Dublin Bus Network Review

AlekSmart

Is the 140 being merged with the 54A?

Yes Gerty it is,however this only emerged at the last ND meeting after the Unions had previously been advised that the 54A would not be seeing any changes for some 12 months...

Thomasj: Okay so can i clear this up I am confused by the 19 changes

It`s ok Thomasj,you`re not alone in that.

Even in grammatical terms alone the Web Page outlining the Glasnevin/Drumcondra ND changes is something to wonder at....a certainty for the Plain English award it is not.

Reading through it,we seem to be about to give names to our Network Directed routes as opposed to numbers.... :rolleyes:

But confusion is ok Thomasj...it shows you`re human

dazberry

thomasj wrote: »

Okay so can i clear this up I am confused by the 19 changes

AlekSmart wrote: »

It`s ok Thomasj,you`re not alone in that.

It's meant to be confusing, so to disguise the complete removal of the old 19, under the guise of it being merged with the tweaked 83. I have emailed them specially about the route, and asked for clarification - although it's seems pretty clear to me

D.

Stevek101

Its hardly confusing.

19 is going in with the 83
19a is being renamed the 19.

Easy.

thomasj

So true it nearly makes you think they are making it up as they go along!

Was just thinking, taking youback to pre-cityswift days, we had the crosscutting routes 3,10,11,11a,13,16,16a,19,19a,22,22a did I miss anything?

The only routes that will exist from that existing list will be the 19 and the 22 neither retains their existing routing and the 22 was renumbered.

Its safe to say that the deloite report didn't contemplate the merges happening. It certainly didn't contemplate the 10/39/46a merges!

So considering the fate of the existing crosscutting routes and the merges happening, were they wrong then or are they wrong now?

AlekSmart

thomasj wrote: »

So true it nearly makes you think they are making it up as they go along!......
.......Its safe to say that the deloite report didn't contemplate the merges happening. It certainly didn't contemplate the 10/39/46a merges!

So considering the fate of the existing crosscutting routes and the merges happening, were they wrong then or are they wrong now?

Thomasj,I rather fear that when one secures the key of an executive washroom the concept of being "wrong" ceases to be a concern.

This is a given in most large organizations and particularly,administrations.

There is quite some evidence to suggest that the Network Direct Team got some rather essential elements of their plan very WRONG indeed.

Yet initially,the word from inside the locked washroom door was that the virtual collapse of entire sectors of the Companys previously performing routes was the fault of "a half-dozen messers" whom of course just happened to be....Drivers.

In my opinion,Network Direct as a concept offers some future for the Company,but only if it`s scope as a concept is either broadened to include the assorted administrative bodies who serve to control the environment Dublin bus operate within....OR....Network Direct`s scope is narrowed to involve only routes where Dublin Bus IS in full possession of the necessary infrastructure to offer badly required improvements......Who`ll make the call.....?

Back to you in the executive washroom,Thomasj........:D

AlekSmart

Stevek101 wrote: »

Its hardly confusing.

19 is going in with the 83
19a is being renamed the 19.

Easy.

Peasy.....

Verbatim from here....

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Network-Direct/Network-Direct-Phase-2/Finglas-East--Glasnevin--Drumcondra/

Route 19a will be renamed route 19 and will continue to offer cross city connections with improved peak frequencies. It will operate via Glasnevin Drive and St. Pappin’s Road and will be extended to the Charlestown Shopping Centre offering improved connections for customers.

Route 83 and 19 will be combined and will be renamed Route 83. It will be more direct in the Finglas area will operate via Western Way and O’Connell Street significantly improving journey times for our customers

Route 83 and 19 will be combined and called Route 83. It will access the city centre via Western Way and O’Connell Street improving journey times and also improving accessibility to key city centre destinations.

