Dublin Bus Network Review

A2000

Ah no dont hide. theres always one person who misses the point. The elderly of our communities do not parade up and down outside the dublin bus offices for the good of thier health. The clue is in the work 'elderly'. Blanch already has a link to Tallaght through 76a and 239 from which they can connect to Ballyfermot 76's. There has never been a high demand for these services. No point taking buses on a busy route from one area to increase the service in another. this would be almost pallatable if these people could transfer from the 40 to the 76 with one ticket. The fact that they cant shows what a money making racket network direct is. This exercise only services to double the cost and the time of the journey. And also remember that this is based on the 40 running every 10 mins and the 76 every 20 mins, The 78a is currently at a 7 min frequency and there can be gaps of 30 mins in the morning and then 3 or 4 buses together and this is with the bus coming from town and not Finglas. If this were to happen in the mornings it could take the school children from Ballyfermot going to school in clondalkin up to 1 hour to reach liffey valley. In ordinary circumstances if they waited 10 mins for 40 take 20 mins to liffey valley and wait 20 mins for 76 then 30 mins to tallaght thats 80mins journey time . Its currently 40 mins. The kids could wait on Neilstown road for 76 but no parent will allow this for obvious reasons.. Also bear in mind that they will do the neilstown loop on the 40 and partially on the 76 as well. And same again in the evenings. Twice the cost 4 buses er day twice the journey time is NOT under any circumstances an improvement by anyones standards. DB is well known for not running services properly and there is no indication that this will improve with network indirect. On another point Ballyfermot has struck out in network direct as the 76/a/b is gone the 78a/40 is no more direct and the new 79 is more indirect than it is now. The 78 which was the only saving grace for commuters was cut as it was underutilised due to reliability issues and can reach city in 30 mins in the morning and 40 to liffey valley in the evening. The direct service and the one which actually worked will cease operation. Now thats what I call ridiculous.

BenShermin

Robbie I would think that you are totally wrong regarding the 76. Once again Dublin Bus management have thrown out the ethos of Network Direct by taking a well utilised route and gutting it.

As A2000 has stated, the route has been there for 30 years and as a result Ballyfermot, Clondalkin and Tallaght people have made the choice to work, live and educate themselves along this route.

While they still have the choice to interchange between the 40 and 76, it's not something I nor many people would want to do as the changing point Neilstown Road (the changing point is not actually Liffey Valley btw) is a dreadful place to change and wait for buses as I have explained in an earlier post. Once again I don't mean to offend the area but it is very open to weather elements and awful antisocial behaviour at night. I've been on buses serveral times on Neilstown Road which have been subject to missile attacks.

The route as it stands is very busy along the Ballyfermot strech, but busy is something that the ND team can't comprehend, they can only understand FULL buses, with tens of extra people changing onto already busy 78a/40 services these buses will be full by the time they get to Ballyfermot and thus leave Ballyfermot city centre bound passengers "waiting for the next bus":mad:!

I'd like to suggest that maybe Blanchardstown does not need a link to Tallaght every 20 minutes (they've survived for how long now without one?). Also Ballyfermot doesn't need a link to Tallaght every 20 minutes. I'd suggest a 76 between Tallaght and Blanch and a 76a between Ballyfermot and Tallaght. That would be the best solution for everyone imo.

I'd also like to bring up the fact that you're being disingenuous about the walking distance between Liffey Valley and Ballyfermot. From where I'm living in Ballyfermot to Liffey Valley is a 40 minute walk, my friend has a 50 minute walk to Liffey Valley. You seem to be forgeting that Ballyfermot is quite a large suburb.

robbie_998

BenShermin wrote: »

Robbie I would think that you are totally wrong regarding the 76. Once again Dublin Bus management have thrown out the ethos of Network Direct by taking a well utilised route and gutting it.

As A2000 has stated, the route has been there for 30 years and as a result Ballyfermot, Clondalkin and Tallaght people have made the choice to work, live and educate themselves along this route.

While they still have the choice to interchange between the 40 and 76, it's not something I nor many people would want to do as the changing point Neilstown Road (the changing point is not actually Liffey Valley btw) is a dreadful place to change and wait for buses as I have explained in an earlier post. Once again I don't mean to offend the area but it is very open to weather elements and awful antisocial behaviour at night. I've been on buses serveral times on Neilstown Road which have been subject to missile attacks.

The route as it stands is very busy along the Ballyfermot strech, but busy is something that the ND team can't comprehend, they can only understand FULL buses, with tens of extra people changing onto already busy 78a/40 services these buses will be full by the time they get to Ballyfermot and thus leave Ballyfermot city centre bound passengers "waiting for the next bus":mad:!

