People believe FG answer to all our problems????

Sleepy

dlofnep wrote: »

Ah there you go again with meaningless figures. Every second person this, and 100,000 that. Many people are unable to attend college, due to lack of support. Many of my friends fit into this category - and not because they didn't work, or went out on routine nights our drinking as you would like to have them portrayed.

I've provided an example for you, where a student cannot enter college - based on their parents income, despite being a mature student. So you either oppose state support for students altogether, or you're unable to tackle this topic.

You left out the fact that a mature student is only judged inelligible for the state support if they're still being housed by mammy and daddy. If they moved out of home for a year they'd be entitled to state support for their studies.

My younger brother is currently enjoying a post-graduate course on BTEA after moving out of home and spending a year living on unemployment benefit. It's not exactly difficult to obtain, it might take a year longer to start your course than you'd like and you'd have to give up the comforts of home and mammy's dinners but the access is there.

Permabear

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kuntboy

dlofnep, what were you intending to study and what was your original qualification, out of interest?

Permabear

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ei.sdraob

donegalfella wrote: »

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Wow that brings back memories!

Living in an expensive apartment cardboard box
eating noodles, beans and washing it down with odd bottle of buckfast

Hmm really does put life into perspective that and teaches one a lesson

bored and fussy

mickeyk wrote: »

IMO Fianna Gael are running with the hare and hunting with the hounds at the moment, they have not laid down a strong position on key issues such as public sector pay & reform, they are also against NAMA but have no credible alternative for fixing the banks. Also consider Labour will get in with them which will hamper them even further, I consider Labour to be full of hot air, great at shouting about what is wrong, but very little clue about what should be done to put it right. I think if anything they are a little scared of power, as they know what an impossible job it would be in Government now, there isn't a leader anywhere in the world that could get us out of this mess we have made and I think Enda knows this. FG's plan to create 100,000 jobs is pure pie in the sky as it would take an investment of billions that we don't have, and their plan for the health system makes some sense, but doesn't address the key issues in our hospitals. In summary i don't believe a change in Government will bring about any major change in our fortunes, I don't think anybody else does either. However they are not Fianna Fail, and this alone should see them get their chance IMO.

we should be careful what we wish for god help us all

almighty1

donegalfella wrote: »

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I work in a college and students are very far from cardboard boxes and rice and beans for dinner.

As far as I can make out they

All have cars
All have new laptops
All drink starbucks coffee in the morning/afternoon
All dress up like they are going out on the town

Im sure they some work in their part time to fund these excesses but the majority comes from their mammies and daddies.

Anyway, back on topic, Drumpots previous post is the most sensible post Ive seen in the godforsaken forum in a long while. FG may be better than FF but please god dont let Enda Kenny be our "leader".

dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

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No, I don't dismiss it. It's irrelevant. My point was that the current system does not allow everyone equal access to education, and despite there being high-intake of students into third-level institutions, there are still some who cannot access education because they cannot financially afford it.

donegalfella wrote: »

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There is no such thing as a free handout. I take issue with your labelling of state support as a "free handout". Many people require state support, and that's the reality of life.

Need I remind you, that these same people who are receiving "free handouts" as you put it, will be injecting a great deal of tax back into the economy when they are qualified.

donegalfella wrote: »

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What utter, unfounded nonsense. All students in Ireland are afforded the right to learn a European language in secondary school, and studying Irish does not impact on that. Infact, it assists it - as studies have shown that students who study a second language at a young age, will find the acquisition of any subsequent languages to be much easier.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Your alternative is nonsense, if you don't mind me saying so. Society is not equal, and not everyone is afforded the same chances in life. Without welfare, thousands of people would not be able to go forward and get an education to better themselves in life.

I agree with you on the bank-bailouts. But I believe that third-level education should be available to all, and not those who can afford it.

dlofnep

Sleepy wrote: »

You left out the fact that a mature student is only judged inelligible for the state support if they're still being housed by mammy and daddy. If they moved out of home for a year they'd be entitled to state support for their studies.

Why should they have to move out of their home for a year prior to starting college? Wouldn't it make much more sense to be judged based on what your current circumstances were - rather than your circumstances a year prior to application?

I am not in a position to move out of home, I could not afford it.

Sleepy wrote: »

My younger brother is currently enjoying a post-graduate course on BTEA after moving out of home and spending a year living on unemployment benefit. It's not exactly difficult to obtain, it might take a year longer to start your course than you'd like and you'd have to give up the comforts of home and mammy's dinners but the access is there.

So let me get this straight - You are advocating that someone go on unemployment benefit for a year, delaying their education - rather than receiving state support and entering education? This is your alternative?

It's interesting that Donegalfella cheer-leaded that post - as I was under the impression that he disagrees with welfare.

RichardAnd

dlofnep wrote: »

Why should they have to move out of their home for a year prior to starting college? Wouldn't it make much more sense to be judged based on what your current circumstances were - rather than your circumstances a year prior to application?

I am not in a position to move out of home, I could not afford it.

Dlofnep, why don't you tell us how you would run the third level education system in this country? I don't agree with what you are saying at all but I would be interested to see how you believe a system that is utterly "fair" could be realised.

dlofnep

RichardAnd wrote: »

Dlofnep, why don't you tell us how you would run the third level education system in this country? I don't agree with what you are saying at all but I would be interested to see how you believe a system that is utterly "fair" could be realised.

I would improve the grant system, allowing students to be assessed on their current circumstances - rather that prior circumstances. I don't believe it is sensible to not afford someone the right to a grant if they are moving to another county to start college, just because they had lived at home a year prior to that.

ei.sdraob

RichardAnd wrote: »

Dlofnep, why don't you tell us how you would run the third level education system in this country? I don't agree with what you are saying at all but I would be interested to see how you believe a system that is utterly "fair" could be realised.

here and here

of course no details or mention of where the money will come from :rolleyes:

Education and training to be an entitlement for all made possible by adequate grant-aid and support mechanisms,and the provision of focused access programmes for schools that currently have a low take up of third level places

i love that word

dlofnep

ei.sdraob wrote: »

here and here

of course no details or mention of where the money will come from :rolleyes:

It will come from a progressive tax system. One that will actually benefit the citizens of Ireland. Unlike the current NAMA robbery.

RichardAnd

dlofnep wrote: »

I would improve the grant system, allowing students to be assessed on their current circumstances - rather that prior circumstances. I don't believe it is sensible to not afford someone the right to a grant if they are moving to another county to start college, just because they had lived at home a year prior to that.

Fair enough. But you didn't really answer my challenge. What you have just said is the same as me claiming that the solution to the unemployment problem is to get people back to work.

Improving the grant system is one thing but how? Where is the money to send these people to college going to come from? How should they be assessed and just who would actually do this assessment? Where would the cut off point be for offering aid to poor students be? Any, most importantly of all, how would such an act benefit Ireland as a whole?

I'm not criticising you or picking an argument and it takes alot of balls to come out and express your views. My view of the state funding a student's schooling is that, on paper it sounds great but in reality, it is utterly flawed and is costing us a fortune for little return.

ei.sdraob

dlofnep wrote: »

It will come from a progressive tax system. One that will actually benefit the citizens of Ireland. Unlike the current NAMA robbery.

1. as you know well I don't agree with NAMA or giving money to Anglo, so dont give me that speech

2. our current tax system is not "progressive" enough?
* half of the work force are out of taxnet altogether
* 67% pay less than 10% of taxes!
* 14% tax paid by worker on median income!! as compared to 20% rest of EU


Yeh i forgot your the crowd who want to drive away all (remaining) business from Ireland by jacking up the company taxes :rolleyes:

CoalBucket

dlofnep wrote: »

Why should they have to move out of their home for a year prior to starting college? Wouldn't it make much more sense to be judged based on what your current circumstances were - rather than your circumstances a year prior to application?

Ok having watched this go back and forth between a few posters the crux of your arguement seems to be that you think you should not be assessed on their circumstances of the previous year when it comes to gaining a grant.

If you are living with your parents a year prior to enrolling in college, the idea is that you should be attempting to work and save to sustain you in college the following year. And If needs be supplement this with part-time work whilst in college.

Not prying into your personal details but I can only assume that a year living with your parents would allow you to have some expendable income.

Hypothetically if I was working last and earned €100,000 and now find myself unemployed do you think that should qualify me for a grant ?

danman

I was about to make the same point coalbucket.

If I was in a job for the past few years, earning money and living with Mammy and Daddy, but I pished it all up against a wall.
Then I loose my job.

Should I just walk into education with the government paying a grant?

Or perhaps I should have saved the money to go to collage.

As far as not being able to move out, every situation is different, but there is a very good welfare system in this country. Including rent allowance.
If that is a requirement to gaining a grant and I was unemployed, I would make the effort.

But then again, that's me.

Permabear

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Sleepy

dlofnep wrote: »

Why should they have to move out of their home for a year prior to starting college? Wouldn't it make much more sense to be judged based on what your current circumstances were - rather than your circumstances a year prior to application?

I am not in a position to move out of home, I could not afford it.

So you expect to be income tested as not being dependent upon your parents income but to still be allowed to live with them? I think you're missing the point of the 'mature' student grant i.e. it's for those who aren't still dependent on mammy and daddy.

So let me get this straight - You are advocating that someone go on unemployment benefit for a year, delaying their education - rather than receiving state support and entering education? This is your alternative?

I never advocated it, merely pointed out that you were talking nonsense. Anyone who has a Leaving Cert can access third level education in this country. It's a *very* far from perfect system but your claim that access to education isn't there is also *very* far from the truth.

dlofnep

RichardAnd wrote: »

Improving the grant system is one thing but how? Where is the money to send these people to college going to come from? How should they be assessed and just who would actually do this assessment? Where would the cut off point be for offering aid to poor students be? Any, most importantly of all, how would such an act benefit Ireland as a whole?

I think that those who go to college for the social life, should be forced to pay fees if they drop out (unless exceptional circumstances arise, ie: family death, birth of child, etc.)

This would in turn mean that more funds are available for those who are actually willing to put in the hard work, and see college through.

dlofnep

Sleepy wrote: »

So you expect to be income tested as not being dependent upon your parents income but to still be allowed to live with them? I think you're missing the point of the 'mature' student grant i.e. it's for those who aren't still dependent on mammy and daddy.

But the point is - they are not dependent on their parents. When they are in college, they would not be living with their parents. And just because they live with their parents, does not mean that they are dependent on them.

For example - I don't receive a dime from my parents. I pay them every week towards rent, food and electricity. There are thousands of students in the exact same circumstances - so please, explain to me how the income of their parents should affect their ability to get a grant?

Sleepy wrote: »

I never advocated it, merely pointed out that you were talking nonsense. Anyone who has a Leaving Cert can access third level education in this country. It's a *very* far from perfect system but your claim that access to education isn't there is also *very* far from the truth.

No, they do not. They do if they can financially afford to do so. I've explained to you a scenario for where a mature student is means tested based on their parents income, despite for semantics purposes - not being dependent on them.

dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

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Or, lack of available funds - as I have been stating for the past few pages, but you have routinely discarded.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Not everyone has the liberty of having their parents to pay their way through college.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Are you living in some utopia? Do you think that everyone grows up with the ability to save? My father lost his job in the 90's, and I went to school with cheese sandwiches - while everyone else in my class had mars bars, coke and crisps. I felt humiliated - but my father did his best to provide for me. IF he was in a position to same for my education, he would have. But he wasn't.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Emigration is a fact of life. it exists in every country. That doesn't mean that there won't be an educated work-force remaining here in Ireland contributing to the economy.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Not in Britain. In Wales, the Welsh language is a compulsory part of their education. God forbid, the state maintain the national language as part of our education - of which the majority of the population is content with.

Head The Wall

dlofnep wrote: »

For example - I don't receive a dime from my parents. I pay them every week towards rent, food and electricity. There are thousands of students in the exact same circumstances - so please, explain to me how the income of their parents should affect their ability to get a grant?

99.9% of cases will not be paying the exact same costs to their parents at home as if they were renting. I for one have never come across it, who would spend the same and not have the freedom of leaving home. I doubt you are paying the exact same either

dlofnep wrote: »

Are you living in some utopia? Do you think that everyone grows up with the ability to save? My father lost his job in the 90's, and I went to school with cheese sandwiches - while everyone else in my class had mars bars, coke and crisps. I felt humiliated - but my father did his best to provide for me. IF he was in a position to same for my education, he would have. But he wasn't.

Health wise you are probably better off on the cheese sandwiches, I had to make do with butter sandwiches in school. I didn't get a grant in college either.

Sleepy

dlofnep wrote: »

But the point is - they are not dependent on their parents. When they are in college, they would not be living with their parents. And just because they live with their parents, does not mean that they are dependent on them.

For example - I don't receive a dime from my parents. I pay them every week towards rent, food and electricity. There are thousands of students in the exact same circumstances - so please, explain to me how the income of their parents should affect their ability to get a grant?

Then you can afford to move out into shared accommodation for a year before qualifying for a mature student grant.

No, they do not. They do if they can financially afford to do so. I've explained to you a scenario for where a mature student is means tested based on their parents income, despite for semantics purposes - not being dependent on them.

They may not have access at the very point in time or in the very location they desire to have it. It's not on a silver platter, but it's there for the taking if you're prepared to jump through a few hoops to get it. i.e. the access is there.

Sleepy

To be fair, I should point out that I don't believe a grant system should depend on parental income.

I'd rather see access to state funded university being based purely on aptitude for and the academic merit of the subject being studied.

dlofnep

Head The Wall wrote: »

Health wise you are probably better off on the cheese sandwiches, I had to make do with butter sandwiches in school. I didn't get a grant in college either.

Being coeliac, it's doubtful.

Idbatterim

Look I have no affiliation to any political party, but one thing that makes me laugh is calling Fianna Fail right wing! We have an unbelievably generous welfare system, very low taxes for those on low wages, free health, education etc etc etc! Should I sell my car, lose my savings etc because some are worse off than me? Is that where we want to go with this equality and fairness bulls**t? The vast majority of people earning over 36,500 if single pay 51% tax!!! When you factor in Paye, Prsi, income levy. Spare me the cr*p! Id say FF are centre, maybe even leaning towards left of centre! Anyone who isnt a socialist or Labor supporter in this country is a big bad bogeyman!

Idbatterim

Another point I would like to add, the poor have bankrupted this country as much as the rich, the only reason we could afford to pay ridiculous welfare rates, have low taxes etc was because of the boom, atleast Nama will hopefully be a once in a lifetime excercise, the E20 billion per annum welfare bill is a yearly expense! Atleast the likes of Sean Fitzpatrick etc have an education and turned up for work, how much of that E20 billion is going down a welfare "black hole" on wasters who since they have popped out of the womb and until they pop back into the grave will cost the state a fortune?

CoalBucket

Idbatterim wrote: »

Another point I would like to add, the poor have bankrupted this country as much as the rich, the only reason we could afford to pay ridiculous welfare rates, have low taxes etc was because of the boom, atleast Nama will hopefully be a once in a lifetime excercise, the E20 billion per annum welfare bill is a yearly expense! Atleast the likes of Sean Fitzpatrick etc have an education and turned up for work, how much of that E20 billion is going down a welfare "black hole" on wasters who since they have popped out of the womb and until they pop back into the grave will cost the state a fortune?

I'm a qualified Engineer who has been employed on a full time basis for 14 years. Last December I was made redundant and had to sign on the dole in order to maintain that my mortgage continued to be paid. I turned up for work everyday and have an education just like your hero Sean Fitzpatrick. Does that make me a waster? There are 435,000 people unemployed in the country, are they all wasters?

Permabear

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Idbatterim

I and other posters of my viewpoint always have to clarify this, I dont in my post, becuase I think its blindingly obvious! Coalbucket, you are obviously not what I am referring to when I go on about the welfare spongers, you got your education and worked 14 hard years, as far as im concered, you welfare rates for atleast 6-9 months should have been linked to your final pay! I believe that if you work / did work (and were laid off through now fault of your own) that your lifestyle should be of a far higher standard than someone who never intends on lifting a finger, except when its to go down to the welfare office to claim god knows how many benefits! I dont think anyone would disagree with my opinion on that!

CoalBucket

@ Idbatterim

To be honest it looked like a fairly sweeping statement to me, however I appreciate the clarification.

Btw I got a new Job today so the 4 month signing on period is over

danman

CoalBucket wrote: »

@ Idbatterim

To be honest it looked like a fairly sweeping statement to me, however I appreciate the clarification.

Btw I got a new Job today so the 4 month signing on period is over

Congratulations, nice to hear a positive every once in a while.

dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

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Why should a parent be financially responsible for their children beyond the age of 18? There are enough strains on parents as it is.

donegalfella wrote: »

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It's moot. My point was that my family was not in a position to save for my future, nor would I place the onus on my parents to pay for my education at the age of 27.

donegalfella wrote: »

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I payed my way through college. I do not receive a grant, and have worked since I have been 15. My own personal qualm was with having to move to Dublin to further my college education, but that my grant application was based on my parent's income, which is nonsensical.

donegalfella wrote: »

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No, I don't. If you wish to learn a language, you can acquire it by living in the said nation. There's only so much you can learn from schools. They can learn the basics from secondary and learn the rest in the host country. Schools refuse to focus on language as a spoken subject, and until they do - students will never attain anything other than a basic foundation of them. Which is why I have become semi-fluent in Irish in less than three years, by speaking it - and couldn't string a basic sentence together after 13/14 years in school.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Nonsense. There is nothing fascist about it. There is a mandate from the public to keep it as part of our curriculum. When we see a mandate from the public to make it optional - then it will be so. On a personal level - I'm not opposed to it being optional for the leaving cert. But I believe your views go beyond that - with making it completely optional all through school.

In any case, this thread is not about the Irish language - and any such discussions on it between us will revolve in circles and we have no common ground to meet on, regarding the issue. I believe there is an onus on the Government to protect the language by revamping the curriculum and ensuring Irish remains a core subject in schools. You don't. There's nothing else to be said in fairness. But the language has a mandate, and until that ceases to exist - attempts to remove it as a core subject are fascist.

Liam Byrne

Idbatterim wrote: »

Atleast the likes of Sean Fitzpatrick etc.......turned up for work

How much better off would we have been if they hadn't, I wonder ?

About €22 billion and counting at the last statement. :mad: