People believe FG answer to all our problems????

The_Honeybadger

dlofnep wrote: »

It's not an issue of "working" flipping burgers. Please don't be obtuse. It's about forcing students to work long hours, on account of having no government support - which directly affects their education. I've worked all through college - and have paid my entire way - but I've seen many who have been forced to quit college on account of lack of support.

The fact that mature students, who are intending to move to another county to study are assessed on their parents income, is ludicrous. So don't come on here, pretending to be naive - thinking that people are not struggling to make it into or through college due to financial concerns.

I must say this wasn't a widespread problem when I was in college, I saw many people drop out, but not because of lack of support or working long hours. Many lacked motivation and interest and spent long hours doing anything but course work, a far bigger problem for todays pampered youth. I worked right through college and always managed to keep up, some people wouldn't be bothered doing this. I know some courses are more demanding than others before you jump down my throat. But overall I doubt there are that many dropping out on economic grounds, Is there any data on this I wonder?

Permabear

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RichardAnd

mickeyk wrote: »

I must say this wasn't a widespread problem when I was in college, I saw many people drop out, but not because of lack of support or working long hours. Many lacked motivation and interest and spent long hours doing anything but course work, a far bigger problem for todays pampered youth. I worked right through college and always managed to keep up, some people wouldn't be bothered doing this. I know some courses are more demanding than others before you jump down my throat. But overall I doubt there are that many dropping out on economic grounds, Is there any data on this I wonder?

Agreed. In fact, it can be argued that the standard of graduates actually dropped by the state paying their fees. I once had the lack of foresight to mention this to a group of students when I was approached in the street to sign some petition to stop "FF's right wing mandate against Irish students". Naturally, I was verbally set upon by 5 or 6 of them berating me and my "nazi opinions".

Naturally, FG would support the students and continue to burn millions sending everyone and their dog to college to study ludicrous courses such as Jam making or Basket Weaving. Like I said in my above post, FG are just telling people what they want to hear to gain their votes.

dlofnep

mickeyk wrote: »

I must say this wasn't a widespread problem when I was in college, I saw many people drop out, but not because of lack of support or working long hours. Many lacked motivation and interest and spent long hours doing anything but course work, a far bigger problem for todays pampered youth. I worked right through college and always managed to keep up, some people wouldn't be bothered doing this. I know some courses are more demanding than others before you jump down my throat. But overall I doubt there are that many dropping out on economic grounds, Is there any data on this I wonder?

I can only tell you what I've witnessed personally. And it wasn't on account of them not wanting to continue their education.

ei.sdraob

Good one @df

I really find the Marxists notions of "workers" being treated unfairly in modern day Ireland amusing

next they be telling us that someone on 36K is low paid, oh wait...

@dlofnep
do you want a medal? I also had to work flipping burgers and stocking shelves right thru college, big wow
I came out ok in the end, once again if anything it made me appreciate education i was getting and learn what work ethic means


you are just rehashing the same old

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

line in your posts here

but when pressed on whom decides on abilities and needs, and more importantly who pays for it, you go quiet

Permabear

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dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

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No, I wouldn't be hard-pressed to make that case whatsoever. Access to education is a problem. I've provided a very clear scenario of a mature student being means tested on their parents income, but yet you have avoided discussing it - and provided me with meaningless figures, that do not discuss those who have been forced to leave college, or have no being able to attend college for financial reasons.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Education benefits nobody? There is a huge problem with lack of employment at the moment. I would much rather people educated themselves, than sit around waiting for things to happen. To say that we have too much education is asinine.

donegalfella wrote: »

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I don't study hospitality, or culinary. Do you? Or are you commenting out of ignorance? I wonder if those students would consider it a waste of taxpayer's money.

dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

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No, they don't. They want to cover the costs of food, materials, transport, and a roof over their heads. The students that you are referring to, are the students who do not put in the effort in college. Not everyone falls under this category, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't make students out to be a bunch of wasters.

Many students have problems with funding their way through college, and this is a legitimate concern. Your snide comments aside, you cannot refute this fact.

donegalfella wrote: »

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I have also done so, and I can say that working has affected my education. I've often had to work late until midnight, while I've had an exam at 9 the next morning. While I'm more than happy to work and earn my keep - I know many others who have struggled alot to make it through college.

