Dublin Bus Network Review

D14

SparkyTech wrote: »

The 14a is to be discontinued, I presume some will run down Upper Rathmines and then do a right turn back down to Orwell continuing on the route, while some of them will go directly through Rathgar, continuing to give this area of Rathmines/Palmerstown a service (The 128 is down for a merger with the 15).

But then how do they plan to pull off this reduction in service ? Also isn't running busses up highfield road extending journey time and making the 14 an indirect service ?
Where is everyone hearing that the 14a is going anyway ?

SparkyTech

D14 wrote: »

But then how do they plan to pull off this reduction in service ? Also isn't running busses up highfield road extending journey time and making the 14 an indirect service ?
Where is everyone hearing that the 14a is going anyway ?

Ive never noticed much of a difference between 14/14a journey times as it stands, bar in the morning time where the traffic gets chockablock for 10-15 mins at the dropping well. Wouldn't say it would make much difference to the timings, although by running them down Highfield road primarily might inconvenience some people.

14a/48a/16a were confirmed to be cut at a local council meeting sometime ago. Its mentioned somewhere earlier on this thread but the Dundrum Gazzete did a small article on it aswell a few months back.

According to the DB website, the estimate for the ''new'' 14 will be every 15 mins peak and 30 mins off peak. Thats a definite increase in service from what is currently 20 mins peak and up to 40 mins off peak in the evenings after 7 from Dundrum.

trellheim

I can see what they're doing with the 128 and 15. I have long experience with the 15, A and B before there was a 15 and it was only 15A and 15B. That's core Templeogue/Terenure/Rathgar/Rathmines and its very busy all the time peak and offpeak. Now if we get a bunch of 128 route buses logjammed on North Strand inbound in the evening peak ( i.e. the usual case ) that'll kill the planned outbound 15 route stuff ( ever wonder why there's a gang of 15s stored on Eden Quay westbound ) plus there's no easy way to go out of service and turn halfway ( ie drop everyone at Eden Quay and go back southbound ) cos the south quay crossings are all jammed silly.

poisoned apple by the looks of it. ( what are the advantages to customers : little by the looks of it )

So : on the surface looks good but has the potential to be a loony tunes

Aard

If the new 14 is to arrive every 15 minutes, and sticks to that plan, then I'll be happy. It's an average wait of 7.5 minutes. Atm, waiting 15 minutes is not unusual.

Tragedy

trellheim wrote: »

I can see what they're doing with the 128 and 15. I have long experience with the 15, A and B before there was a 15 and it was only 15A and 15B. That's core Templeogue/Terenure/Rathgar/Rathmines and its very busy all the time peak and offpeak. Now if we get a bunch of 128 route buses logjammed on North Strand inbound in the evening peak ( i.e. the usual case ) that'll kill the planned outbound 15 route stuff ( ever wonder why there's a gang of 15s stored on Eden Quay westbound ) plus there's no easy way to go out of service and turn halfway ( ie drop everyone at Eden Quay and go back southbound ) cos the south quay crossings are all jammed silly.

poisoned apple by the looks of it. ( what are the advantages to customers : little by the looks of it )

So : on the surface looks good but has the potential to be a loony tunes

Was there a 15a/b before 15? I remember the 15 starting, and I vaguely remember getting the precursor to the 15b(was it the 47? 48? Can't remember).

The 15 is always busy. Even if it picks up only a handful of people in knocklyon, it's still very busy by stephens green.

trellheim

yep, at the time ( late '80s ) the 15b ran to Ballyroan, and if you wanted anything else you got the 49/a from Firhouse road, but there were very few of them.

so if you lived in Knocklyon at the top it near Superquinn it was a long enough walk down to Butterfield Avenue to get a 15b.

And yes, the 15s are always high load, even more so now they've extended to cover whitechurch too since the old '47 into the hills is long gone.

mmm perhaps 83 and 128 might be better ?

KD345

Tragedy wrote: »

Was there a 15a/b before 15? I remember the 15 starting, and I vaguely remember getting the precursor to the 15b(was it the 47? 48? Can't remember).

The 15 is always busy. Even if it picks up only a handful of people in knocklyon, it's still very busy by stephens green.

