Dublin Bus Network Review

jack presley

KD345 wrote: »

Yes, I believe some of the route changes have worked, and with some tweaking to the running time of the 38,39,39a etc. (which is happening) and more attention to the 46a and 145, then they could work too.

Armanijeans hit the nail on the head on the previous page as to why the 38 doesn't work and I can't see how tweaking of the running teams is going to change that. The problems will still remain. It's pot luck as to when a bus arrives

Aard

jack presley wrote: »

.....and there'll be integrated ticketing in 2007.

It's not like IT: those electronic timetables are already set up in places.

Devilman40k

I personally don't think the proposed changes to the 18 qualify as an enhancement...if anything they will make it a very unreliable service. I do not know about the 17/75 changes so I cannot comment

jack presley

The biggest mistake Dublin Bus made was their decision to market the taking 25% of their buses off the road as an 'improvement'

med1

jack presley wrote: »

The biggest mistake Dublin Bus made was their decision to market the taking 25% of their buses off the road as an 'improvement'

the changes so far have got to have reduced a lot of buses by amalgamating the 39 46a and 10 together they effectivley took off all the buses that would have ran on one of the routes
the new 40 78a will have the same effect currently both servies run between 7 mins peak to 15 off peak and are turning combined into 10 peak 20 off peak so virtually one routes buses wont be required anymore

AlekSmart

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Cross city routes are an absolute disaster, possibly the worst decision DB have made. And as I said in an earlier post I live in Mulhuddart and work in Leeson St so in theory the change to cross-city of the 38A was aimed at the likes of me. But its a shambles. The extra couple of miles of the route is making a timetable impossible for the controllers/drivers to follow.

For 3 years I walked (or latterly Dublin biked) into O'Connell St for 6.40 in the evening and the scheduled 6.40 38A would turn up 3 minutes later. Like clockwork, it was fantastic.

Going cross city has destroyed that. Baggot Street to O'Connell Bridge is scheduled for 12 minutes. AlekSmart will know better than me how realistic that is, but my guess would be 5% of buses manage that trip in 12 minutes and that dependent on weather/traffic that journey could occasionally take 40/50 minutes. So it is impossible to timetable that route.

So now I just have the misery of turning up at the bustop in the freezing cold without an iota of an idea of when a bus is due or whether I've just missed one.

This is eaxctly the sort of stuff which Mssrs Deloitte needed to have fully explored before completing and issuing their report to The Minister for Transport.

Here we have a (satisfied) 38 route customer of 3 years standing,one of the large number of silent reliable customers who have been effectively cast aside in some Holy-Grail like quest for "Efficiency".

Network Direct,as currently devised,has alienated and antagonized this group of customers,and if not revisited,risks us losing a substantial number of them for good.

KD345 posted....Yes, I believe some of the route changes have worked, and with some tweaking to the running time of the 38,39,39a etc. (which is happening) and more attention to the 46a and 145, then they could work too.

The route changes were never made because people in Dun Laoghaire want to travel to Dublin Zoo, or because those in Kilmacanogue want to go to Heuston, it's about looking at the route in whole and at various points along the way. The 145 is very popular from Heuston and now gives a proper cross city service from one of the busiest railway stations in the country. Much better than the 90/91/92 ever was. I also now see passengers queuing for Blanchardstown buses on Leeson Street, Dawson Street and Suffolk Street, so the service is obviously of use to these passengers.

My arguement to counter KD345`s positive aspect to ND is based upon Phase 1`s changes being rushed into service on Sept 17th against the considered reasoning of almost every participant in the negotiations save for a few senior management types.

From the get-go Phase 1 represented a textbook example of how NOT to devise and impliment such a plan.

Yet today,almost 4 Months later we are still talking of "Tweaks" and "More Attention"as being a way to silkpurse a sows ear.

There were/are fundamental flaws associated with Phase 1 of ND and as yet we see no sign of these being recognized let alone addressed.

