Dublin Bus Network Review

backboiler

A ticket inspector informed me that the expected implementation date for the next set of changes is June. Is that what the "insiders" on here are hearing?

LXFlyer

Well given virtually all of the plans so far affect other areas which have yet to be announced I would think it'll have to be sometime in the summer.

LXFlyer

The 13 is to serve Home Farm Road instead of Griffith Avenue and still serve Poppintree.

qerty

June???
So much "early 2011"!! Unless they intend on having the changes proposed for phase 2 completed by June? As in, start implementing changes for individual areas. For example, the clondalkin changes will affect ballymun,the finglas east/glasnevin area and ballyfermot.

backboiler

lxflyer wrote: »

The 13 is to serve Home Farm Road instead of Griffith Avenue and still serve Poppintree.

Ah yes.
Post edited accordingly.

Devilman40k

so...is the 54A a gonner now too ??

Much reduced frequency on the 83 too I see ....hmmmm glad now I got rid of the old annual ticket, car is far better for those of us living near the city (odd as that may sound!!)

dazberry

CIE wrote: »

So what bus route will now serve Rialto and Bulfin Road, as well? They leaving that to the 17? There used to be three bus routes connecting the city centre with the SCR corridor going through Rialto; now we'll be down to zero, the way this is looking.

I used the 19 a fair bit for access to the SCR and Kelly's corner/Rathmines/Ranelagh and the Green line. This is a right royal PITA because there's nothing to replace it :mad:.

D.

LXFlyer

If I remember correctly from the Cabra map, the 122 will operate along the SCR to Rialto and then along Herberton Road to rejoin the existing route so all may not be lost!

Devilman40k

One thing which amazes me about ND is how ares closer to the city are being a)directed FURTHER away from their chosen destinations or b)have to wait longer for buses.

I can only speak for myself in Crumlin/Kimmage area

18: being extended to Docklands via Sandymount? over East Wall ...does that not sound like a recipe for disaster to anyone else?

19: being completely replaced leaving anyone who wants to travel the length of SCR having to get 17 (hardly reliable) to Dolphins Barn and then get a second bus to continue or to go into CC and then out to wherever they need to go.

19A no major changes so ok

50/56A no longer serving CC

54A - going by 140 alignment this is a gonner(??) leaving no connection between Fortfield and CC or Kimmage Road and Clanbrassil St. Plus 54A was always reliable and fast to/from CC

77 being replaced with (what I believe to be) a far inferior service which will if there is any blockage at all will leave no bus on either side of the Liffey for an hour or more.

83 no longer serving quays church st. BUT serving O'Connell St (which 19A already does!) and at a much reduced service.

121: being taken out completely and replaced in some fashion by 150(which runs full once it gets to Crumlin Hosp)..robbing Crumlin Road/Cork St to pay Clogher Rd/Kildare Rd.

Fintan O'Toole might have been right

or then again maybe I'm reading too much into it all....

Devilman40k

lxflyer wrote: »

If I remember correctly from the Cabra map, the 122 will operate along the SCR to Rialto and then along Herberton Road to rejoin the existing route so all may not be lost!

It will operate the current 122 route ie, turn at Herberton Road jct with Crumlin Road/Sundrve Rd so not Rialto (indeed there is no mention of Rialto on the map)

EricPraline

Yet more stellar "improvements" to the Dublin Bus service, weeks after raising fares.

Route 11/a/b and 19a will in future operate as Route 19.