You have STILL not addressed a valid point I brought up about mature students being means tested on their parents income. But knowing you, you're against state support - so you're not overly bothered by the struggles of those who are scraping by.

dlofnep

ei.sdraob wrote: »

G
@dlofnep
do you want a medal? I also had to work flipping burgers and stocking shelves right thru college, big wow
I came out ok in the end, once again if anything it made me appreciate education i was getting and learn what work ethic means


you are just rehashing the same old

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

line in your posts here

but when pressed on whom decides on abilities and needs, and more importantly who pays for it, you go quiet

If you respond to me in such a manner again, I will place you on ignore. Either discuss the topic at hand with me, in a mature manner - taking in the points that I have presented, or do not respond to my posts.

I didn't ask you for recognition, nor did I discuss anything about the value of earning your keep. I am quite clearly discussing the reality that many students cannot afford to put themselves through college. You've avoided this quite categorically, and instead turned it into a red herring.

RichardAnd

dlofnep wrote: »

If you respond to me in such a manner again, I will place you on ignore. Either discuss the topic at hand with me, in a mature manner - taking in the points that I have presented, or do not respond to my posts.

I didn't ask you for recognition, nor did I discuss anything about the value of earning your keep. I am quite clearly discussing the reality that many students cannot afford to put themselves through college. You've avoided this quite categorically, and instead turned it into a red herring.

You are correct that many people can not afford to go to college. Many people also can not afford to keep a roof over their head and many people can not afford to feed themselves. The reason? Money.

I'm not saying this is right but what you have mentions is a simple fact of the world. If you don't have the money, you don't get the goods. This will not change.

Permabear

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danman

donegalfella wrote: »

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Excellant post Donegalfella.
You raised a lot of points that I've never thought of.

When I went to university, 2 students out of my 40 student primary school class went on to 3rd level education.
We both ended up in the same uni and both worked in bars together.
Personally I worked in 3 bars during the week.

This wasn't in the 60's or the 70's it was barely the 90's.

I didn't realise that 66% of 18 year olds now go on to 3rd level.

My, how times have changed. And yet, it's still not considered good enough.

dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

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Ah there you go again with meaningless figures. Every second person this, and 100,000 that. Many people are unable to attend college, due to lack of support. Many of my friends fit into this category - and not because they didn't work, or went out on routine nights our drinking as you would like to have them portrayed.

I've provided an example for you, where a student cannot enter college - based on their parents income, despite being a mature student. So you either oppose state support for students altogether, or you're unable to tackle this topic.

donegalfella wrote: »

It's not. Government policy has been too focused on quantity at the expense of quality. Packing thousands of students into silly, Mickey Mouse courses is considered to be a wonderful achievement because all these people are in "third level" and getting "degrees."

The colleges themselves design the structure of their courses. While some courses need improvements, and some staff need to be upskilled (I'm not in disagreement about this) - Would you prefer that they sat on the dole? Because with the second highest unemployment rates for young people in Europe (25%) - this is the alternative for them.

What is your alternative for them? Go seek work that does not exist? Remain on the dole, rather than receiving state support for being educated - to where they will be more valuable to the economy at a later date?

donegalfella wrote: »

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So you've passed judgement on all such courses, based on the words of one person? Marvelous.

average_runner

I went to college was it was basically state paid and have to say there is good points and bad to it.


Half of my course dropped out after 6 months as lost interest or party too much. Now I did party but got the balance right.

I think the government should do some of the following:

If you complete your course you get it free, otherwise you pay for the years you wasted, certain amount out of your pay packet a month.

Or government provide loans and students pay that when they start working again.


Free education is a good but unfortunately us Irish abuse it way too much so it needs to change.

ei.sdraob

dlofnep wrote: »

I didn't ask you for recognition, nor did I discuss anything about the value of earning your keep. I am quite clearly discussing the reality that many students cannot afford to put themselves through college. You've avoided this quite categorically, and instead turned it into a red herring.

It is not that hard to put yourself thru' college here, seriously now,
what exactly can the student in your example not afford? details please
If anything its much easier than just about everywhere else in the world, where you would come out with large debts for your education


Most people who dropped out of college in my class literally had no interest in anything but drink and didnt show up, and then failed out of 100 starting 25 or so finished, rest either changed course or went working in construction! (where there was more money), that was one giant waste of taxpayers money right there

Only one person had to drop out to help his disabled wife, he was a mature student, no problems getting a nice German car while being on welfare/support too, of which he was quite proud too and like to brag about

Permabear

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Dannyboy83

Too much exaggeration & too much caricature in this thread. On both sides.

I think I'll skip this one.

ei.sdraob

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Too much exaggeration & too much caricature in this thread. On both sides.

I think I'll skip this one.