Of course the 145 will be popular at Heuston,given that it terminates outside the front door with at least some of the "popularity" being due to a rather lesser service than the 8 minute goal of ND.

As for the 145 offering a "proper" cross-city service,I would quibble with the term "proper" especially if it comes at the expense of Kilmac bound passengers unable to board at D`Olier St due to the bus being full of passengers bound for Nassau/Leeson Streets.

The Nature of the Railhead based service demands a far more flexible service than a long-haul trunk route can offer.

I still feel that improving and extending the 91/92 to UCD Belfield offers far more flexibility and opportunity than merging with the 145.


I too see the Blanchardstown Bound passengers queuing along Leeson Street,Dawson Street and Suffolk Street,but I also have the opportunity to engage with many of them as they enquire as to the location of "their" bus,a process which usually reveals they have been waiting Far longer than their promised 8-10 Minutes......unfortunately this happens every day now and perhaps unsurprisingly will surely feed through to the ridership stats very soon.

The new RTPI will highlight just how much of a problem this is.

KD345 is quite correct here,for sure.

The reality of 45 minute gaps on promised 10 min frequency routes suddenly being visible to all on dayglo yellow LED displays will,I suspect,only serve to pile even more pressure on the current interpretation of the Deloitte Report`s recommendations.

Jack Presley posted.....The biggest mistake Dublin Bus made was their decision to market the taking 25% of their buses off the road as an 'improvement'

This sentiment echoes Fintain O Toole`s question in an article written just before Phase 1 began in which he asked for how much longer can Dublin Bus manage to get away with saying Less is actually More....a question which remains hanging in the air ...

SparkyTech

Users of the 20b/14 will be delighted at the reduction of service to 30 mins off peak as defined by the estimate on DB's website. Currently both run at 15/20 mins intervals during day, how is this improving either route?

Corruptedmorals

CIE wrote: »

All I've seen is degradation of bus times thanks to timetable padding, as referenced above. When I used to ride the 66, it took 55 minutes from Maynooth to city centre; now it's over 90 minutes..

Not unless it's stuck in some serious traffic. The ones around half 8/9 in the morning are awful and will take about an hour 20 mins total from maynooth. However 'normal' running time is well under that, still 40 minutes from leixlip which is always has been. The lack of any 66X after 8:05 has a massive impact, literally there are no busses that will get you in FOR 10. Disgrace. I'm finding that busses are slightly slower these days but I don't think 90 minutes occurs too often durig the day. They're much faster in the evening commute than the morning too.

I like the Pearse Street stop, not too much traffic there. I think they were a bit stuck for ideas after middle abbey street went as a terminus.

AlekSmart

like the Pearse Street stop, not too much traffic there. I think they were a bit stuck for ideas after middle abbey street went as a terminus.
Corruptedmorals

Hmmm I would have expected Mssrs Deloitte to have been just bursting with idea`s such as required here ?

I would have thought that exploring the link provided by Jervis Street from the North Quay`s all the way up to Parnell St/Bolton Street would have been a worthwhile exercise ?

There is currently quite a deal of kerbside space around the Parnell Cinema`s which could,with a bit of application,be a worthwhile terminus.

The Jervis Street routing is a viable Bus Priority link but subject to a serious reduction in on-street car parking.

It also opens an alternative Public Transport Route Option to the Henry St/Mary St shopping areas......:eek:

CIE

Corruptedmorals wrote: »

Not unless it's stuck in some serious traffic. The ones around half 8/9 in the morning are awful and will take about an hour 20 mins total from maynooth. However 'normal' running time is well under that, still 40 minutes from leixlip which is always has been. The lack of any 66X after 8:05 has a massive impact, literally there are no busses that will get you in FOR 10. Disgrace. I'm finding that busses are slightly slower these days but I don't think 90 minutes occurs too often durig the day. They're much faster in the evening commute than the morning too

Must be a lot less travel during off-peak times if the buses are running faster again. And I agree that having no 66X after 8:05 makes no sense; frankly, I'm left wondering why the 25B is the only "regular" service along the Lucan Road corridor that bypasses Chapelizod and not the buses from further out than Adamstown.

Corruptedmorals wrote: »

I like the Pearse Street stop, not too much traffic there. I think they were a bit stuck for ideas after middle abbey street went as a terminus.

Being "stuck for ideas" seems like the norm nowadays. Surface running of trams in the city centre is enough of a disaster.

And one of the things that building the Luas alignment parallel to Hammond Lane proves is that the wherewithal existed, back when the north quays were routed in a westerly direction prior to building Sherwin Bridge, to build connecting streets between Benburb Street and Chancery Street; it would have been very useful to drive through to Middle Abbey Street instead of having to cross Mellowes Bridge onto the south quays...not saying that Sherwin Bridge wasn't needed for other purposes such as eliminating the two-way bottleneck on Victoria Quay where you had to go over Rory O'More Bridge to get to Heuston Station (and O'More Bridge was also two-way back then), but an additional parallel artery to the quays would have been highly useful.

dfx-

AlekSmart wrote: »

Of course the 145 will be popular at Heuston,given that it terminates outside the front door with at least some of the "popularity" being due to a rather lesser service than the 8 minute goal of ND.

Indeed I would put forward, AlekSmart, that if you put any of the cobweb routes 111 or 172 or 5 or 8 or 161 etc etc outside the door of Heuston and USIT on Aston Quay, it would 'prove popular'.

39, 145, 46A, 128, 151, 51s, 27, 77, 15s, 16s, 19s, 25s, 66/67, 92 (maybe).

That's a selection off the top of my head of routes that should fall under the column "leave alone at all costs" on DBs balance sheet. They've already messed with [or are about to] half of them. What hope for the orbital routes?:eek:

CIE

You know what struck me just now...? Aside from assigning alpha suffixes to primary routes (seemingly at random), what's with the retention of three-digit route numbers when there are so many unused two-digit ones (and at least two single-digit numbers out of use)? Numbers 6, 9, 10, 20,* 21, 22, 23, 24, 28, 29,* 30, 34, 35, 36, 46,* 48,* 52, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 64, 71, 72, 73, 80, 81, 82, 85, 86, 87, 89, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98 and 99 are currently un-assigned. That's aside from the numbers that are about to be relegated to non-use, of course.

* Out of use in the case of the non-suffixed number.

transik

So,along with route changes, timetables times will change too??
i travell do my work in bus 27 6.05 monday to saturday,
is that mean dublin bus will cancel service 6.05 on that route??

patrickbrophy18

dfx- wrote: »

Indeed I would put forward, AlekSmart, that if you put any of the cobweb routes 111 or 172 or 5 or 8 or 161 etc etc outside the door of Heuston and USIT on Aston Quay, it would 'prove popular'.

39, 145, 46A, 128, 151, 51s, 27, 77, 15s, 16s, 19s, 25s, 66/67, 92 (maybe).

That's a selection off the top of my head of routes that should fall under the column "leave alone at all costs" on DBs balance sheet. They've already messed with [or are about to] half of them. What hope for the orbital routes?:eek:

The 111 operates between Dun Laoghaire and Loughlinstown Park with six journey's from Dun Laoghaire and five journeys from Loughlinstown Park Monday to Friday. The 172 doesn't exist. The 5 operates from Sandyford with a mere five journey's per day, each way Monday to Saturday. The 8 bus operates from Dalkey to Dublin City seven times a day, each way Monday to Friday. Finally, the 161 operates between Rockbrook and Nutgrove five times a day, each way Monday to Friday. What exactly do you mean when you say putting them "outside the door of Heuston Station"?

Heart

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

The 111 operates between Dun Laoghaire and Loughlinstown Park with six journey's from Dun Laoghaire and five journeys from Loughlinstown Park Monday to Friday. The 172 doesn't exist. The 5 operates from Sandyford with a mere five journey's per day, each way Monday to Saturday. The 8 bus operates from Dalkey to Dublin City seven times a day, each way Monday to Friday. Finally, the 161 operates between Rockbrook and Nutgrove five times a day, each way Monday to Friday. What exactly do you mean when you say putting them "outside the door of Heuston Station"?

I assume the poster means that putting any route outside Heuston Station's front door it'll be popular... and that the fact the 145 is busy leaving Heuston isn't bacuase of its routing, but more so because its there waiting for people as would any route like those listed...

H

KD345

CIE wrote: »

what's with the retention of three-digit route numbers when there are so many unused two-digit ones

I believe once Netwtork Direct is completed, the plan is for each route to be renumbered to a more simplistic system.

Corruptedmorals

AlekSmart wrote: »

Hmmm I would have expected Mssrs Deloitte to have been just bursting with idea`s such as required here ?

I would have thought that exploring the link provided by Jervis Street from the North Quay`s all the way up to Parnell St/Bolton Street would have been a worthwhile exercise ?

There is currently quite a deal of kerbside space around the Parnell Cinema`s which could,with a bit of application,be a worthwhile terminus.

The Jervis Street routing is a viable Bus Priority link but subject to a serious reduction in on-street car parking.

It also opens an alternative Public Transport Route Option to the Henry St/Mary St shopping areas......:eek:

Yep but the laziest option was quays-d'olier street-pearse street. Not of course that all busses actually made it there, several turfed everyone off (and are still doing this- 67 a few days ago) at Bachelors Walk, before going out of service up O'Connell Street- to Phibsboro garage I imagine. Anyway I'm sure they decided the easiest way was the above routing and that the many stops on the quays would adequately serve those wanting to go to the northside.

Sunday service is disgraceful, I'm glad I left my part-time job and no longer rely on it. The internet times are wrong. I thought I just missed my bus this morning but turns out that it was long gone. Went for the train thinking if it was late I could go to the busstop right outside. While waiting the bus went past- 20 minutes earlier than it should have according to the internet. Incidentally the train was half an hour late. The busses home are at 5 past the hour, extremely inconvenient when you work in a shop- would be much better if they were at half past. Got a 66A which isn't that far from me but it's a long walk to most parts of Leixlip from it.

Dyr

KD345 wrote: »

I believe once Netwtork Direct is completed, the plan is for each route to be renumbered to a more simplistic system.

yeah by the time they're finished the numbering system will be 1 to 5 :pac:

CIE

AlekSmart wrote: »

Hmmm I would have expected Mssrs Deloitte to have been just bursting with idea`s such as required here ?

I would have thought that exploring the link provided by Jervis Street from the North Quay`s all the way up to Parnell St/Bolton Street would have been a worthwhile exercise ?

There is currently quite a deal of kerbside space around the Parnell Cinema`s which could,with a bit of application,be a worthwhile terminus.

The Jervis Street routing is a viable Bus Priority link but subject to a serious reduction in on-street car parking.

It also opens an alternative Public Transport Route Option to the Henry St/Mary St shopping areas......:eek:

Hmm, missed that when I was here last. You're talking about part of the former route 23's routing here? because that was the last route that ran the full length of Jervis Street.

And that reminds me that we now live in an age where Clonliffe Road only gets bus service when there's an "incident on Fairview Strand" (notice the over-zealous spell checker didn't like "Poplar Row" and decided to make it more "popular").

Bolton Street never had a bus service, has it? at least not in the latter half of the last century that I recall. Would have thought that a good way to get to Stoneybatter from the city centre would have been to go via Bolton Street and North King Street, too...

dfx-

Heart wrote: »

I assume the poster means that putting any route outside Heuston Station's front door it'll be popular... and that the fact the 145 is busy leaving Heuston isn't bacuase of its routing, but more so because its there waiting for people as would any route like those listed...

H

Yep, nail on the head. The 145 specifically offers nothing any route couldn't.

Except for headaches for its old normal customers.

patrickbrophy18

dfx- wrote: »

Yep, nail on the head. The 145 specifically offers nothing any route couldn't.

Except for headaches for its old normal customers.