In the late 80s and 90s, there was a 15 to Scholarstown, 15A to Limekiln Farm, 15B to Ballyroan and 15C to Willington. The service on the 15 and 15C was very low, with the 15A and 15B being the main two routes.

The 47 ran to Tibraden, 47A to Rockbrook and 47B to Grange Road. They were withdrawn around 1999, when the 161 was introduced to Whitechurch, some 16s were extended to Marley Grange and the 15C was sent to Whitechurch. The 15C was then removed with the introduction of the 74/74A and the 15B was extended to Whitechurch around 2007.

The 47 is now a totally separate route to Belarmine.

The new extended 128 will probably replace the current 15, with some altering of other routes in Templeogue too. I think it'll be a while before we see any definite plans announced.

dfx-

On EV64 this lunchtime operating an inbound 69 service. Not peak hours, yet 45-50 people onboard in Clondalkin. 8 minutes behind AX602 and 5 minutes ahead of AX524 operating 51B/Cs and still able to hold its own.

Nobody got off at the Red Cow.

atlantean

AlekSmart wrote: »

there appears to be no way for anybody to prevent what is effectively the self-destruction of Dublin Bus.

I fear you are very much correct in what you say here! After the first phase of Network Destruction I have yet to meet anyone, either passenger or bus driver who is happy with what has happened so far. Looks like it will only get worse.

Shtanto

dfx- wrote: »

On EV64 this lunchtime operating an inbound 69 service. Not peak hours, yet 45-50 people onboard in Clondalkin. 8 minutes behind AX602 and 5 minutes ahead of AX524 operating 51B/Cs and still able to hold its own.

Nobody got off at the Red Cow.

If they have to amalgamate the 51B & 51C into the 13 (unlucky for some), they should at least leave the 68 and 69 running in and out of town. I could live with that.

AlekSmart

dfx- wrote: »

On EV64 this lunchtime operating an inbound 69 service. Not peak hours, yet 45-50 people onboard in Clondalkin. 8 minutes behind AX602 and 5 minutes ahead of AX524 operating 51B/Cs and still able to hold its own.

Nobody got off at the Red Cow.

Good post dfx-.

However I suspect that the "stats" which the company will provide for routes earmarked for Network Directing will,amazingly enough,show figures at variance with what your eyes are seeing.

I should think the ND team would probably suggest you visit Specsavers as your observations could`nt possibly be correct...what would you know etc etc....:rolleyes:

It should be recalled that the Network Direct plan we are currently experiencing the benefits of was devised only after the company made much of electronically gathered information in opposition to the old-fashioned methods.

In my eyes at least,this methodology has been fairly seriously discredited by the innovative conclusions DB appear to have been able to pin onto the electroincally gathered data.

The thinking now beginning to develop is that Network Direct is but some form of template which will be used to force change in Dublins public transport for possibly decades to come.

It`s fairly accurate to describe the overall atmosphere now prevailing in both customers and staff as being one of bafflement as the process ploughs ever onward into a very long tunnel indeed...........see you all at the other end !!!

Dyr

AlekSmart wrote: »

Good post dfx-.


I should think the ND team would probably suggest you visit Specsavers as your observations could`nt possibly be correct...what would you know etc etc....:rolleyes:

It should be recalled that the Network Direct plan we are currently experiencing the benefits of was devised only after the company made much of electronically gathered information in opposition to the old-fashioned methods.

In my eyes at least,this methodology has been fairly seriously discredited by the innovative conclusions DB appear to have been able to pin onto the electroincally gathered data.

Speaking of which, the arrivals LED display unit was turned on again at my bus stop this morning and there was a camera attached to a nearby lamp post with a large suitcase sized yoke at it's base. dunno was it for monitoring the display unit or the bus stop....

CIE

trellheim wrote: »

I can see what they're doing with the 128 and 15. I have long experience with the 15, A and B before there was a 15 and it was only 15A and 15B. That's core Templeogue/Terenure/Rathgar/Rathmines and its very busy all the time peak and offpeak. Now if we get a bunch of 128 route buses logjammed on North Strand inbound in the evening peak (i.e. the usual case) that'll kill the planned outbound 15 route stuff (ever wonder why there's a gang of 15s stored on Eden Quay westbound) plus there's no easy way to go out of service and turn halfway (ie drop everyone at Eden Quay and go back southbound) cos the south quay crossings are all jammed silly.

poisoned apple by the looks of it. (what are the advantages to customers : little by the looks of it)

So : on the surface looks good but has the potential to be a loony tunes

"Potential to be"...? Sounds loony from the word "go". Wonder how many cars this scheme will add to the roads?

tragedy wrote: »

Was there a 15a/b before 15? I remember the 15 starting, and I vaguely remember getting the precursor to the 15b (was it the 47? 48? Can't remember).

