the current situation, and the network review, was a great chance to put some of the historically biggest problems right, but unfortunately we have seen the same issues that we've had in the past with this project, such as poor information provision, and customer information, along with some new ones.

It just gives me the overall impression that there is no customer focus upon management, and more that they assess internally how things are going, and that is the deciding factor, rather than any feedback the customer provides, I like many others in these threads, have had a lot of my criticism dismissed as being not relevant, the mentality it seems to give the impression of, is we're right, you're wrong.

Goonerette

devnull wrote: »

Unless they bring the artics back, or increase the frequency on the corridor, I will be going back to a car very soon, some of my colleagues have already done so, it will be Dublin Bus' loss, they simply won't listen to any negative feedback, and dismiss anything that the people who use the route say.

I switched to the DART + Luas when Network They Wrecked came into effect after a couple of weeks of futile attempts to get the 'New and Improved' 4 and the ever-elusive new 145 to Heuston. Even though it takes me slightly longer to get to and especially from work than it used to on the old 7/4/4A + 25A/66/etc., not to mention the added cost, I just can't depend on such an unreliable service where you could be inexplicably stuck waiting for the bus for 40 minutes and coming into work savagely late. I am lucky in that I have the luxury of using alternative modes of public transport. Most of the city is only served by DB. I pity those people who have no other choice. :mad:

dub_commuter

But at the end of the day, CIE are in a very good position, as because of the fact the vast majority of this city have to use them in some way, what does it matter if you stop using the bus, and use the DART? at the end of the day they get the money from you one way or another so why would they care? They would only care if the business went elsewhere.

Even better if you used to use two buses and now use one bus and the DART, they now make more money from you, as the cost for a ticket for dart and bus, as opposed to just bus will be a lot more. You read these threads and find the routes worst effected are the 145, 46A, and 4 to/from the southside with the northside legs not being quite so bad.

Then you look at the areas the 4/46A/145 serve which are regarded as the worst effected. from city centre heading south. Yes, a lot of their major areas, are also served by the dart.

SickCert

Goonerette wrote: »

I switched to the DART + Luas when Network They Wrecked came into effect after a couple of weeks of futile attempts to get the 'New and Improved' 4 and the ever-elusive new 145 to Heuston. Even though it takes me slightly longer to get to and especially from work than it used to on the old 7/4/4A + 25A/66/etc., not to mention the added cost, I just can't depend on such an unreliable service where you could be inexplicably stuck waiting for the bus for 40 minutes and coming into work savagely late. I am lucky in that I have the luxury of using alternative modes of public transport. Most of the city is only served by DB. I pity those people who have no other choice. :mad:

Its taken some time but many travellers are starting to take alternatives to the 'Can i get home gamble'. My neighbour is now a Glendalough bus user and others i know make the trek to Beyond thunderdome for the Luas.

AlekSmart

Then you look at the areas the 4/46A/145 serve which are regarded as the worst effected. from city centre heading south. Yes, a lot of their major areas, are also served by the dart.

Indeed Dub_Commuter,which is why the next group of routes,The Lucan Corridor is of particular interest.

This corridor,which has occupied such a centre-stage in Irish Public Transport competition terms will now be treated to the Network Direct "enhancements".

If the lessons of Phase 1 have not been learned and the fundamental issues not addressed then The Lucan Corridor is where it could be Game-Over for Dublin Bus as we know it.

Personally,having regard to the ongoing problems with Phase 1 I would not go anywhere near the Lucan routes until I had recieved a full post-mortem report on Phase 1`s all too obvious demise.

Mistakes,even major one`s,are survivable only IF they result in a learning process with an end-result of understanding....I am not certain we are in that place yet.

CIE

I keep getting a headache looking at DB's web site. Do I have it right that the 66 will no longer serve Kilcock? Anyone heading to that town has to use Bus Eireann or the train after 20/11/10?

Xylophonic

CIE wrote: »

I keep getting a headache looking at DB's web site. Do I have it right that the 66 will no longer serve Kilcock? Anyone heading to that town has to use Bus Eireann or the train after 20/11/10?

That's right.

med1

KC61 wrote: »

That was indeed one of the route mergers that I heard planned some time back.

