Dublin Bus Network Review

LXFlyer

The SCR, Camden Street and Georges Street are core areas for the 16 - you could not possibly take it out of there.

Merging the 16 and 16a will improve the service dramatically for those living along Grange Road in Rathfarnham/Ballinteer at last (where the higher usage is) and should standardise intervals along the entire route rather than the present situation where a 16 and 16a often meet each other in Rathfarnham northbound and at Santry southbound.

markpb

qerty wrote: »

a low frequency route makes it harder to determine when a bus will arrive, but if the frequency is high well then you can be sure that there will be a bus along shortly, the route is reliable and it attracts business.

You're right - high frequency makes a route more predicable which is good for passengers but it only works when the route is reliable which, in my experience, it is not.

lxflyer wrote: »

The SCR, Camden Street and Georges Street are core areas for the 16 - you could not possibly take it out of there.

I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. I'm pointing out that the 16 is not a very reliable route northbound so it won't be much use to anyone going to the airport. This means the level of service for the airport will be reduced (but only because the 41s have mostly been pulled from the airport).

I also don't understand why Ballinteer has a direct service to the airport but most of the areas around the airport where most of the people who work in it live, do not.

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. I'm pointing out that the 16 is not a very reliable route northbound so it won't be much use to anyone going to the airport. This means the level of service for the airport will be reduced (but only because the 41s have mostly been pulled from the airport).

I also don't understand why Ballinteer has a direct service to the airport but most of the areas around the airport where most of the people who work in it live, do not.

That is not helped at the moment by the fact that the two routes go from separate termini and can actually operate in pairs from Rathfarnham. That should reduce significantly as they will all go from the same terminus.

As I said there is a rumour that a private operator may have an application in for some of those areas that you mention. The 16 serves the entire Rathfarnham QBC and not just Ballinteer. The Airport was a no go zone with the DoT in terms of new service applications by DB and still is I suspect being treated with kid gloves due to the large private presence.

delta_bravo

I heard the 54a will remain in place. Any confirmation of this?

LXFlyer

delta_bravo wrote: »

I heard the 54a will remain in place. Any confirmation of this?

They've not announced the results of the Tallaght consultation yet but I would assume that the plans for Kiltipper/Killinarden will change based on this re-routing of the 140.

It also looks to me as the 14/20b merger will be exactly that - the existing 14 and 20b routes as it won't need to serve Upper Rathmines any more, as the 61 and 140 are covering that section of the 14a route. Between that, and the improved frequency on the 16, Ballinteer is doing very well out of this to/from the city.

pclive

Travel times along Aungier Street and Georges Street have been much better lately apart from Sat night with all the taxis of course

ILBondo

delta_bravo wrote: »

I heard the 54a will remain in place. Any confirmation of this?

Brendan Cushen of Dublin Bus confirmed to me in an email that the 54a will indeed remain in place.

AlekSmart

pclive wrote: »

Travel times along Aungier Street and Georges Street have been much better lately apart from Sat night with all the taxis of course

This is one point that many are overlooking....The current lawless state of Dublin City's Taxi sector has more than the capability to derail many of Network Directs newer and far more customer focused improvements.

The continuing reluctance of Gardai,NTA and Dublin City Council to face-down the large number of,by now,supremely confident Taxi Drivers is now most definitely a major problem of itself.

Individual gardai are now being openly ignored,derided and even abused in broad daylight with impunity it seems....it really is now threatening the entire fragile Roads and Traffic scenario in the City Centre.

I am more than aware that this problem is driven by a clique of Taxidrivers,but as their attituide is seen to remain unchallenged it further emboldens those lurkers to adopt the same stance.

At this point,the situation now merits urgent and direct action by the Gardai alone,with the NTA and particularly the (so called) Regulator Ms Doyle perhaps encouraged to take some...."administrative leave" whilst the results of their negligent quasi-regulation are put to rights.

It is now a question of whether the Taxi Industry's undoubted problems and their highly individualistic responses can be allowed to dictate the greater City's pace of life to the detriment of most (non taxi using) citizens.

The sudden rush of somewhat positive Network Direct improvements have to be welcomed,but serious questions remain as to why such commonsense was not allowed to prevail from the outset.

Has the NTA somehow or other noticed the tide of negativity (The sheer scale of This thread alone is example of this) which the original ND proposals managed to elicit from a normally highly compliant customer base ?

My own guess is that somewhat saner counsel became involved at a high level,allowing perhaps,for a lesser reliance on raw data,and somewhat more credence being placed on actual reportage from the streets....either way the result now appears to be a selection of workable alterations which have potential to afford REAL improvements to Dublin's bus service.....Fingers Crossed on this one !!

markpb

AlekSmart wrote: »

Individual gardai are now being openly ignored,derided and even abused in broad daylight with impunity it seems....it really is now threatening the entire fragile Roads and Traffic scenario in the City Centre.

For whatever reason the Gardai have been content with just asking taxi drivers to move on. A persistent campaign of issuing FPNs would have nipped this one in the bud.

pclive

Hey AlexSmart

What recent positive Network Improvements are you referring to?

qerty

I noticed a lot of timetables were taken down in Ballyfermot and Clondalkin recently, hopefully this means Dublin Bus intends on putting up notices regarding service changes.:D

Art(h)ur

markpb wrote:

You're right - high frequency makes a route more predicable which is good for passengers but it only works when the route is reliable which, in my experience, it is not.

As we are talking principles: this assumes that if the frequency is fairly high (say every 10 mins) then buses can arrive at any moment but still everybody should be happy because you would have to wait 10 mins at most. The two major problems with this are for me:
a) Buses do not run according to their schedule - if there is one in 3 mins it should arrive in 3 mins, not after 8. I'd say this is the worst problem for DB: not the waiting times as such but the uncertainty about the actual waiting time. Until recently the information DB were offering was that a bus may come at any moment between now and 20 minutes - this is rubbish by any European standards (RTPI should provide some consolation here but we'll have to wait and see if it fulfils its promises).
b) The mess above could be bearable only if buses were in fact coming at more or less regular intervals which would be more or less equal to the scheduled frequency. But it has happened a number of times to me (and probably to any other poster) that I had to wait 15 mins or more for a bus running allegedly every 10 mins. And then, obviously, two or three would arrive together. This includes the most frequent routes in Dublin: 46a, the 15s, 128 etc.
So clearly high frequency does not improve the reliability, at least not in this city.

SandyfordGuy

I see the Swords Road proposals are out now.

The 41a is coming back as a new local route - The routing is interesting though - seems to be designed to try and take business away from Urbus, particuarly now the only two routes from Swords to the airport are running near identical routes both terminating at the airport.

Considering there are a lot of areas that could have been served that do not have good links to the airport, it's a shame Dublin Bus has decided to go for the options it did, but it doesn't really surprise me.

The 16 looks suspiciously like it will overlap with the Aircoach route more than the 16A, which no doubt is why they picked the 16 route to serve the airport rather than the old 16A route, making the route more speedy and duplicating in order to challenge the competition more, whilst cutting people off from routes that they had before.

I thought Dublin Bus was about serving the entire community? It seems that certain people are not attractive to be served as others!

KD345

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

The 16 looks suspiciously like it will overlap with the Aircoach route more than the 16A, which no doubt is why they picked the 16 route to serve the airport rather than the old 16A route, making the route more speedy and duplicating in order to challenge the competition more, whilst cutting people off from routes that they had before.

I thought Dublin Bus was about serving the entire community? It seems that certain people are not attractive to be served as others!

There are far more people served on the Ballinteer section than what there is on the Nutgrove part, so it makes sense to have the 16 as the main route. The 16 is a very different service to what is on offer from Aircoach. While both may terminate at Ballinteer and the Airport, that is where the similarity ends. Aircoach offers a high speed express service to the airport charging a premium fare. The 16 is a city bus service offering a far slower journey time at a cheap price. There is a market for both and it's good to see common sense kick in by the NTA to allow both services run side by side.

LXFlyer

Corrected route frequencies now on the website which make far more sense:

Service Frequencies (Estimates)

Route Peak Off Peak
3/a 30 mins 60 mins
15 10 mins 10 mins
15a 15 mins 30 mins
15b 15 mins 30 mins
16 8 mins 10 mins
41 12 mins 20 mins
41a 30 mins 60 mins
41b Peak Service
41c 20 mins 20 mins
61 30 mins 60 mins
102 30 mins 30 mins
140 10 mins 20 mins
142 Peak Service
161 60 mins 60 mins

LXFlyer

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

I see the Swords Road proposals are out now.

The 41a is coming back as a new local route - The routing is interesting though - seems to be designed to try and take business away from Urbus, particuarly now the only two routes from Swords to the airport are running near identical routes both terminating at the airport.

Considering there are a lot of areas that could have been served that do not have good links to the airport, it's a shame Dublin Bus has decided to go for the options it did, but it doesn't really surprise me.

The 16 looks suspiciously like it will overlap with the Aircoach route more than the 16A, which no doubt is why they picked the 16 route to serve the airport rather than the old 16A route, making the route more speedy and duplicating in order to challenge the competition more, whilst cutting people off from routes that they had before.

I thought Dublin Bus was about serving the entire community? It seems that certain people are not attractive to be served as others!

I would have to disagree with most of what you posted:

The first point is separating the City/Swords and City/Airport routes. This had to happen. Why should 50% of the population of Swords have to endure a 10 minute detour around Dublin Airport every time they go to/from the city?

By taking the 41 out of the airport and sending all the 16s to the Airport you are achieving that and maintaining the same number of buses between the city and the airport.

However there is still a need to provide the local Airport/Swords service that the 41 does right now. That will be done by the 41a.

The point about this is that there is still the same frequency between Swords and the city while Swords/Airport actually drops. Therefore, while I take your point on the revised 41a routing, I think that given the proposed frequency is less than the current 41 service that URBus have little to be afraid of.

As for the 16 - I first heard of this plan about 3 years ago, so it's hardly a response to Aircoach's new service. The fundamental problem that the 16 and 16a suffer is bunching followed by long gaps caused (mainly) by starting from separate termini. This solution achieves several objectives:
- It should eliminate the current bunching and provide a more regular interval service along the entire route
- It will provide a decent service along Grange Road in Rathfarnham where by far the heavier loadings are. This area has had a much lower level of service (especially in the peak) than it should compared to Nutgrove Avenue. This is being addressed by sending all the 16s up Grange Road but providing the 61 along Nutgrove Avenue which should actually be faster than the current 16a to/from the city.

By taking the revised route the 16 actually misses two Aircoach stops on Nutgrove Avenue by doing this and does not serve any Aircoach stop in the Ballinteer area so I cannot figure out how you think it is encroaching on more of the Aircoach service by taking the Grange Road.

As has been pointed out numerous times here the 16 and Aircoach are two products aimed at completely different markets.

qerty

Does anybody know anything regarding services that have not yet been mentioned but plans for the areas they serve have? For example, the 33 was not mentioned in the swords road plans, neither were the 114/116/118 (when the stillorgan plans were released)and 53/a has not been mentioned anywhere either. I Would of thought that the 53 service would have been amalgamated with the 151 and the 53a dropped, but obviously not.
Just curious as to plans,if any, regarding these services.

