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FAS apprentices overpaid!!
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Mickeyk,
A few points:
While FAS may be pissing away money in other parts of its operations, this part is not really part of that.
A large portion of FAS's budget is for paying apprentices/trainees/people on the dole doing courses etc.
This format of payment for apprentices has ALWAYs been in place and wasn't just set up by FAS. A number of government departments are responsible for this and the negotian and agreement of such rates.
These rates have been hit by the reductions and taxes that other rates have been hit by also and a large portion of the apprentices time is actually taken up with on the job training. The salary for the apprentice is on a phased basis getting higher per year as they get more qualified. I believe the employer also pays a portion of this.
The apprenticeship system is in need of an overhaul but everyone has a choice of what to do when the leave school, a few years ago apprenticeship looked very enticing.....payment from the get go, albeit low, rises for 4 years and at the end of the a guarenteed job with excellent pay. Not such a good idea now though is it, most of those guys on the dole.
College students dont actually WORK for anyone during their spell in college unless they do work experience. The majority of these student get free college places and some get some form of grant/subsidy. Most of them are probably in better positions go get jobs now than the apprentices.
If you have a problem with the apprenticeship system and payments towards it, its something that shouldnt just be hammered against FAS, there are many cooks involved in that one, FAS just handle the payments that were agreed by all parties.
I dont particularily like subsidising anyone who goes to college/has fun/more drinking time than me however I was subsidised my self. Such is life.
EDIT: There are a hell of a lot less apprentices in the system in the past 2 years anyway, almost a 75-80% cut. Also, I do agree, that to make things fairer, student should be given a certain weekly payment for attending (actually attending college) as they are better there than on the dole but I suppose this is built into the "free education" mantra and grant schemes.0 -
@ kippy some good and fair points made, in agreement with most of it and I have no real problem with the apprenticeship scheme, or the gov contributing to the scheme, indeed the Gov paid my college fees for 5 of 6 years and I am very grateful for the fact, unlike many others. The thread was about trainees being paid 500+ while attending mandatory training at FAS centres, I believe this to be excessive, they are not actually working during this time they are training, and they know what they are signing up for when they take up an apprenticeship. I suppose some of my posts went a bit far, but I was replying to a total moron who chose to attack me personally rather than my post.0
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@ kippy some good and fair points made, in agreement with most of it and I have no real problem with the apprenticeship scheme, or the gov contributing to the scheme, indeed the Gov paid my college fees for 5 of 6 years and I am very grateful for the fact, unlike many others. The thread was about trainees being paid 500+ while attending mandatory training at FAS centres, I believe this to be excessive, they are not actually working during this time they are training, and they know what they are signing up for when they take up an apprenticeship. I suppose some of my posts went a bit far, but I was replying to a total moron who chose to attack me personally rather than my post.
Indeed, one should ask why they get that payment while in training also, but thats something has been negotiated by the department of finance/trade and employment/FAS and the apprentices representative body, possibly SIPTU or the CIF. The apprentices themselves have no input into this, nor do FAS all things being told.
Again, I would state that anyone knows that this is the deal and if in your position and circumstances you believe this to be the best thing for you to do you should go ahead and do it.......if you believe college for you thats what you should do......
As I said, apprenticship is up in the air right now with extremely limited and heavily oversubscribed job choices. (I realise this is the same for a lot of professions)
I've done training courses before and my employer has paid me, I wouldnt expect not to be paid for it to be honest once I have an employer. It wouldnt matter to me if the money came direct from FAS or via FAS from my employer.
Swings and roundabouts etc......0 -
Good points Kippy! I dont think anyone is attacking the apprentices themselves. They're getting paid, they are not going to refuse it because who would?
It is the system that is wrong. Most college students are not on grants and those who are get a max of about €100 a week and need to use up to all of this for rent! Those who aren't on a grant like myself am lucky enough to have my rent paid by my parents and I get €50 to live on a week! I'm very greatful for that because its my education, its my future.
When I hear about the hard work they do, I don't dispute it but it is no harder than the work your average engineering or biomedical or any other student for that matter has to do.
The simple point is, the system is all wrong, I live with 2 apprentices myself at the mo and they agree. While they are getting educated for free they should get what they need to survive i.e. rent and living, no more than €200 a week.
Ultimately apprentices are no different to students, we are all being trained to get a skilled qualification. We should be treated equally.