Route 11/a/b and 19a will in future operate as Route 19. It will operate from Charlestown Shopping Centre serving Beneavin Road, Glasnevin Avenue, St. Pappin’s Road, Ballymun Road, St. Mobhi Road and Phibsboro to the City Centre. It will continue to operate its current alignment on the South of the City connecting the Finglas East area with South Great George’s Street, Harold’s Cross and Kimmage

I`m sticking with the Jesuitical explanation....;)

thomasj

AlekSmart wrote: »

Peasy.....

Verbatim from here....

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Network-Direct/Network-Direct-Phase-2/Finglas-East--Glasnevin--Drumcondra/

It looks nice and easy until you realise that the current 19 existed beyond Kelly's corner

One of the key problems here seems to be the failure of the network direct team has failed to state the bad news

No doubt the busstops in the rialto area will be plastered with network direct posters on the day it happens rather than a notice that the 19 no longer serves there

thomasj

AlekSmart wrote: »

Thomasj,I rather fear that when one secures the key of an executive washroom the concept of being "wrong" ceases to be a concern.

This is a given in most large organizations and particularly,administrations.

There is quite some evidence to suggest that the Network Direct Team got some rather essential elements of their plan very WRONG indeed.

Yet initially,the word from inside the locked washroom door was that the virtual collapse of entire sectors of the Companys previously performing routes was the fault of "a half-dozen messers" whom of course just happened to be....Drivers.

In my opinion,Network Direct as a concept offers some future for the Company,but only if it`s scope as a concept is either broadened to include the assorted administrative bodies who serve to control the environment Dublin bus operate within....OR....Network Direct`s scope is narrowed to involve only routes where Dublin Bus IS in full possession of the necessary infrastructure to offer badly required improvements......Who`ll make the call.....?

Back to you in the executive washroom,Thomasj........:D

Haha one can only dream to be a cie executive!

No doubt, they have done a dogs dinner of the network direct but they are given some real choice which is a good thing. No doubt this opinion will change because of the long waits for drivers in the city centre!

Devilman40k

AlekSmart wrote: »

Yes Gerty it is,however this only emerged at the last ND meeting after the Unions had previously been advised that the 54A would not be seeing any changes for some 12 months...

So then....54A IS a gonner....and now there is no direct link between Kimmage and Tallaght...unless you are prepared to do the following....

get (future)140 to Rathmines and 83 to Kimmage

OR get 27 to Walkinstown and 19 onward ...in a way that defeats the purpose of Network Direct or simplification of the network! Or to get to Limekiln Ave from Tallaght requires bus to Spawell followed by walk to 150. It also seems that areas which are NOT well serviced by Luas or Rail are taking a larger hit in services...(or am I being paranoid)

in all cases it will cost MORE and take LONGER to get where you want to go!

KD345

Devilman40k wrote: »

now there is no direct link between Kimmage and Tallaght...

The plans for Crumlin, Kimmage, Templeogue and Tallaght have still to be announced.

LXFlyer

thomasj wrote: »

It looks nice and easy until you realise that the current 19 existed beyond Kelly's corner

One of the key problems here seems to be the failure of the network direct team has failed to state the bad news

No doubt the busstops in the rialto area will be plastered with network direct posters on the day it happens rather than a notice that the 19 no longer serves there

Devilman40k wrote: »

So then....54A IS a gonner....and now there is no direct link between Kimmage and Tallaght...unless you are prepared to do the following....

get (future)140 to Rathmines and 83 to Kimmage

OR get 27 to Walkinstown and 19 onward ...in a way that defeats the purpose of Network Direct or simplification of the network! Or to get to Limekiln Ave from Tallaght requires bus to Spawell followed by walk to 150. It also seems that areas which are NOT well serviced by Luas or Rail are taking a larger hit in services...(or am I being paranoid)

in all cases it will cost MORE and take LONGER to get where you want to go!

To be fair the plans for Crumlin/SCR, Walkinstown, Greenhills, Tallaght, Templeogue, Kimmage, Rathfarnham, Ranelagh, Dundrum, Ballinteer and indeed the Swords Road on the northside have yet to be announced.

From the face of it the company appear to be doing all the consultations before any further implementations which to my mind is a good thing. So I would imagine that it won't be too long before we find out.