Rabbitt

I find it annoying that you find about changes arfter consoltations in areas tru ND announcements elsewhere.
The 140 is bow not being extended to Kiltipper yet the people of that area don't know that or that the 54a is stating put. It's a farce.
IMO the bus service DB was generally fine and with a small bit if fine tuning would have kept everyone happy. If routes were loosing money reduce the service and reduce overtime etc.
Instead they hired a bunch of people who probably never sat on a bus before to tell them what we want instead of asking us

LXFlyer

Rabbitt wrote: »

I find it annoying that you find about changes arfter consoltations in areas tru ND announcements elsewhere.
The 140 is bow not being extended to Kiltipper yet the people of that area don't know that or that the 54a is stating put. It's a farce.
IMO the bus service DB was generally fine and with a small bit if fine tuning would have kept everyone happy. If routes were loosing money reduce the service and reduce overtime etc.
Instead they hired a bunch of people who probably never sat on a bus before to tell them what we want instead of asking us

I think you've got to be patient.

To my mind the process (certainly in phase 2) has been that a draft plan for each area has been prepared and put out to consultation. You have to have a starting point that provokes a discussion. The replies have then been sifted through and analysed and if enough negative feedback is received the plan needs to be altered accordingly. The problem is that many of the changes affect multiple areas which are being consulted separately and may still be ongoing.

So far the only definite areas confirmed in phase 2 are the 150/121 merger, the Malahide Road area, Finglas West/South and Ballyfermot.

Before they start implementing they will have to announce each area's revised network, but because of the multiple consultations that can take time because of inter-related routes. I suspect that's what's happened in Tallaght. At the end of the day before any changes take place they're going to tell you. So what difference is it going to make to you right now if you have to wait a while longer? The 54a is still operating right now. It's not going to disappear without people being told (and may not disappear at all).

The next phase is then getting agreement with drivers on new rosters and schedules - that could take time in certain areas due to several merged routes now operating from 2 depots rather than 1, such as the new 40 which will operate from both Harristown and Conyngham Road.

dazmetron

I've just read this article on the Irish Times website about the planned protests this weekend against Network Direct. No matter what your opinion is about the process, surely you would have to laugh at Richard Boyd Barrett's claim that Dublin Bus (and the government) want to hand profitable routes (presumably he means the 46A) to private companies. I'm sure Dublin Bus really want this!

Protests over Dublin Bus cuts
Protests against changes and cuts to Dublin Bus services will take place across the capital at the weekend.

The protests on Saturday, organised by the Save Our Bus Services (SOBS) campaign, are being described as the first step in a concerted "fightback against cuts in public transport services for the most vulnerable communities".

The campaign is being co-ordinated by People Before Profit in conjunction with affected communities.

The protests take place in Inchicore; Ringsend; Dundrum; Donnycarney; Crumlin; Ballymun; Whitehall; Finglas; Dún Laoghaire and Clondalkin.

What is being billed by organisers as a further “mass demo”is planned for the following weekend outside Dublin Bus headquarters in O'Connell Street.

Dublin Bus has been changing and, in some cases, eliminating bus routes across the city since September last year as part of the 'Network Direct' project.

Further changes are planned which campaigners said will cause more hardship for the elderly, the sick and less well-off who are dependent on a quality bus service.

A spokeswoman for Dublin Bus said the changes were not intended to cause hardship but to improve and enhance services. "These changes have been implemented on a phased basis and each one following a public consultation process and extensive public information campaign,” she said.

Areas affected so far include Stillorgan, Dún Laoghaire, Bray, north Wicklow, Blanchardstown, Lucan and north Kildare, she said.

Consultations were onoing about planned changes in Clondalkin, Ballymun, Coolock, Cabra, Donaghmede, Artane, Ballyfermot, Finglas east, west and south, Glasnevin, Drumcondra, Tallaght, Walkinstown, Crumlin Road, South Circular Road, Pearse Street, Sandymount, Kilmacud, Ballinteer, Goatstown and Dundrum.

"Dublin Bus has engaged with local representatives, customers and different groups to brief them on proposed plans and received feedback. After each public consultation this feedback is collated and assessed before plans are finalised," she said.

Speaking a press conference in Dublin today, Patsy Doolin, a Ringsend resident and member of 'Save the Number 3 Bus' campaign, said she was "overwhelmed” at how difficult it is to get a bus to keep hospital appointments. “If the number 3 is cut any more, it is going to be a great inconvenience to people,” she said.