Could any employee of Dublin Bus care to explain how the 11/a/b "operates as Route 19" when it covers Glasnevin North and Mid-Glasnevin, but no longer covers Drumcondra, Stephen's Green, Leeson Street, Ranelagh, Clonskeagh, UCD, Goatstown, Kilmacud, Stillorgan. Anybody? :mad:

LXFlyer

Devilman40k wrote: »

It will operate the current 122 route ie, turn at Herberton Road jct with Crumlin Road/Sundrve Rd so not Rialto (indeed there is no mention of Rialto on the map)

I do actually think that the plan for the 122 is to serve Rialto and then take the northern part of Herberton Road - that's what I heard some time back. That would make more sense than retaining the current routing.

thomasj

Was just in Clare hall shopping centre and noticed a petition on the 27 "local service" seemed to be doing well, a couple of pages filled

qerty

Could any employee of Dublin Bus care to explain how the 11/a/b "operates as Route 19" when it covers Glasnevin North and Mid-Glasnevin, but no longer covers Drumcondra, Stephen's Green, Leeson Street, Ranelagh, Clonskeagh, UCD, Goatstown, Kilmacud, Stillorgan. Anybody? :mad:[/QUOTE]

As far as I know, The north side section of the 11/a/b is being amalgamated with the 19a,but the southside section is being retained. But its not mentioned on the website.

AlekSmart

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Network-Direct/Network-Direct-Phase-2/Finglas-East--Glasnevin--Drumcondra/


That is one very sloppily compiled document,if it can be called that.

Can we have a show of hands on these elements please.

Route 19a will be renamed route 19 and will continue to offer cross city connections with improved peak frequencies. It will operate via Glasnevin Drive and St. Pappin’s Road and will be extended to the Charlestown Shopping Centre offering improved connections for customers.

Or is it.......

Route 83 and 19 will be combined and will be renamed Route 83. It will be more direct in the Finglas area will operate via Western Way and O’Connell Street significantly improving journey times for our customers

So the 19A first becomes the 19 before being magically transformed into....the...83....or am I missing some important hidden element here ?


Ah..here it is....

Route 11/a/b and 19a will in future operate as Route 19.....

But only until the 19 becomes the....83....yes..no...maybe..??? :rolleyes:

This stuff is now well beyond lunacy....yet once again senior Dublin Bus managerial figures appear unconcerned at yet another customer`s response to their wonderful plan...

Quote Devilman40K: Much reduced frequency on the 83 too I see ....hmmmm glad now I got rid of the old annual ticket, car is far better for those of us living near the city (odd as that may sound!!)

CIE

AlekSmart wrote: »

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Network-Direct/Network-Direct-Phase-2/Finglas-East--Glasnevin--Drumcondra/


That is one very sloppily compiled document,if it can be called that.

Can we have a show of hands on these elements please.

Route 19a will be renamed route 19 and will continue to offer cross city connections with improved peak frequencies. It will operate via Glasnevin Drive and St. Pappin’s Road and will be extended to the Charlestown Shopping Centre offering improved connections for customers.

Or is it.......

Route 83 and 19 will be combined and will be renamed Route 83. It will be more direct in the Finglas area will operate via Western Way and O’Connell Street significantly improving journey times for our customers

So the 19A first becomes the 19 before being magically transformed into....the...83....or am I missing some important hidden element here ?

Ah..here it is....

Route 11/a/b and 19a will in future operate as Route 19.....

But only until the 19 becomes the....83....yes..no...maybe..??? :rolleyes:

This stuff is now well beyond lunacy

I thought that we had hit the "beyond lunacy" bit by merging the 27 and 77. I kinda bit my lip about the 40/78A merger, and my fists were clenched when I read about the 13 going to Clondalkin (because I recall a time when DB regarded the 13 going to Palmerston Park as too long of a route, or so they told me via an bpost leictreonach a few years back when I contacted them about the creation of the 13B)...and now we have the 128 going to Scholarstown and the 140 heading to Ellensborough via Killinarden. (Is this the same kind of thinking that makes Rathmines disappear in the timetable, with only the Swan Centre existing in its place?)

Until I read the map, I thought that the 19 was going to run to Stannaway Avenue via the current route 83, which would have meant a confusing meet between 19 and 19A at the junction of Lower Kimmage Road and Sundrive Road/Larkfield Avenue.