This gets interesting. During the 70s at least, there was the 15A (terminus at the time was on Limekiln Road between Limekiln Park and Mountdown Park, with occasional short turns at Hazelbrook Road) and 15B (terminus at Marian Park), with occasional route 15 turning around at Terenure.

The 15C first showed up as an infrequent branch of the 15A serving the roundabout at Willington; it didn't replace the 47/A/B until the 90s that I recall.

The 47 series had a very interesting routing through Rathmines and Rathgar: outbound, via Townsend Street, East Lombard Street, Westland Row, Merrion Square et al to Stephen's Green; but before Rathmines centre, the bus turned right onto Leinster Road, left on Grosvenor Place, right onto Kenilworth Road, then left onto Kenilworth Square East, right onto Kenilworth Square South, and left onto Rathgar Avenue towards Orwell Road/Bushy Park Road etc..

AlekSmart

There was a camera attached to a nearby lamp post with a large suitcase sized yoke at it's base. dunno was it for monitoring the display unit or the bus stop....

That might have been DCC `s urban reindeer surveilance camera....Bambi.....erm...ok I`ll get my hat !!!

cast_iron

AlekSmart wrote: »

The Jervis Street routing is currently 75% useless due to On Street Pay and Display car parking.

Eliminating this to facilitate Bus movements would be a major test of DCC`s committment,however if the rest of the City is anything to go by I`d be somewhat unwilling to hold my breath.

The council has a commitment to the "rest of the city". I mean this in respect of taking into account more than the fact that it would make a fine bus route.

I'd say turning Jervis St into a bus thoroughfare would be a step back for the street as a whole. It's a pleasant street for shopping due to the mix of shops and slow traffic throughput.

I can see the traders up in arms over any plans for that, and rightly so. As some stage, the bigger picture and wider impact to an area of running buses through it should be considered.

antoinolachtnai

What route do you have in mind with this? I mean, what would the overall route be through the city and where in the city would you end up terminating?

cast_iron

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

What route do you have in mind with this? I mean, what would the overall route be through the city and where in the city would you end up terminating?

I had none in mind, but it was mentioned earlier by someone, and I was just addressing the fact I think the street wouldn't benefit from such a move.:)

CIE

cast_iron wrote: »

The council has a commitment to the "rest of the city". I mean this in respect of taking into account more than the fact that it would make a fine bus route.

I'd say turning Jervis St into a bus thoroughfare would be a step back for the street as a whole. It's a pleasant street for shopping due to the mix of shops and slow traffic throughput.

I can see the traders up in arms over any plans for that, and rightly so. As some stage, the bigger picture and wider impact to an area of running buses through it should be considered.

I would think that traders would welcome an adjacent bus service...? Certainly beats having slow traffic through the area (if that's what you meant); the slower the traffic is, the longer it takes to get to the parking. And that's aside from the damage that's being done to the cars from all the slow operation, which makes engine temperatures and fuel useage go up concurrently, as well as brake wear and general wear/tear. Also, lots of traffic impedes deliveries.

Jervis Street used to be a bus thoroughfare for ages; the former route 23 used it, going the opposing direction on Capel Street. Before Sherwin Bridge opened, the Drimnagh-bound buses used it; afterwards, the direction of the street was changed and the Ballybough-bound buses ran there. At the time, it was a very clever routing, since the majority of street traffic was headed straight for O'Connell Street via the quays and this routing got you away from the mess.

(Talking about this area reminds me of the old routing of the 54/A back when those were cross-city routes. Kimmage-bound buses ran via Eden Quay, O'Connell Bridge, D'Olier Street, College Street, College Green and Dame Street to Lord Edward Street...but Killester-bound buses turned left on Parliament Street, crossing Grattan Bridge onto Capel Street, then ran via all of the Abbey Streets northbound. That's a little over half a kilometre separating the two routes. Imagine being a novice with the buses back then and expecting a Killester-bound 54 on Dame Street or Westmoreland Street?)

AlekSmart

cast_iron wrote: »

The council has a commitment to the "rest of the city". I mean this in respect of taking into account more than the fact that it would make a fine bus route.

I'd say turning Jervis St into a bus thoroughfare would be a step back for the street as a whole. It's a pleasant street for shopping due to the mix of shops and slow traffic throughput.

I can see the traders up in arms over any plans for that, and rightly so. As some stage, the bigger picture and wider impact to an area of running buses through it should be considered.

I should clarify perhaps that I do not envisage using Jervis St as some form of Bus M50 as cast_iron appears to suggest.

I do believe that the link which the street provides between the North Quays and other North Bound arteries is worth exploring in the spirit of the greater good.

As for the "traders" on the street being "agin" this sort of thing,I suspect the opposite might be the case.

I should think that Smyths and Maplins would benefit greatly from a Bus Stop adjacent to their doors in preference to the current situation ?

Jervis Street is not now a shining example of "good mix" shopping at all.

The short-lived attempt to create a Cinema/Entertainment style zone around the IMAX and Parnell Cinemas floundered not least due to the lack of public transport access,something which Dublin Bus could have attempted to address with or without DCC`s support.

Jervis St most certainly does not encourage browsing and in the main is utilized largely to access major multi-storey car parks as well as the aforementioned on-street availability.

Just slightly OT,but still relevant,is the situation in Capel Street.
Here we have a formerl Bus Route which DCC has "enhanced" by reducing it to a single traffic lane with the now obligatory On-Street Parking to enhance the enhancement.

From my conversations with one long standing shopkeeper here,the Street and most of it`s Traders has not benefitted in any great way from this approach by the Council.

Even though many traders outlined their opposition to the "Enhancements" the Council embarked on the Plan anyway.

Now,most of the car-parking acts to funnel the car borne persons into Henry St and environs leaving few to linger outside the somehat exotic window displays at the nether regions of Capel St itself.

I suggest that the Jervis St routing acts to open up a NEW Public Transport corridor which for sure would benefit the large numbers of apartment/flat dwellers living in and around Parnell St/Bolton St/King St/and environs,none of whom,it appears are considered by our City Fathers as being worthy of ANY Bus service.

Most importantly Jervis St bisects the Luas red line in a manner which facilitates modal transfer for Public Transport users wanting to utilize a West-North routing without needing to sample the delights of O Connell st ad nauseum.

No matter what way we cut this we come back to DCC`s infatuation with catering for the Private Car,a situation which will always result in a watering-down of bus based proposals if not a downright rejection.

Of course,as Dublin City`s Public History history often shows us,it`s often the easiest option simply to say NO !,in the best Paisleyite tradition,whilst then retreating further into the bunker.

Do we continue to run away from considering new options in the hope of a bag of magic-beans turning up ?

D14

SparkyTech wrote: »

Ive never noticed much of a difference between 14/14a journey times as it stands, bar in the morning time where the traffic gets chockablock for 10-15 mins at the dropping well. Wouldn't say it would make much difference to the timings, although by running them down Highfield road primarily might inconvenience some people.

14a/48a/16a were confirmed to be cut at a local council meeting sometime ago. Its mentioned somewhere earlier on this thread but the Dundrum Gazzete did a small article on it aswell a few months back.

According to the DB website, the estimate for the ''new'' 14 will be every 15 mins peak and 30 mins off peak. Thats a definite increase in service from what is currently 20 mins peak and up to 40 mins off peak in the evenings after 7 from Dundrum.

Thats madness, the loadings on the 14 are going to be crazy. Now everyone from the nutgrove area are going to be taking the 14s, this combined with the extra people from the 48a are going to make getting the on the 14 after the roundabout behind nutgrove s.c. !

AlekSmart

Thats madness, the loadings on the 14 are going to be crazy. Now everyone from the nutgrove area are going to be taking the 14s, this combined with the extra people from the 48a are going to make getting the on the 14 after the roundabout behind nutgrove s.c. !