And whoever said FAS are more likely to end up on the dole after being qualified than students ... I'm studying civil engineering!0 -
Absolutely agree on career choice, i could have become an apprentice and received the 500 while training myself, I am very glad that I didn't, and being broke for six years did me no real harm, I hope my future earnings will vindicate the decision I made. That does not mean I am not entitled to an opinion, and IMO the 500 is excessive for trainees especially nowadays, hardly surprising that people are defending it, some people in this country seem to believe the state should do everything but wipe their arsé for them.Indeed, one should ask why they get that payment while in training also, but thats something has been negotiated by the department of finance/trade and employment/FAS and the apprentices representative body, possibly SIPTU or the CIF. The apprentices themselves have no input into this, nor do FAS all things being told.
Again, I would state that anyone knows that this is the deal and if in your position and circumstances you believe this to be the best thing for you to do you should go ahead and do it.......if you believe college for you thats what you should do......
As I said, apprenticship is up in the air right now with extremely limited and heavily oversubscribed job choices. (I realise this is the same for a lot of professions)
I've done training courses before and my employer has paid me, I wouldnt expect not to be paid for it to be honest once I have an employer. It wouldnt matter to me if the money came direct from FAS or via FAS from my employer.
Swings and roundabouts etc......0 -
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you say receive 500 euro while training, in the first phase of fas training apprentices receive 250 euro a week!its only in the 4th year of the apprenticeship that they receive 550 euro a week, equal to the amount an employer is required to pay them. i can guarantee you that if you add up the amount an apprentice makes while in the 3 phases of fas and subtract the tax paid in this period, it is far less than the sum the government paid for me to do my 3 year undergraduate degree. and i can guarantee any apprentice electrician coming out after a 4 year apprenticeship did a lot more hard work in the 4 years than i did in getting my degree.0
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You're opinion is very "one sided" to be honest.Absolutely agree on career choice, i could have become an apprentice and received the 500 while training myself, I am very glad that I didn't, and being broke for six years did me no real harm, I hope my future earnings will vindicate the decision I made. That does not mean I am not entitled to an opinion, and IMO the 500 is excessive for trainees especially nowadays, hardly surprising that people are defending it, some people in this country seem to believe the state should do everything but wipe their arsé for them.
See post above for more detail.0 -
Those of you who are directly personalising the discussion and making remarks about your fellow forum members are requested to stop.
The Politics forum charter is clear that this sort of behaviour isn't allowed. I don't have a problem issuing temporary bans if it continues.
/mod0 -
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This was the case when I was in college also, I lived with a guy who was doing an apprenticeship in the FAS training centre, he was getting over 500 a week (2002), I was astounded, he was on the p**s all the time .Nice to know our 1bn a year FAS spend is being put to good use.
First of all it is not college in the sense of your college ,its a "training centre", you say he was living with you his wage then would of included a travel or lodge supplement.
Since when have college students been afraid to go out and drink. Never, they drink more than fas students if you look at the amount of time either spends in education.
I got paid 220 for 6 months 400 for 3 months and 600 for 3 months
I worked for less than minimum wage for few years so ive no problem taking fas money if its given. Its not as sweet as roses look at the building industry now.I thought alot of students get money from mammy or daddy0 -
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First of all it is not college in the sense of your college ,its a "training centre", you say he was living with you his wage then would of included a travel or lodge supplement.
Since when have college students been afraid to go out and drink. Never, they drink more than fas students if you look at the amount of time either spends in education.
I got paid 220 for 6 months 400 for 3 months and 600 for 3 months
I worked for less than minimum wage for few years so ive no problem taking fas money if its given. Its not as sweet as roses look at the building industry now.I thought alot of students get money from mammy or daddy
In fairness to mammy and daddy, a lot of FAS apprentices get extra money from them as well and probably would have to hit mammy and daddy more if there income wasnt so decent in the training centers.0 -
The sense of entitlement in your post is truly astounding, you had to put in a few hard years on low pay, thats life my friend, if you want something worthwhile, it normally takes effort and sacrafice, but yet you expect to be subsidised by the taxpayer for your trouble. Not every college student gets money from mammy and daddy btw, some work part time at evenings and weekends to get by. As for your point about the building trade and job prospects, that is completely irrelevant to any point I have made here.First of all it is not college in the sense of your college ,its a "training centre", you say he was living with you his wage then would of included a travel or lodge supplement.
Since when have college students been afraid to go out and drink. Never, they drink more than fas students if you look at the amount of time either spends in education.