There are still a lot of changes to take place but I suspect that the next phase (excluding the 40/78a and 79/27b) will be in 2011.

donal keating has stated that the 40 78a change will not happen till 2011 now due to massive public objection in finglas to non service of most of the area by new route

med1

in relation to comments made as to why network direct is messing up succesfull routes its an obvious answer,dublin bus is been prepared to be privitised,they did the same with bus eireann started cutting back on routes saying they werent viable then suddenly a private operator takes on a similar route and makes it profitable.
remember as a semi state dublin bus costs taxpayers money whereas a private costs a lot less so i reckon this is what is happening

robd

My wife had the misfortune of being without a car for a couple of weeks recently. Dropped her to the 17a to get bus to Finglas. What a disaster of a new route. This was the only good cross city bus service in it's day. As part of the Network Review, which is supposed to remove the weird loops off main roads, some genius decided to run the bus through Beaumont Hospital, skipping the lucrative Northside Shopping Centre stop and adding 10 mins to journey. And it broke down on the way out so she jumped a taxi.

Reminds me of the disaster that was the old 103 along Collins Ave.

She rented a car for the rest of the week the next day and bought a new car within a week.

Own goal for Dublin Bus IMO.

Bazzer2

robd wrote: »

Own goal for Dublin Bus IMO.

Repeated hundreds of times over, I would say, since Network They-Wrecked started.

Tickityboo

med1 wrote: »

in relation to comments made as to why network direct is messing up succesfull routes its an obvious answer,dublin bus is been prepared to be privitised,they did the same with bus eireann started cutting back on routes saying they werent viable then suddenly a private operator takes on a similar route and makes it profitable.
remember as a semi state dublin bus costs taxpayers money whereas a private costs a lot less so i reckon this is what is happening

Once Fine Gael get in they'll drop Dublin Bus like a hot potatoe anyway!!

beatrice33

This is the reply I got from Dublin Bus, on Spetember the 17th after I complained about route 45 taking shortcuts in Bray and missing a few stops doing so.

I wish to acknowledge and thank you for email. I have logged this onto our customer feedback database and forwarded it to the Operations Manager in Donnybrook Depot. He is responsible for this service.

He has assured me that he will speak to all the drivers on this route at the earliest convenience and that he will have his chief Inspector monitor the route to ensure that the drivers on this route are not taking shortcuts.

In regards the digital display at bus stops, this will be rolled out across the city towards the end of the year.

On behalf of Dublin Bus please accept my apologies for the inconvenience caused to you and thank you for bringing this matter to our attention.

Kind Regards
Jean Keating
Public Affairs
Central Control
Dublin Bus

"As part of the continuing monitoring by Dublin Bus of how complaints are being dealt with under its Customer Charter and of customer's levels of satisfaction with the way such complaints are being dealt with, you may be contacted at a later date, to obtain your views on how you considered your complaint was dealt with by Dublin Bus."

This morning, again, the bus took the shortcut, left me standing like a fecking eejit at the bus stop in the rain. Arrived late to work. Happy morning:mad:

Tickityboo

beatrice33 wrote: »

This is the reply I got from Dublin Bus, on Spetember the 17th after I complained about route 45 taking shortcuts in Bray and missing a few stops doing so.

This morning, again, the bus took the shortcut, left me standing like a fecking eejit at the bus stop in the rain. Arrived late to work. Happy morning:mad:

What short cut?

Dub13

med1 wrote: »

in relation to comments made as to why network direct is messing up succesfull routes its an obvious answer,dublin bus is been prepared to be privitised,they did the same with bus eireann started cutting back on routes saying they werent viable then suddenly a private operator takes on a similar route and makes it profitable.
remember as a semi state dublin bus costs taxpayers money whereas a private costs a lot less so i reckon this is what is happening

Is there cash to be made from privatization...?I don't know how true it is but I hear Aircoach is making a big loss,now if you cant make cash running a couple of small routes at 8 euro a pop what hope have you of making cash on other routes..?

Tickityboo wrote: »

Once Fine Gael get in they'll drop Dublin Bus like a hot potatoe anyway!!

But and this is a wider problem in the Irish political system would labour stand for it..?

beatrice33

Tickityboo wrote: »

What short cut?

The 45 starts in Oldcourt Drive in Bray, drives along the boghall Rd and turns into the Vevay Road. When the bus takes the "shot cut" it turns into the Wolf Tone estate in the middle of the boghall road, so it skips half of the Boghall Rd, and the beginning of the Vevay rd, in total, about 5 o 6 stops.