Hmmmmm....D14,if you take a peep at the N11, Lucan and Blanchardstown Network Directed corridors you might just begin to see a pattern developing......;)

Remember "A Full Bus is a Happy Bus" ( Especially if it`s VERY full and running VERY Late ) :eek:

LXFlyer

D14 wrote: »

Thats madness, the loadings on the 14 are going to be crazy. Now everyone from the nutgrove area are going to be taking the 14s, this combined with the extra people from the 48a are going to make getting the on the 14 after the roundabout behind nutgrove s.c. !

Tbh it's hardly that big an issue - the loads on the 48a are usually in single figures (with a couple of exceptions) as are the 16a between Grange Road and Nutgrove terminus.

The 14/14a, while carrying reasonable loads at peak hour are rarely full either anywhere south of Rathmines - I suspect that they can take the strain. A peak hour frequency of every 15 minutes is exactly the same as it is in the mornings already.

CIE

AlekSmart wrote: »

Hmmmmm....D14,if you take a peep at the N11, Lucan and Blanchardstown Network Directed corridors you might just begin to see a pattern developing......;)

Remember "A Full Bus is a Happy Bus" (Especially if it`s VERY full and running VERY Late) :eek:

But if enough people are discouraged from riding the bus and start driving instead, they won't be full buses for long, of course.

How short are the memories of some people...? This is City Swift repeated in a different form. There were some good things that came out of the route revisions that preceded that (even the first City Imp experiment with the 83 produced great results), but for the most part when the City Swift came (promises of high service frequencies along with route lengthening, and of course the QBCs that were never implemented properly until when?), it was done with great errors and ended up falling apart. Anyone familiar with Proverbs 26:11? There's a less-graphic version that's apocryphally attributed to Einstein (and many others): "The definition of 'insanity' is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

cast_iron

AlekSmart wrote: »

I should think that Smyths and Maplins would benefit greatly from a Bus Stop adjacent to their doors in preference to the current situation ?

I had to read that twice before the penny dropped....I read Jervis st, but was thinking Capel St:o, so apologies all.

Not wanting to drag this too OT, but I agree Jervis St would make a good route for a bus lane.

Just slightly OT,but still relevant,is the situation in Capel Street.
Here we have a formerl Bus Route which DCC has "enhanced" by reducing it to a single traffic lane with the now obligatory On-Street Parking to enhance the enhancement.

From my conversations with one long standing shopkeeper here,the Street and most of it`s Traders has not benefitted in any great way from this approach by the Council.

Even though many traders outlined their opposition to the "Enhancements" the Council embarked on the Plan anyway.

Now,most of the car-parking acts to funnel the car borne persons into Henry St and environs leaving few to linger outside the somehat exotic window displays at the nether regions of Capel St itself.

I find this interesting indeed, but it doesn't really add up. By that logic, removing the parking spaces would benefit the local traders? As I was alluding to earlier, the pace of the traffic is slow moving on Capel st (though not that congested to be a real headache really), and this makes it somewhat more pleasant for a pedestrian, as things aren't moving like Morehampton Rd on the N11!

markpb

cast_iron wrote: »

Not wanting to drag this too OT, but I agree Jervis St would make a good route for a bus lane.

Am I thinking of the same street that clogs up most Saturdays and every Christmas because of the level of traffic going into and coming out of the Jervis SC car park?

cast_iron

markpb wrote: »

Am I thinking of the same street that clogs up most Saturdays and every Christmas because of the level of traffic going into and coming out of the Jervis SC car park?

With the removal of the current on street parking there, a bus lane would have little impact on the amount of traffic that street could take. Perhaps the direct bus to Jervis centre would even reduce some of the need for cars to drive there.

AlekSmart

[QUOTE=cast_iron;69935813]

I find this interesting indeed, but it doesn't really add up. By that logic, removing the parking spaces would benefit the local traders? As I was alluding to earlier, the pace of the traffic is slow moving on Capel st (though not that congested to be a real headache really), and this makes it somewhat more pleasant for a pedestrian, as things aren't moving like Morehampton Rd on the N11![/QUOTE]

I view it from a somewhat broader perspective which also takes in the type of shop and the type of people who visit them.

In my childhood Capel St was a really interesting place to shop with one of the most eclectic collections of shops to be found on any Dublin Street.

Whether it was Lenihans Hardware,the Banba Bookshop,Steins the butchers,Flitterman the outfitter, McQuillans or Louis Copeland,Capel Street had something for everybody in a classless way.

That really is somewhat far from where we are now,having embraced the Mall principle and it`s requirement for mass movement of Private Cars.

It can and should be addressed,but until both City Administration and Public Transport providers can actually bear to sit in the same room as each other then little tangible will result.

Am I thinking of the same street that clogs up most Saturdays and every Christmas because of the level of traffic going into and coming out of the Jervis SC car park?

Markpb puts his finger directly on the one great barrier to any real Public Bus Service progress in his identification of the piss-poor planning inherent in the "flagship" Jervis Centre and the Local Authorities decision to quite literally donate Jervis Street in it`s entirety to servicing it`s Car Park.

During it`s construction this "Flagship" was touted as the Largest development of its type then under construction etc etc etc....

All of the Celtic Tiger hyperbole was brought to bear to convince us all that we NEEDED this to survive as a Capital City....Not a single voice was ever raised to ask....."erm...excuse me...eh......will you be having any place for the Buses to pull in"....or for that matter an Integrated Tram stop.....?

No Sir,Public Transport being for losers meant that the real Big-Boy`s in Town did`nt want their latest best new thing associated with Buses and the types of people using them...

The Big-Boys wanted the Car owning and driving 30 somethings and by golly DCC was not going to be found wanting in facilitating their access !

Although this is a Jervis St specific post,it is educational to do a trawl through each major City Centre Commercial Development over the past 3 decades and seek out any Public Transport specific infrastructure designed into them....

The Ilac Centre.
The Irish Life Centre.
The Stephens Green Centre.
The Parnell Centre.
The Setanta Centre.
The Arnotts Development.
The BHS (Pennys) Development.
The Switzers/BT2 Development............

The list can be added to at will....on and on...with not so much as a Public Rickshaw stop to display any sense of committment to true Public Transport facilitation.....:(

This lack of appreciation,more than anything else,renders Network Direct as little more than deckchair moving on a giant Liner set fair for the nearest biggest Iceberg with a committe of Senior Officers deliberating upon whether its real ice or not !

God I need an ice-pack......or some Public Consultation Process to put me right !!

dfx-

Today's random statistic observation:

Someone posted pages back about the loads being poor on the 77.

Date: 06-01-11
Time: 8.41pm
Peak hours?: No.
Location: Dame St outbound stop Olympia Theatre.
Route: 77
Number waiting at stop: 37
Waiting period: 10 minutes
Buses arriving at the same time: AV204 (150) EV48 (123) AV408 (151) AV21 (77)
AV21: Arriving last in the queue, no seat downstairs available, still taking on 14 passengers at the stop.

Prize* for the person who guesses correctly which got the most of the 37 customers...

*Prize may or may not exist

Devilman40k

Let me guess....the 77 !! I don't understand why the 77 isn't beefed up to run decent frequency from City West to Parnell St/Sq or even Broadstone linking with both ends of Luas Red Line and Main shopping areas of the City Centre.

Plus if the radial routes were improved e.g. a radial that ran Parkwest, Walkinstown ,Templeogue to Dun Laoighaire. Improvements to 18(that doesn't involve going to docklands as thats going to be a mistake!)/17 too.

If I'm making an idiot of myself with this suggestion tell me but it makes more sense to me to do this than running a bus with a possible 2 hour journey time off peak which is destined to lose passengers as it becomes more and more unreliable!!

D14

lxflyer wrote: »

Tbh it's hardly that big an issue - the loads on the 48a are usually in single figures (with a couple of exceptions) as are the 16a between Grange Road and Nutgrove terminus.

The 14/14a, while carrying reasonable loads at peak hour are rarely full either anywhere south of Rathmines - I suspect that they can take the strain. A peak hour frequency of every 15 minutes is exactly the same as it is in the mornings already.

The 16a is going to cause big problems, theres aprox. 30 pupils in De La Salle in Churchtown from Harolds cross, Terenure, Rathfarnham and South Circular road area combined who aren't going to be happy.

Also the bus I take every morning 14- at 7.30 is always jammed, The worst part is that it always is either THE OLDEST RV, The Wedding bus or a Coastal tour bus. I can't wait for the summer because i'm expecting a open top tour bus to come around the corner :rolleyes: