Dublin Bus Network Review

CIE

thomasj wrote: »

me wrote: »

And oh yeah, the whole "extend this/that route to Heuston" bandwagon makes me wonder if anyone would call for extending bus routes to Broadstone if that station were reopened for IE services (not Luas to Cabra; that's a horrid idea that needs to go away...Broadstone-Maynooth trains would be way better for me than having to go the extra distance to Connolly; it'd mean a trip to Maynooth in perhaps 25 minutes or even less)

It's a good idea but it would have to supplement existing maynooth services not replace them.

This maybe convenient for people like yourself but there are many people on the line that require onward connections curtailing the maynooth line would have a serious effect on these people.

Likewise we are still trying to plaster up the broken rail network (ie heuston-Connolly, luas green line) we can't be making more work for ourselves!

It's doable but don't fix what's not broken! (ie existing maynnoth line services)

"Supplement" was my thought as well. I was not thinking of getting rid of existing connectivity at Connolly, but a shorter trip for the convenience of commuters and shoppers; having the buses meet the trains there would help things. It would also be a good terminal for some Sligo services, and of course if they ever decide to finish the railway line to Navan beyond the M3 P/R station.

AlekSmart

How exactly do you see Jervis/Parnell streets being used?

Cool Mo D kinda answers his/her own question here...

A lot of these streets would need improved bus lanes and light sequences for this to work though.

There is little point in putting forward any bus related suggestions unless Dublin City Council and the other relevant authorities are on-board.

This lack of co-operation is something which has blighted almost all attempts to get some form of cohesive City-Bus system and it is in no small way adding to the woes of Network Direct as a concept.

The Jervis Street routing is currently 75% useless due to On Street Pay and Display car parking.

Eliminating this to facilitate Bus movements would be a major test of DCC`s committment,however if the rest of the City is anything to go by I`d be somewhat unwilling to hold my breath.

antoinolachtnai

In fairness to city council, I think they perceive a failure to deliver improved services on the part of Dublin Bus. There have been major improvements in bus priority but DB is failing to deliver extra commuters and shoppers into the city (in contrast to Luas, for instance).

This is not an issue that I have ever heard of Dcc raising, but the failure to sort out ticketing by db causes a lot of problems for The council. It increases the amount of bus stop space required. It causes needless tailbacks in the city centre in the evening.

AlekSmart

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

In fairness to city council, I think they perceive a failure to deliver improved services on the part of Dublin Bus. There have been major improvements in bus priority but DB is failing to deliver extra commuters and shoppers into the city (in contrast to Luas, for instance).

This is not an issue that I have ever heard of Dcc raising, but the failure to sort out ticketing by db causes a lot of problems for The council. It increases the amount of bus stop space required. It causes needless tailbacks in the city centre in the evening.

This is quite the Chicken and Egg situation right enough with,as Antoin says,DCC perceiving failure on DB`s part,but then that of itself could also stem from the desires of a certain element of DCC to take over full responsibility for the Capital`s public Bus services.

The "Major Improvements" in bus priority are quite obvious to all,and for sure the "College Green Bus Gate" has been flogged around the Circus Ring ad nauseum.

Yet there remain many long-running issues which show how DCC and DB remain at loggerheads and will continue to do so.

By far and away the greatest source of woe to me as a Busdriver is the inability of the City Council and the Gardai to come to terms with On Street Car Parking and it`s management in a PUBLIC Transport centred environment.

There are so many locations throughout Dublin where badly located legal Car Parking is causing daily problems with Public Transport access and which,if left unaddressed,will eventually contribute to a serious accident.

I have on many occassions,as a private citizen,written,phoned,and e-mailed various departments in DCC in attempts to get some movement on these issues but the results have been fruitless.

It is a similar situation with The Gardai.

Recent frustration with the weekend parking situation in Ranelagh led me to telephone the Garda Traffic Corps HQ direct to report a situation,only to be answered by the most disassociated member in the force who advised me to ring the local station "if I thought there was a problem".

I should perhaps add that repeated reporting to DB Central Control and thence via the offical liason channels also led to diddley squat being done in relation to the continuing problem.

The Ticketing issue is,as I`m sure Antoin is aware,a long running and intricate isue which has it`s roots in DB`s requirement to maintain a cash-flow in the absence of Central Funding at for example an EU wide level.

The Department of Transport maintains a tight grip over DB cash fares (Whether through the NTA or otherwise) and,as was proven during the Euro Changeover,the Dept will move swiftly to assert this authority when it`s aroused.

Even DB`s own attempts to introduce Smart Card technology suffers from the Inertia Principle inherent in Governmental supervised operations.

The DB Smart Card range remains limited to cards which directly replace existing Mag-Stripe range with much fulminating going on as to whether to allow new contactless ticket ranges.

Turf wars continue to be waged all around Dublin`s Public Transport operations and the result is always negative for the passenger,but I suppose we need to retain a sense of optimism....don`t we......:o ?

Tragedy

I see the 128 changes have been announced, but no mention of 15/74/74a changes to go with it.
Anyone know for definite what the plan is?

thomasj

Tragedy wrote: »

I see the 128 changes have been announced, but no mention of 15/74/74a changes to go with it.
Anyone know for definite what the plan is?

I was thinking that myself!

The new all day 10-minute frequency 128 coupled with Eden quays plans for the malahide road buses would have led me to believe the 15s were part of that plan, but there's no mention on the site?

dfx-

On VT45 operating a 39A at lunchtime there.

35-40 people on it at Blanchardstown Shopping Centre. Not a single one was still on board at College Green. The 6-7 people on board at College Green all boarded at O'Connell Bridge.

There is no demand for buses to be sent from Blanchardstown to UCD...

thomasj

I haven't been on a 39a yet that has been busy going to belfield

The 39a has been alot busier though going from belfield towards blanch. It might just be the time of day I use it.

Tragedy

thomasj wrote: »

I was thinking that myself!

The new all day 10-minute frequency 128 coupled with Eden quays plans for the malahide road buses would have led me to believe the 15s were part of that plan, but there's no mention on the site?

And you cant route the 15 to ballycullen without altering/removing either the 74(more likely) or 74a(slightly less likely)

thomasj

dfx- wrote: »

On VT45 operating a 39A at lunchtime there.

35-40 people on it at Blanchardstown Shopping Centre. Not a single one was still on board at College Green. The 6-7 people on board at College Green all boarded at O'Connell Bridge.

There is no demand for buses to be sent from Blanchardstown to UCD...

Sure not that many people would be travelling to belfield at lunchtime

Add to that, that the route the 39a takes is more or less served by a half a dozen dozen routes. So people waiting on that bus could easily take a 37, 38, 38a, 39, 70, 25, 25a, 25b

antoinolachtnai

AlekSmart wrote: »

This is quite the Chicken and Egg situation right enough with,as Antoin says,DCC perceiving failure on DB`s part,but then that of itself could also stem from the desires of a certain element of DCC to take over full responsibility for the Capital`s public Bus services.

Turf wars continue to be waged all around Dublin`s Public Transport operations and the result is always negative for the passenger,but I suppose we need to retain a sense of optimism....don`t we......:o ?

A sense of humour more like.

Lots of people are involved. TDs, councillors, officials of all colours.

The problem is that the whole thing isn't really being led forward. I would say myself that it was DB's job, because DB is (like it or not) the lynchpin of public transport in our great city. You could argue about that, and maybe we will another day.

That job has really been taken off Dublin Bus now and a large part of this role has now been moved to the NTA, which is taking on a TfL-like role.

The issue with traffic is basically about operations. We (meaning the 'big' we) plan out these big schemes, to have the best buses in Europe and the best bus lanes in the universe, and so forth, but we aren't good enough at the nitty gritty of implementing them. It's all about the dirty detail, the basic parking enforcement and stuff like that.

ardmacha

thomasj wrote: »

I haven't been on a 39a yet that has been busy going to belfield

The 39a has been alot busier though going from belfield towards blanch. It might just be the time of day I use it.

Is UCD open today?

Corruptedmorals

dfx- wrote: »

On VT45 operating a 39A at lunchtime there.

35-40 people on it at Blanchardstown Shopping Centre. Not a single one was still on board at College Green. The 6-7 people on board at College Green all boarded at O'Connell Bridge.