I'd like to suggest that maybe Blanchardstown does not need a link to Tallaght every 20 minutes (they've survived for how long now without one?). Also Ballyfermot doesn't need a link to Tallaght every 20 minutes. I'd suggest a 76 between Tallaght and Blanch and a 76a between Ballyfermot and Tallaght. That would be the best solution for everyone imo.

I'd also like to bring up the fact that you're being disingenuous about the walking distance between Liffey Valley and Ballyfermot. From where I'm living in Ballyfermot to Liffey Valley is a 40 minute walk, my friend has a 50 minute walk to Liffey Valley. You seem to be forgeting that Ballyfermot is quite a large suburb.

i do recall being in blanch a while back and did have to get the bus back to clondalkin... waited for a 76 for over 2 hours.... something is needed there !

the best solution would be ballyfermot then blanch but that'll never happen...... i'd say they dont want to do 76 then 76A because of the waiting time for one specific bus to get to blanch.

walking from that bridge just next to B&Q to Iceland in ballyfermot - i did that in 15mins.

CIE

BenShermin wrote: »

Once again Dublin Bus management have thrown out the ethos of Network Direct by taking a well utilised route and gutting it

Thought that gutting well-used routes is the "ethos of Network Direct", such as it was and such as it has manifested itself...? The changes that are useful have been outweighed by the radical changes that are turning the familiar network upside down and creating too many cross-city routes that will get slowed down by being forced through the city centre.

Devilman40k

I would suggest that the routes would not just be slowed down, but that the network itself could be brought to a standstill if anything happens in the City.

SparkyTech

A2000 wrote: »

this would be almost pallatable if these people could transfer from the 40 to the 76 with one ticket. The fact that they cant shows what a money making racket network direct is. This exercise only services to double the cost and the time of the journey.

But you CAN transfer with one ticket. Loads of prepaid rambler options that allow for unlimited journeys and transfers in one day. The Student one at 78e works out at 2.60 per day. Thats less then 1.50 per journey.

BenShermin

SparkyTech wrote: »

But you CAN transfer with one ticket. Loads of prepaid rambler options that allow for unlimited journeys and transfers in one day. The Student one at 78e works out at 2.60 per day. Thats less then 1.50 per journey.

But a good few journeys from Ballyfermot to South Clondalkin are only €1.15.

BenShermin

A2000 wrote: »

The 78 which was the only saving grace for commuters was cut as it was underutilised due to reliability issues and can reach city in 30 mins in the morning and 40 to liffey valley in the evening. The direct service and the one which actually worked will cease operation. Now thats what I call ridiculous.

Indeed, it certainly look like Ballyfermot is really going to experience the "benifits" of Network Direct, just like other areas of the city have:rolleyes:.

There was very good scope under the deloitte principals to offer a fast and efficient service to Ballyfermot and North Clondalkin, helping take cars off the road while at the same time not neglecting the elderly of the area. DB management however have decided to sick to the status quo in this area, while at the same time destroying what little efficiency the status quo has.

The only fast services in to/from Ballyfermot are the 78 and 79a, both which will be scrapped under Network Direct. Probably because they are well utilised and efficient, such qualities have no place in the ND program:rolleyes:.

The 78a as it stands is quite fast between Coldcut and Sarsfield Road, but it then takes a slow sluggish route to the city centre via Inchicore and Kilmainham.

The 79/a as it stands is slow and meandering through Ballyfermot as it serves a lot of the residential areas, it then takes a fast route along Johns Road and the quays.

It would have made sense to have the new 40 (old 78a) not serving Inchicore and Kilmainham and instead serving Johns Road and the quays, effectively knocking 15 to 20mins off the journey to the city. The new 79 could have served Inchicore and Kilmainham instead. Indeed there is lots of scope for such a service as many people along the 79 route have appointments in James's Hospital, and many of the people also enjoy shopping in Thomas Street.

But of course it would have made too much sense to the ND team to have both a fast and a slow bus to Ballyfermot, instead we are left with two buses which are fast in some sections and then slowed down in other sections, effectively meaning slower journey times for ALL! Oh well, at least the network is easier to understand:rolleyes:!!

BenShermin

robbie_998 wrote: »

i do recall being in blanch a while back and did have to get the bus back to clondalkin... waited for a 76 for over 2 hours.... something is needed there !

the best solution would be ballyfermot then blanch but that'll never happen...... i'd say they dont want to do 76 then 76A because of the waiting time for one specific bus to get to blanch.

walking from that bridge just next to B&Q to Iceland in ballyfermot - i did that in 15mins.

I don't see any quality in a Blanch to Tallaght via Ballyfermot service to be honest. The Ballyfermot routing on the existing 76a adds at least 20mins to the journey.

I think splitting the route in two with a 40min frequency from Tallaght to Ballyfermot and the same to Blanch would be the best solution for all concerned.

Another idea which I've always thought about was a route along the M50 from the N11 (Cherrywood maybe?) to Dublin Airport. It would be very easy to introduce bus stops at the M50 interchanges and have steps/lifts down to bus stops on the M50 itself.

It would be the perfect radial route for the city.

A2000

But you CAN transfer with one ticket. Loads of prepaid rambler options that allow for unlimited journeys and transfers in one day. The Student one at 78e works out at 2.60 per day. Thats less then 1.50 per journey.

Yes but thats only if your ticket is value for money. Of course it will be now that people will be using 4 buses daily instead of 2. Currently a 5 day ticket costs 21 euro, so im paying an extra 2.50 for the privilige of prepay. Cash fares in london is 2 pounds. prepay is 90P if I travel on 2 buses a day for 5 days my fares cost 18.50 so im paying an extra 3 euro per week for the privilige of prepay.

Devilman40k

I think you've hit the nail on the head there A2000. All ND seems to be doing (in areas without an alternative) is force customers into using 2/3 routes. The Mrs. is a case point she works in the digital hub and usually got 54a into work plus walk, now the fastest most direct route for her is 2 buses and therefore a higher cost. I can repeat that tale ad infinitum for many of my colleagues/friends who have been adversely affected by these improvements.

CIE

BenShermin wrote: »

The 78a as it stands is quite fast between Coldcut and Sarsfield Road, but it then takes a slow sluggish route to the city centre via Inchicore and Kilmainham

Well, since the original 78A turned around at Cherry Orchard hospital gate, it wasn't so meant to be the "fast route" any further west than that originally. The way the bus routes developed in the 1970s and 1980s confused me to no end; I would have thought that a new bus route towards Coldcut using a more direct route would have been either created through Ballyfermot (possibly continuing on to Clondalkin) or instead have been an extension of route 26 beyond the bus loop on Kennelsfort Road; neither happened. What's worse, the sensible move of creating a bus route running between the city and Ballyfermot running in both directions on Con Colbert Road also never materialised, i.e. until the recent revival of route 78 without the alpha suffix; this should have been a high-frequency route instead of an infrequent route. Also begs the question as to what the demand is for bus service connecting Ballyfermot and Inchicore/Kilmainham anyway? because even when the 78/A/B used to run on Inchicore Road instead of Emmet Road and Grattan Crescent (via Memorial Road and Con Colbert Road both inbound and outbound before the contra-flow bus lane on Sarsfield Road was introduced; picture that), there were more people boarding instead of disembarking on city-bound buses, and vice-versa.

brandodub

BenShermin wrote: »

. It would be very easy to introduce bus stops at the M50 interchanges and have steps/lifts down to bus stops on the M50 itself.

It would be the perfect radial route for the city.

The whole principle of a motorway is that stopping is forbidden unless its an emergency. The M50 however should be utilized as an 'express' corridor now that it has three operating lanes with an auxiliary.

ILBondo

Network direct has betrayed its own principles. Some of the new reviews in tallaght such as the 77a fail to shorten journey times. It makes journey times longer for those living in city west by sending them on a detour through Old Bawn and Tymon North. Why did Dublin bus drop their original proposal to extend the new 27- (which will incorporate the current 77 route) to City west. That is a much more direct and frequent route than an extended 77a.

It seems to be that the quality of ones bus service is based on a Geography Lottery as opposed to demand for a the service. Some parts of tallaght are lucky enough to have their service merged with a high frequency direct north bound service like in the case of the 140 wheras in other areas there is very little change.

The principle of network direct is indeed something to be welcomed, but it seems that in certain areas they have really missed the boat. Unless they make modifications Dublin Bus will be left with an uneven and inadquate bus service.

SandyfordGuy

The next phase of route cuts changes have been announced, the 84x and 184

Firstly the 84X
http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/84x-1/

Seems they have dropped one trip in each direction Monday to Friday

And the 184:
http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/184-Revised-Times/

Frequency on Saturday has dropped to every hour instead of every 45 minutes, whilst Sunday is now every 2 hours rather than every 90 minutes.

Meanwhile DB have started another cycle of the "Cheat on Your car" campaign, with back of buses covered in "Your Car Vs The Bus" which claims the bus wins due to bus lanes.

No doubt after the outstanding success of network direct so far, they will be hoping to continue their current streak of losing gaining customers who are switching.

KD345

darragh16 wrote: »

Its says the 140 and the 65 going down the N81, Will they be bypassing the square, the IT and the Village?

The map has now been corrected to show both the 65 and 140 serving The Square and Tallaght IT.

LXFlyer

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

The next phase of route cuts changes have been announced, the 84x and 184

Firstly the 84X
http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/84x-1/

Seems they have dropped one trip in each direction Monday to Friday

And the 184:
http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/184-Revised-Times/

Frequency on Saturday has dropped to every hour instead of every 45 minutes, whilst Sunday is now every 2 hours rather than every 90 minutes.

Meanwhile DB have started another cycle of the "Cheat on Your car" campaign, with back of buses covered in "Your Car Vs The Bus" which claims the bus wins due to bus lanes.

No doubt after the outstanding success of network direct so far, they will be hoping to continue their current streak of losing gaining customers who are switching.

Actually what is happening is what should have happened months ago in that a timetable that could not actually be delivered reliably is being replaced with one that can.

The running time on the 184 on Saturdays and Sundays (i.e. the time allowed to get from one terminus to another) is being increased from 45 minutes to 1 hour. The route has been suffering poor reliability at weekends and this should result in a more reliable service.

The downside is that the number of buses on the service at weekends has not changed, hence the number of departures has reduced.

What is not on the website is that combined with the changes to the 84x, new driver rosters are being introduced on the 145 which apparently address the running time issues on that route and at last deliver a semblance of a reliable service. The public timetable is not being changed as additional buses are being used at peak times.

dazmetron

lxflyer wrote: »

What is not on the website is that combined with the changes to the 84x, new driver rosters are being introduced on the 145 which apparently address the running time issues on that route and at last deliver a semblance of a reliable service. The public timetable is not being changed as additional buses are being used at peak times.

Well hopefully it will make some sort of difference to the 145. I had thought that things had started to improve since Christmas but in the last 3 - 4 weeks, things have been as bad as ever with 30-40 min waits happening a couple of times a week for a bus heading southbound from "An Lár" in the early evenings. I am getting sick of 145's going past that are terminating in Bray Dart station (As my location suggests, I live in Kilmac so they are of no use to me). It is not too late to return the 145 to the reliable regular service it used to be so I am still hopeful.

Oh and in regards to the 84x / 184 changes, this has been discussed for a while in the Greystones forum
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056177252

BenShermin

brandodub wrote: »

The whole principle of a motorway is that stopping is forbidden unless its an emergency. The M50 however should be utilized as an 'express' corridor now that it has three operating lanes with an auxiliary.

It has already been downgraded to 100kph for some reason, it's no more a motorway than a glorified dual carriageway imo.

backboiler

brandodub wrote: »

The whole principle of a motorway is that stopping is forbidden unless its an emergency. The M50 however should be utilized as an 'express' corridor now that it has three operating lanes with an auxiliary.

Sure isn't there a nearly empty lane to the right of the auxiliary lane anyway? Buses can use that!
You know, the one to the left of the one the cars seemingly must immediately occupy on entry to the main carriageway.

ardmacha

It has already been downgraded to 100kph for some reason, it's no more a motorway than a glorified dual carriageway imo.

What an odd comment. Of course it is a motorway and even more so as it has freeflow junctions.

The M50 however should be utilized as an 'express' corridor now that it has three operating lanes with an auxiliary.

Absolutely. There should be interchange points in the likes of Tallaght and express services along the M50 at peak hours a similar interchange at Sandyford.

patrickbrophy18

ardmacha wrote: »

What an odd comment. Of course it is a motorway and even more so as it has freeflow junctions.



Absolutely. There should be interchange points in the likes of Tallaght and express services along the M50 at peak hours a similar interchange at Sandyford.

You mean something like this?

patrickbrophy18

Regarding the Dublin Bus Network Review in Merrion Road, I have always though that this route would make far more sense than two different routes (8 and 111). The 8 Bus would be restored to its old route alignment between town and Dalkey and extended to Cherrywood from Dalkey and Heuston Station from O'Connell Bridge. This would involve a merge between the 111 and 8. It would assist in connecting Dalkey, Killiney (North-North East) and Sandycove with the Green Luas Line whilst providing Ballybrack with a better town connection and taking in Dun Laoghaire and Blackrock. It may involve scrapping or completely re-routing the 59* if the new 8 (as described in the link) were to be made into an all day service.

* Link to map of route. In fact, the re-routed 59 would take in Mackintosh Park, Rochestown Avenue, Ballybrack and terminate in Cherrywood. It would also provide a more direct connection with Dun Laoghaire and increases the frequency of services going through Monkstown Farm.

qerty

Anybody know anything that came up in the roadshows on Monday,Tuesday and today?

thomasj

Noting the statement on the Bray changes now refers to an updated schedule on 145 although it says it will have no impact on the timetable

Route 145 will have a revised schedule resulting in improved service reliability. Please note there is no change to the current printed timetable.

liger

KD345 wrote: »

The map has now been corrected to show both the 65 and 140 serving The Square and Tallaght IT.

The 140 will "serve" the square on the n81 bypass. DB are putting a stop near that blue footbridge the will be getting a walkthru cut in the fencing. For people heading back up to the kiltipper/killinarden area they will need to drag their weekly shoping over that footbridge and wait on the sean walsh park side of the Dual carraige way.

qerty wrote: »

Anybody know anything that came up in the roadshows on Monday,Tuesday and today?

Was at the meeting yesterday. A lot of rubbish to be honest, the only time the DB guys had an answer for something was when they were telling people they need to get 2 buses. Apart from that the most popular thing out of there mouth was, Complete the comment form and send it to us.

They had no response for removing 3 routes and disconnecting over 2500homes from vital services such as shops, schools, hospitals etc. It was clearly a PR exercise, we showed up, we listened.

When it was pointed out that Sean walsh park would be a dangerous and isolated place to stand at 22:30 for people, the depot guy, fran something, turned around and claimed it wasnt an issue for the meeting and should be taken up with the garda. The ignorance to say that.

Anyway, its clear the only thing that matters is cost cutting. not providing a service and not people.

liger

liger wrote: »

The 140 will "serve" the square on the n81 bypass. DB are putting a stop near that blue footbridge the will be getting a walkthru cut in the fencing.

I have heard that after the meetings DB had in the areas that the 140 will now serve the square, hospital and tallaght village like the 54A currently does.

Maybe i was wrong when i said these meetings were just a PR stunt.

CIE

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Regarding the Dublin Bus Network Review in Merrion Road, I have always though that this route would make far more sense than two different routes (8 and 111). The 8 Bus would be restored to its old route alignment between town and Dalkey and extended to Cherrywood from Dalkey and Heuston Station from O'Connell Bridge. This would involve a merge between the 111 and 8. It would assist in connecting Dalkey, Killiney (North-North East) and Sandycove with the Green Luas Line whilst providing Ballybrack with a better town connection and taking in Dun Laoghaire and Blackrock. It may involve scrapping or completely re-routing the 59* if the new 8 (as described in the link) were to be made into an all day service.

* Link to map of route. In fact, the re-routed 59 would take in Mackintosh Park, Rochestown Avenue, Ballybrack and terminate in Cherrywood. It would also provide a more direct connection with Dun Laoghaire and increases the frequency of services going through Monkstown Farm.

Is this your personal idea? That map looks more like the old route 58.

AlekSmart

liger wrote: »

Was at the meeting yesterday. A lot of rubbish to be honest, the only time the DB guys had an answer for something was when they were telling people they need to get 2 buses. Apart from that the most popular thing out of there mouth was, Complete the comment form and send it to us.

They had no response for removing 3 routes and disconnecting over 2500homes from vital services such as shops, schools, hospitals etc. It was clearly a PR exercise, we showed up, we listened.

When it was pointed out that Sean walsh park would be a dangerous and isolated place to stand at 22:30 for people, the depot guy, Fran something, turned around and claimed it wasnt an issue for the meeting and should be taken up with the garda. The ignorance to say that.

Anyway, its clear the only thing that matters is cost cutting. not providing a service and not people.

The "Public Consultation" events are just that..."Consultation" with nothing promised as a result of whatever consulting occurs.

It appears that similar methodology was employed at the Drumcondra/Glasnevin event in Na Fíanna GAA Club.

The Phase 2 plans are going ahead,as decided,and any alterations will be by way of "Tweaks" as we go along,which does not instill any great level of confidence in the casual observer ?

CIE

Why do they call it "public consultation" when the public is not being consulted and only their opinions are being solicited, quite possibly for the purpose of formulating official excuses...?