Its real life experience, mate

And yes a "caricature" is a good word

zootroid

dlofnep wrote: »

Ah there you go again with meaningless figures. Every second person this, and 100,000 that. Many people are unable to attend college, due to lack of support. Many of my friends fit into this category - and not because they didn't work, or went out on routine nights our drinking as you would like to have them portrayed.

I've provided an example for you, where a student cannot enter college - based on their parents income, despite being a mature student. So you either oppose state support for students altogether, or you're unable to tackle this topic.



The colleges themselves design the structure of their courses. While some courses need improvements, and some staff need to be upskilled (I'm not in disagreement about this) - Would you prefer that they sat on the dole? Because with the second highest unemployment rates for young people in Europe (25%) - this is the alternative for them.

What is your alternative for them? Go seek work that does not exist? Remain on the dole, rather than receiving state support for being educated - to where they will be more valuable to the economy at a later date?



So you've passed judgement on all such courses, based on the words of one person? Marvelous.

You dismiss Donegalfella's arguement on the basis that he provided meaningless figures, and then you go onto to give anecdotal evidence. Then you dismiss his views on tourism courses on the basis his knowledge of it is anecdotal. Bit hypocritical is you ask me.

And I'm not for one second dismissing all anecdotal evidence. In fact I would give some notice to it rather than think "this course is a degree, it must be good".

You're friends may not be in a position to go to college, but that is not to say that the state should pick up the tab entirely.

average_runner wrote: »

I went to college was it was basically state paid and have to say there is good points and bad to it.


Half of my course dropped out after 6 months as lost interest or party too much. Now I did party but got the balance right.

I think the government should do some of the following:

If you complete your course you get it free, otherwise you pay for the years you wasted, certain amount out of your pay packet a month.

Or government provide loans and students pay that when they start working again.


Free education is a good but unfortunately us Irish abuse it way too much so it needs to change.

I would be in favour of this. If a student enrolls in a college, he should be given a student loan to cover the cost of tuition and basic living expenses, that he can start paying back once he graduates. The state is effectively making an investment in its people. And it may force students to seriously consider their career as they know they will be taking on debt upon graduation, and may persuade other students who only had the intention of partying for a few years to seek a career path that's more suitable to them.

My own circumstances are that I am training to be an accountant. I pay for the exam fees and tuition fees myself. I am doing this as I know the rewards will be good as soon as I qualify. And although i went to university for free myself, I think this way is much better as it provides an additional incentive to do well.

Forcing students to pay for themselves will not only help save the state some money, it will also help students mature and take responsibility for their own career. The state cannot be responsible for everything.

Drumpot

donegalfella wrote: »

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When I talk about this topic with friends, it never ceases to amaze me how low the bar has been set by everybody in terms of replacing FF. . .

Do I think FF should be replaced . . Certainly a large crop of the long standing members need to be put out to graze .. .

Do I think FG or Labour will improve things ? In terms of policy, Im not sure what they will do as they seem to be really confortable sitting at the dinner table with everybody . .

Will they make the right decisions for the greater good of the country and be any less "dodgy" ? We can only hope so . . But the fact that they were demanding more expenditure during the good years and the fact that Gilemore and Co rolled back on an obvious PR stunt (to take voluntary paycuts) says to me that its not simply about replacing the FF old guard.

There has to be a change of culture and attitudes by the electorate for there to be a REAL change in government . . We need to demand accountability, greater good (national) policies and integrity from the TD coming to our door, looking for our vote. .

Ask most people why they will not vote FF and they will say something like "Im not voting for that shower" or "we need change". Ask them to elaborate on that and it really boils down to them not actually thinking about what "change" means . . I want political upheavel. . I dont necessarily think we need a new party, more a new approach to politics. And the biggest problem is that the way our system is setup, it all starts at the votes of the electorate (who I feel are very naive).

Put simply, its not enough to say "lets get rid of FF". . Lets get rid of the modern political culture that exists in all parties. . Demand more from your politician whether it be Labour, FG or FF . .

Sleepy

dlofnep wrote: »

Ah there you go again with meaningless figures. Every second person this, and 100,000 that. Many people are unable to attend college, due to lack of support. Many of my friends fit into this category - and not because they didn't work, or went out on routine nights our drinking as you would like to have them portrayed.

I've provided an example for you, where a student cannot enter college - based on their parents income, despite being a mature student. So you either oppose state support for students altogether, or you're unable to tackle this topic.

You left out the fact that a mature student is only judged inelligible for the state support if they're still being housed by mammy and daddy. If they moved out of home for a year they'd be entitled to state support for their studies.