There is no demand for buses to be sent from Blanchardstown to UCD...

UCD is not back until the 17th. Its library is also closed, re-opening tomorrow. Most colleges will not go back before the 17th, that's Trinity's date too.

No but I'd imagine in term times in the mornings and coming back in the evenings is steady enough for UCD. It's great that these busses and busses like the 66X go to Belfield, it's a bitch of a commute otherwise.

A-Train

Stevek101 wrote: »

I am sure the people on the 42a/b will be pissed.

I have only seen the Malahide Road Phase details for the 42a/b tonight and the timetable estimate being 60mins peak and off peak is tough, this situation is not helped by the ND info page about the 42a/b turning into the 27a is mistyped. People looking for info are told that the 42 is turning in the 27a and that the 42a will operate as normal.

KC8

Reading through this long forum its amazing to see how constructive most of the comments have been. In my mind the network direct plan is a long overdue update to the Dublin Bus network. The plan is sound. Its the implementation that is the problem.

The increase in cross city services ensures the retention of the College Green bus gate, the removal of widespread criticisim about the number of buses lying idle around the city centre and a significant increase in the transfer options for passengers. Surely the proposed changes to the 40s or the 27 are attractive to most passengers compared to their current city termini?

However what seems to be missing is the acknowledgement that reliability is key to retaining and growing the customer base. Surely the running times should be overly generous in the initial period of a new service to ensure this key element is met above all else and then modified over time to ensure max efficiency?

The 145 service on paper looks very attractive - easy timetable to understand, consistent intervals between departures with a sensible adjustment for Saturdays and Sundays. The connection to Hueston is an added bonus. However it is essential that the service is reliable and intermediate departure times are used along such a long route. While on this point, it is also essential that during off peak times, intermediate times are also used on all new cross city services. For example, if the new 27/77 is only operating every 30 minutes on a Sunday evening, its no good saying it will take approx X minues to get from Citywest to Eden Quay, it has to offer a time before which the bus wont depart Eden Quay.

Finally some specific comments:
Route 39: To increase current frequencies without the use of additional buses, why not send the bus direct along Clonsila Road between Clonsilla Village and Blanchardstown village. ?Avoiding the Centre and Harstown must save c30mins journey time. Connections to the centre can be met by Urbus or by walking!
Route 145: Why not avoid the 3 sides of a square diversion at Killarney Road which should save at least 5 minutes running time?
Route 25A/B: Why not extend terminus to RDS using old circleline routing? This would solve the problems with the current terminus, help ease problems with the reduction in the no 4 service and create a new link from the merrion road to St Stephens Green.

CIE

kc8 wrote: »

Surely the proposed changes to the 40s or the 27 are attractive to most passengers compared to their current city termini?

What would make you think that?

kc8 wrote: »

what seems to be missing is the acknowledgement that reliability is key to retaining and growing the customer base. Surely the running times should be overly generous in the initial period of a new service to ensure this key element is met above all else and then modified over time to ensure max efficiency?

Nobody wants to ride a slow bus. Speed sells more than frequency. Slowing a bus route down to make it more "reliable" is called timetable padding, and passengers can see through that trick, opting instead to drive, since they can then control the road speed personally at least.

kc8 wrote: »

Route 39: To increase current frequencies without the use of additional buses, why not send the bus direct along Clonsila Road between Clonsilla Village and Blanchardstown village? Avoiding the Centre and Harstown must save c(irca?) 30 mins journey time. Connections to the centre can be met by Urbus or by walking

The part of Clonsilla Road between Blanchardstown Road South and Porter's Road is now (strangely) one-way westbound, and has been narrowed down to a single lane. So unless the two-way flow were restored, or a contra-flow bus lane were built (both would require re-widening the road), that's a no-go. You can't even drive from Clonsilla to Blanchardstown that way anymore, at least legally. The routing you suggest was, for the record, the original route of the 39A. (And thirty minutes? How slow are you estimating the average speed to be?)

(BTW, "Shelerin Road" south of Hartstown Road...? I always knew that as Blakestown Road all the way from the then-N3 to Clonsilla Road.)

angel01

It is now getting impossible to get a bus from Stephens Green, going in the direction of O'Connell Street. :mad: I waited again 30 mins yesterday evening, no sign of a 46A, 11.

Dublin Bus are ruining their services and the team behind all these changes are destroying it. I wish I had a car.:(

Devilman40k

KC8 wrote: »

While on this point, it is also essential that during off peak times, intermediate times are also used on all new cross city services. For example, if the new 27/77 is only operating every 30 minutes on a Sunday evening, its no good saying it will take approx X minues to get from Citywest to Eden Quay, it has to offer a time before which the bus wont depart Eden Quay.

I'm not sure passengers sat on Eden Quay on this route would agree that sitting idle for possibly 10/15 minutes makes sense. Passengers tend to get off and get the next route servicing the area they want to go (if possible) or just walk if its deemed close enough! It happens on the 46a when theres a changeover of driver and has happened on the 151 route too (in both cases instances that I have witnessed first hand and the delay then was never more than 5 minutes)

the boss of me

KC8 wrote: »

While on this point, it is also essential that during off peak times, intermediate times are also used on all new cross city services. For example, if the new 27/77 is only operating every 30 minutes on a Sunday evening, its no good saying it will take approx X minues to get from Citywest to Eden Quay, it has to offer a time before which the bus wont depart Eden Quay.

It seems that intermediate timing points are part of the plan for at least some of the new routes,

from DB website ;

All routes will now have stop-specific departure times at selected locations for e.g. Route 13 will have specific departure times from D’Olier Street and Parnell Square West making it easier to plan your journey.

I can't see passengers being too happy getting on a no 13 bus in OConnell St only to drive to Parnell Sq and sit there for 10 or 15 minutes till it's time to leave.

Cookie_Monster

the boss of me wrote: »

I can't see passengers being too happy getting on a no 13 bus in OConnell St only to drive to Parnell Sq and sit there for 10 or 15 minutes till it's time to leave.

I don't think there would be that much leeway built in, in fact given the general shortened running times all round I would expect it to be late most of the time during rush hour when it turns up at Parnell Sq.

snickerpuss

I'm really shocked at the proposed Malahide Route.

The 27 is now essentially the 42b (considering the '27a' seems to be one an hour?) but isn't increasing in frequency despite both being really busy routes. And it is bypassing Northside completely. This I find odd considering how many people (mainly older) from Darndale and surrounds use it not only to get to Northside but also the new Civic Centre which is on the Bunratty Road and holds the social welfare offices etc. I can't see all these older people who shop in Northside walking back over to the Greencastle Road with their bags. And they can't go to Clare Hall so where can the elderly people in Darndale shop, use the bank etc? I just don't understand how hard it could be to go around the park to Northside.

The 79 seems to be serving Northside but presumably down Coolock Lane and then into Beaumont? (ie-going from Beaumont down to Northside, back to Beaumont, around Artane, back up towards Coolock and out onto the Malahide Road finally. This is insane on a busy route in the mornings!

Why is every route for people who live by Northside either incredibly long (going into Beaumont) or meaning walking over to Darndale?

It just strikes me as odd considering how unbelievably busy this route is in the morning.

Can you tell my family home is near Northside?
I'm currently living off the Malahide Road so I still have a choice of buses but I really find that odd and thinking of my parents and grandparents it's going to be really awkward for them.

I got the 27X for four years and I was always terrified they'd do away with it. They had it down to 3 and they were all jammed, esp the 7.25am one so that in itself is a bit odd but ah well.

D14

I think this is all an attempt by Dublin bus to force the nation loose weight..
For example the Dublin bus workout includes,

1. Getting up at the break of dawn to make sure you have enought time to catch the bus because of the drop in frequency
2. Walking an extra mile or four to get to your bus stop that has been moved to the nearest dualcarraigeway in the morning and evening
3. Waiting in the freezing cold in the evening, burning extra calories to keep from going into hypothermia

Also does anyone understand how Dublin bus propose to run the new 14 ? On the diagram it says,

• Eden Quay
• Rathmines Road Upper
• Braemor Park
• Beaumont Avenue

How can a 14 run the way of a 128/14a through Rathmines road Upper and then cross over the the current 14 route (Rathgar road/Orwell Road), does this mean that busses are going to run up Highfield road or Orwell park ? Or is this another typo ?

markpb

the boss of me wrote: »

It seems that intermediate timing points are part of the plan for at least some of the new routes.

I think (but could very well be wrong) that a driver posted here that the times were guidelines only and they were not required to wait for that time before passing way points. If that's the case, it makes them useless.

the boss of me wrote: »

I can't see passengers being too happy getting on a no 13 bus in OConnell St only to drive to Parnell Sq and sit there for 10 or 15 minutes till it's time to leave.

Ideally the driver should know if he's going to reach the way point early and slow down in advance so there's no long wait. It might make individual journeys slightly slower but it makes the route as a whole reliable and predictable. Of course, this only works well when there are a few way points instead of one every 5km and when the intermediate times are adjusted for times like the Summer when there is less traffic.

This is how you do it properly once you've established a proper underlying system:

GPS units now being installed in Downtown DASH buses allow drivers to see whether they are keeping the proper spacing between the buses in front and behind. [...] The devices now being installed give a graphic display of the distance between the driver's vehicle and those in front and behind. By slowing down or speeding up, the driver is able to keep his or her vehicle near the "Ideal" mark indicated on the display.

Dyr

D14 wrote: »

[*]Walking an extra mile or four to get to your bus stop that has been moved to the nearest dualcarraigeway in the morning and evening

in dublinbus speak this is actually shortening journey time's

thomasj

KC8 wrote: »

Reading through this long forum its amazing to see how constructive most of the comments have been. In my mind the network direct plan is a long overdue update to the Dublin Bus network. The plan is sound. Its the implementation that is the problem.

The increase in cross city services ensures the retention of the College Green bus gate, the removal of widespread criticisim about the number of buses lying idle around the city centre and a significant increase in the transfer options for passengers. Surely the proposed changes to the 40s or the 27 are attractive to most passengers compared to their current city termini?

However what seems to be missing is the acknowledgement that reliability is key to retaining and growing the customer base. Surely the running times should be overly generous in the initial period of a new service to ensure this key element is met above all else and then modified over time to ensure max efficiency?

The 145 service on paper looks very attractive - easy timetable to understand, consistent intervals between departures with a sensible adjustment for Saturdays and Sundays. The connection to Hueston is an added bonus. However it is essential that the service is reliable and intermediate departure times are used along such a long route. While on this point, it is also essential that during off peak times, intermediate times are also used on all new cross city services. For example, if the new 27/77 is only operating every 30 minutes on a Sunday evening, its no good saying it will take approx X minues to get from Citywest to Eden Quay, it has to offer a time before which the bus wont depart Eden Quay.

Finally some specific comments:
Route 39: To increase current frequencies without the use of additional buses, why not send the bus direct along Clonsila Road between Clonsilla Village and Blanchardstown village. ?Avoiding the Centre and Harstown must save c30mins journey time. Connections to the centre can be met by Urbus or by walking!
Route 145: Why not avoid the 3 sides of a square diversion at Killarney Road which should save at least 5 minutes running time?
Route 25A/B: Why not extend terminus to RDS using old circleline routing? This would solve the problems with the current terminus, help ease problems with the reduction in the no 4 service and create a new link from the merrion road to St Stephens Green.

With regards to the 39, a fair few people from "the loop" would be travelling the coolmine, clonsilla road, clonsilla village, clonsilla station, roselawn, blanch village areas.

The 39a goes NOWHERE near any of these areas!

If you are going to implement such a radical change to the 39, which I think would be a drastic plan for the route, you are going to have to resolve this issue somehow!

thomasj

Cie, I remember that little blakestown road sign just after the Clonsilla village junction, I just dont know if and when it was called that I just remember shelerin road!

CIE

snickerpuss wrote: »

I'm really shocked at the proposed Malahide Route

I don't understand it myself. "Route 42 will operate all trips from Malahide via Portmarnock and The Hill to Malahide Village then via Seabury to the City Centre"...why? The map is not very clear either.

