Dublin Bus Network Review

thomasj

I've just seen a big ad for a Ford focus covering the back of a bus parked on Talbot street

Are Dublin bus trying to tell us something?

AlekSmart

f®eak s©enery wrote: »

(I'm no longer a daily user of the 4 but I echo the sentiments here, I found it a fantastic route).

All I know is that comments such as Freak Scenery's represent the target we need to be aiming for.

I continue to be greatly concerned at the sheer scale of Customer Anger,Resentment and in far too many cases,Loss which Network Direct's flawed implimentation has resulted in.

Routes such as the 4,145,151 represented a very real improvement on what had gone before in Dublin`s Bus Services and IMO should have been considered for real improvement rather than the argueable elements of Network Direct`s tweaking.

Aard

AlekSmart, did DB consult the drivers at all to see what was going on "on the ground" as it were? It seems more likely that a driver would know more than an office clerk whether the likes of the 4 was a success with passengers or not.

AlekSmart

Aard wrote: »

AlekSmart, did DB consult the drivers at all to see what was going on "on the ground" as it were? It seems more likely that a driver would know more than an office clerk whether the likes of the 4 was a success with passengers or not.

Aard,the internal "consultation" phase of Network Direct was pretty limited and had no direct involvement from Drivers.

Essentially the company produced a series of major revisions to it's operations as it's response to the Deloitte Reports recommendations.

These proposals were reinforced by a substantial amount of "Statistical" information gleaned from the bus Ticket machines and from "surveys" carried out by the company itself and independent data gathering agencies.

In the wake of Network Direct's somewhat less than saloubrious introduction,there is a now a somewhat guarded agreement that the pure "Statistics" based methodology may not have been quite the best way to handle the issue.

As Lxflyer has posted earlier,the phase one element of Network Direct was about as mishandled as you can get in terms of a major public service restructuring.

Hopefully the lessons will have been learned from this and a less gung-ho attitude will prevail from here on in...fingers crossed !

thomasj

Arrived at Aston quay at 22:58 (the 23:00 39 had just left)

Anyway the last 39a the 23:10 has not shown and the 23:30 is now a 39

And as you can see, my first Sunday night getting a bus home and the 30 minute wait is still there

Flukey

lxflyer wrote: »

The only routes that were axed were the 10a, 46b, 46c and 46d. All the others remained (albeit rerouted in the case of the 63 and 84).

...and all that was enough to cause the problem. I was a 46B passenger, and occasionally a 116 passenger. Lots of other former 46B people are now to be seen at that stop and others close by, that would never have been there beforehand, thus adding to the numbers. An empty 10A coming around from the Bowling Alley is no longer there to help. The 11 is not an option for anyone in the Kilmacud/Stillorgan area due to its route being so slow, so its down to the N11 we have to go. Others that have lost services do too at other points along the N11. I use that stop most mornings, typically shortly after 8am, and it is usually crowded and full buses do pass by without stopping, or stop short to drop a few but not take anyone on. There is always an inspector at that stop; the drivers here will know who he is. When there is a big crowd there, or another full bus has just passed without stopping, I often feel like going up to him and asking "Is there any chance of us getting our bus service back?", but so far I've managed to resist the urge to do so.

Pre-Network They Wrecked, on mornings I'd pass the stop while on the 116 there were a lot of people there too. The added crowd has only made it worse. If you come along at the right time, just after a big pick-up, it will seem quiet, but it does fill up very quickly. So if like me, you are there regularly, you'll see it quiet sometimes, but still often see a good crowd at it. The first week was bedlam, but while it has improved since then, the problems, all caused by Network They Wrecked, still remain. Maybe I should ask that inspector my question, even though I know the answer will be "No", so I'll just have to put up with the disaster for now.

AlekSmart, you talk a lot of sense about what the powers that be should do about Network They Wrecked, but do they ever listen to you and your colleagues or are you effectively like the passengers: totally ignored? I suppose they are still thinking "Sure what would passengers and drivers know about bus services? No need to listen to them." After all, I am still awaiting even an acknowledgement, never mind a proper reply, to the e-mail I sent during the first week of Network They Wrecked.

As to the 11 route, bus priority has little impact if there isn't the room for buses to get through the other traffic. Only a full bus lane would work, but that would effectively close off a main artery into the city for other legitimate traffic and there is nowhere else for it to go. I've often looked carefully at the route as I've gone into or out of town on the 11. From Goatstown to Ranelagh it meanders along often widening and narrowing very abruptly, like at the Trimbleston development. That is the main problem. You'd have to lose a lot of cycleway, paths, trees, land, and even gardens to do it and that ain't going to happen. You may be able to improve it, but never solve it. Getting faster to the next bottleneck will just frustrate not placate passengers.

qerty

thomasj wrote: »

Arrived at Aston quay at 22:58 (the 23:00 39 had just left)

Anyway the last 39a the 23:10 has not shown and the 23:30 is now a 39

And as you can see, my first Sunday night getting a bus home and the 30 minute wait is still there

Im sorry Thomasj, but thats the new timetable? The last 39a of the day is a 39. It leaves UCD at 23:10 and departs aston quay at 23:30. There is no departure at 23:30 on sundays. As for the 23:00 39 -it does not exist anymore. The last 39 on sundays is at 22:45.
Chances are you just missed it.

So the timetables were correct in this instance.

devnull

qerty wrote: »

The last 39a of the day is a 39. It leaves UCD at 23:10 and departs aston quay at 23:30. There is no departure at 23:30 on sundays.

Maybe I'm missing something but:
- The 39a Operates from UCD Belfield to Ongar
- The 39 operates from Baggot Street to Ongar

No wonder people are confused having the last service of the day, that actually appears on the 39a AND 39 timetables, is actually a 39 that comes from Belfield, which people would logically think would be a 39a as every other bus from Belfield on the route is.

Whilst I see what you are saying, just by having a 39a that actually operates as a 39 is asking for trouble, and it is a shame that Dublin Bus, who after all are supposed to be making timetables easier to understand has as such in the timetable.

LXFlyer

qerty wrote: »

Im sorry Thomasj, but thats the new timetable? The last 39a of the day is a 39. It leaves UCD at 23:10 and departs aston quay at 23:30. There is no departure at 23:30 on sundays. As for the 23:00 39 -it does not exist anymore. The last 39 on sundays is at 22:45.
Chances are you just missed it.

So the timetables were correct in this instance.

thomasj is fairly obviously referring to the departure times from Aston Quay!

So he is correct.

qerty

lxflyer wrote: »

thomasj is fairly obviously referring to the departure times from Aston Quay!

So he is correct.

Are you sure? There are no staged timetables on the Dublin Bus website for the 39/a service? If they are no longer in use for this route then the timetable on Aston quay is the Belfield to Ongar timetable. In which case I am correct.

LXFlyer

qerty wrote: »

Are you sure? There are no staged timetables on the Dublin Bus website for the 39/a service? If they are no longer in use for this route then the timetable on Aston quay is the Belfield to Ongar timetable. In which case I am correct.

They were there but have disappeared!

The times that thomasj is quoting are the ones that were on the website for Aston Quay. However, it should be pointed out that they are guide times only.

thomasj

The times I am referring to are the times at the busstop. The Aston quay busstop timetable contains the Aston quay departures.

thomasj

lxflyer wrote: »

However, it should be pointed out that they are guide times only.

isnt this false advertising then

from the original pr for commencement of the new services back last year

All routes will now have stop-specific departure times at selected locations for e.g. route 39a will have specific departure times from Blanchardstown Centre making it easier to plan your journey. Stop-specific timetables will be available to download as pdfs and are located at the top of the timetable pages on this site.

LXFlyer

thomasj wrote: »

isnt this false advertising then

from the original pr for commencement of the new services back last year

That's another point - but certainly from my experience it is only those departures that have a specific note in the main timetable that hold to those exact times.

Devilman40k

I dont know if this has been pointed out elsewhere but...

They managed to sneaked this under the radar....nice of them not to make too much noise that while services are being butchered they want you to pay more !

SparkyTech

This is beyond a joke. Just when i was beginning to like Dublin Bus for improving my 14 they jack up my monthly fare by 4 quid.

FridaysWell

So now they decide to put up the pre paid ticket fares? Do they have any reason at all to justify this? Do they give such a reason? As a company that provides a very important Publice Service, how can they be allowed to raise their fares every couple of months without anyone saying anything???

The feckin student 30 Day ticket was increased to €78 in September/October... Now they are going to increase it again? **** off dublin bus, F U C K OFF... Excuse me for putting it so coarsely but I'm kinda sick of being fuked around by Dublin Bus, the Luas, the Govt in general...

Gonna get my full license and a car over the summer and its goodbye bus for me...

SparkyTech

FridaysWell wrote: »

So now they decide to put up the pre paid ticket fares? Do they have any reason at all to justify this? Do they give such a reason? As a company that provides a very important Publice Service, how can they be allowed to raise their fares every couple of months without anyone saying anything???

The feckin student 30 Day ticket was increased to €78 in September/October... Now they are going to increase it again? **** off dublin bus, F U C K OFF... Excuse me for putting it so coarsely but I'm kinda sick of being fuked around by Dublin Bus, the Luas, the Govt in general...

Gonna get my full license and a car over the summer and its goodbye bus for me...

I agree. Targeting (any) fares in a recession shold only be downward, not upward. Majority of Students who travel on DB do not have part time jobs at the mo and are relying on their parents to fund thier transport costs.

FridaysWell

SparkyTech wrote: »

I agree. Targeting (any) fares in a recession shold only be downward, not upward. Majority of Students who travel on DB do not have part time jobs at the mo and are relying on their parents to fund thier transport costs.

Ireland has been in recession for about two to three years now. In those years there has been at least 4-6 fare increases, and prepaid ticket increases...
Thats ****ing ridiculous if you ask me. I don't have a part time job, God knows I have been looking high and low for one, and I'm sick of getting my Dad to get my ticket every month. Now Dublin Bus hike another unjustified fare increase...

Were is the accountability in this organisation?

Cookie_Monster

FridaysWell wrote: »

Were is the accountability in this organisation?

The NTA approved the increase, as they have done without question of the other requested increases. There's your accountability right there, for all the good it does.

AlekSmart

FridaysWell wrote: »

The feckin student 30 Day ticket was increased to €78 in September/October... Now they are going to increase it again? **** off dublin bus, F U C K OFF... Excuse me for putting it so coarsely but I'm kinda sick of being fuked around by Dublin Bus, the Luas, the Govt in general...

Gonna get my full license and a car over the summer and its goodbye bus for me...

The only real problem with this perfectly understandable response is that during this summer period we are going to see our Government apply significant increases to the cost of running a car

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/motorists-face-triple-whammy-of-hikes-in-tax-tolls-and-petrol-2629166.html

These will be doubly compounded by fiscal stunts such as the proposed Quinn Insurance levy...

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/motorists-face-triple-whammy-of-hikes-in-tax-tolls-and-petrol-2629166.html

What the NTA's decision on Dublin Bus's Prepaid Fares does is to preemptively close-off any possibility of Public Bus Transport offering a mass market popular alternative to private motoring.

It's a totally anti-social policy and will become more so as the year progresses.

Those directly effected,who,after all,constitute the most valuable type of customer,compliant,co-operative,efficient minded and paying in advance are to be yet again disadvantaged in order to facilitate the maintenance of unsustainably low cash fares for the 50% of customers who,if they continue to be so facilitated,will keep Dublins Public Bus Service rooted firmly in the past. :mad:

SparkyTech

Reminds me of a Thomas Jefferson quote

''Experience demands that man is the only animal which devours his own kind, for I can apply no milder term to the general prey of the rich on the poor.''

DB are shooting themselves in the foot. I will not be using them whenever possible outside of my essential commute from hereafter.

schemingbohemia

What's the alternative?

There's no more money for subvention as per the Government who have already said there'll be a cut in subvention next year.

Passenger numbers are on the slide, so how can the shortfall between subvention and costs be made up?

DB have already, it seems to me, cut costs significantly. The only other option is to further cut jobs in the organisation, which will lead to Government subvented redundancy packages and then SW costs.

Or cut wages, that might be the only option left.

How many people whinging about an extra €4 a month wouldn't think twice before buying a pint or a cappuccino?

There's definitely some anomalies in the increases, the travel 90 should have been left as it was.

LXFlyer

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

The NTA approved the increase, as they have done without question of the other requested increases. There's your accountability right there, for all the good it does.

The NTA did provide a full justification here - something we never got from the Department. You may not agree with it but there is at least some explanation of the rationale.