My younger brother is currently enjoying a post-graduate course on BTEA after moving out of home and spending a year living on unemployment benefit. It's not exactly difficult to obtain, it might take a year longer to start your course than you'd like and you'd have to give up the comforts of home and mammy's dinners but the access is there.

Permabear

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kuntboy

dlofnep, what were you intending to study and what was your original qualification, out of interest?

Permabear

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ei.sdraob

donegalfella wrote: »

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Wow that brings back memories!

Living in an expensive apartment cardboard box
eating noodles, beans and washing it down with odd bottle of buckfast

Hmm really does put life into perspective that and teaches one a lesson

bored and fussy

mickeyk wrote: »

IMO Fianna Gael are running with the hare and hunting with the hounds at the moment, they have not laid down a strong position on key issues such as public sector pay & reform, they are also against NAMA but have no credible alternative for fixing the banks. Also consider Labour will get in with them which will hamper them even further, I consider Labour to be full of hot air, great at shouting about what is wrong, but very little clue about what should be done to put it right. I think if anything they are a little scared of power, as they know what an impossible job it would be in Government now, there isn't a leader anywhere in the world that could get us out of this mess we have made and I think Enda knows this. FG's plan to create 100,000 jobs is pure pie in the sky as it would take an investment of billions that we don't have, and their plan for the health system makes some sense, but doesn't address the key issues in our hospitals. In summary i don't believe a change in Government will bring about any major change in our fortunes, I don't think anybody else does either. However they are not Fianna Fail, and this alone should see them get their chance IMO.

we should be careful what we wish for god help us all

almighty1

donegalfella wrote: »

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I work in a college and students are very far from cardboard boxes and rice and beans for dinner.

As far as I can make out they

All have cars
All have new laptops
All drink starbucks coffee in the morning/afternoon
All dress up like they are going out on the town

Im sure they some work in their part time to fund these excesses but the majority comes from their mammies and daddies.

Anyway, back on topic, Drumpots previous post is the most sensible post Ive seen in the godforsaken forum in a long while. FG may be better than FF but please god dont let Enda Kenny be our "leader".

dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

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No, I don't dismiss it. It's irrelevant. My point was that the current system does not allow everyone equal access to education, and despite there being high-intake of students into third-level institutions, there are still some who cannot access education because they cannot financially afford it.

donegalfella wrote: »

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There is no such thing as a free handout. I take issue with your labelling of state support as a "free handout". Many people require state support, and that's the reality of life.

Need I remind you, that these same people who are receiving "free handouts" as you put it, will be injecting a great deal of tax back into the economy when they are qualified.

donegalfella wrote: »

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What utter, unfounded nonsense. All students in Ireland are afforded the right to learn a European language in secondary school, and studying Irish does not impact on that. Infact, it assists it - as studies have shown that students who study a second language at a young age, will find the acquisition of any subsequent languages to be much easier.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Your alternative is nonsense, if you don't mind me saying so. Society is not equal, and not everyone is afforded the same chances in life. Without welfare, thousands of people would not be able to go forward and get an education to better themselves in life.

I agree with you on the bank-bailouts. But I believe that third-level education should be available to all, and not those who can afford it.

dlofnep

Sleepy wrote: »

You left out the fact that a mature student is only judged inelligible for the state support if they're still being housed by mammy and daddy. If they moved out of home for a year they'd be entitled to state support for their studies.

Why should they have to move out of their home for a year prior to starting college? Wouldn't it make much more sense to be judged based on what your current circumstances were - rather than your circumstances a year prior to application?

I am not in a position to move out of home, I could not afford it.

Sleepy wrote: »

My younger brother is currently enjoying a post-graduate course on BTEA after moving out of home and spending a year living on unemployment benefit. It's not exactly difficult to obtain, it might take a year longer to start your course than you'd like and you'd have to give up the comforts of home and mammy's dinners but the access is there.

So let me get this straight - You are advocating that someone go on unemployment benefit for a year, delaying their education - rather than receiving state support and entering education? This is your alternative?

It's interesting that Donegalfella cheer-leaded that post - as I was under the impression that he disagrees with welfare.

RichardAnd

dlofnep wrote: »

Why should they have to move out of their home for a year prior to starting college? Wouldn't it make much more sense to be judged based on what your current circumstances were - rather than your circumstances a year prior to application?

I am not in a position to move out of home, I could not afford it.

Dlofnep, why don't you tell us how you would run the third level education system in this country? I don't agree with what you are saying at all but I would be interested to see how you believe a system that is utterly "fair" could be realised.