I would imagine that some service will be re-routed to cover the Willington/Templeville/Fortfield areas if (as it would appear) the 54a is being replaced by the 140.

To assume nothing will operate via that area is making an awful lot of assumptions. As yet there have been few (if in fact any) areas that have been left with no service (or at the very least a service within a short walk) as a result of the changes.

AlekSmart

Devilman40k wrote: »

. .......It also seems that areas which are NOT well serviced by Luas or Rail are taking a larger hit in services...(or am I being paranoid)

In all cases it will cost MORE and take LONGER to get where you want to go!

That is an interesting,far from paranoid observation Devilman40k,and one which might just merit some investigation.

The ND "Improvements" for Ballymun/Finglas/Drumcondra/Glasnevin would appear to revolve around attempts to restructure scheduled services to cope with a substantial reduction in Bus numbers.

It could be argued that removing any buses from the areas of DB activities where it is the sole Public Transport provider is somewhat anti-social and most certainly not a customer friendly gesture.

The route 11 "Improvements" are a stark illustration of this principle with the abandonment of a fully Bus-Prioritized alignment stretching from O Connell St virtually unimpeded to DCU Ballymun,with no other Public Transport mode available.

Yet,in the rarefied atmosphere now prevailing in the Network Direct Office,retaining the 11 route to operate parallell to the Luas Green line (Which has quite comprehensively reduced the 11`s loadings since its inception) along a non-Bus Prioritized routing is somehow seen as being of some commercial benefit to Dublin Bus ?

dfx-

lxflyer wrote: »

The project in my view as I outlined above is a combination of putting direct routes onto each corridor and then eliminating duplications. By doing the latter they reduce costs. And of course you don't cut costs beyond a point where revenue starts to fall.

I'm not sure dfx where you are seeing cutbacks in the 51b/c - a 10 minute peak and 12 minute off-peak service is the same if not better than at present. Some routes are getting increases in service.

My comments re cutbacks were meant in the context that there are certain routes that quite frankly could easily be merged with other services, and that certain posters were suggesting relaunching other withdrawn services that carried no one.

The key to this project is getting the capacity and frequencies right.

The frequencies are dropping because DB don't have the resources to implement their super, longer, arterial routes and still operate the same frequency. What was a reliable 15 minute, entire route operation is now not...less money coming in. You have C/Rd buses operating short 145s but not on the main N11 corridor, the proposed 120 to Ballsbridge sometimes to cover the slaughter of the 4.

The new 13 might say advertise a frequency but what evidence is it based on. Indeed making each bus go to Ballymun and back immediately introduces inherent substantial doubt to whether it can achieve this and that the advertised frequency is pie-in-the-sky. Possibly less money coming in. The 69 will go from very heavy loads as it is to carrying very heavy air. No money coming in...

My point is that routes can be merged, but there are arterial routes that should not have dared to be touched which have been butchered - it's at overkill.

It's not about running times. It's about having enough buses on the route to cover the timetable and the loads and the route in its entirety. DB clearly don't have the desire to put the resources in, but to rather sell RVs and get by with other garages helping out, going private, short, swapping over onto other buses in Donnybrook etc..to this day I have no idea what the 66s and 67 arrangement is. Stand at College Green and see 66s, 66As, 67s go by, some stopping at College Green behind 37s and switching off, some saying Merrion Square, some turning up at the old stops...it is like a magical mystery tour

No resources put in, but less people served by less buses...less money coming in, so even less buses...doom awaits.

AlekSmart

dfx- wrote: »

The frequencies are dropping because DB don't have the resources to implement their super, longer, arterial routes and still operate the same frequency. What was a reliable 15 minute, entire route operation is now not...less money coming in. You have C/Rd buses operating short 145s but not on the main N11 corridor, the proposed 120 to Ballsbridge sometimes to cover the slaughter of the 4. ........