I got paid 220 for 6 months 400 for 3 months and 600 for 3 months
I worked for less than minimum wage for few years so ive no problem taking fas money if its given. Its not as sweet as roses look at the building industry now.I thought alot of students get money from mammy or daddy0 -
It's on the job training, so you get paid what you were weather you are learning on a site or in a class room. It's 4 years minimum time served for training and thats how it works in this country and has done for years. All trades run through FAS are like this. It's just electricians are the highest paid because of the higher risk factory involved with the practical side of the work.
The army pays you while you are training and they pay their officers to go and get college degrees. I was in college with young 3 serving officers all about 23 and they were getting their full pay for the 3 years in college and all college fees paid. So I know how it feels having been in college and having served my apprenticeship. That how the system is. Thats what you sign up for. Going to college off your own bat to get your own degree with no pay is your own choice. If you want to get paid for training to get a qualification get a trade, join the army or get a company to take you on that is willing to pay for a relevant degree for you.0 -
The sense of entitlement in your post is truly astounding, you had to put in a few hard years on low pay, thats life my friend, if you want something worthwhile, it normally takes effort and sacrafice, but yet you expect to be subsidised by the taxpayer for your trouble. Not every college student gets money from mammy and daddy btw, some work part time at evenings and weekends to get by. As for your point about the building trade and job prospects, that is completely irrelevant to any point I have made here.
I feel no entitlement.I applied for college course after i was let go.I would of been worse off than most college students had i been accepted ( thats a different story) .
I paid and completed extra non compulsory night courses during my apprenticeship.Most students dont have the financial needs of a young person going into a work or fas tools, etc. Fair enough it might seem a tad high but
thats life. The fas wages might of been raised to that level to entice people to trades.
Maybe its not worth it to get paid nothing after working for minimum wage.Why dont some of the so called professionals do a year in the boots of a "craftsman" and see is it the same as falling into college friday morn after a night out in town sneaking nagins in the clubs0 -
Rent, food, books, stationary, photocopying & printing, laptop etc are not financial needs?I feel no entitlement.I applied for college course after i was let go.I would of been worse off than most college students had i been accepted ( thats a different story) .
I paid and completed extra non compulsory night courses during my apprenticeship.Most students dont have the financial needs of a young person going into a work or fas tools, etc. Fair enough it might seem a tad high but
thats life. The fas wages might of been raised to that level to entice people to trades.
Maybe its not worth it to get paid nothing after working for minimum wage.Why dont some of the so called professionals do a year in the boots of a "craftsman" and see is it the same as falling into college friday morn after a night out in town sneaking nagins in the clubs
Not trying to argue with you, but your put down of college students is a bit of a stereotype and unfair, getting a good degree takes work, just not manual or physically intensive work, I'm not saying I didn't have nights out in college, but I certainly scaled it back considerably in my final year, and practically didn't go out at all when doing a masters. I also worked part-time all throghout my education as my parents were not in a position to help out much. Sorry to hear you got let go and fair play to you for making the extra effort to gain more skills.0 -
Rent, food, books, stationary, photocopying & printing, laptop etc are not financial needs?
Not trying to argue with you, but your put down of college students is a bit of a stereotype and unfair, getting a good degree takes work, just not manual or physically intensive work, I'm not saying I didn't have nights out in college, but I certainly scaled it back considerably in my final year, and practically didn't go out at all when doing a masters. I also worked part-time all throghout my education as my parents were not in a position to help out much. Sorry to hear you got let go and fair play to you for making the extra effort to gain more skills.
I'm not getting odd either but apprents get stick from students too ( usually behind their back or on the jax wall).Trades aren't as easy as some think. some coast through and dont come for knowledge but for pay but it is accepted and no one really gave out about it before. I could of gone to college but picked a trade.
It wouldn't really work as well if the pay wasn't much i think.I dont mind since im finished with it and dont know anyone in there but thats my view from being in the system0 -
Captain Chaos wrote: »It's on the job training, so you get paid what you were weather you are learning on a site or in a class room. It's 4 years minimum time served for training and thats how it works in this country and has done for years. All trades run through FAS are like this. It's just electricians are the highest paid because of the higher risk factory involved with the practical side of the work.
The army pays you while you are training and they pay their officers to go and get college degrees. I was in college with young 3 serving officers all about 23 and they were getting their full pay for the 3 years in college and all college fees paid. So I know how it feels having been in college and having served my apprenticeship. That how the system is. Thats what you sign up for. Going to college off your own bat to get your own degree with no pay is your own choice. If you want to get paid for training to get a qualification get a trade, join the army or get a company to take you on that is willing to pay for a relevant degree for you.
I don't agree with the 'thats what you sign up for arguement.' Generally a guy who goes at a trade doe's it because thats what he's good at and for no other reason and a guy who goes to college does it because he's more geared towards that. No one looks at how much can they get whilst there, apart from possibly the odd scrounger who gets by on welfare by choice and no by neccessity.
I saw an earlier post where some guy was giving out that first year apprentices only get €250 a week!!
There is an attitude by a lot of people in Ireland today that they are owed something or they are getting short changed by the government.
And don't say your course is expensive, it costs €1500/year for a student to register for college. What kind of tools are ye buying that costs that much?
If they changed the system, people would deal with it and there would be no shortage of apprentices. End of.0 -
I don't agree with the 'thats what you sign up for arguement.' Generally a guy who goes at a trade doe's it because thats what he's good at and for no other reason and a guy who goes to college does it because he's more geared towards that. No one looks at how much can they get whilst there, apart from possibly the odd scrounger who gets by on welfare by choice and no by neccessity.
I saw an earlier post where some guy was giving out that first year apprentices only get €250 a week!!
There is an attitude by a lot of people in Ireland today that they are owed something or they are getting short changed by the government.
And don't say your course is expensive, it costs €1500/year for a student to register for college. What kind of tools are ye buying that costs that much?
If they changed the system, people would deal with it and there would be no shortage of apprentices. End of.
Why do ya have something against people who go out and try to get a job i.e a trade. If they stayed at home on the dole you would be giving out about that. It is just a part of the job in Ireland thats all. Would you hand the money back if it was you?.
No one is meant to work below the minimum wage in a perfect world, i think it props it up really remember for the first two years at least is below minimum wage.Do you see apprents on here giving out about that, no they accept the good with the bad like every other tradesman i know0 -
Why do ya have something against people who go out and try to get a job i.e a trade. If they stayed at home on the dole you would be giving out about that. It is just a part of the job in Ireland thats all. Would you hand the money back if it was you?.
No one is meant to work below the minimum wage in a perfect world, i think it props it up really remember for the first two years at least is below minimum wage.Do you see apprents on here giving out about that, no they accept the good with the bad like every other tradesman i know
I think you're missing the point. I have nothing against FAS students and of course I would take the money if I was them, who wouldn't? The point of the thread is to state that it is the system that is all wrong. I'm surprised at the negative reaction by people on this thread because most of the guys I know in FAS agree that the system is wrong and that if cuts are being made to public spending surely this is an obvious place to go.
I don't see time spent learning a trade as part of work, it is training for work just like every full time college student is doing, by your argument they should all be on minimum wage too?0 -
I think you're missing the point. I have nothing against FAS students and of course I would take the money if I was them, who wouldn't? The point of the thread is to state that it is the system that is all wrong. I'm surprised at the negative reaction by people on this thread because most of the guys I know in FAS agree that the system is wrong and that if cuts are being made to public spending surely this is an obvious place to go.
I don't see time spent learning a trade as part of work, it is training for work just like every full time college student is doing, by your argument they should all be on minimum wage too?
All my point is,is that as an apprentice you are in the workforce. This means you must be paid for your services. Fas are taking apprentices in for training to better our workforce and are paying since these people are employed and would not go to work for nought. I'm sure you would want your plumber chippy or spark to be trained to a regulated and equal standard and guess what these big and small local and multi national companies cant do this.
I understand why people think its a bit high but its the way the boom rates were. You cant class college students in the same group cause apps aren't real students, they just use local colleges and universities campus facilities. An apprenticeship is not classed as the same level as a degree so you cannot have direct comparison of the attendees0 -
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Good heavens - when are the people in this country going to learn to stand on their own two feet! Grow up guys - the state does not owe you a living! Get a life and stop waiting to be subsidised for everything - we are increasingly becoming a self perpetuating welfare mentality nation! Doesn't anyone have any motivation any more unless the state is paying??0
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Good heavens - when are the people in this country going to learn to stand on their own two feet! Grow up guys - the state does not owe you a living! Get a life and stop waiting to be subsidised for everything - we are increasingly becoming a self perpetuating welfare mentality nation! Doesn't anyone have any motivation any more unless the state is paying??
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:0 -
And don't say your course is expensive, it costs €1500/year for a student to register for college. What kind of tools are ye buying that costs that much?
If you where a tradesman you'd see easily the cost of buying quality tools,drills work gear etc surpass that.0 -
Tools are expensive.
There's a level of complete ignorance here on both sides of this argument. Fair enough, I did not do an apprenticeship. However I did do 4 years in college, and a number of years on a site, so I've seen both sides of the fence.
In recent years, a lot of young lads went into apprenticeships because it was instant money. Prior to the boom, a lot of these lads would probably have emigrated, or gone and worked in Tescos/distribution warehouses and the like. Due to the fact that trades made excellent money, a lot more young lads were attracted to that, particularly ones that might have been a bit lazy and couldn't be bothered trying in school (and yes, that sounds ridiculous but it's true).College is delaying gratification (ie money). A lot of lads come from backgrounds where that just isn't done - money is needed, so you don't delay your job by 4 years, in order to get a better paying one, you just go and get a job that pays as quickly as possible.And apprenticeships offered that for a lot of them, with the prospect of huge money at the end.
Yes we definitely got to the stage where we paid apprentices too much.The unions naturally, played a hand in that.We have less apprentices now, but the money is still quite high.
The point is that many of these guys come from totally different backgrounds.What they are being paid is according to a deal between the unions and FAS.They definitely should be paid something - they'd have to be to cover expenses.There's no point in comparing it to college, there's just no comparison.The 2 are totally different.0 -
when an aprentice goes to a college like GMIT WIT or DIT there are being trained as part of there job. the same way a computer technician gets payed when he is being thought new technology,the same as a mechanic gets paid on new car update training coarses. alot of those apprentices would only come out with 550e is they are getting travel allowances /accommodation allowance and food allowance while being in phase 6(final year) after getting only 195 a week for the first year and 295 for the second year.
im in DIT currently on phase 4 and only came out with 328 with adjustments from which iv to take transport fees(luas,diesel insurance,dont forget were in the highest insurance bracket) then theres food ,college supply's and fees to come out of that, and because were trades people you need tool's and 90% of employers wont pay for that0 -
Ah FÁS, does anything surprise you?0
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when an aprentice goes to a college like GMIT WIT or DIT there are being trained as part of there job. the same way a computer technician gets payed when he is being thought new technology,the same as a mechanic gets paid on new car update training coarses. alot of those apprentices would only come out with 550e is they are getting travel allowances /accommodation allowance and food allowance while being in phase 6(final year) after getting only 195 a week for the first year and 295 for the second year.
im in DIT currently on phase 4 and only came out with 328 with adjustments from which iv to take transport fees(luas,diesel insurance,dont forget were in the highest insurance bracket) then theres food ,college supply's and fees to come out of that, and because were trades people you need tool's and 90% of employers wont pay for that
Everything you said is spot on. Did a trade myself albeit many years ago. (Toolmaker). I doubt if things have changed much but in my day FAS would only pay the apprentices 1st year allowances and this was only if his employer/sponsor was too tight to pay the apprentice himself. The employer would then pay the meagre wages of the apprentice for the remaining 3 years while availing of the cheap labour 4 days a week while the apprentice attended tech 1 day a week. After 4 years more often than not you would be let go as the bosses usually didn't want to pay the going rate in wages.
Tradesmen shouldn't have to defend themselves to students who haven't even started work yet. Your taxes are going towards their grants and free fees. Fecking ingrates!;)0 -
My friend is doing a 'sparks' course in FÁS at the moment and is getting something like €400/500 a week...he himself thinks it's ridiculous when you consider I'm doing a course who's registration has jumped every year, three years running. The most he says he has to pay for is only transport costs!
And we wonder why this country is in debt? Completely unjustified payment in my eyes.0 -
erictheviking1 wrote: »Tradesmen shouldn't have to defend themselves to students who haven't even started work yet. Your taxes are going towards their grants and free fees. Fecking ingrates!;)
Excuse me, could you please inform us of what you paid to receive your training from FAS. Maybe your lecturers salaries and the use of the facilities just fell out of the sky. The same as the allowance and expenses you received while attending0 -
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erictheviking1 wrote: »Everything you said is spot on. Did a trade myself albeit many years ago. (Toolmaker). I doubt if things have changed much but in my day FAS would only pay the apprentices 1st year allowances and this was only if his employer/sponsor was too tight to pay the apprentice himself. The employer would then pay the meagre wages of the apprentice for the remaining 3 years while availing of the cheap labour 4 days a week while the apprentice attended tech 1 day a week. After 4 years more often than not you would be let go as the bosses usually didn't want to pay the going rate in wages.
Tradesmen shouldn't have to defend themselves to students who haven't even started work yet. Your taxes are going towards their grants and free fees. Fecking ingrates!;)
i agree with what your saying about employers ditching apprentices after 4 years, i dont think ill even see 4 years,boss has a history of going through us,were disposable to them,just a source of cheap labor at the end of the day0
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