Now funny enough, the 42A being the Malahide bus was before my time, but I was always of the opinion that service to Malahide ought to have perpetually been configured as two branches, with the Seamount and later Portmarnock routing as the 42A and the Coast Road routing as the un-affixed 42. What of the 142? That should have been given greater frequency, I thought.

snickerpuss wrote: »

The 27 is now essentially the 42b (considering the '27a' seems to be one an hour?) but isn't increasing in frequency despite both being really busy routes. And it is bypassing Northside completely. This I find odd considering how many people (mainly older) from Darndale and surrounds use it not only to get to Northside but also the new Civic Centre which is on the Bunratty Road and holds the social welfare offices etc. I can't see all these older people who shop in Northside walking back over to the Greencastle Road with their bags. And they can't go to Clare Hall so where can the elderly people in Darndale shop, use the bank etc? I just don't understand how hard it could be to go around the park to Northside

Certainly looks like not a lot was thought through properly. It isn't like the old route 101 is still running, and you could make that the local-running bus that can connect Darndale with Clare Hall.

The new 27A to me is highly confusing. I used to have relations living near Northside, and that was the bus route I always took to go see them. (Used to be a bit more useful for me when they changed the route to short-turn at Northside instead of running both ways on Bunratty Road to go to the old Cromcastle Drive terminus.)

snickerpuss wrote: »

The 79 seems to be serving Northside but presumably down Coolock Lane and then into Beaumont? (ie-going from Beaumont down to Northside, back to Beaumont, around Artane, back up towards Coolock and out onto the Malahide Road finally. This is insane on a busy route in the mornings!

The map shows the terminus at Castletimon, then going from there to Northside, then into Beaumont Hospital, and taking Skelly's Lane towards Ardlea Road and the roundabout. That cuts a lot of people on Kilmore Road off from direct service to town, and creates another excessively-long routing from Northside to town. Also, how is it getting from Castletimon to Northside, via Dundaniel Road and Coolock Lane? then heading down Kilmore Road and Kilbarron Road to go through Beaumont Hospital...? Can't figure that one out. Enough people are angry over the cessation of service to Harristown as well.

snickerpuss wrote: »

Why is every route for people who live by Northside either incredibly long (going into Beaumont) or meaning walking over to Darndale?

It just strikes me as odd considering how unbelievably busy this route is in the morning.

Can you tell my family home is near Northside?
I'm currently living off the Malahide Road so I still have a choice of buses but I really find that odd and thinking of my parents and grandparents it's going to be really awkward for them

More like disastrous. I thought it was bad when they made the 27 a catch-all route that replaced the 27A and 42C, but this is going from bad to worse.

snickerpuss wrote: »

I got the 27X for four years and I was always terrified they'd do away with it. They had it down to 3 and they were all jammed, esp the 7.25am one so that in itself is a bit odd but ah well.

Yes, they went and did it. And does it make sense to do away with the buses that are jam-packed full? Absolutely not, since that indicates where the demand actually is. To go from a handful to none is utterly counter-intuitive.

snickerpuss

Glad to hear it's not just me thinking that CIE!

SparkyTech

How can a 14 run the way of a 128/14a through Rathmines road Upper and then cross over the the current 14 route (Rathgar road/Orwell Road), does this mean that busses are going to run up Highfield road or Orwell park ? Or is this another typo ?

The 14a is to be discontinued, I presume some will run down Upper Rathmines and then do a right turn back down to Orwell continuing on the route, while some of them will go directly through Rathgar, continuing to give this area of Rathmines/Palmerstown a service (The 128 is down for a merger with the 15).

AlekSmart

CIE.....More like disastrous. I thought it was bad when they made the 27 a catch-all route that replaced the 27A and 42C, but this is going from bad to worse.

I can`t see any real rhyme or reason to much of this,certainly not from an operational or customer service point of view.

At this juncture it`s readily apparent that the PR puff advising people of the "Improvements" subsequent to Network Direct is somewhat wide of the mark.

However,there appears to be no way for anybody to prevent what is effectively the self-destruction of Dublin Bus.

The only thing I would suggest is for those concerned customers to make their views strongly known at the Public Consultation events which are due to end on January 23rd.

With the current state of national and local governance it also appears that few Public Representatives can be bothered to get involved either so it`s down to individuals to make their own case.