If the 8 were extended to Heuston, that would be Brilliant. It would have to be turned into an all day service to justify it being popular though. It could also be extended to Cherrywood at it's Dalkey end to re-populate the numbers. As Dalkey is a currently dead end terminus, the numbers can be quite scarce.

loyatemu

AlekSmart wrote: »

The reality of 45 minute gaps on promised 10 min frequency routes suddenly being visible to all on dayglo yellow LED displays will,I suspect,only serve to pile even more pressure on the current interpretation of the Deloitte Report`s recommendations.

It won't work like that - if a 145 is at Heuston the stops in the CC will display "10 mins" and it'll just count down from 10 to 1 over the course of 45 minutes.

AlekSmart

It won't work like that - if a 145 is at Heuston the stops in the CC will display "10 mins" and it'll just count down from 10 to 1 over the course of 45 minutes.

Hmmm,Loyatemu....is there a :rolleyes: or :rolleyes: :rolleyes: missing from your last post....

Dyr

loyatemu wrote: »

It won't work like that - if a 145 is at Heuston the stops in the CC will display "10 mins" and it'll just count down from 10 to 1 over the course of 45 minutes.

There was some very long 10 minutes showing up on those signs alright when they were tested.

The displays were also showing buses as "due" for about 5-10 minutes after they'd left the stop :pac:

CIE

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

If the 8 were extended to Heuston, that would be Brilliant. It would have to be turned into an all day service to justify it being popular though. It could also be extended to Cherrywood at it's Dalkey end to re-populate the numbers. As Dalkey is a currently dead end terminus, the numbers can be quite scarce.

What confused me with the 8/59 situation is why DB cut the city-centre bus and not the local bus. However, a Cherrywood bus going via Dalkey wouldn't be too popular with city-bound travellers.

And oh yeah, the whole "extend this/that route to Heuston" bandwagon makes me wonder if anyone would call for extending bus routes to Broadstone if that station were reopened for IE services (not Luas to Cabra; that's a horrid idea that needs to go away...Broadstone-Maynooth trains would be way better for me than having to go the extra distance to Connolly; it'd mean a trip to Maynooth in perhaps 25 minutes or even less).

AlekSmart

And oh yeah, the whole "extend this/that route to Heuston" bandwagon makes me wonder if anyone would call for extending bus routes to Broadstone

Indeed CIE,and that I would suggest is yet another valid reason to look again at the Jervis St/Parnell St/Domnick St/Bolton St alignments.

This particular part of Dublins North Inner City has been neglected for decades now in Public Transport terms whilst offering quite a bit in terms of space for Bus Termini/Layover space.

It might also be worth posters while to take a good hard look at the latest "next best thing" on the way from Dublin Bus,particularly if your from the Ballymun/Clondalkin area....

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Network-Direct/Network-Direct-Phase-1/BallymunClondalkin/

Unusually enough both the 11 and the 19A appear to have dropped off the radar here and one also has to admire the chutzpah of the following little corker......

Route 4, 17a & 151 will remain unchanged

Quite a brass-neck statement which would appear to give the lie to the PR puff about the "Improvements" all being subject to review after implementation...

Remember folks,Sunday 23rd January is the last day for your praises to be sung !!!!

med1

AlekSmart wrote: »

Indeed CIE,and that I would suggest is yet another valid reason to look again at the Jervis St/Parnell St/Domnick St/Bolton St alignments.

This particular part of Dublins North Inner City has been neglected for decades now in Public Transport terms whilst offering quite a bit in terms of space for Bus Termini/Layover space.

It might also be worth posters while to take a good hard look at the latest "next best thing" on the way from Dublin Bus,particularly if your from the Ballymun/Clondalkin area....

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Network-Direct/Network-Direct-Phase-1/BallymunClondalkin/

Unusually enough both the 11 and the 19A appear to have dropped off the radar here and one also has to admire the chutzpah of the following little corker......

Route 4, 17a & 151 will remain unchanged

Quite a brass-neck statement which would appear to give the lie to the PR puff about the "Improvements" all being subject to review after implementation...

Remember folks,Sunday 23rd January is the last day for your praises to be sung !!!!

17a is ben changed with the finglas ballyfermot change due dec 5 last year
i dont think there is any point in complaining to dublin bus any more as they dont seem to listen to any advice i have found it better to contact the national transportation section in the cit centre in the irish mall shopping centre directly they hate people calling about dublin buses network changes but they are the ones that are checking the timetables and routes pre implementation and are giving the ok to them so everybody write to them as they are the real people responsible for allowing the fiasco

thomasj

CIE wrote: »

And oh yeah, the whole "extend this/that route to Heuston" bandwagon makes me wonder if anyone would call for extending bus routes to Broadstone if that station were reopened for IE services (not Luas to Cabra; that's a horrid idea that needs to go away...Broadstone-Maynooth trains would be way better for me than having to go the extra distance to Connolly; it'd mean a trip to Maynooth in perhaps 25 minutes or even less).

It's a good idea but it would have to supplement existing maynooth services not replace them.

This maybe convenient for people like yourself but there are many people on the line that require onward connections curtailing the maynooth line would have a serious effect on these people.

Likewise we are still trying to plaster up the broken rail network (ie heuston-Connolly, luas green line) we can't be making more work for ourselves!

It's doable but don't fix what's not broken! (ie existing maynnoth line services)

Cool Mo D

AlekSmart wrote: »

Indeed CIE,and that I would suggest is yet another valid reason to look again at the Jervis St/Parnell St/Domnick St/Bolton St alignments.

This particular part of Dublins North Inner City has been neglected for decades now in Public Transport terms whilst offering quite a bit in terms of space for Bus Termini/Layover space.

It might also be worth posters while to take a good hard look at the latest "next best thing" on the way from Dublin Bus,particularly if your from the Ballymun/Clondalkin area....

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Network-Direct/Network-Direct-Phase-1/BallymunClondalkin/

Unusually enough both the 11 and the 19A appear to have dropped off the radar here and one also has to admire the chutzpah of the following little corker......

Route 4, 17a & 151 will remain unchanged

Quite a brass-neck statement which would appear to give the lie to the PR puff about the "Improvements" all being subject to review after implementation...

Remember folks,Sunday 23rd January is the last day for your praises to be sung !!!!

How exactly do you see Jervis/Parnell streets being used?

Looking at the streets, I would see a good possibility that some buses from the Howth road (31,130) would head cityward via the Ballybough road, Summerhill, and Parnell street, before doing a loop south on Capel street, East on Ormond Quay, and terminating on Jervis street by the Luas.

Buses from the Swords road (41, 41c, 33) could do much the same by heading down to Bolton street from Dorset street, then Capel street - Ormond Quay, Jervis street. The top of Capel street needs to be made 2-way though.

I don't know about Dominick street though - I don't see a route that would benefit that much compared to the Western Way route.

I do see a possibility of re-routing the 4 away from O'Connell street though: Church street - Christchurch - College Green - Pearse/Townsend street - Westland row - Merrion Square would give a new route through route across the city.

A lot of these streets would need improved bus lanes and light sequences for this to work though.

Tae laidir

I don't see a reason why the new 27 can't work. The loadings on the 77 right now are very low, and it's not reliable. It doesn't stick to the timetable which is probably one of the reasons it's not as successful as it once was. Any enhancement to this route should be welcomed. I believe a shake up is needed, and we may once again have a frequent route offering new connections for those in Greenhills, Walkinstown, Crumlin, Fairview, Artane and Coolock.[/QUOTE]


The reason why the loadings are below what they should be are that DB have got rid of all the Bus Stops between before Tara St. Fire Station on Pearse Street and the Olympia Theatre on Dame Street. They want Crumlin/Drimnagh/Walkinstown people to use the 150, 151 or accept the meanderings of the 123. If you are waiting for the 27 to 'shake up' things, I fear you will be disappointed!