Cookie_Monster

lxflyer wrote: »

The NTA did provide a full justification here - something we never got from the Department. You may not agree with it but there is at least some explanation of the rationale.

that justification is pure dreamland stuff. Nothing mentioned about falling CPI or reduction of service levels or anything else. There can be no justification for increase in the current climate, especially after 3 years of increase already and ticket price increase only 8 months ago.

With an extended national budgetary plan of fiscal austerity up to 2014,consumption is expected to continue to contract over the coming years. This will place considerable pressure on Dublin Bus' passenger numbers. The analysis below assumes constant passenger numbers in 2011 compared to 2010. If significant passenger declines are experienced in 2011, it is acknowledged that the approved fare levels may require revision or some service reductions may be required.

That quote alone proves to me that the only consideration is revenue generation, not serving the public, not running a service. Revenue down = up fares to compensate is the mentality there, no thought at all but into a considered reduction in order to attract customers back to the service. They'll lose even more customers now, never mind the 1,000s lot due to ND destroying successful routes

You'd almost swear they wanted to price out as many people as possible just so they can justify more cuts to buses, staff and costs.

schemingbohemia

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

that justification is pure dreamland stuff. Nothing mentioned about falling CPI or reduction of service levels or anything else. There can be no justification for increase in the current climate, especially after 3 years of increase already and ticket price increase only 8 months ago.



That quote alone proves to me that the only consideration is revenue generation, not serving the public, not running a service. Revenue down = up fares to compensate is the mentality there, no thought at all but into a considered reduction in order to attract customers back to the service. They'll lose even more customers now, never mind the 1,000s lot due to ND destroying successful routes

You'd almost swear they wanted to price out as many people as possible just so they can justify more cuts to buses, staff and costs.

what's your solution so?

patrickbrophy18

schemingbohemia wrote: »

what's your solution so?

All Cookie_Monster is pointing out is that the level of service which Dublin Bus are providing appears to be inversely proportional to the fares. In other words, people are paying more for a poorer service. It isn't very logical, is it? It certainly isn't customer friendly. Even though we are in a very bad economic crisis, that still isn't a good excuse to ignore a more sinister crisis called global warming. According to many scientists, we are very rapidly reaching the threshold or crossroads where we can make a difference in this regard. Some scientists believe that this threshold will come within the next 15 years and that hereafter, it will be too late as the climate will be sent spinning out of "OUR" control:rolleyes:.

The CIE group of companies are shooting themselves in the foot with cuts and fare increases and exacerbating climate change in the process as more people will switch back to the car. Understandably, who could blame commuters when the efficiency of public transport is going down the toilet. So, what, may I ask, is your solution schemingbohemia?

schemingbohemia

Do you really think Dublin Bus are losing passengers due to the price increases?
To quote Bill Clinton, "It's the economy, stupid!"
A person above complained about his improved service going up by €4 a month, that's 13.5c a day!!

Firstly I would keep the pre-paid fare increases just announced with the exception of the Travel90.

I would increase the Social Welfare payments to all those accepting free travel passes to something a lot closer to the actual fare and ensure that this did not lead to a concommitant reduction in subvention.

I would decrease wages in the CIE companies by 5% (for those earning over €60k) and reduce the number of administrative staff by a few hundred. I would make redundant all level-crossing keepers (where the staff aren't due to retire in the next two years) and automate all level-crossings.

And when the Integrated Ticketing comes in I would crucify cash payers to the level it happens on the London Underground.

mgmt

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

global warming.

Oh My Gawd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2syzxPND8QE

FridaysWell

Look if this was a 100% private company, and they put the prices for their tickets, I wouldn't complain. Thats economics, thats business. But because it is a public (or partly public) company operating PSO's, an essential public service, of course I'm gonna be pissed off. They keep putting their prices up. I don't care if the NTA, RSA, FBI etc try and justify it, 2 or more prices hikes each year is never justified.

Have we not learnt anything from the whole mess of the banks?? i.e things cannot keep on going up, in this case costs cannot and are not going up. Petrol flucutuates, sure, but surely the government can intervene for Dublin bus and cut some tax off it for them...

€4 is not much to be honest, but I'm a stingy student and I dont have the luxury of a part time job and I dont want to ask my parents for 1c more. So **** you Dublin Bus, you've ripped me off way too long with a crappy service, and eventually your going to lose me as a customer.

The govt can put all the tax etc on cars, it is a far superior mode of transport in this city and it will save me so much more time, which is money to me.