I'm still wondering what's happening to the 11/A/B. Will those routes be cut back to the city centre on the south side? That's kinda antithetic to the great purposes of Network Direct, I would have thought...? Hmm, maybe they can finally create the missing Route 141 and run from Swords to Kilmacud or something, and the 41 can run from Swords Manor to Belfield, and maybe the next domino to fall will be the 43 to Tallaght via the current 54A; eventually we can consolidate the 130 and 150 so you can go from Rossmore to Dollymount via Kildare Road/Clogher Road or something.

I'm surprised that DB hasn't looked into creating a whole mass of trolleybus routes as well, what with the "carbon tax" making the fuel prices so exorbitant, and that on top of the oil prices going up due to the trouble in the North African and Mideastern countries.

So, is this the end of bus service to Toberburr as well? I don't see either the 40A or 40B on the map. The 40D should have its own un-affixed bus route number. (They aren't using the old numbers 34 or 35 right now.) And there will definitely be no bus service on Griffith Avenue, in spite of the fact that it has had continuous bus service for many decades, even with the 11/A/B running parallel on Home Farm Road to the old 36/A/B...? And no more service to the Sillogue and Shangan loops, which were purpose-built for buses?

Not sure if there's enough aspirin in the world to cure the cephalgia this will cause. And people were just getting used to endless alpha suffixes too.

SparkyTech

This is the most ill concieved plan of ND I have seen to date.

What are they doing with the 19/19a and 83? And removing the 11 is just asking for trouble :eek:

My favourite quote from their page however:

Route 4 now operates with low floor double deck buses offering increased comfort levels and reliability for our customers

So cutting a bus service by 33% on weekday service, removing the long bendy buses that faciliated the large crowds this service used to transport the masses and replacing it with a shiny standard double decker is supposed to enhance our comfort? Where does reliability fit in to the picture here?

WBrazel

This is a very severe cutback in my opinion and I'd agree with Alek that it is poorly worded.

The routes appear to be as follows:

Route 19: Charlesland Shopping Centre, North Road, Jamestown Road, Sycamore Road, Grove Road, Glasnevin Avenue, Benevin Road, Benevin Drive, Glasnevin Avenue, Delville Road, St. Pappin's Road, Ballymun Road, St. Mobhi Road, then as per current 19A to Limekiln Avenue.

So basically the 19A extended to Charlesland with a minor ammendment to serve Grove Road instead of McKee Road. Then via St. Pappin's Road to replace the 11. Frequency off-peak (which generally means daytime) of 20mins. Represents about a 25% reduction in 19a frequency.

Its also a further cut for DCU. So compared to 6 months ago, daytime frequency will be down by roughly 40% with the loss of buses on the 4, 19a and the complete loss of the 11s. Saturday and Sunday on the 4 have been further decimated, which could be a pattern for new 19 and 13.

Route 83: Charlesland Shopping Centre, North Road, Jamestown Road, McKee Road, Clune Road, Glasannon Road, Griffith Road, Griffith Parade, Glasannon Road, Ballygal Road East, Glasnevin Hill, then as per 19 to D'olier Street, then as 83 to Stanaway Avenue.

So basically a merged 19 and 83 extended to Charlesland. No buses up McKee Avenue into Finglas Village, no buses around Ballygal and Tolka Estates, except for a wasteful veer into Griffith Parade. Taking core routes out of estates is somewhat positive, however, they still retain the Sycamore Road instead of just routing it down Jamestown Road/McKee Avenue, providing a closer stop for Finglas Village.

Also base off-peak frequency is every 30mins, which represents a 50% reduction. Factored in that the 19 as it stands is cancelled, this then becomes a 71% reduction in buses travelling in this area.

Route 140:

Ikea, St. Margaret's Road via Lanesborough and Charlesland Shopping Centre to Lidl and current routing to St. Stephen's Green, then Earlsfort Terrace, Adelaide Road, Rathmines Road, then as per 65B to Killinarden Heights, then as per 54A to Ellensborough/Kiltipper.

This route avoids the Jamestown Road area north of the present 19 terminus, which is a major base of customer. For some it will be a long-ish walk to eith St. Margaret's Road or the proposed 19/83. This could be somewhat minimised by putting stops closer to the roundabout on Jamestown Road but I doubt we'll see that.

The people of Finglas must really need to get to Rathmines, as they now have two routes. I believe in cross city connections, but why do the same places get connected. Donnycarney in the review will also have two services to Rathmines. Rathmines is the place to be supposedly.

Base off-peak frequency is every 20mins, so about half its present frequency.

So a lot of reductions. Not so much talk about that, but you'll be happy to know that Route 4 is now low floor according to the literature. Of course it has been since its introduction 6 years ago. Ah well when you destroying things in the present, its best to focus on the successes of the past.

In terms of Tallaght the 140 route is interesting. The 54A to Kiltipper is gone, one would wonder if that would be the whole route. With a 20min frequency between Terenure and Tallaght, is there really a need for the 49 to also go via Terenure. One wonders whether this will be routed via the KCR.

The 65 will probably continue as is, so that leaves the 77A and 56A. The 77A could be the Killinarden Bus with the 56A dropped?? Only some thoughts.

AlekSmart

CIE wrote: »

I thought that we had hit the "beyond lunacy" bit by merging the 27 and 77......

......I'm still wondering what's happening to the 11/A/B. Will those routes be cut back to the city centre on the south side? That's kinda antithetic to the great purposes of Network Direct, I would have thought...? Hmm,

I'm surprised that DB hasn't looked into creating a whole mass of trolleybus routes as well, what with the "carbon tax" making the fuel prices so exorbitant, and that on top of the oil prices going up due to the trouble in the North African and Mideastern countries......

......And there will definitely be no bus service on Griffith Avenue, in spite of the fact that it has had continuous bus service for many decades, even with the 11/A/B running parallel on Home Farm Road to the old 36/A/B...? And no more service to the Sillogue and Shangan loops, which were purpose-built for buses?......

......Not sure if there's enough aspirin in the world to cure the cephalgia this will cause. And people were just getting used to endless alpha suffixes too.

It really is time to petition Boards management for a Facepalm smiley.

Network Direct is now quite blatently exposed as a corporate restructuring exercise and nowt else.

It`s odd,but I actually believe Dublin Bus would have secured far greater Customer acceptance for this by plainly stating it at the outset.

Instead we have been treated to an endless stream of PR consciousness intent on convincing the sceptics that more is less in the ND world.

As CIE posts,the 11 route plans appear to simply the most bizzare of them all as they appear to blow a very big raspberry right back at Deloitte and their experts who amazingly identified routes such as the proposed "NEW" 11 as duds.

It will be noted that the removal of the 11 is given very little attention on the latest web page,something of particular interest as it`s current and well used North-South alignment is apparently to be surrendered.(To an enterprising Private Operator perhaps ?....food for thought?)

Rather than approach the 11 route in a positive frame of mind and concentrate on improving the core route (CLONSKEAGH-BALLYMUN) the company simply switches off on a route with over a century of continuous operation.

The real problems with the 11 route came with it`s amalgamation with the 62 route many years ago.

Yet now,some 20 years on,we see the 11 being essentially realigned as a 62 yet again..it was`nt a runner then and it ain`t a runner now.

Sadly however the Company,for whatever reasons,have decided to make Network Direct their crusade against the barbarians and are insistent that with enough chutzpah,they can force through this plan.

Now,where is the Asprin shoppe ?

markpb

WBrazel wrote: »

Route 19: Charlesland Shopping Centre, North Road, Jamestown Road, Sycamore Road, Grove Road, Glasnevin Avenue, Benevin Road, Benevin Drive, Glasnevin Avenue, Delville Road, St. Pappin's Road, Ballymun Road, St. Mobhi Road, then as per current 19A to Limekiln Avenue.

Compare the existing route which is a very wide road, no on-street parking and no severe bends with the proposed new route which is a much narrowed road, has tight bends and frequent on-street parking.

How can DB call this an "improvement"?

Its also a further cut for DCU. So compared to 6 months ago, daytime frequency will be down by roughly 40% with the loss of buses on the 4, 19a and the complete loss of the 11s. Saturday and Sunday on the 4 have been further decimated, which could be a pattern for new 19 and 13.

DB will lose a lot of passengers in the long term if they put students off using it as soon as they move to Dublin.

Typical network cuts: same ****, different routes.

backboiler

markpb wrote: »

Compare the existing route which is a very wide road, no on-street parking and no severe bends with the proposed new route which is a much narrowed road, has tight bends and frequent on-street parking.

How can DB call this an "improvement"?
...

The shimmy at the Autobahn to bring the (new) 19 to within sight of the 11 terminus is nothing more than a not-so-subtle "fvck you" to the passengers of the 11 whose route is being thieved. It serves no purpose other than to be able to make the dubious claim that there is still a route serving Wadelai. It will go from a reliable, punctual, fast service to an overcrowded, unpredictable and miserably slow trudge down Mobhi Rd. as far as Doyle's Corner. It can take half an hour to get from the Tolka bridge to Smurfit alone in the mornings and there's no bus lane in that section to speed it up. After that you have the morons parked across the bus lane blocking the turn onto Iona Rd., then the bus lane disappears again in front of Phibsborough SC, where the road narrows to a lane and a quarter with cars and delivery vans trying to make the right turn across traffic into the shopping centre car park. The only comparable section on the 11 route is the pinch at the Cat and Cage.

As I previously said, I live much closer to the current 19 and 83 routes but never get these at peak time because they take fully a half-hour longer than the 11 does, even taking the 10-minute walk to the terminus into account. There's also the bonus of knowing when the bus will leave and that there will be space on it, neither of which will be a given with this route 19 proposal.

As it stands I can drive across the city to work in an hour (on the far south-side) and 10 minutes. My usual bus and Luas combination takes about an hour and 25 minutes. When this increases to the two hour mark I will be demanding a refund for my new annual ticket due to the withdrawal of the service for which I paid. I will switch to driving via the M50, which takes 25 minutes.
At this point I would half expect the gobsh!tes to claim that I was getting better value for money now than before because I get to spend more time on the bus.

LXFlyer

While there is frustration obviously here the reality is that the company cannot afford to keep the current network operating. It is as simple as that. People need to realise that there are going to have to be some cuts (some worse than others).

This process from what I can see is a combination of getting at least one direct route per corridor at a high frequency and then combining other routes which will be at a lower frequency, and lower than that currently offered.

No one likes any form of cut backs, but face it folks this country is virtually bankrupt and we just cannot afford to keep things as they are.

antoinolachtnai

There are two ways (at least) to fix that, apart from cutting services.

Cut cost per vehicle mile

Increase ridership through operating a higher quality service.

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

No one likes any form of cut backs, but face it folks this country is virtually bankrupt and we just cannot afford to keep things as they are.

Cutbacks are perfectly understandable considering the circumstances but diverting buses from main roads to narrower roads in housing estates will only slow down the journey and drive more people away from the service as it degrades.

My local route (17a) was diverted from a 1km straight route along a newly constructed bus-lane with no on-street parking to a set of roads with 90 degree bends through residential housing estates, on-street parking, no access to bus stops and the time black hole that is Beaumont hospital. I've stopped using it and when my (fifth) annual bus+luas ticket expires, I won't be renewing it or using DB again.

scarlet_mandy

So........just to be clear the 11/a will not be serving Drumcondra as in its current route, past the Skylon and then turning?

And the 140 is no longer serving Wilton Terrace/Leeson Street?

Well thats 2 of my main busses cancelled out so

LXFlyer

scarlet_mandy wrote: »

So........just to be clear the 11/a will not be serving Drumcondra as in its current route, past the Skylon and then turning?