Bobby O'Toole, Monkstown resident and member of the 'Save the 46A' campaign, said the most vulnerable members of society who are suffering. “Since the cuts to the 46A last September, people have to wait over an hour for a bus. This is an outrage."

Richard Boyd Barrett, People Before Profit TD for Dún Laoghaire, said the cuts were the most recent in a long series of attacks on services and jobs in Dublin Bus.

"The real agenda of Dublin Bus and this Government is to privatise this essential public service and allow private companies to cherry-pick the most profitable routes,” he claimed.

clunked

Ah sure, what would 'Rich Boy' know about slumming it with the ordinary mortals on the bus!!

clunked

Back on topic, the 3/3A service is an suprising one, more got to do with the change in the new merged 14 route retaining the 20B terminus of Ardlea Road. Well if Dublin bus maintain a service to Larkhill and Shanard Road, perhaps the 3A should retain the current 16 routing through Beaumont.

Cookie_Monster

RBB wrote:

"The real agenda of Dublin Bus and this Government is to privatise this essential public service and allow private companies to cherry-pick the most profitable routes,” he claimed.

:rolleyes:

It actually makes me sick that people in my constituency voted for this retard :mad:


Let's see some proof of that Richard, and even if it is true and you have proof, explain how or why it would be a bad thing given the mess that Dublin bus is.

SparkyTech

Am I right in thinking the 15b will no longer serve Taylors Lane & Whitechurch?

schemingbohemia

dazmetron wrote: »

I've just read this article on the Irish Times website about the planned protests this weekend against Network Direct. No matter what your opinion is about the process, surely you would have to laugh at Richard Boyd Barrett's claim that Dublin Bus (and the government) want to hand profitable routes (presumably he means the 46A) to private companies. I'm sure Dublin Bus really want this!

That Bobby fella in Monkstown farm doesn't have to wait an hour for a bus all he has to do is walk 5 minutes and get one of a plethora of 46a's at the end of the farm. Muppets like RBB and him are as much a part of the problem as the Bankers and Bertie were.

LXFlyer

SparkyTech wrote: »

Am I right in thinking the 15b will no longer serve Taylors Lane & Whitechurch?

Correct. The 15b is going to replace the 74a south of Ballyboden roundabout.

Taylors Lane will have the 161 to/from Dundrum (twice in each direction!).
Whitechurch will have the 61, 116 and 161.

SparkyTech

lxflyer wrote: »

Correct. The 15b is going to replace the 74a south of Ballyboden roundabout.

Taylors Lane will have the 161 to/from Dundrum (twice in each direction!).
Whitechurch will have the 61, 116 and 161.

Thats disappointing. The 15b was my other alternative home when I fancied an extra 5min stroll up to the Grange Road in lieu of the 16. I doubt the residents of Whitechurch will be happy to learn of a severely reduced alternative 61.

LXFlyer

SparkyTech wrote: »

Thats disappointing. The 15b was my other alternative home when I fancied an extra 5min stroll up to the Grange Road in lieu of the 16. I doubt the residents of Whitechurch will be happy to learn of a severely reduced alternative 61.

To be fair the 15b was overkill in terms of service to Whitechurch and probably should never have been extended there.

The service levels look like they are reverting to the old 15c service levels.

The 61 should also be faster than the 15b routing.

-Chris-

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

:rolleyes:

It actually makes me sick that people in my constituency voted for this retard :mad:

Let's relax with the name calling and personal insults please.

dynamick

Monkstown farm is 800m long with a 46a at one end on an 8 minute frequency and a No. 4 at the other end on a 15 minute frequency and if you are too infirm to walk 5 minutes you can wait for the 63 which runs along through the farm every 30 minutes with a live schedule here:
http://www.dublinbuslive.com/index.php?id=2028&lastRoute=63

In other words a better public transport service than 99% of the country.