.......It's not about running times. It's about having enough buses on the route to cover the timetable and the loads and the route in its entirety. DB clearly don't have the desire to put the resources in, but to rather sell RVs and get by with other garages helping out, going private, short, swapping over onto other buses in Donnybrook etc......

No resources put in, but less people served by less buses...less money coming in, so even less buses...doom awaits.

That dfx-,is about as accurate a summation of Network Direct as I`ve yet seen.

January

And here we go again with them cancelling the 220 when we were assured during the Blanchardstown changes that it wouldn't be!

liger

lxflyer wrote: »

To be fair the plans for Crumlin/SCR, Walkinstown, Greenhills, Tallaght, Templeogue, Kimmage, Rathfarnham, Ranelagh, Dundrum, Ballinteer and indeed the Swords Road on the northside have yet to be announced.

From the face of it the company appear to be doing all the consultations before any further implementations which to my mind is a good thing. So I would imagine that it won't be too long before we find out.

Really? From the looks of it the company is doing plenty of back door implentation.

Look at the 77 and 54a. the Northside consulations have been done and new routes planned with merges happening with the 27 and 140. This is all nearly ready to go but wait. Nobody on the tallaght side has had a consultation.

The last thing people in tallaght were told was that the 65b and 50 service would be replaced by the 54a. Now the 54a is being replaced by the 140. God help the driver on that new route. one new route replacing at least 4 services and remember this has all been decided with any public consultation on the tallaght side.

AlekSmart

liger wrote: »

Really? From the looks of it the company is doing plenty of back door implentation.......

.......Nobody on the tallaght side has had a consultation.

........ God help the driver on that new route. one new route replacing at least 4 services and remember this has all been decided with any public consultation on the tallaght side.

Yes indeed Liger...as I posted earlier in the thread,a throwaway Managerial comment to a colleague kinda confirmed my earlier long running suspicions re "Public Consultation".

Public Consultation Phase = Public Relations Dept requirement= Window Dressing.

The Network Direct people are highly qualified at what they do and can hardly be expected to take heed of a motley collection of disaffected,antagonistic and vexatious customers........errrr..sorry...EX-Customers.

Tallaght= Luas,and even more = after the new CityWest spur opens....after all people,someone`s got to think of poor oul Jim Mansfields investments..... :P :P :P

thomasj

January wrote: »

And here we go again with them cancelling the 220 when we were assured during the Blanchardstown changes that it wouldn't be!

Where have you been?

They have announced the cancellation of the 220 in the finglas, ballymun and malahide road plans! Which one the cancellation will come in is anyone's guess!

CIE

AlekSmart wrote: »

liger wrote: »

lxflyer wrote: »

To be fair the plans for Crumlin/SCR, Walkinstown, Greenhills, Tallaght, Templeogue, Kimmage, Rathfarnham, Ranelagh, Dundrum, Ballinteer and indeed the Swords Road on the northside have yet to be announced.

From the face of it the company appear to be doing all the consultations before any further implementations which to my mind is a good thing. So I would imagine that it won't be too long before we find out.

Really? From the looks of it the company is doing plenty of back door implentation.

Look at the 77 and 54A. The Northside consulations have been done and new routes planned with merges happening with the 27 and 140. This is all nearly ready to go, but wait. Nobody on the Tallaght side has had a consultation.

The last thing people in Tallaght were told was that the 65B and 50 service would be replaced by the 54A. Now the 54A is being replaced by the 140. God help the driver on that new route. One new route replacing at least four services and remember, this has all been decided without any public consultation on the Tallaght side.

Yes indeed Liger...as I posted earlier in the thread, a throwaway Managerial comment to a colleague kinda confirmed my earlier long running suspicions re "Public Consultation".

Public Consultation Phase = Public Relations Dept requirement = Window Dressing.

The Network Direct people are highly qualified at what they do and can hardly be expected to take heed of a motley collection of disaffected, antagonistic and vexatious customers...errrr...sorry...EX-Customers.

Tallaght = Luas, and even more = after the new CityWest spur opens....after all people, someone's got to think of poor oul Jim Mansfield's investments... :P :P :P

Precedent and history cannot be fought. There's still a right way and a wrong way to do things. Calling PR stunts "public consultation" when the only consultants listened to are the outside ones hired to do their hatchet job is an insult to the public. Imagine all the money saved if they had actually consulted the public? and the type of services that would result instead, i.e. those that would actually get people out of their cars so they would have to worry less about petrol costs and other associated automobile maintenance costs...?

The Irish Small and Medium Enterprises Association estimated back in 2008 that the "direct cost" of traffic congestion was an annual €2.5 billion; this radical rework of the bus network is not geared specifically towards alleviating that, and (combined with fare increases) may even exacerbate it by driving off passengers who will be faced with a completely unfamiliar network of routes, featuring a great deal more new cross-city services that now must fight traffic before they even reach the city centre.

January

thomasj wrote: »

Where have you been?

They have announced the cancellation of the 220 in the finglas, ballymun and malahide road plans! Which one the cancellation will come in is anyone's guess!

I haven't really been following this shambles since the Blanchardstown changes came into effect, noticed they mentioned it in the Finglas one, phone call in the morning to DB...

thomasj

January wrote: »

I haven't really been following this shambles since the Blanchardstown changes came into effect, noticed they mentioned it in the Finglas one, phone call in the morning to DB...

Its a bit of a joke allright

kthnxbai

January wrote: »

I haven't really been following this shambles since the Blanchardstown changes came into effect, noticed they mentioned it in the Finglas one, phone call in the morning to DB...

But does the new 17A not cover the majority of the areas that the 220 used to?

I know that I'm currently served by the 220 (in Finglas) yet I'm not served by the new 17A, but I'm a 10 min walk from it... I would have thought that the majority of areas served by the 220 would be served by the 17A....

Also, the consultation for Finglas is done with now... Although, if I'm correct, they have delayed the implementation due to complaints from residents round here...
So at least you're not the only one complaining about the route changes... mind you, dunno if that means they'll not cancel it...

January

kthnxbai wrote: »

But does the new 17A not cover the majority of the areas that the 220 used to?

I know that I'm currently served by the 220 (in Finglas) yet I'm not served by the new 17A, but I'm a 10 min walk from it... I would have thought that the majority of areas served by the 220 would be served by the 17A....

Also, the consultation for Finglas is done with now... Although, if I'm correct, they have delayed the implementation due to complaints from residents round here...
So at least you're not the only one complaining about the route changes... mind you, dunno if that means they'll not cancel it...

Where I am in Mulhuddart is the first stop of the 220, 17A is at the centre, so you'd have to take a 238 to get to the centre to connect with it. It's not a pain in the grand scheme of things, but a lot of the kids out here go to school in Finglas, mostly the girls to Mater Christi, and it'd be a pain for young kids to try and connect two busses, especially early morning.

The school tried to implement the school kids service by DB a couple of years back but it was a complete disaster with the contractor only turning up when he felt like it, and only in the evening time too, and hardly ever turning up on a Wednesday when they got the half day.

The consultation for Finglas has ended, but we were reassured in the Blanchardstown stages that it wasn't going to be cut, with them now sneakily bringing it in for the Finglas East changes, which run til April 2nd, so I'll ring in the morning.

LXFlyer

liger wrote: »

Really? From the looks of it the company is doing plenty of back door implentation.

Look at the 77 and 54a. the Northside consulations have been done and new routes planned with merges happening with the 27 and 140. This is all nearly ready to go but wait. Nobody on the tallaght side has had a consultation.

The last thing people in tallaght were told was that the 65b and 50 service would be replaced by the 54a. Now the 54a is being replaced by the 140. God help the driver on that new route. one new route replacing at least 4 services and remember this has all been decided with any public consultation on the tallaght side.

Look if they put up every area at once the office would be deluged and I don't think anyone would get a response of any form, nor would they be able to read all the responses. Far better to put the plans up one area after another and then review the responses. I very much doubt that anything will happen until after the people in Tallaght or the rest of south Dublin get to have their say too.

With anything like this someone has to come up with a starting point for a revised network and then let people have their say - from where I'm sitting that's what the company appear to be doing.

LXFlyer

Just to clarify what was said about the 220 from the Blanchardstown review:

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Network-Direct/Network-Direct-Phase-1/Blanchardstown/Blanchardstown-FAQs/

Will Route 220 continue to operate?
Yes. The timetable will be revised but the route will remain unchanged. As part of our consultation in the Finglas area revised proposals for route 220 will be examined.

I'd read that as saying it would be reviewed again.

AlekSmart

lxflyer wrote: »

Just to clarify what was said about the 220 from the Blanchardstown review:

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Network-Direct/Network-Direct-Phase-1/Blanchardstown/Blanchardstown-FAQs/


I'd read that as saying it would be reviewed again.

Yes that would be my reading of it too Lxflyer,however,in common with most modern DB Press Release material,the wording is always somewhat ambiguous,with wriggle-room built in as a given....:o

There is also the possibility of some deckchair rearranging within the Network Direct office as some stars shine ever brighter whilst others wane........;)

liger

lxflyer wrote: »

Far better to put the plans up one area after another and then review the responses.

With anything like this someone has to come up with a starting point for a revised network and then let people have their say - from where I'm sitting that's what the company appear to be doing.

But if they are putting up plans, example the 140

"Route 140 will be extended and offer a full cross city option for customers to Rathmines, Terenure, Tallaght (The Square) and Kiltipper. It will operate on its current alignment in the Finglas area"

And know very well that they are going to change it when the Tallaght phase is announced then arent they just misleading people!

As for the start point, i really think there would have been less confussion if they had of came out with a brand new network all at once. Announced it a month before the summer school holidays and implemented it one week into them. Instead its been dragged out and will last about a year.

Peadar_85

qerty wrote: »

The 19a is not turning into the nineteen. It is merely being renumbered the 19, while maintaining the 19a (albeit slightly modified) routing.

The current route 19 is essentially being removed by its amalgamation with the 83. Hence the renewed availability of the number 19, which allows for the removal on the alpha suffix on the current 19a

It's a damn raw deal for commuters around Glasnevin village to go from 3 bus routes to just 1...and at that the 83 is only going to run every 15 mins at peak and every 30 mins off peak. Sure that's a complete farce

CIE

Peadar_85 wrote: »

It's a damn raw deal for commuters around Glasnevin village to go from 3 bus routes to just 1...and at that the 83 is only going to run every 15 mins at peak and every 30 mins off peak. Sure that's a complete farce

I'm still wondering how people in Tolka Estate are supposed to cope. The 19's northbound route covered about 1.5 kilometres (northbound; 1.2 km southbound) between the junction of Old Finglas Road and Ballygall Road East through the estate and back out to the junction of Ballygall Road East and Fitzmaurice Road. Now you'll have that 1.5 km without bus service, as things appear; not sure if the cursory mention of "Griffith Parade" on the 83 means that the bus will be taken off Glasanaon Road to run on Griffith Parade and Griffith Road, but it still cuts off that one square kilometre. Let 'em walk and eat cake at the same time...?

I often used to wonder if the 13 (later 11) would have been viable if extended west of Wadelai Park/St. Pappin's Road via the western part of Hillcrest Park towards Ballygall Road East and Beneavin Road into Finglas. Would have been a more direct route than the "new 19" via Beneavin Road, Beneavin Drive, Glasnevin Avenue, Glasnevin Drive, Delville Road and St Pappin Road, and would have allowed the 19 to run via Beneavin Drive and Willow Park Road to serve the full length of Sycamore Road...but they don't hire passengers (or potential passengers) as consultants, you see.

Peadar_85

They're saying their "consultation period" is open until April 2nd and to send comments via e-mail to networkdirect@dublinbus.ie so I guess that's our only forum. I've already expressed my views to them not that I'm expecting them to pay any attention. Maybe if enough people shout loud enough.......