And the 140 is no longer serving Wilton Terrace/Leeson Street?

Well thats 2 of my main busses cancelled out so

The 11/a/b will no longer serve the northside as at present. However, the 13 will now cover the existing 11 route from the stop outside DCU via Homefarm Road and Drumcondra as far as College Green.

The 140 will still serve St Stephen's Green and Earlsfort Terrace. That's barely a 5 minute walk from Wilton Terrace.

EricPraline

lxflyer wrote: »

This process from what I can see is a combination of getting at least one direct route per corridor at a high frequency and then combining other routes which will be at a lower frequency, and lower than that currently offered.

No one likes any form of cut backs, but face it folks this country is virtually bankrupt and we just cannot afford to keep things as they are.

I don't think anybody here is naive with respect to the state of the public finances. However, it galls to hear Dublin Bus refer to "improvements", "realignments" and one service "replacing" another service when they share only a fraction of the same route.

Dublin Bus is cutting routes, reducing frequency, and increasing fares. At least they could honest about this, instead of hiding it opaquely beyond the "Network Direct" banner. They could also do a far better job of communicating the changes to the public.

Many of the routes discussed here are high volume routes covering areas with a few KMs of the city centre, serving hospitals, universities and schools. If DB won't maintain the routes, then hopefully the market will be opened to private operates who will do so. In the meantime many of us will just resort to using the car, leading to a further deterioration in DB's finances.

LXFlyer

EricPraline wrote: »

I don't think anybody here is naive with respect to the state of the public finances. However, it galls to hear Dublin Bus refer to "improvements", "realignments" and one service "replacing" another service when they share only a fraction of the same route.

Dublin Bus is cutting routes, reducing frequency, and increasing fares. At least they could honest about this, instead of hiding it opaquely beyond the "Network Direct" banner. They could also do a far better job of communicating the changes to the public.

Many of the routes discussed here are high volume routes covering areas with a few KMs of the city centre, serving hospitals, universities and schools. If DB won't maintain the routes, then hopefully the market will be opened to private operates who will do so.

I don't disagree with that one iota, communication has been a consistent problem since the year dot with Dublin Bus. This announcement could have been phrased far better. Where a service is being cut back I think honesty is the best policy.

However some people here seem to think that the network shouldn't change at all or frequencies be adjusted when buses are going around half empty. For example most times I see an 83 coming along the Quays there's very few on board - there might be at peak times, but there certainly aren't outside of that. Can that be sustained? No it can't. Difficult choices have to be made. And some people need to realise that.

LXFlyer

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

There are two ways (at least) to fix that, apart from cutting services.

Cut cost per vehicle mile

Increase ridership through operating a higher quality service.

I don't disagree with that but there are some routes that do go around with very few passengers and could (given the fall off in passenger numbers) be merged with other routes quite easily while causing minimum disruption.

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

Cutbacks are perfectly understandable considering the circumstances but diverting buses from main roads to narrower roads in housing estates will only slow down the journey and drive more people away from the service as it degrades.

My local route (17a) was diverted from a 1km straight route along a newly constructed bus-lane with no on-street parking to a set of roads with 90 degree bends through residential housing estates, on-street parking, no access to bus stops and the time black hole that is Beaumont hospital. I've stopped using it and when my (fifth) annual bus+luas ticket expires, I won't be renewing it or using DB again.

But how many people use it to/from the hospital now? It may not suit you, but perhaps it does suit other people?

There are 44 departures serving the hospital in one direction and 48 in the other. Do we know if no one gets on/off there on any of them? Given (from reading other posts you've made here) you're going to/from work it's unlikely that you can honestly answer that as you (like most of us) would only ever use 5 or 6 specific departures with any degree of regularity.

And this is the tough balance to strike with orbital services - no two people's journeys are often the same. To be fair they've tried to link two hospitals with local communities on the route with a reasonably decent frequency service, something that wasn't there before.

You are never going to please everyone when you change a network - what suits some will not suit others.